Property At Auction - Be Careful

15-02-2020 10:59am

I had an interest in purchasing a property at Allsops auction which is now replaced by BidX1.
Paperwork was very sparse and the solicitor for the seller refused to provide additional information...information that it was reasonable to expect be provided and normally easy to provide.
I didn't bid.

If you are buying for cash and it is a small sum then Auction might still work as you can live with the poor title and just get the value of the property out of living in it without worrying about the saleability of it afterward.

The best you can hope for is that the house doesn't attract bids and then approach whomever is selling it afterward giving time to iron out the paperwork.

Marcusm · 15-02-2020 7:40pm

Ray Palmer wrote: »

That's news to me and my family have been buying houses for 60 years. The only property ever for auction was extremely dilapidated properties and those with other legal issues.

Dublin and other Irish cities (Galway and Donnellan Joyce for example) widely used auctions in 1995-2006 for desirable houses attracting much interest as it secured the best prices. Not just dilapidated jobs but well finished family homes.

chicorytip · 15-02-2020 11:23pm

mloc123 wrote: »

I thought with any auction, it was up to the buyer to do their due diligence beforehand?

The buyer in this particular instance should pursue the seller to have his full deposit returned. All this talk of "binding contracts" is just guff. The seller is the one in clear breach of contract here.

dubrov · 15-02-2020 11:29pm

chicorytip wrote:

The buyer in this particular instance should pursue the seller to have his full deposit returned. All this talk of "binding contracts" is just guff. The seller is the one in clear breach of contract here.

Have you seen the contract or even any auction contract? I doubt it

Dav010 · 16-02-2020 8:36am

chicorytip wrote: »

The buyer in this particular instance should pursue the seller to have his full deposit returned. All this talk of "binding contracts" is just guff. The seller is the one in clear breach of contract here.

Do you know the difference between buying at auction and a conventional sale? They are two very, very different processes. The op is having trouble getting a mortgage, but finance would not be an issue for a cash buyer, that is the problem, not the sellers, and it would not be an issue at all if the op had checked out the title before bidding.

When your bid is accepted at auction and the hammer drops, a contract is formed and signed on the day of the auction by the bidder, that is the reality of property auctions. Which part of that well established and legally binding contract is “guff” in your opinion?

https://www.ebs.ie/blog/2014/12/beginners-guide-to-buying-at-auction

https://www.gibsonandassociates.ie/how-to-buy-auction-property-in-ireland/

Sleepy · 17-02-2020 3:35pm

Surely if title can't be proven, the vendor can't prove that they have the legal right to enter any contract that's dependent on their ownership of the asset being sold thus breaching that contract?

Marcusm · 17-02-2020 5:21pm

Sleepy wrote: »

Surely if title can't be proven, the vendor can't prove that they have the legal right to enter any contract that's dependent on their ownership of the asset being sold thus breaching that contract?

All of the proofs of title (however limited) are provided in the legal pack before the auction. This is why it is up to a bidder to have a solicitor check the title before the auction. Misrepresentation of title might allow it to be set aside but not a defective title which is adequately disclosed.

chicorytip · 17-02-2020 6:19pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Do you know the difference between buying at auction and a conventional sale? They are two very, very different processes. The op is having trouble getting a mortgage, but finance would not be an issue for a cash buyer, that is the problem, not the sellers, and it would not be an issue at all if the op had checked out the title before bidding.

When your bid is accepted at auction and the hammer drops, a contract is formed and signed on the day of the auction by the bidder, that is the reality of property auctions. Which part of that well established and legally binding contract is “guff” in your opinion?

https://www.ebs.ie/blog/2014/12/beginners-guide-to-buying-at-auction

https://www.gibsonandassociates.ie/how-to-buy-auction-property-in-ireland/

So, if the bidder in this instance had sufficient funding in place - either in cash or borrowings - and the sale was completed, the seller could just walk away with the money!! This seems plain daft. I think there ought to be a legal requirement on these auction houses to ensure all matters relating to ownership are fully established and which would prevent them from advertising these properties in the first place.

Dav010 · 17-02-2020 6:43pm

chicorytip wrote: »

So, if the bidder in this instance had sufficient funding in place - either in cash or borrowings - and the sale was completed, the seller could just walk away with the money!! This seems plain daft. I think there ought to be a legal requirement on these auction houses to ensure all matters relating to ownership are fully established and which would prevent them from advertising these properties in the first place.

If the sale proceeds to completion, of course the seller keeps the money. Property purchases are not covered by consumer law because you have the benefit of both a survey and legal advice before you buy. The auction legal pack contains info about title and it is up to the buyer to get a Solicitor pre-auction report (SPAR) before buying. If you do not get that, then it is caveat emptor.

Claw Hammer · 18-02-2020 6:03pm

Sidney77 wrote: »

I did have a survey done beforehand and it ensured the building was sound. Just a but of upgrading needed. I saw a property for sale as was (and still is ) advertised and made an offer.

Bank had approved the mortgage for this property. Solicitor advised that the legal paperwork couldnt be done (and the mortgage funds couldnt be released without it) but there are solicitors who could do it but it takes time and is expensive.

The 70 year lease wasnt the only problem. One thing the title mentioned was that they didnt know who owned the building or land that its built on. Nothing like that was transparent when i made an offer.

Bidx1 have all of the legal documents for the property on-line before the auction.
You should have downloaded them and checked them before bidding. All of your issues would have come to light had you done so. What you did was like buying a second hand car based on a google maps view. You are lucky to be gattig half the deposit back.

Bigus · 18-02-2020 7:11pm

Dav010 wrote: »

What has GDPR got to do with the scenario you describe? Was your bid accepted at auction?

The solicitor felt that GDPR rules were going to stop her making a work around the unavailability of the PPS number as she had done previously, and couldn’t consequently register the title correctly according to today’s rules. perhaps she had some way previously of acquiring PPS number covertly regarding titles, and this Avenue was now closed off due to tightening of GDPR regs , I don’t know.

18-02-2020 7:55pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

Bidx1 have all of the legal documents for the property on-line before the auction.
You should have downloaded them and checked them before bidding. All of your issues would have come to light had you done so. What you did was like buying a second hand car based on a google maps view. You are lucky to be gattig half the deposit back.

"All"? Not my experience of Allsop. Are you saying they have improved since the rebrand?

Dav010 · 18-02-2020 9:38pm

Bigus wrote: »

The solicitor felt that GDPR rules were going to stop her making a work around the unavailability of the PPS number as she had done previously, and couldn’t consequently register the title correctly according to today’s rules. perhaps she had some way previously of acquiring PPS number covertly regarding titles, and this Avenue was now closed off due to tightening of GDPR regs , I don’t know.

That makes absolutely no sense. If your bid was accepted, GDPR would not apply as the seller would have instructed the auction house and provided that detail to them in order to sell the property.

What did the auction house say when you requested the sellers details after bid was accepted? The sellers details would be on the contract you signed at the auction, your story is a bit off.

Bigus · 19-02-2020 12:18am

Dav010 wrote: »

That makes absolutely no sense. If your bid was accepted, GDPR would not apply as the seller would have instructed the auction house and provided that detail to them in order to sell the property.

What did the auction house say when you requested the sellers details after bid was accepted? The sellers details would be on the contract you signed at the auction, your story is a bit off.

It was a receiver sale, so the seller couldn’t provide PPS number as requested, you have misinterpreted the info I’ve disclosed , hence why you think the story’s “ a bit off “ .

Marcusm · 19-02-2020 1:00am

Bigus wrote: »

It was a receiver sale, so the seller couldn’t provide PPS number as requested, you have misinterpreted the info I’ve disclosed , hence why you think the story’s “ a bit off “ .

The receiver on appointment should have obtained a new PPS number in its capacity as agent for the recalcitrant owner and utilised that for the sale (as it was the agent for the owner).

Blub123 · 19-02-2020 1:06am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

"All"? Not my experience of Allsop. Are you saying they have improved since the rebrand?

I've had an experience here with a property where my solicitor advised not to proceed.
They do put legal docs up before the sale. The prudent thing to do would be to have your solicitor examine same for completeness before proceeding with a bid.

johnnyskeleton · 19-02-2020 9:12am

chicorytip wrote: »

So, if the bidder in this instance had sufficient funding in place - either in cash or borrowings - and the sale was completed, the seller could just walk away with the money!! This seems plain daft. I think there ought to be a legal requirement on these auction houses to ensure all matters relating to ownership are fully established and which would prevent them from advertising these properties in the first place.

In an ideal world, reputable auction houses would commission a solicitors opinion and surveyors report prior to auction and make it available to all. Then the fees are paid by the purchaser on successful sale. A paranoid purchaser can always hire their own independent professionals just in case.

But we dont get to live in an ideal world and Irish people are sufficiently happy with the situation as it stands that there is no real desire for change

Claw Hammer · 19-02-2020 4:01pm

Deleted User wrote: »

"All"? Not my experience of Allsop. Are you saying they have improved since the rebrand?

They put all the documents they have up. If you think there are other documents necessary to make title, then don't proceed.

Bigus · 19-02-2020 7:14pm

Marcusm wrote: »

The receiver on appointment should have obtained a new PPS number in its capacity as agent for the recalcitrant owner and utilised that for the sale (as it was the agent for the owner).

Unfortunately, in this country, there seems to be no bar set for the quality or qualifications of a receiver and unless I’m mistaken, and any gombeen qualifies which is fundamentally wrong in relation to such serious matters and they seem to be answerable to no statutory body.

Claw Hammer · 20-02-2020 1:20pm

Bigus wrote: »

Unfortunately, in this country, there seems to be no bar set for the quality or qualifications of a receiver and unless I’m mistaken, and any gombeen qualifies which is fundamentally wrong in relation to such serious matters and they seem to be answerable to no statutory body.

This has nothing to do with the qualifications of the receiver. He will have instructed a solicitor to guide him in the conveyance.

Bigus · 20-02-2020 11:33pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

This has nothing to do with the qualifications of the receiver. He will have instructed a solicitor to guide him in the conveyance.

If the receiver’s a chancer it has, who do you sue when it goes tits up ? All receivers aren’t equal and this point is a vital part of the due diligence process.

Claw Hammer · 25-02-2020 4:05pm

Bigus wrote: »

If the receiver’s a chancer it has, who do you sue when it goes tits up ? All receivers aren’t equal and this point is a vital part of the due diligence process.

You sue your own solicitor for not spotting the problems with the title. If you are stupid enough to bid on a property without having the title and the contract checked by a solicitor, its tough. There will most likely be no one you can sue successfully. the equality of receivers has nothing to do with the quality of the title offered. All the receiver does is take possession or control of the property and instruct a solicitor to prepare a contract offering whatever title is available and disowning all responsibility on the receiver.

Bigus · 25-02-2020 8:52pm

Claw Hammer wrote: »

If you are stupid enough to bid on a property without having the title and the contract checked by a solicitor, its tough. There will most likely be no one you can sue successfully. the equality of receivers has nothing to do with the quality of the title offered. All the receiver does is take possession or control of the property and instruct a solicitor to prepare a contract offering whatever title is available and disowning all responsibility on the receiver.

Don’t be casting aspersions on me , I don’t bid on properties without checking out titles as stated above.

Dav010 · 25-02-2020 8:58pm

Bigus wrote: »

Don’t be casting aspersions on me , I don’t bid on properties without checking out titles as stated above.

But what you are posting about GDPR, PPS numbers and Receivers just doesn’t make any sense. There would be no GDPR issue with the seller or their agent providing the necessary information to register a Title, the vendor/Receiver would supply a PPS as part of the legal pack/contract and the Receiver’s honesty has little baring on the auction, they just provide what info they have, then it is up to your Solicitor/you.

You don’t sue the Receiver if you end up in the mire after you buy at auction, you talk to your own solicitor and ask how they messed up, or if it’s a structural issue, you ask your surveyor how they missed it, if you didn’t take legal/surveyor advice before bidding, you ask yourself how you messed up.

Bigus · 25-02-2020 11:26pm

Dav010 wrote: »

But what you are posting about GDPR, PPS numbers and Receivers just doesn’t make any sense. There would be no GDPR issue with the seller or their agent providing the necessary information to register a Title, the vendor/Receiver would supply a PPS as part of the legal pack/contract and the Receiver’s honesty has little baring on the auction, they just provide what info they have, then it is up to your Solicitor/you.

You don’t sue the Receiver if you end up in the mire after you buy at auction, you talk to your own solicitor and ask how they messed up, or if it’s a structural issue, you ask your surveyor how they missed it, if you didn’t take legal/surveyor advice before bidding, you ask yourself how you messed up.

I haven’t messed up, and unlike others here I have successfully bought and completed purchases through bidX1, however some here are misinterpreting what I have said with other posters issues.

However on the receiver point , there’s a world of difference dealing with somebody like Ken Tyrell of PWC versus an unqualified uninsured mucker , who’s biggest attribute is pig ignorance.

A wise old time solicitor, once told me that no contract is watertight if you know your dealing with chancers.

Also good luck to those who think they can successfully sue their solicitor here in Ireland and get paid out, that’s la la land thinking. The buck stops with your own judgement.

Dav010 · 26-02-2020 5:34am

Bigus wrote: »

I haven’t messed up, and unlike others here I have successfully bought and completed purchases through bidX1, however some here are misinterpreting what I have said with other posters issues.

However on the receiver point , there’s a world of difference dealing with somebody like Ken Tyrell of PWC versus an unqualified uninsured mucker , who’s biggest attribute is pig ignorance.

A wise old time solicitor, once told me that no contract is watertight if you know your dealing with chancers.

Also good luck to those who think they can successfully sue their solicitor here in Ireland and get paid out, that’s la la land thinking. The buck stops with your own judgement.

Ok Bigus, I’m not sure what point you are trying to make, but it certainly isn’t helping anyone considering buying at auction. Sales by Receivers are fairly common at auction. The Receiver is appointed by the lender who leant the money to the buyer, they are usually accountants and their sole aim at Auction is to sell the property if an acceptable bid is made.. There is absolutely no GDPR issue with the information your solicitor would request, the Receiver is acting for the owner, the Bank, and would have authority to give you information relating to the sale. Why would a bank sell a property at auction, then refuse to give you the info to register the title on GDPR grounds? It’s nonsensical.

It’s up to your solicitor to make the contract watertight, that is why property purchases are not covered by consumer law, you have the benefit of legal representation. Buying at Auction is straightforward in many ways, but there is often a good reason why the property is being sold this way, it is up to you/your solicitor to do your homework, but claiming a purchase was frustrated due to GDPR regs is strange, the seller/Receiver would need to provide the PPS info in the contract of sale. The Receiver is just a paid agent working on behalf of the bank, your contract would be with the person/institution who appointed him/her.

Since October 2019, if you have a complaint against your Solicitor, you can make it to the Legal Services Regulatory Authority.

Claw Hammer · 26-02-2020 4:40pm

Bigus wrote: »

I haven’t messed up, and unlike others here I have successfully bought and completed purchases through bidX1, however some here are misinterpreting what I have said with other posters issues.

However on the receiver point , there’s a world of difference dealing with somebody like Ken Tyrell of PWC versus an unqualified uninsured mucker , who’s biggest attribute is pig ignorance.

A wise old time solicitor, once told me that no contract is watertight if you know your dealing with chancers.

Also good luck to those who think they can successfully sue their solicitor here in Ireland and get paid out, that’s la la land thinking. The buck stops with your own judgement.

If you are buying from a receiver at auction you are dealing with the solicitor appointed by the receiver. Solicitors have been successfully sued in Ireland when the have messed up. If they are not involved and don't do anything they can'y be sued. The fact is if you are buying at auction and it goes tits up you ay not have aybody to sue. you have more rights buying a mouse tap from a shop if it goes wrong that you do against the vendor of the house you intend putting the mousetrap into.
Your claims about buying at auction don't ring true to me. You think you should be able to sue somebody anytime a transaction goes wrong. Receivers have to give conveyancing work to solicitors, by law. Receivers are very unlikely to be qualified in conveyancing and it doesn't matter a damn who they are or what qualifications they have. They are usually appointed by banks who make a commercial decision on who to appoint.

looksee · 26-02-2020 5:00pm

One of the very basic things to do when initially looking at a house for sale is go on to Land Direct, find the property, and just look at the boundaries and whether it is freehold or leasehold. In most cases this is very easy and free to find out and only needs access to a computer, you don't need any legal skills - though having done that you follow up by consulting your solictor.

This is an amazingly efficient service provided by the Land Commission, and I was very surprised to find out you cannot do this in the UK.

aqn29swlgbmiu4 · 26-02-2020 9:00pm

Hi Sydney77, I know the exact property you are referring to. I went to view it about 3 weeks ago as it was up for sale again. I asked the agent at the viewing why it was up for sale again after it had been sold in Nov, and they said the previous buyer couldn't secure a mortgage. I queried later on what did the 71 years on the lease mean and what would happen when it was up and she said to ask my solicitor.

The property went up for auction and didn't sell so it was put up for auction again on the same afternoon and was sold to a single bidder who bid a grand above asking price.

The apt had a lot of potential but it was only when I sat down to think about it that I remembered 3-4 other apartments in the complex going up for sale in the past year.

When I saw this thread I nearly fell through the floor!

Property At Auction - Be Careful

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