General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

ronivek · 25-07-2020 7:14pm

golfball37 wrote: »

One. The new law allows 2 extra. It’s shameful imo. The state the country is in. Not to mention FF opposed it vehemently when Mary Mitchell O’Connor was denied the same top up.

You're incorrect; the law was changed from allowing 2 to claim the allowance to allowing 3 to claim it.

FF opposed it when the allowance would have led to potentially 3 FG Ministers of State receiving it. The current scenario is one Minister of State from each Government Party will receive it; which I would suggest is quite a bit more reasonable.

blackwhite wrote: »

It really shows a stunning level of naivety to think they wouldn’t face a backlash over this.

In the scheme of the public finances it’s not material - but anyone with half a brain should have seen how it would be perceived publicly. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot

Or maybe they determined it was unfair to have two out of three members of Government who performed the same duties being paid differently for the same work? And decided that in spite of the inevitable complaints that it was the right thing to do?

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Part of the problem is that pay rates in general are largely devoid of meanng or any relation to objective metrics. Footballers get paid vastly more than nurses for reasons that have nothing to do with the nature of their work or the reletive effort or skill required.

Its hard to imagine what an objectivly fair system of determining pay rates for public representatives would look like.

I'm not sure anyone anywhere in the world has figured out an 'objectively fair system for determining pay rates' which works in the context of our modern society.

As to the pay rates for civil servants they're freely available and TDs would fit into the higher scales for Principal level civil servants; with members of the cabinet and committees slightly higher.

rgace · 25-07-2020 8:32pm

ronivek wrote: »

FF opposed it when the allowance would have led to potentially 3 FG Ministers of State receiving it. The current scenario is one Minister of State from each Government Party will receive it; which I would suggest is quite a bit more reasonable.

I would suggest that the Ministers of State are either required and worth that salary or they are not.

To suggest it is reasonable now just because they are members of different parties is ridiculous.

blackwhite · 25-07-2020 9:35pm

ronivek wrote: »

Or maybe they determined it was unfair to have two out of three members of Government who performed the same duties being paid differently for the same work? And decided that in spite of the inevitable complaints that it was the right thing to do?

I don’t dispute the “fairness” in terms of ensuring each SJ is treated equally - but on the other hand I’m not convinced on the merits of the super-juniors getting such a top-up to begin with.
Have they done anything to demonstrate that these super-juniors actually do work any harder than the other junior ministers? Other than attending cabinet meetings (but not participating, or taking any legal responsibilities that Cabinet do)?

What has irritated me on this one is that they plowed ahead knowing that they’d be giving the opposition an easy stick to beat them with. There’s an old stereotype of FF only being interest in Govt for themselves - IMO that’s not necessarily fair, but things like this add more ammo to anyone who wants to push that narrative.

The really sickening this is that, in the scheme of Govt spending its an irrelevancy. There’s hundreds of more serious instances of Govt waste that could be pointed at - but those don’t sit as easily with the populist rabble-rousers.
Idiots equating it to nurses pay just show how bad their grasp of numbers is. Maybe we should cut the €16k from all three SJs and split it evenly across all of our 65k registered nurses - I’m sure they’d really appreciate the extra 74c each per year!

ronivek · 25-07-2020 11:41pm

rgace wrote: »

I would suggest that the Ministers of State are either required and worth that salary or they are not.

To suggest it is reasonable now just because they are members of different parties is ridiculous.

I agree with your first point. The fact they are all given the allowance would suggest the cabinet and Government parties agree.

If you can't see that there are significant differences between:
1) Increasing the number of fully remunerated super junior Ministers under a single-party Government with 12/15 cabinet ministers and 15/18 Ministers of State all FG; versus:
2) Increasing the number of fully remunerated super junior Ministers under a three-party coalition Government including FF where each party has designated a single super junior Minister to attend cabinet...
... then I don't know what to tell you.

As to the exact reasons FF changed their mind or voted against the change in 2017 I can only guess; but they were clearly two very different sets of circumstance.

blackwhite wrote: »

I don’t dispute the “fairness” in terms of ensuring each SJ is treated equally - but on the other hand I’m not convinced on the merits of the super-juniors getting such a top-up to begin with.
Have they done anything to demonstrate that these super-juniors actually do work any harder than the other junior ministers? Other than attending cabinet meetings (but not participating, or taking any legal responsibilities that Cabinet do)?

I mean surely they do more work (longer hours, presumably additional or at least different responsibilities) than the other Ministers for State. Assuming that is the case wouldn't they be entitled to extra remuneration when compared to the other Ministers for State?

As to where the precise figure comes from I'm not sure. I'm also fairly sure both Sinn Fein and the media have the figure wrong and it is in fact an allowance of €17,205 as of last September.

blackwhite wrote: »

What has irritated me on this one is that they plowed ahead knowing that they’d be giving the opposition an easy stick to beat them with. There’s an old stereotype of FF only being interest in Govt for themselves - IMO that’s not necessarily fair, but things like this add more ammo to anyone who wants to push that narrative.

Personally I'm perfectly happy with our Government doing what they deem to be right and proper irrespective of whether the populist mouth-pieces berate them for it. I really don't think that alone should be a valid reason to not push ahead with a given piece of Government business.

What irritates *me* is the fact significant time and energy is expended by our elected representatives in the Dail over such trivial matters; and that our media can't even seem to cover such matters with any accuracy.

L1011 · 30-07-2020 6:02pm

Anyone know if Hourigan has set a record for quickest loss of the whip after election? Patrick Nulty was also very fast in 2011 IIRC

awec · 30-07-2020 8:05pm

L1011 wrote: »

Anyone know if Hourigan has set a record for quickest loss of the whip after election? Patrick Nulty was also very fast in 2011 IIRC

She should be removed from the parliamentary party.

The greens are such a shambles.

Itssoeasy · 30-07-2020 9:56pm

One of the Green ministers abstained in a vote earlier and isn't losing the whip because Eamonn Ryan is discusing the issue with MM and LV.

Also, gavan Reilly had a screenshot of nessa hourigan and Eamonn Ryan talking in what looked like a less then friendly fashion going on the body language of birth of them.

Also, the leas ceann comhairle Catherine connelly has suspended the dail because Paul Murphy wouldn't resume his seat. All go tonight.

efanton · 31-07-2020 7:58am

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/second-green-party-td-breaks-ranks-after-hourigan-resignation-1012846.html

Bad enough Neasa Hourigan breaking ranks, but now it has been revealed that Joe O'Brien, a minister no less, refused to vote for a government motion.

I seriously cant see this government lasting a year.
If the Green party doesn't implode before then they will probably pull out when the money is not forthcoming for their green environment projects.

This government started with 84 seats, a small majority in the Dail by any standard, and if two of them are already unreliable its only a matter of time before a government motion is defeated.

Wanderer78 · 31-07-2020 8:10am

efanton wrote:

This government started with 84 seats, a small majority in the Dail by any standard, and if two of them are already unreliable its only a matter of time before a government motion is defeated.

Similar things were said about the previous government also, give it time, things might settle down eventually

Sam Russell · 31-07-2020 9:54am

I think it is Green Party TDs showing they will not vote for things not in the PfG, and so cannot be relied upon as lobby fodder. It requires the three party leaders to be better at controlling their own TDs.

It is early days, and if the last fortnight is anything to go by, the Gov will not make it to Christmas, but there is a six week recess.

Plenty of time to regroup.

awec · 31-07-2020 9:55am

Hourigan and O'Brien have their speaking rights stripped for 2 months. They got off light.

Sam Russell · 31-07-2020 11:43am

awec wrote: »

Hourigan and O'Brien have their speaking rights stripped for 2 months. They got off light.

Six weeks of which, the Dail is on recess and so no speaking at all. So two weeks of speaking restriction. So lighter than light.

Colonel Claptrap · 31-07-2020 10:57pm

awec wrote: »

Hourigan and O'Brien have their speaking rights stripped for 2 months. They got off light.

As minister of State, Joe O'Brien should have been sacked.

I say that as somebody who voted for him.

New Era · 15-09-2020 1:12pm

After watching that car crash of a press conference 're "living with covid plan", imo there is no way back for this shambolic of a "government".

Confusion, mixed messaging and bewilderment was a "thing in the past" says Micheal, Leo and co. Today was d-day for the FFG and greens, but yet again the gobbledygook coming out of those "three wise men" was breathtaking and quite disturbing.

When the country needs strong and robust leadership at this most challenging time for the country and with a no deal brexit, potentially on the horizon, what we got today was more of the same issues that have blighted this embarrassing and shameful administration.

If you were living in the capital, can you please explain what the message was to the people of Dublin? When the presser ended, I was left even more confused than I ever was. What a mess.

Stand by for the attacks from Mary Lou and the rest of the opposition in the coming days ahead. Privately they must be getting quite excited about a prospect of a snap general election, which is more likely than ever before. Quite soon I believe.

Another day and once again the govt is all at sea. The chances of budget 2021 to take place next month, bringing the curtain down on this govt is considerably higher now. How can they get the country on side again after all the waffle we saw an hour ago in Dublin castle? Good riddance is all I will say when this failed administration leave government buildings and are consigned to the history books.

Colonel Claptrap · 15-09-2020 1:22pm

What Dail arithmetic makes you think an election is imminent?

L1011 · 15-09-2020 1:24pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

What Dail arithmetic makes you think an election is imminent?

FG can't be seen to cause it and are very unlikely to lose any overboard.

FF have multiple people who are anywhere from a bit (more) miffed (Lawless) to outright calling for it to end already (O'Cuiv); if say three of them go its showtime.

Sam Russell · 15-09-2020 1:24pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

What Dail arithmetic makes you think an election is imminent?

I think the arithmetic is the poll numbers showing FF = 10% and FG = 35%.

Colonel Claptrap · 15-09-2020 1:33pm

L1011 wrote: »

FG can't be seen to cause it and are very unlikely to lose any overboard.

FF have multiple people who are anywhere from a bit (more) miffed (Lawless) to outright calling for it to end already (O'Cuiv); if say three of them go its showtime.

O'Cuiv is calling for a change of leader. Not a change of government.

Besides, it would be suicide for FF to want an election now. 10% in the polls.

Colonel Claptrap · 15-09-2020 1:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the arithmetic is the poll numbers showing FF = 10% and FG = 35%.

But what triggers the collapse of the government? They have a majority and I dont see any rebels lining up.

FG will want the government to collapse but don't want to be seen as the ones causing it.

FF will want to cling on for dear life and hope for a bounce in the polls.

Greens are an unknown. But I don't see them pulling out any time soon.

Scoundrel · 15-09-2020 1:42pm

Fg and SF are absolutely dying for another election FG on 35% in the polls SF on 27% and the irony being it's the chaos within FF on 10% that'll probably bring it about.

I suppose there are those in FF that think if they ditch Martin and go a different way they can claw themselves back or maybe they think it's time to get this catastrophic defeat out of the way and rebuild from there?

Chips Lovell · 15-09-2020 1:43pm

To say nothing of the fact that nobody will want to be seen as having caused an election in the middle of a pandemic.

Scoundrel · 15-09-2020 1:50pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

But what triggers the collapse of the government? They have a majority and I dont see any rebels lining up.

FG will want the government to collapse but don't want to be seen as the ones causing it.

FF will want to cling on for dear life and hope for a bounce in the polls.

Greens are an unknown. But I don't see them pulling out any time soon.

The change of leader gives FG the excuse they need to pull the rug.

New Era · 15-09-2020 2:11pm

That new govt spin and pr department that we saw in operation in Dublin Castle for the first time.....enough said.

I think a big problem for this beleaguered government, is the actions of the Tanaiste in the last few months.To me Leo is a national disgrace and is doing untold damage to deliberately undermine the govt, for his own selfish and vested interests. The front page headlines in the Irish examiner and in the pro FG indo this morning, is further proof if anyone needed of what type of individual the smug FG leader has always been.

He will get his general election, that he so desperately wants in the near future. But some of the carry on from LV, throughout the start of the new administration, since it took office in late June, cannot be dismissed and must be called out for what it is. Brand Leo it seems, far outweighs the national interest.

theguzman · 15-09-2020 2:32pm

New Era wrote: »

That new govt spin and pr department that we saw in operation in Dublin Castle for the first time.....enough said.

I think a big problem for this beleaguered government, is the actions of the Tanaiste in the last few months.To me Leo is a national disgrace and is doing untold damage to deliberately undermine the govt, for his own selfish and vested interests. The front page headlines in the Irish examiner and in the pro FG indo this morning, is further proof if anyone needed of what type of individual the smug FG leader has always been.

He will get his general election, that he so desperately wants in the near future. But some of the carry on from LV, throughout the start of the new administration, since it took office in late June, cannot be dismissed and must be called out for what it is. Brand Leo it seems, far outweighs the national interest.

Leo is correct in what he is doing, to think that Micheal Martin is Taoiseach after what Fianna Fail inflicted on this country is an absolute disgrace. And people here snigger and laugh at Trump when the joke is on us. To even contemplate letting the Green Party near Government is tantamount to treason in my opinion. People are very much awake to the disgrace of Fianna Fail, even Eamonn O'Cuiv came out against corrupt Micheal Martin today.

A fresh election is needed and the next coalition should be a pragmatic approach with FG and SF and that is how it should have been.

Scoundrel · 15-09-2020 2:39pm

New Era wrote: »

That new govt spin and pr department that we saw in operation in Dublin Castle for the first time.....enough said.

I think a big problem for this beleaguered government, is the actions of the Tanaiste in the last few months.To me Leo is a national disgrace and is doing untold damage to deliberately undermine the govt, for his own selfish and vested interests. The front page headlines in the Irish examiner and in the pro FG indo this morning, is further proof if anyone needed of what type of individual the smug FG leader has always been.

He will get his general election, that he so desperately wants in the near future. But some of the carry on from LV, throughout the start of the new administration, since it took office in late June, cannot be dismissed and must be called out for what it is. Brand Leo it seems, far outweighs the national interest.

That's a very naive way to look at politics the national interest is a cod only ever trotted out when difficult and unpopular decisions are made.

If the roles and the polls were reversed Martin would be doing the exact same to Varadkar it's senior hurling after all as the FFers like to say.

L1011 · 15-09-2020 4:25pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

O'Cuiv is calling for a change of leader. Not a change of government.

Besides, it would be suicide for FF to want an election now. 10% in the polls.

New leader = new election. FG won't accept a swap in Taoiseach and will be able to go to the polls blaming FF for the election.

Colonel Claptrap · 15-09-2020 6:42pm

L1011 wrote: »

New leader = new election. FG won't accept a swap in Taoiseach and will be able to go to the polls blaming FF for the election.

Why does new leader = new election?

Did the independents refuse to accept a new Taoiseach when Enda Kenny was swapped for Leo Varadkar? FF didn't mind either and they were propping up the government with a confidence and supply deal.

What about Bertie Aherne being replaced by Brian Cowen without an election?

Plenty of precedent.

L1011 · 15-09-2020 6:59pm

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Why does new leader = new election?

Did the independents refuse to accept a new Taoiseach when Enda Kenny was swapped for Leo Varadkar? FF didn't mind either and they were propping up the government with a confidence and supply deal.

What about Bertie Aherne being replaced by Brian Cowen without an election?

Plenty of precedent.

Because, as I said, FG will see an option to cause an election and blame FF for it

awec · 15-09-2020 8:38pm

Scoundrel wrote: »

Fg and SF are absolutely dying for another election FG on 35% in the polls SF on 27% and the irony being it's the chaos within FF on 10% that'll probably bring it about.

I suppose there are those in FF that think if they ditch Martin and go a different way they can claw themselves back or maybe they think it's time to get this catastrophic defeat out of the way and rebuild from there?

I think if FF suffer another collapse they are finished.

VinLieger · 16-09-2020 8:57am

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

Why does new leader = new election?

Did the independents refuse to accept a new Taoiseach when Enda Kenny was swapped for Leo Varadkar? FF didn't mind either and they were propping up the government with a confidence and supply deal.

What about Bertie Aherne being replaced by Brian Cowen without an election?

Plenty of precedent.

The independents were bought off and theres a difference between confidence and supply and being part of coalition with effectively a 50/50 partnership. Also FG arent going to take the chance of a new FF leader reneging on Leos stint as Taoiseach in 2 years time and instead calling their own election when it may better suit them in the polls because they will argue it was MM who signed it.

is_that_so · 16-09-2020 9:03am

L1011 wrote: »

Because, as I said, FG will see an option to cause an election and blame FF for it

They don't need to cause an election as everything is going their way at present , FF having a a bad time, good poll numbers and potentially another short term in office before an election. They'll see it through until well into next year anyway when one would assume more normal life will fully return.

Truthvader · 16-09-2020 1:00pm

L1011 wrote: »

New leader = new election. FG won't accept a swap in Taoiseach and will be able to go to the polls blaming FF for the election.

New Leader??? Like who?? Micheal seems an OK kind of bloke by Fianna Fail standards. At least back to Jack Lynch levels of integrity after years of Haughey/ Aherne wide boy stuff (Cown can be seen as transition)

Big problem for FF is who in gods name could replace him at the moment. Barry Cowen still needs to sober up and maybe get a full driving licence but even then he has a bit of the Haughey/ Aherne/Ray Burke smell off him IMO. The rest of them couldn't be trusted to pop down to Centra for a Kit Kat

So that leaves mad Eamonn O'Cuiv speaking Irish at the crossroads in the drizzle fantasising about a load of boll0cks no-one cares about.

I would be clinging on to Michael if I were them - and praying that another FF gouger is caught on the way into Dublin City Council with a brown envelope or with no bank account and a new car.

seamus · 16-09-2020 1:05pm

FG won't cause an election without something of substance. They need to be able to say, "This coalition is no longer tenable due to the behaviour of our coalition partner(s)". They can't pull the plug over a plan they negotiated and agreed with, and if they do it over something frivilous, they'll be accused of playing games in the middle of a pandemic.

I'd say Leo is waiting for the next big scandal now. Let this 5-level plan bed in a bit and get firmed up, then pounce on Martin's refusal to condemn the next disgraced FF member.

VinLieger · 16-09-2020 3:40pm

seamus wrote: »

FG won't cause an election without something of substance. They need to be able to say, "This coalition is no longer tenable due to the behaviour of our coalition partner(s)". They can't pull the plug over a plan they negotiated and agreed with, and if they do it over something frivilous, they'll be accused of playing games in the middle of a pandemic.

I'd say Leo is waiting for the next big scandal now. Let this 5-level plan bed in a bit and get firmed up, then pounce on Martin's refusal to condemn the next disgraced FF member.

The problem then is will they get tarred with sending us to the polls during a pandemic and it being irresponsible?

Scoundrel · 16-09-2020 4:12pm

awec wrote: »

I think if FF suffer another collapse they are finished.

Here's hoping;)

L1011 · 16-09-2020 7:34pm

Truthvader wrote: »

New Leader??? Like who??

Jim O'Callaghan fancies himself for the job, as does O'Cuiv. It'd be a contested race; with them convinced they'll get Taoiseach as the prize - even though they'll get an election as their 'reward' and could easily lose their seat if its O'Callaghan.

Party leader not being returned (when a party still returns any TDs at all) is not a normal occurence, but we may see it happen.

Podge_irl · 16-09-2020 7:43pm

Is there any indication that an actual leadership challenge will materialise outside of O'Cuiv running his mouth?

Truthvader · 16-09-2020 9:48pm

L1011 wrote: »

Jim O'Callaghan fancies himself for the job, as does O'Cuiv. It'd be a contested race; with them convinced they'll get Taoiseach as the prize - even though they'll get an election as their 'reward' and could easily lose their seat if its O'Callaghan.

Party leader not being returned (when a party still returns any TDs at all) is not a normal occurence, but we may see it happen.

Poor Jim who had a sulky little hissy fit when he didn't get the "big job" he wanted. Exposed immediately as old school "whats in it for me" Fianna Fail. No thanks

L1011 · 16-09-2020 9:52pm

Truthvader wrote: »

Poor Jim who had a sulky little hissy fit when he didn't get the "big job" he wanted. Exposed immediately as old school "whats in it for me" Fianna Fail. No thanks

Plenty of them around, as we saw with the strop-fests when the cabinet was announced.

VinLieger · 17-09-2020 8:31am

Truthvader wrote: »

Poor Jim who had a sulky little hissy fit when he didn't get the "big job" he wanted. Exposed immediately as old school "whats in it for me" Fianna Fail. No thanks

O Cuiv isnt much better, entitled little snot nosed runt. Just cus hes Devs grandson he thinks he is owed no end of privileges. Look at the shenanigans he got up to 2 years ago in the north which started that whole SDLP agreement out on a really bad footing.

Truthvader · 17-09-2020 1:01pm

VinLieger wrote: »

O Cuiv isnt much better, entitled little snot nosed runt. Just cus hes Devs grandson he thinks he is owed no end of privileges. Look at the shenanigans he got up to 2 years ago in the north which started that whole SDLP agreement out on a really bad footing.

Agreed but O'Cuivs real problem is that he is stuck in a time warp. The people who would vote for him can't because they're dead

sky6 · 03-11-2020 12:30am

They should all resign. This Mother and Child Bill is nothing short of a national disgrace.

You reap what you sow and this will come back to haunt them.

VinLieger · 03-11-2020 7:27pm

sky6 wrote: »

They should all resign. This Mother and Child Bill is nothing short of a national disgrace.

You reap what you sow and this will come back to haunt them.

In what way is it a disgrace?

L1011 · 05-11-2020 3:52pm

Reports from the FF Parliamentary Party meeting would suggest that Barry Cowen is particularly pissed at Varadkar not being made walk the plank and Ray McSharry is ready to leave the party.

Election in December anyone? :pac:

Chips Lovell · 05-11-2020 4:42pm

Can't see it happening. Fianna Fail of all people aren't going to force an election since the polls have pointed to Fine Gael and Sinn Fein being the big winners. McSharry is a perennial dissident as long as Martin is boss and Cowen is just sore because he had to resign and Varadkar didn't.

L1011 · 05-11-2020 4:49pm

The problem is who is left on Martin's side? McGrath aside.

The Country & Western set is against him for, well, everything; the Dublin Suburbia set are against him for not getting the jobs they wanted.

blackwhite · 05-11-2020 11:40pm

L1011 wrote: »

Reports from the FF Parliamentary Party meeting would suggest that Barry Cowen is particularly pissed at Varadkar not being made walk the plank and Ray McSharry is ready to leave the party.

Election in December anyone? :pac:

Ray?

If his son had half the ability that Ray did then he’d actually be dangerous

L1011 · 05-11-2020 11:47pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Ray?

If his son had half the ability that Ray did then he’d actually be dangerous

Oops.

Pat Rabbitte (I think) once rather pointedly discussed the idea of talent skipping a generation, ending the statement with "Senator McSharry" (as he was at the time)

Scoundrel · 06-11-2020 2:32pm

Marc MacSharry is as thick as pig sh1t but he is spot on about Martin and how he is perceived he is seen as a lame duck and frankly as a joke.

Bishop of hope · 07-11-2020 9:39am

Scoundrel wrote: »

Marc MacSharry is as thick as pig sh1t but he is spot on about Martin and how he is perceived he is seen as a lame duck and frankly as a joke.

He will be in a tight spot on tuesday!
Will he vote confidence in Varadkar?
Be interesting to see after his outburst this week how he wriggles if he votes with Leo.

General Irish Government discussion thread [See Post 1805]

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