Deposit & landlord - what is wear and tear

ocy · 19-02-2014 12:27am #1

- cleaning and maintenance of the back garden plants and front drive way as per 3.17 stated in the contract
Back and front garden are paved areas
- window cleaning and doors as per 3.33 stated in the contract
We wre only renting for 5 months short term at extortinate rent and we moved out 8/2/13 and landlord only inspected property yesterday and with the weather we had that week...
- living room couch/sofa damage
Cheap plastic/fake leather couch that has cracks not tears
- replacement of fire place coal and cleaning of the outer grill
Caused by lighting gas fire and not being aware that chimney was stuffed with insulation foam, we were actually lucky we didn't suffocate
- stained timber floor in dinning room and damaged timber floor surface at the entrance of the living room
Not sure about this
- stained staircase carpet on the 7th step in the main house
Again not sure about this, but definitely not anywhere in the realm of having spilt red wine on it
- refreshing painting of porch walls, living room in the apartment as well as staircase and landing
Again nothing more than you would expect considering there was a family of 6 renting
- wallpaper in the main hallway beside the mirror and below the switch of the downstairs toilet is market.
As above
- oven/cooker hasn't been cleaned.
This I can admit to as forgot completely about the oven part
-constant leak under sink in the main bathroom damage the vanity unit.
I had no idea there was a leak under the sink

Can anyone give advice as he retains a large deposit (3k) belonging to us.

foggy_lad · 19-02-2014 12:31am

Most of what you listed falls under normal wear and tear so landlord can't charge for repair, painting, cleaning or replacement.

ocy · 19-02-2014 1:01am

Thanks, That's what I thought, but it's a while since we rented, and we've never had problems like this before.
This was a short term rental while our house was repaired following a leak.
Not sure where to go next, PRTB or Threshold, any advice

foggy_lad · 19-02-2014 1:20am

PRTB is the way to go. Landlord can charge for any cleaning but only if they have paid a company/outside person to do the cleaning, they can not charge for any work they carried out themselves and should have evidence of all the work they say was required including invoices for painting etc

ocy · 19-02-2014 1:29am

There lies the problem, he's a builder so can possibly come up with all these himself

foggy_lad · 19-02-2014 1:55am

Has he come up with invoices etc? have you disputed the amount or him keeping your deposit? you as tenants have rights which he can't just usurp by telling you some pack of lies and made up bullsh1t!

He is not allowed charge for any work done by himself or his family which would include his company. You could just walk away and let him take ye to the cleaners or you can do something about it by disputing the charges and withholding of deposit and making a complaint to the PRTB.

The_Conductor · 19-02-2014 8:03am

ocy wrote: »

There lies the problem, he's a builder so can possibly come up with all these himself

If he remedies issues himself- he can charge for the materials used, but not his own time. He is specifically excluded from claiming for his own time.

In any event- I'd be disputing the whole lot with the PRTB. Unfortunately- be prepared for a considerable wait.

The biggest unforgiveable thing in your list- is that he never mentioned he had sealed the chimney of a gas fireplace. I'm not aware of the exact regulations- it seems highly improbable that gas regulations haven't been seriously breached (sorry about my use of double negatives!).

djimi · 19-02-2014 9:02am

A lot of what you have posted comes down to the level of damage/dirt, and the state of the property before you moved in. Walls should not need to be repainted/cleaned after a 5 month tenancy, a couch should not crack in 5 months, carpet should not need cleaning etc, assuming that the place was painted and clean when you moved in. However, if you have photographic evidence to the contrary (either that damage/dirt was pre-existing, and/or the level of damage/dirt now is being exaggerated) then you should have a strong case.

foggy_lad · 19-02-2014 10:00am

djimi wrote: »

A lot of what you have posted comes down to the level of damage/dirt, and the state of the property before you moved in. Walls should not need to be repainted/cleaned after a 5 month tenancy, a couch should not crack in 5 months, carpet should not need cleaning etc, assuming that the place was painted and clean when you moved in. However, if you have photographic evidence to the contrary (either that damage/dirt was pre-existing, and/or the level of damage/dirt now is being exaggerated) then you should have a strong case.

A new couch should not break within 5months, freshly painted walls also should not require repainting, but where there are children the level of acceptable wear and tear will rise. The place may have been clean on moving in but the furniture and carpats were probably there for many years as is the case with many properties. Unless they were new when the op moved in any damage can be put down to previous tenants mistreating and wearing out the furniture, a couch,beds etc can look fine/new but can be completly knackered at the same time.

djimi · 19-02-2014 10:04am

foggy_lad wrote: »

but where there are children the level of acceptable wear and tear will rise.

Not necessarily. Its not really the landlords problem that children might cause more wear and tear, and its not really right that tenancies with children should be judged by more lenient criteria than tenancies without children.

ocy · 19-02-2014 10:13am

When we rented the house, we paid an increased rent for having a short lease and to cover wear and tear. The rent was already over inflated, but we needed a large house in a particular area.
I don't believe that any of the items are justified apart from the cooker, which I will happily return and clean as it was my mistake.
I am not looking for leniancy at having 3 children, its more the fact that there were 6 people in the house, I reckon that 6 adults could have left it in a worse state. It is a 5 bed house (3 double/2 single) so potentially there could be 8 people renting this house.

djimi · 19-02-2014 10:33am

When you say that you paid an increased rent to cover wear and tear, have you something in writing to document exactly what this entails? Is it even written into your lease that the rent covers increased level of wear and tear?

To be honest, I can see how most of those issues could be seen as being above and beyond normal wear and tear, but without knowing the state of the property when you moved in, and the actual level of dirt/damage that is there now, its impossible for us to be able to say whether or not the deductions are justified. Have you anything photographic evidence to show the state of the place when you moved in, or the state of it now?

ocy · 19-02-2014 10:55am

unfortunately not, landlord was on holidays when we moved out, and agreed that we give keys to 3rd party. We ended up being resident in the house for 23 weeks, when we moved in we never envisaged being there that long.

We handed back the keys in good faith assuming we had left the house in good order.

Marks around a light switch, and 7th step of stairs, these all seem very petty to me.

Replacement of the coals - this would never have happened had I know the chimney was blocked. How was I know that some would block a functioning fireplace with anything. It anything should have been up there, it should have been a chimney balloon.

The couch was/is starting to crack but the crack would in no way look malicious, it was a poor quality item unfit for purpose.

I feel the only items he may have us on are the first two, but who does garden maintenance in winter or cleans windows in the weather we have had,
The oven cleaning is also "fact", it was an over sight on my part and I will return and clean it given a chance.

scoobydoobie · 19-02-2014 11:55am

As far as I know, the maintaining of garden is the responsibility of the landlord, provided it wasn't wrecked by a dog or anything, dirt around a light switch is to be expected to some degree, sounds like he wants any excuse to hang on to that deposit, don't give up.

djimi · 19-02-2014 12:13pm

scoobydoobie wrote: »

As far as I know, the maintaining of garden is the responsibility of the landlord, provided it wasn't wrecked by a dog or anything, dirt around a light switch is to be expected to some degree, sounds like he wants any excuse to hang on to that deposit, don't give up.

As far as Im aware, garden areas (in single property situations, ie not an apartment complex) are the responsibility of the tenant, or at the very least it would be specified in the lease.

It should be possible to clean normal wear and tear dirt from around a lightswitch. If the dirt is so heavy as to require further action then it would be outside normal wear and tear.

runawaybishop · 19-02-2014 12:43pm

Did you bring the issue with the gas fire to the landlords attention when it occurred?

groom · 19-02-2014 12:47pm

He's chancing his arm. The vast majority of that won't survive a PTRB case.

Landlords will always have their own dubious opinion of what wear and tear is. The PTRB's opinion is much stricter and they'll make the landlord cough up your deposit no matter what he is contending his contract states.

Get back as much of your deposit now without conseeding anything.

Pay the €25 to open a case with the PTRB and be prepared to wait but he'll probably pay you the rest before the hearing happens.

groom · 19-02-2014 12:53pm

djimi wrote: »

Not necessarily. Its not really the landlords problem that children might cause more wear and tear, and its not really right that tenancies with children should be judged by more lenient criteria than tenancies without children.

It is expected that there will normally be marginally more W&T when children are involved. The PTRB operate on that understanding. The landlord accepted a tenancy involving children knowing this.

djimi · 19-02-2014 1:22pm

groom wrote: »

It is expected that there will normally be marginally more W&T when children are involved. The PTRB operate on that understanding. The landlord accepted a tenancy involving children knowing this.

Interesting. Doesnt seem particularly fair that one tenancy should be allowed more leniency than another, just because they happen to have children.

ocy · 19-02-2014 1:29pm

The gas fire issue I drew to his attention immediately, and he shrugged his shoulders and said he blocked it to stop the draught, but omitted to tell me.

None of the wear and tear could be solely down to the kids. All the stuff is a product of 6 people occuping the house, be they adults or kids.
No writing on walls, no vomit on carpets.. etc...

I brought my own beds and put his in storage, unfortunately I didn't bring my own suite of furniture.

runawaybishop · 19-02-2014 1:33pm

ocy wrote: »

The gas fire issue I drew to his attention immediately, and he shrugged his shoulders and said he blocked it to stop the draught, but omitted to tell me.

None of the wear and tear could be solely down to the kids. All the stuff is a product of 6 people occuping the house, be they adults or kids.
No writing on walls, no vomit on carpets.. etc...

I brought my own beds and put his in storage, unfortunately I didn't bring my own suite of furniture.

The damage because of the gas fire is his problem so. You have a very strong case from the looks of it.

foggy_lad · 19-02-2014 1:33pm

djimi wrote: »

Interesting. Doesnt seem particularly fair that one tenancy should be allowed more leniency than another, just because they happen to have children.

It is wear and tear, not something that can be accurately quantified. Everyone will contribute a different amount of wear and tear because we are human and not robots. Also if a LL allowed pets they could expect a lot more wear and tear on the walls from dogs rubbing themselves up and down the hallway and also the garden would have signs of a dog.

ocy · 19-02-2014 11:35pm

See attached image

ocy · 19-02-2014 11:37pm

ocy wrote: »

See attached image

- stained staircase carpet on the 7th step in the main house

Met with him again and took photos, most items are similar

foggy_lad · 19-02-2014 11:45pm

ocy wrote: »

- stained staircase carpet on the 7th step in the main house

Met with him again and took photos, most items are similar

That is normal wear and tear! this guy is trying to get the place painted and redecorated using your deposit!

groom · 19-02-2014 11:58pm

Utterly ridiculous

corsav6 · 20-02-2014 12:00am

foggy_lad wrote: »

It is wear and tear, not something that can be accurately quantified. Everyone will contribute a different amount of wear and tear because we are human and not robots. Also if a LL allowed pets they could expect a lot more wear and tear on the walls from dogs rubbing themselves up and down the hallway and also the garden would have signs of a dog.

Exactly what my dogs do, we had 3 different height black marks running the entire length of our hallway wall, deposit was refunded.

ocy · 20-02-2014 12:04am

Thanks, felt better having gone back and taken picture of the issues

The front garden is cobble lock and rear is paving, apparently we should have power hosed this and kept free of leaves, pruned shrubs etc

Windows should have been cleaned twice in our tenancy of 5 months as the standard lease states 4 times a year. In my own house I am lucky if they are cleaned every 4 years!

The wooden floor damage was even better.

ocy · 20-02-2014 12:09am

Anyone any idea of how long the PRTB take to look at disputes. This could be the best 15 eur ever spent.

Also am i looking for adjudication or mediation.

Really at a loss here, as there is guts of 3k at steak here, which I could really do with at the minute

sully2010 · 20-02-2014 12:12am

Its scandalous, hes literally trying to rob you of 3k.

And this after you could of been killed by carbon monoxide poisoning due to the blocked flue.

I would have some very strong words for him on this point, highly dangerous. He could be prosecuted, have you photos of the blocked flue?

Check post 5 on in this.
http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-3001.html

ocy · 20-02-2014 12:22am

sully2010 wrote: »

Its scandalous, hes literally trying to rob you of 3k.

And this after you could of been killed by carbon monoxide poisoning due to the blocked flue.

I would have some very strong words for him on this point, highly dangerous. He could be prosecuted, have you photos of the blocked flue?

Check post 5 on in this.
http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/archive/index.php?t-3001.html

he still wants me to replace the coals,and front grate as these have discoloured from the hot molting insulation. I should have looked up the chimney before i lit it
I wouldn't have even lit the fire had he listened to me, the heating wasn't working and he kept saying it was fine. It took 2 months for him to believe that the heating wasn't working. As far as i was concernted the gas was connected and working. The foam was well up the chimney also.

Michael D Not Higgins · 20-02-2014 12:27am

The blocked chimney could actually result in the PRTB ruling for damages in your favour.

foggy_lad · 20-02-2014 3:26am

ocy wrote: »

Anyone any idea of how long the PRTB take to look at disputes. This could be the best 15 eur ever spent.

Also am i looking for adjudication or mediation.

Really at a loss here, as there is guts of 3k at steak here, which I could really do with at the minute

You should probably go for adjudication at this stage as you have moved out and mediation is pointless when you will most likely never deal with the person again. It could take several months to get any money awarded but they will most likely find in your favour and then make an order that the money be paid by a certain date.

groom · 20-02-2014 12:26pm

How much of the €3k is he trying to keep

I take it he isn't arguing that he should keep the full €3k so he should hand over the balance without a fuss. If he does try to withhold above and beyond that for leverage then the PRTB will come down even harder on him.

I'll reiterate it again. Don't give any ground because he hasn't a leg to stand on

ocy · 20-02-2014 4:58pm

Just heard back, he is trying to keep in region of 1400, if we take back the 1600 can we still proceed with case. Also he is not offering to let us even clean the over, the one thing I can admit to, although it's not really too bad. But as admitted it was the one thing I over looked

Anyone any advice, I don't fancy waiting 1+ years for the 3 k

runawaybishop · 20-02-2014 5:13pm

ocy wrote: »

Just heard back, he is trying to keep in region of 1400, if we take back the 1600 can we still proceed with case. Also he is not offering to let us even clean the over, the one thing I can admit to, although it's not really too bad. But as admitted it was the one thing I over looked

Anyone any advice, I don't fancy waiting 1+ years for the 3 k

You can take the 1600 and still proceed. If you are offering to remedy any issues and he is refusing to allow you get it in writing if possible for your case against him.

Sligo1 · 20-02-2014 5:24pm

ocy wrote: »

Just heard back, he is trying to keep in region of 1400, if we take back the 1600 can we still proceed with case. Also he is not offering to let us even clean the over, the one thing I can admit to, although it's not really too bad. But as admitted it was the one thing I over looked

Anyone any advice, I don't fancy waiting 1+ years for the 3 k

Take what you can get back and file a case with the PRTB for the remainder. It was about 10 months between sending in our application and the time our case was heard and meeting held. Definitely go for adjudication. Mediation will solve nothing in your case. Best of luck.

groom · 20-02-2014 5:27pm

ocy wrote: »

Just heard back, he is trying to keep in region of 1400, if we take back the 1600 can we still proceed with case. Also he is not offering to let us even clean the over, the one thing I can admit to, although it's not really too bad. But as admitted it was the one thing I over looked

Anyone any advice, I don't fancy waiting 1+ years for the 3 k

Taking the €1600 doesn't prevent you from seeking redress for the €1400. Just don't say anything that says you agree that it is acceptable for him to hold the €1400.

It won't take over a year to go through the PRTB. It could take about 3 months for it to be heard and then if he appeals it might take another 3 months for the appeal to come around. Then another 3 months to get payment.
He might even just pay up as soon as he get notification of the case to avoid having the determination published

djimi · 20-02-2014 5:29pm

ocy wrote: »

Also he is not offering to let us even clean the over, the one thing I can admit to, although it's not really too bad. But as admitted it was the one thing I over looked

I dont think that he has any obligation to allow you back into the tenancy to clean things that you missed. Maybe in the interest of fairness he might, but dont count on it.

As for the time the case takes, I dont think that there is a whole lot that you can do other than take your case and wait it out.

runawaybishop · 20-02-2014 5:32pm

djimi wrote: »

I dont think that he has any obligation to allow you back into the tenancy to clean things that you missed. Maybe in the interest of fairness he might, but dont count on it.

As for the time the case takes, I dont think that there is a whole lot that you can do other than take your case and wait it out.

He isn't obliged but it is not looked upon favourably if the tenant was happy to try and rectify issues and was denied the opportunity by the landlord without a legitimate reason.

Sligo1 · 20-02-2014 7:47pm

groom wrote: »

It won't take over a year to go through the PRTB. It could take about 3 months for it to be heard and then if he appeals it might take another 3 months for the appeal to come around. Then another 3 months to get payment.
He might even just pay up as soon as he get notification of the case to avoid having the determination published

Have the PRTB gotten quicker in the last year at processing adjudications applications? It was 10 months before our case was heard in 2012. Then around another month or 2 for the determination order to be processed. Then another month for the LL to pay up. (The last month obviously dependent on LL).

A seriously doubt you'd only be waiting 3 months for your adjudication meeting... Unless PRTB have become A LOT more efficient in the last year.

P.s. there was no appeal in our case either so was fairly straight forward....

The_Conductor · 20-02-2014 7:48pm

Sligo1 wrote: »

Have the PRTB gotten quicker in the last year at processing adjudications applications? It was 10 months before our case was heard in 2012. Then around another month or 2 for the determination order to be processed. Then another month for the LL to pay up. (The last month obviously dependent on LL).

A seriously doubt you'd only be waiting 3 months for your adjudication meeting... Unless PRTB have become A LOT more efficient in the last year.

Unfortunately- I have to concur 100% with the above assessment.

djimi · 20-02-2014 8:36pm

runawaybishop wrote: »

He isn't obliged but it is not looked upon favourably if the tenant was happy to try and rectify issues and was denied the opportunity by the landlord without a legitimate reason.

Surely the fact that the tenancy has ended is a legitmate reason? There might already be new tenants in place.

groom · 20-02-2014 8:51pm

I might have my terminology incorrect.
From experience there were 2 hearings, the first more informal than the 2nd. I don't think the first one was mediation because there was an enforceable determination made. This hearing could be and was appealed. That was after 3 months from opening the case.
The 2nd was a tribunal with a stenographer and 3 PRTB officials hearing it. It couldn't be appealed other than to a higher court outside the PRTB and then only on a point of law. This occurred 3-4 months after the first hearing. A judgement from this took 3 months and another 2 weeks to receive payment.

All this happened in 2013 so perhaps things have sped up. I'm sure the PRTB would give an indication of time spans if you ask them

Sligo1 · 20-02-2014 9:10pm

Ok so if that was 2013 things have definitely sped up since my case which is always good to hear.

ocy · 20-02-2014 9:27pm

met iwith landlord and had letter printed stating that he was retaining x amount of deposit in lieu of the items listed above, and that in his opinion that they were outside clause 3.7 of the tenancy agreement, refused to sign and wanted us to sign that we took remainder of deposit and there would be no further action on our part. So left with no money! bye bye 3k for the moment

Sligo1 · 20-02-2014 9:30pm

ocy wrote: »

met iwith landlord and had letter printed stating that he was retaining x amount of deposit in lieu of the items listed above, and that in his opinion that they were outside clause 3.7 of the tenancy agreement, refused to sign and wanted us to sign that we took remainder of deposit and there would be no further action on our part. So left with no money! bye bye 3k for the moment

FWIW I think uve done the right thing. Cheeky bugger! He's going to have to provide proof and receipts for EVERYTHING if you go for adjudication.

ocy · 20-02-2014 9:36pm

he is a builder and told us the cost were "mates rates" and if we wanted he could get higher quotes. I am sick to the pit of my stomach, at the thoughts of my 3k lining some one elses pockets.

Michael D Not Higgins · 20-02-2014 9:36pm

Sligo1 wrote: »

FWIW I think uve done the right thing. Cheeky bugger! He's going to have to provide proof and receipts for EVERYTHING if you go for adjudication.

Cheeky is right. That's why he tried to get the OP to sign that since he knows that if it goes to the PRTB it's not going to bode well for him.

Good luck ocy, sorry to hear you're out 3 grand for the moment.

groom · 20-02-2014 10:12pm

So he is attempting to use the remaining amount as leverage even though he has no good reason.
Send him a registered post demand for that portion back
Prtb will go through him for a short cut

Sligo1 · 20-02-2014 10:19pm

Tell him you'll sign the agreement. When you meet him to sign take a really quick sneaky photo on ur phone of it before you sign. Then say u changed your mind. Give the photo of the agreement to the PRTB. Mwahahaha.

Deposit & landlord - what is wear and tear

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