Tenant can't pay rent due to Covid

Zascar · 20-10-2020 1:34pm #1

I'm assuming many others are in this situation so just wondering how it's going for everyone. I have a small apartment and the guy renting it is only new since the the end of last year, was working in a pub so he's been out of work and unable to pay his rent for quite some time. He's about 3 months behind at the moment but I assume that is going to get worse. Thankfully I have been able to get a payment break from the bank but that's now coming to an end.

I have no desire to throw the guy out he's in a bad enough situation as it is, I believe he has to pay for his wife's place too so the money he gets from the government is not enough. My agent is managing it and asking him to pay whatever little he can.

I'm just worried the build-up will gett o much for him to ever repay and he'll do a runner.

Anyone else in this situation and what's the latest on what the government are trying to do to help?

Baby01032012 · 20-10-2020 1:41pm

Under the emergency measures that were there until August and will be again and even now once he is at risk you can’t evict him. However he needs to apply for HAP, I’m surprised you or agent have let him go that long without asking him.

Stihl waters · 20-10-2020 1:44pm

Why is he paying for his wife's place also

Baby01032012 · 20-10-2020 1:46pm

Stihl waters wrote: »

Why is he paying for his wife's place also

I’d imagine tenant is separated and she remains in the family home hence why tenant is renting and needs to also pay his share of mortgage/maintenance as part of separation agreement.

Iscreamkone · 20-10-2020 1:48pm

Stihl waters wrote: »

Why is he paying for his wife's place also

I had a tenant who said that she couldn't pay me on time because her car needed fixing and it cost €500. I asked her what would the mechanic say if you said you couldn't pay him on time?

Zascar · 20-10-2020 1:53pm

Yes that is correct as far as my understanding.

My agent mentioned HAP but I will have to chase. Does it work retrospectively?

Gumbo · 20-10-2020 2:01pm

The RTB sent out guidance on this exact measure last week to all registered landlords. Did you get it?

Gatling · 20-10-2020 2:04pm

The tenant needs to be a bit more proactive he needs to be looking into hap not yourself ,
I know it's more complicated with an ex to support but he has to be able to support himself ie pay rent or find some kind of support ,

Zascar · 20-10-2020 2:07pm

Gumbo wrote: »

The RTB sent out guidance on this exact measure last week to all registered landlords. Did you get it?

This? https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/RTB_RVTA_leaflet_ENGLISH.pdf

Zascar · 20-10-2020 2:40pm

So apparently he can't apply for hap as he has another mortgage.

Gatling · 20-10-2020 2:50pm

Zascar wrote: »

So apparently he can't apply for hap as he has another mortgage.

He can ask for his maintenance order to be changed considering He's not paying rent ,
Has he actually spoke to you about how he's planning to catch up on arrears.

Actually I believe he actually might be entitled to hap

Gumbo · 20-10-2020 2:54pm

Zascar wrote: »

This? https://www.rtb.ie/images/uploads/general/RTB_RVTA_leaflet_ENGLISH.pdf

Yes that’s it.

Gatling · 20-10-2020 2:56pm

See here

In relation to previously owned homes or existing co-owned properties, under Section 20 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 and Regulation 22(1) of the Social Housing Assessment Regulations 2011, a household shall be ineligible for social housing support if it has alternative accommodation that the household could reasonably be expected to use to meet its housing need, either by occupying it or by selling the accommodation and using the proceeds to secure suitable accommodation suitable for the household’s adequate housing. However, Regulation 22(2) of the 2011 Regulations provides that this ineligibility does not apply where an applicant for social housing support owns accommodation that is occupied by his or her spouse, from whom he or she is formally separated or divorced. Under the enactment, a deed of separation is sufficient to set aside this ineligibility ground and it is not necessary to await judicial separation or divorce to get a decision on social housing support in these cases.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-05-28/505/

TP_CM · 20-10-2020 2:57pm

Iscreamkone wrote: »

I had a tenant who said that she couldn't pay me on time because her car needed fixing and it cost €500. I asked her what would the mechanic say if you said you couldn't pay him on time?

You pay the mechanic before they hand back the keys so I suppose they wouldn't have a car that way. Whereas with landlords you have legal protection against evictions in the event you don't pay the rent. I'm not saying it's fair, but your question implies the customer is in just as much difficulty either way.

JimmyVik · 20-10-2020 2:57pm

Stihl waters wrote: »

Why is he paying for his wife's place also

He is not.

The OP is

s1ippy · 20-10-2020 2:59pm

This is a terrible situation.

Sorry OP. Both of you are having a hard time but you're bearing the brunt of it.

Hope his HAP application goes through.

pc7 · 20-10-2020 3:51pm

Gumbo wrote: »

The RTB sent out guidance on this exact measure last week to all registered landlords. Did you get it?

I didn't receive any guidance from them and I'm registered

Aye Bosun · 20-10-2020 3:52pm

Found ourselves in the situation too but back during the first lockdown. Also identical in that he is paying for the ex and kids place too. He was honest and upfront from the start. Paid his months rent as due and call the next day to discuss moving forward as he’d lost his job. We agreed a 3 month 50% debt forgiven to get him back on his feet and insisted at that point he apply for Hap. He had to apply for social housing first and once on that list got approved for HAP but not for the full rent. Where we differ is we had build up a relationship over 3 years not a new tenant. In the current situation we decided it’s better to work with what we have, better the devil you know! especially as you’ll have a very hard time evicting anyone at the moment. So we’re not getting full rent for place but we have a happy tenant, looking after the place and some rent each month. Better than having the place empty and kids breaking in for a party or likes.

pc7 · 20-10-2020 3:52pm

Awful situation OP, it really is, hopefully you can get hap or something to help.

Pkiernan · 20-10-2020 4:25pm

Remember that people who lose their PAYE income will get the PUP, employers will get wage subsidies, restaurants and cultural venues will get up to 5k per week free money.

But Evil Landlords will get nothing!

spaceHopper · 20-10-2020 4:53pm

I had tenants apply for rent allowance (it still exists) and they paid out.

Zascar · 20-10-2020 5:19pm

spaceHopper wrote: »

I had tenants apply for rent allowance (it still exists) and they paid out.

Can you tell me more please? Thanks.

Zascar · 20-10-2020 5:26pm

Gatling wrote: »

See here

In relation to previously owned homes or existing co-owned properties, under Section 20 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 and Regulation 22(1) of the Social Housing Assessment Regulations 2011, a household shall be ineligible for social housing support if it has alternative accommodation that the household could reasonably be expected to use to meet its housing need, either by occupying it or by selling the accommodation and using the proceeds to secure suitable accommodation suitable for the household’s adequate housing. However, Regulation 22(2) of the 2011 Regulations provides that this ineligibility does not apply where an applicant for social housing support owns accommodation that is occupied by his or her spouse, from whom he or she is formally separated or divorced. Under the enactment, a deed of separation is sufficient to set aside this ineligibility ground and it is not necessary to await judicial separation or divorce to get a decision on social housing support in these cases.

https://www.oireachtas.ie/en/debates/question/2019-05-28/505/

Thanks this is very useful. I'm not sure if the guy is "Formerly separated" but I'll find out. I wonder if they would even check or ask for proof he could probably just say he is...

handlemaster · 20-10-2020 7:08pm

The whole tenant situation and the OP trying to sort the welfare out for him. If the guy isn't working has an ex wife etc he's a big boy if he can't be bother putting time into getting this sorted its questionable the OP is doing himself credit working on this. Harsh but OP should give him notice ,his friends or family aren't paying his rent why should the landlord.

Zascar · 21-10-2020 6:23am

The laws are pretty strict on this at the moment, you can't evict someone - and certainly not for the next 6 weeks during lockdown. I'm sure there are loads of people in a similar situation.

The other thing is if I evict him, there's my money down the drain. I'd rather give him the chance to catch up when back working.

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2020 6:48am

Jesus Christ, businesses are seriously being hung out here, what protection are you folks getting!!!!

maryk123 · 21-10-2020 7:32am

He can apply for Covid rent supplement from his local community welfare officer

beauf · 21-10-2020 8:01am

Zascar wrote: »

....
I'm just worried the build-up will gett o much for him to ever repay and he'll do a runner...

He'll probably never have the means to pay the arrears. Pubs are unlikely to open for a very long time. He should be looking for alternative work. Best you can hope is token payment and he keeps the place well, until he gets back on his feet.

21-10-2020 8:31am

As harsh as it sounds, you should issue written notice of arrears and open a dispute with the RTB.

mel123 · 21-10-2020 8:53am

OP your going to not going to get your rent arrears and while you have a good heart, you need to protect your property and your own credit rating and get it sorted. You need to put a business head on. This guy and his ex-wife are getting two houses for the price of one here.

Xterminator · 21-10-2020 10:04am

Pkiernan wrote: »

Remember that people who lose their PAYE income will get the PUP, employers will get wage subsidies, restaurants and cultural venues will get up to 5k per week free money.

But Evil Landlords will get nothing!

these are not mutually exclusive groups of people. plenty of landlords are PAYE workers etc. Plenty of landlords will benefit from Covid targeted state assistance.

Plenty of businesses are feeling the pain. Many cannot trade.

Most landlords will be lucky and tenants will continue to pay, but some will be in the unfortunate position of being unable to move to evict.

The effect is being felt in all strands of society. Putting on the poor mouth and begrudging those individuals and businesses who get state assistance hardly reflects well on you.

ELM327 · 21-10-2020 10:11am

Remember hes still building up arrears. I would reccomend following the process and waiting until further action is allowed again. No point in having a non paying tenant

Pkiernan · 21-10-2020 10:13am

Xterminator wrote: »

these are not mutually exclusive groups of people. plenty of landlords are PAYE workers etc. Plenty of landlords will benefit from Covid targeted state assistance.

Plenty of businesses are feeling the pain. Many cannot trade.

Most landlords will be lucky and tenants will continue to pay, but some will be in the unfortunate position of being unable to move to evict.

The effect is being felt in all strands of society. Putting on the poor mouth and begrudging those individuals and businesses who get state assistance hardly reflects well on you.

You appear to be unable to understand my post.

Landlords are business people, now facing a loss as the Government has told tenants that don't have to pay rent until next year.

All other businesses are being compensated, but landlords are not. Why is that?

I'm struggling to see how you are finding begrudgary anywhere in my post.
Why would you feel the need to make things personal, saying that my post reflects poorly on me?

meijin · 21-10-2020 10:21am

Pkiernan wrote: »

All other businesses are being compensated, but landlords are not. Why is that?

Because rent is unearned income.

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2020 10:23am

meijin wrote: »

Because rent is unearned income.

tell the bank that!

meijin · 21-10-2020 10:26am

imagine you take a loan from the bank, to buy shares, and expect steady dividends to pay off the loan...

then expect government to help you out if the dividends stop coming?

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2020 10:28am

meijin wrote: »

imagine you take a loan from the bank, to buy shares, and expect steady dividends to pay off the loan...

then expect government to help you out if the dividends stop coming?

true, but i suspect most landlords didnt get into this business, just to screw people over, landlords are critical in providing our accommodation needs, our housing and accommodation policies are so bad, theyre effectively failing both tenant and landlord

meijin · 21-10-2020 10:31am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

true, but i suspect most landlords didnt get into this business, just to screw people over, landlords are critical in providing our accommodation needs, our housing and accommodation policies are so bad, theyre effectively failing both tenant and landlord

they got into this to make money, through investment of their capital

not out of goodwill of their heart to help out the society with accommodation needs

if they didn't buy the property, next person in the bidding process would maybe buy it cheaper to live in it

woejus · 21-10-2020 10:35am

meijin wrote: »

they got into this to make money, through investment of their capital

not out of goodwill of their heart to help out the society with accommodation needs

if they didn't buy the property, next person in the bidding process would maybe buy it cheaper to live in it

I thought you said it was "unearned" money?

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2020 10:36am

meijin wrote:

they got into this to make money, through investment of their capital

Of course they did, and I don't see a problem with this, they're also providing a critical need for society

meijin wrote:

not out of goodwill of their heart to help out the society with accommodation needs

Again, of course

meijin wrote:

if they didn't buy the property, next person in the bidding process would maybe buy it cheaper to live in it

Possible, but not absolute, we urgently need to implement polices that creates protective measures for all stakeholders, we ve been more or less doing the opposite

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2020 10:37am

woejus wrote:

I thought you said it was "unearned" money?

Rent-seeking behaviour is unearned, but rent is generally earned, and earned hard

meijin · 21-10-2020 10:38am

woejus wrote: »

I thought you said it was "unearned" money?

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/unearnedincome.asp

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2020 10:44am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Rent-seeking behaviour is unearned, but rent is generally earned, and earned hard

meijin wrote: »

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/unearnedincome.asp

.....

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2020 10:51am

meijin wrote: »

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/u/unearnedincome.asp

mark blyth explains this very well in this podcast, 20 min mark

https://player.fm/series/mark-and-carrie-2599432/ep-10220-there-is-hope-just-not-here

Mrs OBumble · 21-10-2020 10:54am

meijin wrote: »

imagine you take a loan from the bank, to buy shares, and expect steady dividends to pay off the loan...

then expect government to help you out if the dividends stop coming?

Dividends don't have to be furnished or maintained, have their tenants screened, have complaints from the neighbours sorted out, grass mowed etc. Their pipes never leak, their boiler never packs in and their windows don't get broke. Etc. Unearned my a$$.

MarkR · 21-10-2020 10:56am

meijin wrote: »

imagine you take a loan from the bank, to buy shares, and expect steady dividends to pay off the loan...

then expect government to help you out if the dividends stop coming?

Imagine providing a service to someone, and then they say they can no longer afford it. Then expecting to keep receiving that service.

jrosen · 21-10-2020 11:00am

The chances of you getting the rent arrears is slim at best but id imagine you will never get that money back. You now cant evict him.

Covid isn't going anywhere and if he is in the pub trade he is likely to find himself in and out of employment for possibly the next year. Ask yourself this? Can you afford to sub him for that long? can you afford to take less rent for a prolonged period of time?
Im guessing no you cant.
You need to engage with your bank asap. He needs to apply for social supports asap.

21-10-2020 1:30pm

meijin wrote: »

imagine you take a loan from the bank, to buy shares, and expect steady dividends to pay off the loan...

then expect government to help you out if the dividends stop coming?

I’m sure you have gotten the response you wanted when you said rental income is unearned.

This is a rather simplistic analogy to put accross your viewpoint. It ignores the fact that the tenant is availing of a service provided by the owner without paying for it, and the government is now facilitating the rent arrears. Also, in relation to the example you used, the Government policy does not restrict the performance of the stock market as a whole, whereas it has with the rental market. So, while I agree with you that LL should not be compensated as there is inherent risk in renting, facilitating the op’s tenant to pay for one property while living rent free in another, is wrong.

Op, like other posters, I believe you have little prospect to getting your unpaid rent, I think you should be focused on ensuring that you can remove the tenant at the earliest opportunity. Issue the rent arrears notice, open a dispute and prepare eviction notice so that it can be issued as soon as it is legal to do so.

Graces7 · 21-10-2020 1:42pm

handlemaster wrote: »

The whole tenant situation and the OP trying to sort the welfare out for him. If the guy isn't working has an ex wife etc he's a big boy if he can't be bother putting time into getting this sorted its questionable the OP is doing himself credit working on this. Harsh but OP should give him notice ,his friends or family aren't paying his rent why should the landlord.

It can cut both ways. In one tenancy I did all the paperwork for my landlord as he could not cope with it.

It is in many ways a partnership and these are unusual times, so all credit to the OP. Well done.

handlemaster · 21-10-2020 6:28pm

Graces7 wrote: »

It can cut both ways. In one tenancy I did all the paperwork for my landlord as he could not cope with it.

It is in many ways a partnership and these are unusual times, so all credit to the OP. Well done.

Well my opinion in this case is they guh isn't working the least he can do is sort the welfare out after three months of arrears.

Graces7 · 22-10-2020 6:05am

handlemaster wrote: »

Well my opinion in this case is they guh isn't working the least he can do is sort the welfare out after three months of arrears.

Well OK. The man has a broken marriage and has had to leave his home, and lost his job. Repeatedly. That would throw anyone seriously off kilter.

And if you read the State Benefits forum here you will realise that not everyone can deal with the ramifications of the intricacies of the Social Welfare system.

Thankfully he has a responsible and concerned landlord, who is seeking and finding the right information here to sort the situation without the man being thrown out in addition to his existing dire situation

As I said, renting is a partnership.

And in these times we really surely need to work together.

Tenant can't pay rent due to Covid

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