Introducing new pup to older dog

Uncle_moe · 22-09-2020 5:29pm #1

Apologies, I'm sure this must have been covered before so if anyone can send me off to another thread then great. Quite simply we have a 4 year old dog and just recently brought a new pup into our home. Our older dog has been really good to him and hasn't snapped at him or been any way aggressive. He is mostly indifferent to the pup and sometimes gives a little growl to tell him to back off if it's a toy of his.
So while there are no major problems my main concern is that the pup is not put off by being growled at, he just keeps wanting to play and I don't want him thinking he can bully our older dog especially as he gets older. Our dog has been a bit put out and has been more aloof lately so I just want to make sure we're doing all the right things at the moment to prevent and long term issues. If anyone has advice on sharing/not sharing toys, what the ideal feeding situation is that would be great.

Justin Credible Darts · 11-10-2020 5:35am

Most dogs have a pecking order. Things almost always work out fine,

When I introduced my German shepherd, to my 2 border collies (from the same litter) , the collies were 8 years old at the time, but the shepherd pup was almost a huge pup and my wife like you was worried a lot. She was afraid the older collies would be too hard on the pup

I put them all together, and part of the reason I love dogs so much is that, unlike humans they have a respect for elders more than most humans do.
The pup got a little frisky now and then when he tried to get out of line and the dominant collie would give a little nip to put him in line
Sadly within a couple of weeks one of the collies died of a heart problem, it was the dominant dog, right away, the other collie nipped the pup to let him know he was the top dog but for the next 7 years, despite the German shepherd being twice the size of the collie, he always knew the boundaries, and in their own way the battle of dominance which almost happens when the younger dog wants to take over never happened and the second collie died at 15, last year.

I would not worry, things tend to always seem worse than they are, UNLESS they are older rescue dogs, then there may be some mental baggage with them

bertiebomber · 12-10-2020 10:20am

as long as your dog has a place he can go to and not be disturbed by the pup they will work out the pecking order, dogs always find their level

Justin Credible Darts · 12-10-2020 3:38pm

I also had the large indoor cage, for when I would feed the pup and he could eat in peace, even though I would always be there, it put the pup at ease during the early period

Uncle_moe · 13-10-2020 10:40am

Thanks for the responses, very reassuring. We have an indoor pen to keep them apart when the older dog wants some peace and quiet. They're getting on great and just have the moment when the older dog nips him, but as you say that's very normal. We keep them apart when eating because the pup is still very protective of his food. We just need to work on that because our older dog was the same when he was a pup and now you can take his food away while he's eating and he won't get angry.

DBB · 13-10-2020 10:58am

Good to hear that things are going well! I think a crate or some place that you can keep a pup separated from an adult dog, whilst keeping them in visual contact, is a vital piece of gear.

How do you intend to work with pup to reduce his protectiveness over his food op? I'm asking, because this is a process that has traditionally been done in a way that can actually make the behaviour worse... a lot of owners get away with it particularly with a more laid-back dog, but if a pup is guarding his food, it could go either way if the traditional route is taken. By that I mean, taking the food off the dog or pup as they're eating. As an opening gambit, not a good strategy.
Is pup being guardy around your adult dog, or around people? Or both?

Uncle_moe · 16-10-2020 9:44am

Very good point. He's guarding his food around people too. Tends to snarl if someone comes near his bowl. With our older dog we used to add bits of cereal by hand into his bowl as he was eating so he would know someone isn't always trying to take his food away. After a while I think he realised he doesn't need to be so protective. We haven't really done it with the little guys yet as he's so young but should start soon.

cocker5 · 16-10-2020 10:05am

Uncle_moe wrote: »

Very good point. He's guarding his food around people too. Tends to snarl if someone comes near his bowl. With our older dog we used to add bits of cereal by hand into his bowl as he was eating so he would know someone isn't always trying to take his food away. After a while I think he realised he doesn't need to be so protective. We haven't really done it with the little guys yet as he's so young but should start soon.

He’s resource guarding .. any dog I’ve had to I used to hand feed to try and prevent resource guarding and thankfully I’ve never had an issue BUT I was reading up stuff on it recently and apparently that’s the wrong thing to do .. so do some research as it could make it worse ..

DBB · 16-10-2020 12:31pm

Adding bits of food to his bowl as he eats (as opposed to hand-feeding direct from hand to pup's mouth) is a really good idea op, and you may add a bit more to the repertoire which I'll get to below! My apologies... most people try to teach their dog to accept having his food taken off him by, well, continually taking his food off him. Not a good idea, as it promotes guarding and resentment. Glad to know you didn't do this with your last fella... your head is in the right place for this!

I would get to work with pup today. Next meal.
If you split each of his meals up into several portions, give him his first portion as usual.
Stand next to him, and as he finishes the first portion, give him the 2nd, pouring it from a height if need be. If he's very guardy, offer it in another bowl and push it towards him, rather than dangling your hands too near him.
As he finishes that, give him the 3rd portion. Then the 4th. And so on.
After a few days of this, you should start to see him happily anticipating the next instalment by looking up at you with a wide, happy face, and softly wagging tail. Perfect! This is what you're looking for... dog happy as you stand next to him as he eats.
Now, you can incorporate some distance into it. So, give him the 1st portion, then take a step or two back. As he finishes the 1st portion, step over to him, and deliver the next portion.
Again, always looking to see that happy anticipation from him before pushing progress to the next step.
Bit by bit, move further away before walking over to him to give him his next portion.
I include the distance bit, because with most resource guarders, their aggressive response escalates as people move towards them from a distance... so you're building this step into your training program before it becomes a big issue.
With this method, you should end up with a pup who positively welcomes you to approach him as he eats, who WANTS you to approach as he eats!

Have you got kids or any vulnerable people (eg limited mobility) in the house? If so, once you, as the main trainer, have achieved a consistently happy response to the full repertoire above, then others can start the process, but should go back to the beginning... they will progress a lot faster than you did because pup now knows how this game pans out.
But, there are 2 extra things to do with kids or vulnerable people.
1. Until you know pup is happily anticipating their approach, you should have him on a lead, and stand on the opposite side of him to their approach... just in case he lunges.
2. Kids and vulnerable people don't just throw boring old dry food into his bowl, they also throw delish stuff like little bits of chicken, ham, cheese, or anything else that pup is mad about... in other words, kids and vulnerable people cause a jackpot reward when they approach him.

You can do something similar with your other dog if pup is guarding food in his presence, but in this case you have got to the happy stage with pup, with other dog absent. Someone else leads the other dog into the room, pup gets another portion of food dropped into his bowl, adult dog is led back out. Adult dog can stay in the room a little longer each time, and approach pup, but I wouldn't be allowing him all the way over to him... too many things difficult to control in this instance!

I would strongly suggest that you do lots and lots of swapsy exercises with pup when he's carrying a toy around. Offer him a treat, and when he drops what he has in his mouth, give him his treat, and offer him back the toy he dropped, or replace it with another one. Once he's got the hang of this, start doing it with chew treats, although you will probably have to offer him something really desirable at first, to get him to drop an edible item. All great practise though, and much, much easier to do with a puppy, than with an adult dog. That's why you really must get going with this stuff right now!

Finally, just a note to be aware of early warning signs, because a growl usually comes a fair bit after pups and dogs have already given signs that they're not comfortable with what's going on... if you spot the early signs, you know not to push things any further, and go back a step or two in your training.
With resource guarding, these signs include a stiffening of the body, very often with the head held low over the food bowl (or bone, or toy). They will very often place their muzzle right over the guarded item. You will often notice "whale eye", the whites of the eyes showing as he tries to keep his head still, but keep an eye on you at the same time. The tail will also be held low, and may wag stiffly, often appearing as if only the lower half if the tail is wagging... it's quite different to the big, wide, knock-things-off-the-table happy wag we're all familiar with.
If you see these signs, you know that if you persist with what you're doing, there's a strong chance of an escalation to growling, then snapping or biting. A pup should never be pushed this far.

Uncle_moe · 19-10-2020 9:49am

Thanks for the very detailed response. Some really good practical advice there. We have started portioning his meal and all going well. You're right about dropping from a height because he's so eager to get the next portion he's trying to eat it before it's even left your hand.
I have noticed the odd sign of aggression, curling the lip etc when you come near but a bit of work should help get rid of that and as you said not letting it get that far.
One other thing I've noticed is the stealing of each others toys, they always want what the other one has so not sure how to get around that or if it's even possible.
So far so good though, both dogs get on well and enjoy a good wrestle. The pup does get too excited and starts to become too aggressive and so the older dog has to snarl to get him to stop. Should I be intervening before this?

Introducing new pup to older dog

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