Ireland's Jewish community

corner of hells wrote: »

Shalom.

Aleichem Shalom.

Peace and Love Dude!

Gimme A Pound wrote: »

Why are some people saying it's a strange thread? No it's not.

There are very very few Jews in Ireland so it's unusual to know any, and it's a culture that many find fascinating.

Well generally when someone has drawn attention to it in my life it hasn't always been for good reasons. So I guess that is why it felt weird.

Its good to be interested in other cultures

Concerning the Irish Jewish Communigy - a well known individual was Isaac Herzog / Hertzog who was the Chief Rabbi of Ireland, his term lasting from 1921 to 1936.

According to Wiki:

Born in Poland from where his family moved to Leeds - Rabbi Herzog served as rabbi of Belfast from 1916 to 1919 and was appointed rabbi of Dublin in 1919. A fluent speaker of the Irish language, he supported the First Dáil and the Irish republican cause during the Irish War of Independence, and became known as "the Sinn Féin Rabbi". He went on to serve as Chief Rabbi of Ireland between 1922 and 1936, when he immigrated to Palestine to succeed Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook as Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi upon his death. He became a supporter of both the Irish Republican Army and the Irgun.

The references appear to check out tbh.

CrankyHaus wrote: »

No.They usually are descendants of people who came over fleeing earlier pogroms and general anti-semitism in Eastern Europe, especially Tsarist Russia.

Worth noting that Israeli leader Chaim Herzog was born and raised in Ireland. His father was the chief rabbi of ireland, a Gaelgoir and supporter of ours during the war of independence.

Our Jewish population has been in decline for decades. It's probably now too small to be self sustaining, as many who want to marry in the community need to go over to the UK. Others have simply integrated and married into the Irish mainstream to the extent that you wouldn't know their Jewish background unless they told you. One family I know are like this. You'll meet a disproportionate amount in the law, though still not many.

Today there are people in Dublin whose relatives survived the holocaust who are Irish and grew up here ..also some who were refugees.

There are also a lot of Jews from Eastern Europe who have come in the last few years and Israelis.

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Unfortunately this was true for several decades

Thankful for the last 2 (I think?) Census returns, the Jewish population of Dublin is slow growing.

Well actually Jews who are orthodox need to be near the shul and mikvah for practical reasons.

Also the Jewish population is growing. Many more here than when i was a kid.

Not all very religious though. Partic Israelis.

What's the obsession with Jews? With israelis I could maybe understand, given their recent governments.
But Jew, Protestant, Opus Dei, bog standard Catholic, Muslim, headbanger Muslim, who gives a ****?
I'm Rosicrucian. The law of the land stands. Your higher moral code (or not) stands.
I don't understand the parochial nature of the OP.

I kind of think its weird after all this time they never had an Irish Rabbi lets say on the Late Late.

Say around the time of the lighting of the menorah in Dublin for Hanukah etc.

Without knowing it, I'm sure we all meet people of different faiths and none on a day to day basis.

Crock Rock wrote: »

So are the majority of Irish Jews of German or Central European descent who were escaping Hitler's persecution?

Precious few would fit this description, given DeVelera's bigotry.

Aegir wrote: »

I’ve got some very good friends here in Dublin that are Jewish.

As they don’t go around talking Hebrew

Yiddish (somewhat similar to German) would be the traditional language of Jewish people in Ireland.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Paltrow isn't officially Jewish, her dad is but you need to have a Jewish mom to be officially Jewish, her mother is Christian

I understand that children of non-Jewish mothers can convert and 'officially; become Jewish.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Manny Stein lived close by us off Clanbrassil Street. Lovely man anyway. His wife was Sylvia and the daughter was/is Freya.

Anyone remember them whether involved with the bakery or not. Often wondered about them after we moved on.

How would you find out. Not being nosy, but curious.

Drop a line to the synagogues. given that they are small communities, someone will know someone.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

I kind of think its weird after all this time they never had an Irish Rabbi lets say on the Late Late.

Say around the time of the lighting of the menorah in Dublin for Hanukah etc.

That might be complicated, by the timing of the Late Late on the Shabbat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat "According to halakha (Jewish religious law), Shabbat is observed from a few minutes before sunset on Friday evening until the appearance of three stars in the sky on Saturday night."

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

They might not just give out info about someone. Safety.

Sure. You give them your information and someone can contact you, not the other way around.

sweet_trip wrote: »

My great grandfather was around during the civil war era and the IRA etc........


I distinctly remember him telling me also about how the Jews were often burnt out of it and ran out of town by the Irish at the time as some of the IRA were quite supportive of Hitler.


Somebody please correct me because I'm terrible with Irish history, and not sure if it was actually the IRA or opposing sides who were responsible for this.

You sure are! For a start, the Irish Civil War ended about 10 years before Hitler came to power in Germany. In fact it ended around about the time Hitler attempted his first chaotic "beer hall putsch" in Munich in 1923 when a gang of comedians in a bar claimed to be taking over control of the Bavarian government (it was just the drink talking really) but they were quickly subdued by local police and Hitler was carted off to prison for a few years.

I seriously doubt if too many people from outside Germany had heard of him by then. Certainly not the IRA.

There was a notorious incident in Limerick in around 1904 when newly arrived Jews were run out of town by a combination of clothes shop owners, unhappy at being undercut by goddamn immigrants coming over here and stealing their business, and local catholics whipped into a frenzy about moneylenders and Christ killers by a local loony priest.

But that was probably the only serious outbreak of organised anti Semitism in Ireland prior to independence. Actually, many of the independence leaders were very sympathetic to Jews and indeed to Zionism. Especially in the early days. O'Connell did much to bring in Jewish emancipation legislation in Britain, and Michael Davitt was a committed Zionist. De Valera too was very close to the Herzogs, the patriarch of whom was Chief Rabbi for a time.

sweet_trip wrote: »

He also told me of how some captured brits were executed in the most gruesome manner. Made to step on landmines.

Sounds like the Ballyseede Massacre, which was actually during the Civil War, and was perpetrated by Free State forces on Republican prisoners.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The IRA in the north supported Hitler. As did old IRA men in the south.

Their reasoning was he opposed the UK
Sean Russell had close links to hitler.
https://www.thejournal.ie/sean-russell-statue-3549072-Aug2017/
They did indeed collab with the nazis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_%E2%80%93_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II

https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/review-the-devils-deal-the-ira-and-nazi-germany-by-david-odonoghue-26605630.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/analysis/the-ex-ira-man-who-died-a-nazi-collaborator-183940.html

I think its why SF still hate Jews and Israelis with such anger. They were always so susceptible to propaganda.
The IRA at the time were very naive they didn't realize germans were sending agents to infiltrate them ..just like they don't realize the british did in the troubles or other foreign agents...
Francis Stuart Stephen Hayes Frank ryan etc were also involved.
Sean Russell was IRA chief of staff and Stephen Hayes was on the IRA army counsel.
Contacts and deep involvement with the NAZIS was at the highest level within the IRA.

In addition to the Chief Rabbi's Isaac Herzog and his support of "the First Dáil and the Irish republican cause during the Irish War of Independence, and who became known as "the Sinn Féin Rabbi" as detailed previously - there is this regarding the Jewish communities links with the founding of the Irish state & etc -

War of Independence

Many Irish Jews supported the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and the First Dail during the Irish War of Independence. Michael Noyk was a Lithuanian-born solicitor who became famous for defending captured Irish Republicans such as Sean MacEoin. Robert Briscoe was a prominent member of the IRA during the Irish War of Independence and the Irish Civil War. He was sent by Michael Collinsto Germany in 1920 to be the chief agent for procuring arms for the IRA. Briscoe proved to be highly successful at this mission, and arms arrived in Ireland in spite of the British blockade.

Irish Free State Senate

In an effort to provide minority communities with political representation in parliament (as was the case with minority Christian denominations) Ellen Cuffe (Countess of Desart), a member of the Jewish community, was appointed for a twelve-year term by W. T. Cosgrave to the Irish Senate in 1922. She sat as an independent member until her death in 1933. She was also an advocate for the Irish language and served as President of the Gaelic League.

Irish Government

The Irish Constitution of 1937 specifically gave constitutional protection to Jews. This was considered to be a necessary component to the constitution by Éamon de Valerabecause of the treatment of Jews elsewhere in Europe at the time.

The reference to the Jewish Congregations in the Irish Constitution was removed in 1973 with the Fifth Amendment. The same amendment removed the 'special position' of the Catholic Church, as well as references to the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church, the Methodist Church, and the Religious Society of Friends.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Ireland

Victor wrote: »

That might be complicated, by the timing of the Late Late on the Shabbat. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat "According to halakha (Jewish religious law), Shabbat is observed from a few minutes before sunset on Friday evening until the appearance of three stars in the sky on Saturday night."

Pre-record something.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yeah I know. Kind of makes what the IRA did even more disgusting really doesn't it?

Well, there's no shortage of disgusting things done by the IRA over the years, is there?

But, is has to be said, IRA co-operation with the Nazis was mostly opportunistic, and not based on any kind of shared antisemitism. It may be deplorable that elements in the IRA were prepared to overlook Hitler's antisemitism, but they certainly weren't drawn to it. Even Sean Russell, the most notorious of the IRA figures to line up with the Nazis, wasn't ideological about it; he was equally ready to line up with the Bolsheviks in the 1920s. He was simply a totally one-eyed old-fashioned militant nationalist, and would co-operate with anybody in any way that he thought would advance his cause.

Jim O'Donovan, another IRA figure involved in contacts with the Nazis, does seem to have become pro-Nazi himself. Interestingly, though, he started out co-operating with the Nazis for purely pragmatic reasons; it is only after some exposure to them that he started to express ideological commitment. In 1942 he is writing about an independent Ireland allying itself with Germany in a common struggle against international freemasonry and Jewry. By this point the Germans had lost interest in the IRA as potential collaborators (because they were useless, basically) and it's possible that O'Donovan was writing this stuff in an attempt to maintain their enthusiasm. But those who knew him say no, it was sincere. Either way, he stoppped publicly taking this line after 1945, for obvious reasons. By then he had become a fairly marginal figure in Irish republicanism. I don't think he ever renounced the views he had expressed during the war.

Tony EH wrote: »

The IRA "supported" Hitler as much as they supported Churchill.

The only contact the IRA had with the nazis was on an extremely low level as the Germans were interested in seeing how they could so seeds of armed conflict in Ireland to draw some British focus away from their prosecution of the war on them. When the Germans realised that any armed struggle was going to cause them more of a headache than a relief, they lost interest.

The interest of the Irish, on the other hand, extended to what and how much the Germans could give them to fight the British on their island. Their primary delivery concern being in the shape of a Mauser K98.

The IRA used the Germans as an arms funnel, because A. It was impossible to get weapons elsewhere and B. The Germans were willing and had to means to hand them over.

I am sorry but this is complete fabrication and a serious crime against the truth in what was a diabolical act by the IRA. It can never be forgiven.

It must never be forgotten.

There are many memorials to these monsters.

They even tried to engineer a nazi invasion of NI. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1359872/IRA-plotted-with-Nazis-to-invade-Northern-Ireland.html

A PLOT by the IRA to link up with the Nazis to invade Northern Ireland during the Second World War was disclosed in secret service files published by the Public Record Office yesterday.

According to the MI5 records, Germany parachuted a spy into Southern Ireland in 1940 to assess the feasibility of the plan after being approached by the terrorist group.

The IRA aided Nazi intelligence, organised safe houses for spies and guided Luftwaffe bombings of Belfast and Londonderry.

The Sinn Fein leader JJ O'Kelly, in 1940, praised Hitler for freeing Germany from the "heel" of the

"Jewish white slave traffic".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._O%27Kelly

JJ O'Kelly was possibly one of the most anti semitic men in Ireland at the time. My grandfather used to tell me about him.

In 1916, members of Ireland's Jewish community protested after the Bulletin published a series of articles by Fr. T.H. Burbage accusing the Jewish community of carrying out ritual murders ; O'Kelly refused to apologise for the articles.

The IRA's publication War News expressed satisfaction that "the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe".

In relation to Sean Russell, while the stormtroopers were pillaging their way through Europe, Russell was given diplomatic status by the Nazis when he arrived in Berlin in May 1940.

They absolutely supported the Nazis both ideologically and physically. They also supported there anti-semitism That is a fact and there is undeniable proof.

There is a past that Sinn Fein has never addressed. Same with the blueshirts quite frankly.

Tony EH wrote: »

^

supports your position that the IRA, as an organisation, were pro nazi.

Please just stop.

They guided the luftwaffe to help them bomb belfast.

900 people died.

The IRA activist said that he gathered intelligence information about vulnerable targets before and after the Germans carried out the four air raids in 1941, and also reported on damage caused in the attacks.
After the raids the IRA produced a 14-page survey of the damage caused by the Luftwaffe and provided information and advice for the Axis power.

The document was intercepted though and that was how it came to be known that the IRA had guided the luftwaffe to targets in Belfast.

The typescript IRA document was entitled Comprehensive Military Report on Belfast and was "issued by the director of intelligence in co-operation with the military intelligence officer of northern command".

It came to light on October 20, 1941, when an IRA courier was arrested in Dublin and the document was found in her handbag.

Belfast was crucial to allied forces as it was key in manufacturing weapons for the allies in the war effort.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/its-now-time-for-sinn-fein-to-say-sorry-for-iras-role-in-helping-nazi-warplanes-obliterate-large-parts-of-our-city-34645486.html

The IRA report gave a detailed account of the damage caused by the Luftwaffe and identified targets which had escaped destruction. There was also a map on which the IRA had marked "the remaining and most outstanding objects of military significance, as yet unblitzed by the Luftwaffe".

The report contained a diagram of the Short & Harland aircraft factory, a plan of Sydenham aerodrome, details on the British Army, the names and addresses of British officers, a scheme for sabotaging the Belfast telephone system and details of RUC barracks in the city.

Absolutely there was a meeting of the minds. This is an absolute fact its undeniable.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Not to mention that Sinn Fein publications continuously attacked the Jewish community in Ireland throughout the 30s and 40s.



http://holocaustonline.org/ira-irish-republican-army/


You can check out the references on this Holocaust online site below the article.

As a Jewish person in Ireland, what is your view on Israel?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Please just stop.

They guided the luftwaffe to help them bomb belfast.

900 people died.

The Luftwaffe needed no help from the IRA to bomb Belfast. They had maps, reconnaissance and Y Gerat to aid them with that job perfectly fine.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Belfast was crucial to allied forces as it was key in manufacturing weapons for the allies in the war effort.

I've studied the war for decades. My father was in the Royal Engineers during it and my mother was an evacuee from Guernsey. Both of them were furnishing me with reading material since I was a child. You don't ever have to feel the need to try and tell me anything to do with WWII.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Absolutely there was a meeting of the minds. This is an absolute fact its undeniable.

No. There wasn't and the historical record stands against you.

When the Nazi's came to power in 1933, the IRA wrote about them in very disparaging terms, condemning it as a "Fascist state" and saying that the Nazi's had created a "collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants." They were highly critical of the likes of Dachau, which was being used to persecute German Socialists and felt that Hitler had coerced the German people wrongly.

During the Spanish Civil War, the IRA sent men to fight in the International Brigades on the side that fought against German and Fascist interests in that country.

But, during the Second World War, there was a change of approach regarding the IRA and the Germans, who ended up becoming strange bedfellows, primarily based on their mutual enemy, the British. But to characterise this relationship as something akin to lockstep agreement is a falsehood. This support of Germany was wholly contradictory to their previous stance not met with universal approval from their few thousand strong membership, leading to many adopting an "enemy of my enemy" stance and contenting themselves to receiving the free military aid the required to fight Britain.

Tony EH wrote: »

The Luftwaffe needed no help from the IRA to bomb Belfast. They had maps, reconnaissance and Y Gerat to aid them with that job perfectly fine.



I've studied the war for decades. My father was in the Royal Engineers during it and my mother was an evacuee from Guernsey. Both of them were furnishing me with reading material since I was a child. You don't ever have to feel the need to try and tell me anything to do with WWII.



No. There wasn't and the historical record stands against you.

When the Nazi's came to power in 1933, the IRA wrote about them in very disparaging terms, condemning it as a "Fascist state" and saying that the Nazi's had created a "collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants." They were highly critical of the likes of Dachau, which was being used to persecute German Socialists and felt that Hitler had coerced the German people wrongly.

During the Spanish Civil War, the IRA sent men to fight in the International Brigades on the side that fought against German and Fascist interests in that country.

But, during the Second World War, there was a change of approach regarding the IRA and the Germans, who ended up becoming strange bedfellows, primarily based on their mutual enemy, the British. But to characterise this relationship as something akin to lockstep agreement is a falsehood. This support of Germany was wholly contradictory to their previous stance not met with universal approval from their few thousand strong membership, leading to many adopting an "enemy of my enemy" stance and contenting themselves to receiving the free military aid the required to fight Britain.

You are in total denial. But to be honest I don't think this thread should be taken up by this debate.

But just know its a part of history and not ignored in the Jewish world.

Also the fact that SF are still anti Semitic is not ignored either. The fact that the SF mayor of Dublin went to an event to commemorate Hajj Amin al-Husseini is not ignored.

Peregrinus wrote: »

In truth, I don't the we can see the IRA as a monlithic institution, of one mind on all things. About the only thing that united the IRA was a commitment to militant Irish republicanism. On every other question, there were divergent opinions.

It's certainly true that, within the IRA, there were individuals who were sympathetic to, or attracted by, Nazism. But equally there were those whose political instincts would have been at the opposite end of the spectrum and, truth be told, there were probably the larger group. This didn't stop them being willing to co-operate with the Nazis against what they saw as a common enemy, but that doesn't make them Nazi sympathisers any more than a previous generation who dealt with Imperial Germany thereby became German imperialists.

There were also Irish nationalist Nazi sympathisers who left, or remained outside, the IRA, mostly because they found the IRA too left-wing; too tainted by communism. And there were also left-wing Republicans who kept their disance from the IRA becuase they didn't consider it sufficiently left-wing, or sufficiently internationalist.

There are certainly individuals within the republican movement about whom we can reasonably make judgments that they were, or were not, Nazi sympathisers. But making such judgments about the movement as a whole is much more difficult because, on all questions other than Irish republican militarism, the movement was pretty diverse, and indeed characterised by constant splits, power struggles and shifting internal alliances.

The plan for Germany to invade NI was developed at an IRA convention.

odyssey06 wrote: »

They can't even claim ignorance as a defence then. They knew exactly who they were getting into bed with.

No, they couldn't, which is why the situation regarding the IRA and the Germans during the war is a strange one indeed.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The plan for Germany to invade NI was developed at an IRA convention.

Yes, I know. But that isn't because they were sympathetic to Germany or to Naziism; it's because they thought they saw an opportunity to bring about a united Ireland.

In fact this incident rather makes the point. Invading Ireland or uniting Ireland wasn't on the Nazi radar at all; it wasn't one of their objectives; they had no interest in it for its own sake. So in promoting a Nazi invasion of NI the IRA weren't trying to advance Naziism; they were trying to get the Naziis to advance Irish republicanism

In fact Nazi ideology was quite admiring of Britain. The British were "Aryans", after all, and had demonstrated sterling Aryan qualities by subjugating so much of the globe and so many lesser breeds. True, their moment in the sun was passing and the thousand-year Reich was about to eclipse them in fulfilment of its manifest destiny but, if the British could live with that and remain on friendly terms with Nazi Germany, Nazi Germany would have been quite happy to leave Britain and its empire in peace.

The question of war with Britain only arise because Britain wouldn't take that view, and in fact sought to obstruct the glorious destiny of the deutsche Volk. Even then, that didn't make the Nazis sympathetic to Irish nationalism; they would have been quite happy to see Ireland reincorporated into a (subjugated) United Kingdom. But it did make them interested in anything that could destabillise the United Kingdom, and that was what the IRA spotted. So they tried to pitch to the Germans the idea that invading NI, with the support of the IRA, would tend to destabilise the UK.

The IRA were (for the most part) no more interested in advancing Naziism than the Nazis were interested in advancing a united Ireland; they just thought that a project that would be of interest to them might also, for different reasons, be of interest to the Nazis, and therefore there was an opportunity for mutually beneficial co-operation.

Woke Hogan wrote: »

My wife is Jewish and so are my son and daughter.

The worst treatment my wife ever gets is from fellow Jewish people when they assume that she approves of the State of Israel's occupation in Palestine. She personally considers that assumption to be an act of antisemitism itself.



You should be ashamed of yourself.

There's plenty of posters on this site who's reflex is to shout Israel any time Jews or antisemitism is raised.

Almost like they think that the actions of Israel are some sort of excuse for antisemitism or for making generalisations about all Jewish people.