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Rule 4

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  • 19-04-2015 9:16pm
    #1
    allthedoyles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭


    Had €20 @ 16/1 in the 2.00 Stratford today

    Horse won and the bookie deducted €80 as rule 4 applies - The deduction was 25p

    Is this correct ?


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    #2
    racso1975
    Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭racso1975


    Yup.......its a pox rule


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    #3
    seoirsem
    Registered Users Posts: 194 ✭✭seoirsem


    allthedoyles wrote: »
    Had €20 @ 16/1 in the 2.00 Stratford today

    Horse won and the bookie deducted €80 as rule 4 applies - The deduction was 25p

    Is this correct ?

    So it's 25p on every pound or 25c on every euro, i.e. 1/4 . So instead of collecting 320 + your stake you collected 3/4s of the 320 = 240 + your stake, so yes €80 is correct.


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    #4
    allthedoyles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    Yes - it was a massive deduction - I had thought that the 25p deduction was on your stake only .

    A stupid rule in favour of the bookies , but I think it was the favourite that was withdrawn .


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    #5
    BQQ
    Registered Users Posts: 2,027 ✭✭✭BQQ


    That's the price you pay for getting your money back on non-runners.


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    #6
    The Walsho
    Registered Users Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭The Walsho


    Not sure why the rule is being called stupid. It makes sense and seems fair to me. Frustrating when you suffer a deduction, but that doesn't make the rule wrong.


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    #7
    allthedoyles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    Its okay , I did'nt understand the rule , and was expecting to lose a quarter of €20 stake .

    Anyway I'll get them bookies back for this :)


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    #8
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Frustrating to be on the receiving end for both punter and cashier, the latter get awful grief for something outside of their control.


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    #9
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Speaking of cashiers, I find I have to have my sums done before I submit a winning docket(multiples like lucky15 or patents)to certain cashiers. When I queried one particular cashier because I felt I wasn't getting the correct return she mumbled something about rule 4.I checked and there was no rule 4 for the race and she was all apologies and has always given the correct amount since.Anyone else find that you need to be wary of cashiers paying out?


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    #10
    Copper_pipe
    Registered Users Posts: 11,553 ✭✭✭✭Copper_pipe


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Speaking of cashiers, I find I have to have my sums done before I submit a winning docket(multiples like lucky15 or patents)to certain cashiers. When I queried one particular cashier because I felt I wasn't getting the correct return she mumbled something about rule 4.I checked and there was no rule 4 for the race and she was all apologies and has always given the correct amount since.Anyone else find that you need to be wary of cashiers paying out?

    If I have a few dockers to collect I always colleft them separately.


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    #11
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Speaking of cashiers, I find I have to have my sums done before I submit a winning docket(multiples like lucky15 or patents)to certain cashiers. When I queried one particular cashier because I felt I wasn't getting the correct return she mumbled something about rule 4.I checked and there was no rule 4 for the race and she was all apologies and has always given the correct amount since.Anyone else find that you need to be wary of cashiers paying out?

    Usually with luckys, if someone took odds but the cashier didn't input the odds that's why you might have been shortchanged so to speak.

    But yeah, a cashier mentioning a rule 4 when there was none is well dodgy. I'd give the cashier the benefit of the doubt and say they were just being lazy by assuming a rule 4, instead of actually looking into the punter's query. They're leaving themselves open to a world of trouble by being careless like that.


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    #12
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Jon Stark wrote: »
    Usually with luckys, if someone took odds but the cashier didn't input the odds that's why you might have been shortchanged so to speak.

    But yeah, a cashier mentioning a rule 4 when there was none is well dodgy. I'd give the cashier the benefit of the doubt and say they were just being lazy by assuming a rule 4, instead of actually looking into the punter's query. They're leaving themselves open to a world of trouble by being careless like that.

    How come all of the 'mistakes' that I have encountered with cashiers were ones that left me short, never over?


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    #13
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    How come all of the 'mistakes' that I have encountered with cashiers were ones that left me short, never over?

    The simple answer is that it's easier to make an underpayment than an overpayment. The systems used allow more room for the former and less so for the latter.

    That being said overpayments can and do happen, for example inputting an each way bet as a win single.


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    #14
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Jon Stark wrote: »
    The simple answer is that it's easier to make an underpayment than an overpayment. The systems used allow more room for the former and less so for the latter.

    That being said overpayments can and do happen, for example inputting an each way bet as a win single.

    Strange then that when I have pointed out underpayments to cashiers they have always been spot on with payouts thereafter, no more 'mistakes'.
    I happen to believe that this is a big problem and fellas should always check beforehand what the payout should be on a multiple bet.


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    #15
    Jon Stark
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Jon Stark


    Yes it would be common sense for anyone to know what they should be collecting before handing in the docket.

    As I said with some it's just pure laziness or carelessness, maybe the cashiers you dealt with just copped on after you queried the payout.


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    #16
    Shemale
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Shemale


    allthedoyles wrote: »
    Its okay , I did'nt understand the rule , and was expecting to lose a quarter of €20 stake .

    Its still 240 profit that way 15 X 16


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    #17
    racso1975
    Registered Users Posts: 5,273 ✭✭✭racso1975


    Its something i noticed too. In one office in particular and always happens when I put the odds down on docket. If it shortens they try to give me the s/p yet if it drifts they give me the docket price.

    Another bookies I use the cahiers always check the odds I put down and sign them before giving me the docket. Never have problems in there.

    Now I don't know if this is old wives tale but was told a % of whats not paid out is divided up between cashiers at end of week. But I honestly cannot see that being true.


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    #18
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    racso1975 wrote: »
    Its something i noticed too. In one office in particular and always happens when I put the odds down on docket. If it shortens they try to give me the s/p yet if it drifts they give me the docket price.

    Another bookies I use the cahiers always check the odds I put down and sign them before giving me the docket. Never have problems in there.

    Now I don't know if this is old wives tale but was told a % of whats not paid out is divided up between cashiers at end of week. But I honestly cannot see that being true.

    Well it's pretty simple really for the cashier to to take the correct payout from the till,say €56.00, and hand €51.00 to the customer. If its queried they say 'oops sorry about that' if not its into the pocket. the books will still balance at the end of the day.


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    #19
    chipsdave
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭chipsdave


    There is something odd about this , I checked the race result in the Sporting Life and it said the WD horse was an 8-1 shot which would mean only a 10p R4 , I then re-checked on the RP site and I copy and paste - RULE 4: Cut The Corner was withdrawn. Price at time of withdrawal 8-1. Rule 4 applies to all bets - deduction 25p in the pound.!!!! Perhaps you took an early price and the horse was much shorter at the time ( would have to be between 5-2 and 3-1 to warrant a 25p R4 , although the Bookmakers betting % would seem to suggest that it was a 3-1 shot )


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    #20
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    definitely sounds like an error by RP, for it to be 8/1 they'd be betting to a 95% book, which we know is never going to happen.


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    #21
    allthedoyles
    Registered Users Posts: 6,893 ✭✭✭allthedoyles


    Cut The Corner (IRE) was withdrawn not under orders. Rule 4 applies to all bets, deduction 25 cent in the euro

    http://www.irishracing.com/result?race=Stratford_Sun_19th_Apr_2015_2_00&prc=053&prd=201504191400

    Here is the full result - I would have put opening price on docket , and the winner opened at 10/1 ( better odds paid )


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    #22
    chipsdave
    Registered Users Posts: 316 ✭✭chipsdave


    The PRICE of the withdrawn horse (s) is at the crux of the matter for R4 deductions allthedoyles , simply google R4 deductions to get a better understanding for yourself , The Racing Post have since amended the Nr part of their result to read :RULE 4: Cut The Corner was withdrawn. Price at time of withdrawal 3-1. Rule 4 applies to all bets - deduction 25p in the pound. We can safely assume this is now the proper result and you were deducted correctly , mind you the Sporting Life still shows the Nr as being an 8-1 shot !!


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    #23
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,103 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    They're still at it !:mad:
    I had an e/w patent yesterday that I calculated would return 39.75. I rang my local bookies and they confirmed 39.75. I called into a different branch of the same bookies to collect and she put 35.25 on the counter. I had just managed to say ' I think that should be ...' when she said 'Oh my mistake that should be 39.75. FFS it's hard enough to get a return without being robbed at the counter.


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    #24
    Shemale
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Shemale


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    They're still at it !:mad:
    I had an e/w patent yesterday that I calculated would return 39.75. I rang my local bookies and they confirmed 39.75. I called into a different branch of the same bookies to collect and she put 35.25 on the counter. I had just managed to say ' I think that should be ...' when she said 'Oh my mistake that should be 39.75. FFS it's hard enough to get a return without being robbed at the counter.

    Price of a pint next door must be 4.50..

    Disgusting stuff


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