Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

Neil3030 · 26-09-2020 9:35pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you proportion the central contract spend by the IRFU, I'm fairly certain the provinces exceed the Premiership cap amount.

Probably true.

But a fair comparison would probably need to only consider around 75-80% of the central contract values, since International players receive fees from the RFU that exempt from the cap.

RFU also pay clubs to release players but that's a separate discussion.

Bazzo · 27-09-2020 9:02am

thomond2006 wrote: »

If you proportion the central contract spend by the IRFU, I'm fairly certain the provinces exceed the Premiership cap amount.

Provinces plural? Connacht aren't within an asses roar of the premiership salary cap

molloyjh · 28-09-2020 12:12pm

I reckon Leinster are in or around the cap. If they are higher then its not by much.

What I find most frustrating about this stuff though is the outward looking nature of it all. The "oh we are struggling to compete so the rest of you need to change" notion (and its not the first time we've seen that).

When the Celtic nations were struggling 20 years ago we had to figure out for ourselves how we were going to compete with the likes of the Leicesters and the Toulouses. We had to look inward at our own set ups and figure out what we needed to do to become more competitive at the top level. Maybe its time English rugby did the same if they feel they are struggling now.

awec · 28-09-2020 12:27pm

The problem is that having different financial rules across teams that play in the same competition is nonsense and unfair.

Either a salary cap / financial-fair-play framework needs to be introduced at a european level, or the English teams need to scrap their salary cap.

salmocab · 28-09-2020 12:36pm

awec wrote: »

The problem is that having different financial rules across teams that play in the same competition is nonsense and unfair.

Either a salary cap / financial-fair-play framework needs to be introduced at a european level, or the English teams need to scrap their salary cap.

Salary caps across different jurisdictions is unfair too, different currencies, tax bands etc make it unworkable, FFP makes sense but Sarries themselves showed how it can be easily bypassed. Look at how it works/doesn’t work in soccer.

awec · 28-09-2020 12:51pm

salmocab wrote: »

Salary caps across different jurisdictions is unfair too, different currencies, tax bands etc make it unworkable, FFP makes sense but Sarries themselves showed how it can be easily bypassed. Look at how it works/doesn’t work in soccer.

FFP was pretty successful in soccer in stopping clubs spending more than they earn. The biggest criticism is that it protects the big clubs as it makes it hard for smaller clubs to get a sudden inward investment and start spending.

FFP is unlikely to be adopted in rugby as FFP is paradoxical to the union-owned model used in the Pro14.

salmocab · 28-09-2020 1:04pm

awec wrote: »

FFP was pretty successful in soccer in stopping clubs spending more than they earn. The biggest criticism is that it protects the big clubs as it makes it hard for smaller clubs to get a sudden inward investment and start spending.

FFP is unlikely to be adopted in rugby as FFP is paradoxical to the union-owned model used in the Pro14.

I’d argue it wasn’t successful in soccer, the big clubs got bigger and avoided it by having the financial clout to ignore it. It’s a nice idea but just like communism it’s unworkable because everyone has to agree to play the same game to the same rules.

thomond2006 · 28-09-2020 1:24pm

Salary caps work in American sports because those leagues are closed systems with a monopoly of owning the highest tier of their sport.

errlloyd · 28-09-2020 1:55pm

thomond2006 wrote: »

Salary caps work in American sports because those leagues are closed systems with a monopoly of owning the highest tier of their sport.

And we also perceive them as working when sometimes they don't.

Golden State warriors created a dynasty by gaming the salary and getting lucky when it shifted. LeVeon Bell effectively went on strike when salary cap rules forced him into a contract much lower than his worth. The NFL has 32 pro teams and 32 Pro kickers. As a hefty group of nearly pros spend all their time waiting for an injury so they can step up. Every year some NBA teams are accused of throwing games to get better draft picks, ruining the league balance for everyone else.

thomond2006 · 28-09-2020 2:56pm

I suppose I meant to say "can work" rather than work. The salary cap is ultimately a way for the league collectively to make money by preventing a Man City type situation where wages get inflated out of control.

Podge_irl · 28-09-2020 3:00pm

While Leinster are, I imagine, in or around the Premiership cap level - the very dynamic of having to play in Ireland to play for Ireland massively distorts the wage levels.

Ultimately, I don't care. The French are definitely out in front and the cap is partly a product of the English clubs driving up wages a ridiculous amount anyway so its their own fault.

Clegg · 28-09-2020 3:58pm

Furlong has a calf injury now and is uncertain to be ready for the 6Nations in 4 weeks time.

Richie_Rich89 · 28-09-2020 5:33pm

Wonder what sort of team we'll see out versus the Dragons. I'd like to see them make a real effort to try to develop Jimmy O'Brien up to a level where he's challenging Ringrose for the starting 13 jersey. Ringrose is good at what he does but he's also somewhat limited. I've seen some people label him a playmaker and I just don't get it at all. He's a fine passer, but he lacks the vision/understanding to use passes to unlock a defence. You couldn't really imagine him putting a delay on a pass to put someone into a gap like Sexton did when passing to Baird for Lowe's try against Munster first game back. That vision to see how to put others into space isn't there to any great extent. It's incredibly frustrating to see him die with the ball nearly every time he makes a linebreak.

Obviously, you don't want to take his strong points for granted - he does have a great eye for cutting a line that'll see him break through the defence. And his defence is pretty solid - both in terms of tackling and making reads. It's just that at the very highest level - against your Saracens of this world - the chances to make slashing linebreaks aren't there that much because defences are so tight. There's no doubt he's a high level player; you could see him making the Lions squad, although it might take an injury to Davies, or Tuilagi being picked as a 12, but this lack of ball-playing is frustrating.

Ideally, Leinster need more footballing ability from their centres, is my point, whether that's from Conor O'Brien instead of Henshaw or potentially Jimmy O'Brien instead of Ringrose. It only becomes apparent against the very best opposition, but I think the need is there. They seem to be looking at Frawley as a 12. I'm not sure how I feel about that. Reid was there, and MOC used Madigan at inside centre, but I think Leinster's identity is more to have the 12 truck it up in the Darcy mould and have the 13 bring the skills. Frawley off the bench would be no bad thing though - maybe with the starting 12 (if it was Henshaw or COB) moving out to 13 to ask different questions later in matches by shifting the point of attack further out. I think 12 Frawley, 13. Ringrose might not complement each other that well. You probably need a power 13 outside a ball-player 12 to bring the punch.

molloyjh · 28-09-2020 5:55pm

awec wrote: »

The problem is that having different financial rules across teams that play in the same competition is nonsense and unfair.

Either a salary cap / financial-fair-play framework needs to be introduced at a european level, or the English teams need to scrap their salary cap.

But we need different financial rules as different financial circumstances exist across the board. The idea that you can implement something across multiple jurisdictions doesn't really wash once you dig into it.

For example, where do you set the cap? At the level it currently is in England? How does that serve to do anything other than make it easier for English clubs to compete? It doesn't do anything for most P14 clubs and actively harms French rugby interests? Any higher and thay just means English clubs losing even more money. Any lower and theres simply no way the French agree to that.

Or how do you factor in locally produced internationals? Let's assume an international squad has 40 players. Thats, on average, 10 per Irish & Welsh sides and 20 per Scottish and Italian. In England thats 3 or 4 per side. So any measures to account for that are immediately weighted in favour the clubs in the smaller countries. Leinster in that case would benefit far more than, say, Bristol. And how then are you actually levelling the playing field? If you limit the allowances for something like that though are you not essentially punishing clubs from smaller countries for being from smaller countries and needing to supply their national team more than they would in larger countries?

Its a mess. But a salary cap only works if most or all other factors were equal. They aren't. So agreeing any sort of cap is almost impossible.

AbusesToilets · 28-09-2020 7:54pm

molloyjh wrote: »

But we need different financial rules as different financial circumstances exist across the board. The idea that you can implement something across multiple jurisdictions doesn't really wash once you dig into it.

For example, where do you set the cap? At the level it currently is in England? How does that serve to do anything other than make it easier for English clubs to compete? It doesn't do anything for most P14 clubs and actively harms French rugby interests? Any higher and thay just means English clubs losing even more money. Any lower and theres simply no way the French agree to that.

Or how do you factor in locally produced internationals? Let's assume an international squad has 40 players. Thats, on average, 10 per Irish & Welsh sides and 20 per Scottish and Italian. In England thats 3 or 4 per side. So any measures to account for that are immediately weighted in favour the clubs in the smaller countries. Leinster in that case would benefit far more than, say, Bristol. And how then are you actually levelling the playing field? If you limit the allowances for something like that though are you not essentially punishing clubs from smaller countries for being from smaller countries and needing to supply their national team more than they would in larger countries?

Its a mess. But a salary cap only works if most or all other factors were equal. They aren't. So agreeing any sort of cap is almost impossible.

I don't think a cap will ever satisfy unless the teams are operating in a common environment. Be that a B&I/ Euro league or a Europe wide agreement on cap and expense structures.

salmocab · 28-09-2020 8:01pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

I don't think a cap will ever satisfy unless the teams are operating in a common environment. Be that a B&I/ Euro league or a Europe wide agreement on cap and expense structures.

But different countries, currencies and taxes make that uneven anyway

AbusesToilets · 28-09-2020 8:17pm

salmocab wrote: »

But different countries, currencies and taxes make that uneven anyway

Absolutely, it's an area that more ought to be done in. Tho on the tax front, it doesn't hamper the US sports, where there are states without income tax.

salmocab · 28-09-2020 8:25pm

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Absolutely, it's an area that more ought to be done in. Tho on the tax front, it doesn't hamper the US sports, where there are states without income tax.

I do think there’s room for some form of FFP but we’re talking 3 leagues across 6 countries, 2 currencies, 4 jurisdictions, 1 of them country split across 2 jurisdictions and currencies and thats without adding the saffers. It would be a nightmare to organize and more importantly police.

CatFromHue · 28-09-2020 10:59pm

Cheika was made head coach for the 05/06 season and left after the 09/10, so he had 5 full seasons.

Leo became head coach before the 15/16 season so that's 5 full seasons now.

Assuming Leo can keep his job for another few weeks means he'll be our longest ever serving head coach.

Eod100 · 29-09-2020 8:37am

Kearney joining Western Force https://twitter.com/westernforce/status/1310836712092971021?s=19

hirondelle · 29-09-2020 11:32am

Eod100 wrote: »

Kearney joining Western Force https://twitter.com/westernforce/status/1310836712092971021?s=19

Has any other professional rugby player from Ireland played for an Aussie side before?

sydthebeat · 29-09-2020 11:36am

hirondelle wrote: »

Has any other professional rugby player from Ireland played for an Aussie side before?

ruaidhri murphy played for the brumbies

PMC83 · 29-09-2020 11:44am

hirondelle wrote: »

Has any other professional rugby player from Ireland played for an Aussie side before?

Jamie Hagan was also with the Rebels for a season

Yeah_Right · 29-09-2020 12:29pm

Kearney would be arguably the biggest name to go to SR from Europe. The only others that spring to mind are Flaky Freddie, Haskell, Parling and Marchant.

Squidgy Black · 29-09-2020 12:36pm

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Kearney would be arguably the biggest name to go to SR from Europe. The only others that spring to mind are Flaky Freddie, Haskell, Parling and Marchant.

Cipriani for the Rebels and Andy Goode at the Sharks as well

errlloyd · 29-09-2020 12:43pm

Geoff Parling was a Lion

arsebiscuits1 · 29-09-2020 12:48pm

Didn't Peter Clohessy play in Oz for a while to avoid a ban here?

EDIT: Looks like it https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/clolhessy-going-to-australia-1.87341

Clegg · 29-09-2020 12:52pm

Lancaster preaching calm over the defeat to Saracens. Also, near the end of the article Kinsella says Leinster have all their internationals available for section. Expect strong sides for the opening fixtures of the league.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1310905216561295361?s=19

RedRaider0 · 29-09-2020 1:02pm

a big win in the league will mean little..

that wasn't last years saracens side, it was a pale imitation as seen last weekend against racing.

that "performace" against saracens was embarrassing.

29-09-2020 1:07pm

Clegg wrote: »

Lancaster preaching calm over the defeat to Saracens. Also, near the end of the article Kinsella says Leinster have all their internationals available for section. Expect strong sides for the opening fixtures of the league.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1310905216561295361?s=19

Makes sense to be honest. A swallow does not make a summer. I'd back leinster to win that game everytime. It doesn't mean they actually will win it everytime. They still be favourites.

RedRaider0 · 29-09-2020 1:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Makes sense to be honest. A swallow does not make a summer. I'd back leinster to win that game everytime. It doesn't mean they actually will win it everytime. They still be favourites.

they had months to prepare for this game, a re-match of the previous years final and they supposedly were ready to remedy their mistakes in said final.. and thats what they produce.. this leinster team and the players are clearly not as good as many people think.

heaven forbid they had played a full strength saracens side.

29-09-2020 1:15pm

The Saracens game was a bad day at the office but not a reflection of where the team are and most of what I've read since strikes me as hysterical over reaction.

We scored two tries to one. Both teams struggled to break down the others defence but a weak link at the scrum gave them a kicking platform to win the game. That's a very specific way to lose a game and Lancaster is correct to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

arsebiscuits1 · 29-09-2020 1:17pm

Deleted User wrote: »

The Saracens game was a bad day at the office but not a reflection of where the team are and most of what I've read since strikes me as hysterical over reaction.

We scored two tries to one. Both teams struggled to break down the others defence but a weak link at the scrum gave them a kicking platform to win the game. That's a very specific way to lose a game and Lancaster is correct to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

This.

Everyone was dying to sink claws in and draw conclusions.

I firmly believe we'd better Sarries in a series.

Sarries were better on the day. I will accept this.

But I don't believe they're the better team.

salmocab · 29-09-2020 1:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The Saracens game was a bad day at the office but not a reflection of where the team are and most of what I've read since strikes me as hysterical over reaction.

We scored two tries to one. Both teams struggled to break down the others defence but a weak link at the scrum gave them a kicking platform to win the game. That's a very specific way to lose a game and Lancaster is correct to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm with you on this, one bad performance after an odd break, before the shutdown I think Leinster would have won but the few games since the restart things haven't quite clicked for whatever reason. The gloom here and elsewhere was breathtaking last week.

RedRaider0 · 29-09-2020 1:22pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

This.

Everyone was dying to sink claws in and draw conclusions.

I firmly believe we'd better Sarries in a series.

Sarries were better on the day. I will accept this.

But I don't believe they're the better team.

we had a series... saracens won 2-1.

despite losing half their side for the final game and being 10 point underdogs.

the loss to saracens was historically bad given the circumstances.

RedRaider0 · 29-09-2020 1:23pm

salmocab wrote: »

I'm with you on this, one bad performance after an odd break, before the shutdown I think Leicester would have won but the few games since the restart things haven't quite clicked for whatever reason. The gloom here and elsewhere was breathtaking last week.

agree on the gloom.. i avoided it like the plague, but can't not face the truth either.. leinster were found wanting in a huge way.

thank god for the performance in the 2nd half because the 1st was an embarrassment.

arsebiscuits1 · 29-09-2020 1:28pm

RedRaider0 wrote: »

we had a series... saracens won 2-1.

despite losing half their side for the final game and being 10 point underdogs.

the loss to saracens was historically bad.

I always run the risk of disagreeing with you Mildlyinterested as you never really care about the context of a discussion. You just care about being right.

But a series over 3 seasons is obviously not what I was referring to. I was referring to a series in the context of what many other sports - including rugby - adhere to.

The Ashes, NHL, NBA, International tours etc.

RedRaider0 · 29-09-2020 1:32pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I always run the risk of disagreeing with you Mildlyinterested as you never really care about the context of a discussion. You just care about being right.

But a series over 3 seasons is obviously not what I was referring to. I was referring to a series in the context of what many other sports - including rugby - adhere to.

The Ashes, NHL, NBA, International tours etc.

well you'd hope that leinster could beat a half strength saracens side more often not.. sadly for us leinster fans they failed to do it when it counted and the hypothetical games played on paper won't change that.

29-09-2020 1:33pm

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

This.

Everyone was dying to sink claws in and draw conclusions.

I firmly believe we'd better Sarries in a series.

Sarries were better on the day. I will accept this.

But I don't believe they're the better team.

I've watched the match back and I don't think they were particularly better on the day. They had a dominant set piece (particularly in the scrum) but despite this platform and the lack of set piece platform Leinster had we still scored more tries and almost got back into the game later on.

We fix the set piece (and that could be a big challenge) and we blow Saracens away like we did in 2018 imo.

arsebiscuits1 · 29-09-2020 1:40pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I've watched the match back and I don't think they were particularly better on the day. They had a dominant set piece (particularly in the scrum) but despite this platform and the lack of set piece platform Leinster had we still scored more tries and almost got back into the game later on.

We fix the set piece (and that could be a big challenge) and we blow Saracens away like we did in 2018 imo.

They were just a lot more accurate with what they wanted to do.

The scrum is the glaringly obvious ones. But they executed better what they set out for.

We got hit behind the gainline too often, had to check for passes that we normally wouldn't etc.

aloooof · 29-09-2020 1:43pm

RedRaider0 wrote: »

that wasn't last years saracens side, it was a pale imitation as seen last weekend against racing.

that "performace" against saracens was embarrassing.

RedRaider0 wrote: »

thank god for the performance in the 2nd half because the 1st was an embarrassment.

Nah, this is way over the top. The game was won largely because of Saracens dominance in the scrum. It could be as simple as Furlong being fit and it's a different game.

The "pale imitation" were leading until a Racing wonder-try in the 76th minute.

The reality is Leinster are (and Saracens were) in a group of about 4 elite club teams in Europe. Personally, now with Saracens out of the picture for awhile, I'd favour Leinster against the rest on any given day.

RedRaider0 · 29-09-2020 1:51pm

22-3 down at half time when you are 10 point favourites is an embarrassing performance..

Dave_The_Sheep · 29-09-2020 2:12pm

Snore.

29-09-2020 2:17pm

RedRaider0 wrote: »

22-3 down at half time when you are 10 point favourites is an embarrassing performance..

This is reductive and childish.

No one here was happy with the result but calling it embarrassing is needlessly disrespectful in my opinion.

sydthebeat · 29-09-2020 2:23pm

if your starting front row is 3 guys who started the rugby world cup final 12 months previously...
id love to see what team thats a "pale imitation" of .....

RedRaider0 · 29-09-2020 2:35pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

if your starting front row is 3 guys who started the rugby world cup final 12 months previously...
id love to see what team thats a "pale imitation" of .....

look at the saracens side from last years final, now compare it to the team leinster lost to. Simple.

bizarre to claim the side leinster just lost to weren't massively weakened from last years side. No Farrell, Kruis, Skelton, Isiekwe, Williams, Spencer etc.

Leinster were 10 point favourites for a reason.

sydthebeat · 29-09-2020 2:39pm

RedRaider0 wrote: »

look at the saracens side from last years final, now compare it to the team leinster lost to. Simple.

I saw a team that had one game to plan for for 9 months play close to their perfect game.
A team that played at such a pitch and intensity they could not match it the following week, and still only lose by 4 points away in Paris.

Was it weaker sarries team than last years final, yes it was.
Was it a pale imitation of that team, no it wasn't.

A much better example is Toulon of today is a pale imitation of the team that did the treble.

Hyperbole is great though isn't it....

OldRio · 29-09-2020 2:40pm

RedRaider0 wrote: »

they had months to prepare for this game, a re-match of the previous years final and they supposedly were ready to remedy their mistakes in said final.. and thats what they produce.. this leinster team and the players are clearly not as good as many people think.

heaven forbid they had played a full strength saracens side.

The gaping hole in your argument is this..... Saracens focused on this game following lock down and this game only. The EPL games before this and the European semi last week are proof if proof was needed.
Seeing your other replies i won't bother explaining further.

arsebiscuits1 · 30-09-2020 9:49am

Alternate kit released

https://www.leinsterrugby.ie/leinster-rugby-new-adidas-alternate-jersey/

I can see it being pretty unpopular but I like the design. I'd need to see it in person to about the colour.

I've been pretty consistent in my bugbears of Adidas stuff. I don't like the iron on and I don't like the fit.

Might get a knock off of this though for training

sydthebeat · 30-09-2020 10:24am

I like that.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread XI (The Finals Countdown)

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