Are Vegans/vegetarians against service animals?

afterglow · 31-10-2014 8:32pm #1

hi everyone

Know I'm posting a lot here just over the last day or so, but just curious about something else.
Is it ok to be vegan or vegetarian and have a service animal, in my case, a guide dog?
Would most vegans or vegetarians be against these animals?
Thanks

clare82 · 31-10-2014 10:00pm

I'm a vegetarian and have no problem with anyone having a guide dog. That's just my opinion though not sure what others think as it's never come up in any conversations with fellow veggie/vegans.

LETS GET NAKED · 31-10-2014 11:25pm

It's a tough one, vegans are against animal use, no matter what. But obviously things like guide dogs and pets for the elderly seems relatively harmful and in 99.9999% of cases a great life for the animal too. Even if it is far removed from a natural life for them.

That's the sound of me shuffling my arse on the fence on that one. On principal no, veganism and breeding animals for guide dogs isn't really agreeable, but will you ever meet a vegan who wants to take guide dogs away from people given 1) the replacement options and necessity of a guide dog and 2) the harm it causes relative to the amount of animal cruelty that happens elsewhere, no.

So no, assuming the dogs are well looked after this is something a vegan could possibly only have a small issue with and indeed perhaps none at all if there is truly no alternative invented in the future etc.

--LOS-- · 01-11-2014 1:57pm

post away OP

It's nice to see some activity on the forum!

Have to say it's not something I've thought about before. Without thinking about it I would say no, no harm there, I think anyone with a guide dog probably has a good level of respect for the animal, it could be viewed as a mutually beneficial relationship. It's our doing that dogs are domesticated to the point that they are so the argument of enslaving the animal for our own selfish purposes is a weak one at this point, we can't undo hundreds of years of domestication so we have a responsibility now to care for them without exploiting them.

Some questions to consider....is the purpose justified? It's not a frivolous purpose like taste or entertainment so there appears to be a strong moral basis there.

But then I ask myself where did the dogs come from? And that's where I run into trouble. Dogs used as guide dogs are specifically bred for that I'm guessing, and that's not something I could ever agree with. Not so easy to justify the mass euthanasia of homeless animals that you are no doubt contributing to by buying animals and supporting dog breeding. I don't know if rescue dogs are ever used as guide dogs, that would be the preferable alternative but I don't know if that happens or if it's a viable solution.

Bit of fence-sitting here too!

afterglow · 02-11-2014 10:28pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

post away OP It's nice to see some activity on the forum!

Have to say it's not something I've thought about before. Without thinking about it I would say no, no harm there, I think anyone with a guide dog probably has a good level of respect for the animal, it could be viewed as a mutually beneficial relationship. It's our doing that dogs are domesticated to the point that they are so the argument of enslaving the animal for our own selfish purposes is a weak one at this point, we can't undo hundreds of years of domestication so we have a responsibility now to care for them without exploiting them.

Some questions to consider....is the purpose justified? It's not a frivolous purpose like taste or entertainment so there appears to be a strong moral basis there.

But then I ask myself where did the dogs come from? And that's where I run into trouble. Dogs used as guide dogs are specifically bred for that I'm guessing, and that's not something I could ever agree with. Not so easy to justify the mass euthanasia of homeless animals that you are no doubt contributing to by buying animals and supporting dog breeding. I don't know if rescue dogs are ever used as guide dogs, that would be the preferable alternative but I don't know if that happens or if it's a viable solution.

Bit of fence-sitting here too!

Hi LOS

Sorry for only getting back now, I had a response forumulated in my head almost as soon as I read your thread, but wanted to reply when I had time to write things and to think a little more first.

Your last question first, re, are rescue animals ever used as guides? There is a small group world wide, owner trainers they are called. This is quite a popular way of doing things, with the concentration of owner trainers being in the US, but there are one or two in a few other places, new zealnd for example and there have been 3 in the UK at various different points.

I have to say, personally myself, I look at my dog, and the amazing life changing work he does by guiding me when we're out and about, then I ask myself could I ever have trained a rescue animal to do the same things, specially with the added complication of not being able to see, and though I think it's possibly not impossible for blind people to do this, it's not something I would feel comfortable doing myself. Another thing to take into consideration when talking about training one's own guide, or service dog of any kind, is that of access issues. We would face a lot more access problems if we didn't have in our case, Irish guide dogs for the blind, but also the backing of the International guide dog federation. This is a body set up to monitor how guide dog schools conduct their training, re standards, but i imagine that there would be quite an emphasys on positive training/positive rewards also.
I can't speak for everyone but I will now speak from my own personal point of view.
Having a guide dog has completely changed my life, and to be honest if i was able to, i would probably have one of most animal to be honest. I feel it's both disgusting and wrong how we as the human race think it's our right to decide what species it's ok for us to drink milk from, and breed and kill for food. I feel like a frawd for wanting to be a vegan if I two am contributing to exploiting animals in some way. But I can say this for sure, again from my own point of view.
I do love my dog very much, and absolutely in no way do I only see him as there to do his job I treat him like the wonderful amazing animal he is. I am always conscious of his needs and wants etc.
To answser your question the dogs are bred specifically to be guide dogs, unfortunately this is necessary, but I can tell you, if it makes any difference, anyone I have ever seen who is a guide dog owner, and certainly all the staff at irish guide dogs, from instructors to kennel staff, are absolutely completely head over heals with those dogs. They really do, as we as owners do, appreciate and understand what the dogs do for us, and we all try to treat them the best we can, give as much love as we can, and just let them know they are wanted, valued and loved.
Would vegans be against pets also then?
Hope what i've said has maybe given you a bit of an insight

LETS GET NAKED · 02-11-2014 11:37pm

Yeah vegans would be against breeding animals to keep them as pets on principle. Breeding pets in purer and purer pedigree has led to chronic health issues for many breeds. I know a guy whose bulldog had dermatitis basically since birth, suffered constantly from ear infections, developed arthritis aged 3 and was put down at a very young age. Not that it wasn't looked after, just the animal was so purebred for appearance it ended up a concentration of bad recessive genes. That'd be routine for many dogs of that breed, along with trouble breathing and even walking.

Also, breeding animals for profit often leads to them being bred in dreadfully dodgy homes where they aren't cared for properly, (not mention the huge puppy mills in the US, Japan etc).

However in reality vegans are all for adopting sheltered and rescued animals (and encourage neutering them). Another issue for vegan pet owners is that they feel uneasy feeding their pets, personally I feed mine vegan dog food and based on the results I hear people having with their cats, if I had a cat too I would happily feed it vegan cat food. But people argue this is unnatural and upsets their evolution, to which the obvious reply is keeping pets is unnatural anyway and the pet won't be procreating. Like, I wouldn't be happy to go out and buy pet food that contains tuna, beef, turkey etc. I've heard of people who are vegan getting meat for their dog basically from other people's food waste but ehh I'd just rather buy the vegan pet food, especially seeing as how well animals seem to do on it. I know a girl who's fed her cat vegan cat food for a few years since she began looking after it and it's 18 now and showing no signs of slowing down, so he seems to be doing okay on it.

Re your situation with your guide dog filling a role that otherwise couldn't be filled, this is then maybe one of the situations that 'using' the animal for the role can be justified, especially as it's well cared for. This is similar to one of those hypothetical situations in which vegans would harm animals that were attacking them or if they were 'trapped on an island with nothing to eat except meat' kind of scenarios.

--LOS-- · 06-11-2014 12:58am

afterglow wrote: »

Hi LOS

Sorry for only getting back now, I had a response forumulated in my head almost as soon as I read your thread, but wanted to reply when I had time to write things and to think a little more first.

Your last question first, re, are rescue animals ever used as guides? There is a small group world wide, owner trainers they are called. This is quite a popular way of doing things, with the concentration of owner trainers being in the US, but there are one or two in a few other places, new zealnd for example and there have been 3 in the UK at various different points.

I have to say, personally myself, I look at my dog, and the amazing life changing work he does by guiding me when we're out and about, then I ask myself could I ever have trained a rescue animal to do the same things, specially with the added complication of not being able to see, and though I think it's possibly not impossible for blind people to do this, it's not something I would feel comfortable doing myself. Another thing to take into consideration when talking about training one's own guide, or service dog of any kind, is that of access issues. We would face a lot more access problems if we didn't have in our case, Irish guide dogs for the blind, but also the backing of the International guide dog federation. This is a body set up to monitor how guide dog schools conduct their training, re standards, but i imagine that there would be quite an emphasys on positive training/positive rewards also.
I can't speak for everyone but I will now speak from my own personal point of view.
Having a guide dog has completely changed my life, and to be honest if i was able to, i would probably have one of most animal to be honest. I feel it's both disgusting and wrong how we as the human race think it's our right to decide what species it's ok for us to drink milk from, and breed and kill for food. I feel like a frawd for wanting to be a vegan if I two am contributing to exploiting animals in some way. But I can say this for sure, again from my own point of view.
I do love my dog very much, and absolutely in no way do I only see him as there to do his job I treat him like the wonderful amazing animal he is. I am always conscious of his needs and wants etc.
To answser your question the dogs are bred specifically to be guide dogs, unfortunately this is necessary, but I can tell you, if it makes any difference, anyone I have ever seen who is a guide dog owner, and certainly all the staff at irish guide dogs, from instructors to kennel staff, are absolutely completely head over heals with those dogs. They really do, as we as owners do, appreciate and understand what the dogs do for us, and we all try to treat them the best we can, give as much love as we can, and just let them know they are wanted, valued and loved.
Would vegans be against pets also then?
Hope what i've said has maybe given you a bit of an insight

When I said is it viable, those are the sorts of things that crossed my mind, if the infrastructure is not in place then it's probably not possible to create a supply of rescue dogs when there is already this immediate demand. It's not like choosing something else to eat then if there isn't an alternative. Would you view a guide dog as a necessity for a blind person? Can't say I know enough about it to say myself. I can imagine they'd enrich your life in a way that alternatives couldn't and that impact could be large enough to justify it.

I know it would be impossible to train some rescues but I'd imagine there are suitable dogs that are put down, there's plenty of healthy dogs put down. It's probably possible only that there isn't enough people providing it. I guess if you had access to that then that would be preferable but if you don't have a choice then different story. I don't think I could donate to an association that uses breeding programmes though, I can't knowingly pay to something which culls dogs in the process and creates more and more homeless animals filling up shelters. That is how I feel about breeding and buying animals in general. For me it's not a question of loving your pet or even owning pets, but it's the fact that by buying a pet you are, albeit indirectly, taking the lives of too many other animals in the process and it becomes an exponential problem, the more people buy animals, the more and more animals that are culled as a result of breeding programmes and the more the shelters are filling up. There's a lot of other issues with breeding like LETSGETNAKED mentioned so you are indirectly supporting those cruelties when you buy animals. It's that issue of not assigning more importance to one animal at the detriment of multiple others. I would support a guide dog foundation that used rescues. I don't so much question the training or anything, it's just the breeding issue, it's a tricky one in this situation though. It's maybe one of those things that couldn't fall into place until a lot of other issues had been addressed, it might be out of our hands until veganism is more popular and people are more aware of these things and creating more alternatives. I don't think you're a fraud or anything to have a guide dog, you always have to judge veganism on some level of practicality. But with pets in general it's better to adopt than shop.

BonsaiKitten · 11-11-2014 9:51pm

--LOS-- wrote: »

When I said is it viable, those are the sorts of things that crossed my mind, if the infrastructure is not in place then it's probably not possible to create a supply of rescue dogs when there is already this immediate demand. It's not like choosing something else to eat then if there isn't an alternative. Would you view a guide dog as a necessity for a blind person? Can't say I know enough about it to say myself. I can imagine they'd enrich your life in a way that alternatives couldn't and that impact could be large enough to justify it.

I know it would be impossible to train some rescues but I'd imagine there are suitable dogs that are put down, there's plenty of healthy dogs put down. It's probably possible only that there isn't enough people providing it. I guess if you had access to that then that would be preferable but if you don't have a choice then different story. I don't think I could donate to an association that uses breeding programmes though, I can't knowingly pay to something which culls dogs in the process and creates more and more homeless animals filling up shelters. That is how I feel about breeding and buying animals in general. For me it's not a question of loving your pet or even owning pets, but it's the fact that by buying a pet you are, albeit indirectly, taking the lives of too many other animals in the process and it becomes an exponential problem, the more people buy animals, the more and more animals that are culled as a result of breeding programmes and the more the shelters are filling up. There's a lot of other issues with breeding like LETSGETNAKED mentioned so you are indirectly supporting those cruelties when you buy animals. It's that issue of not assigning more importance to one animal at the detriment of multiple others. I would support a guide dog foundation that used rescues. I don't so much question the training or anything, it's just the breeding issue, it's a tricky one in this situation though. It's maybe one of those things that couldn't fall into place until a lot of other issues had been addressed, it might be out of our hands until veganism is more popular and people are more aware of these things and creating more alternatives. I don't think you're a fraud or anything to have a guide dog, you always have to judge veganism on some level of practicality. But with pets in general it's better to adopt than shop.

Irish Guide Dogs don't cull. Dogs that don't make the cut as guide dogs are rehomed, the original family who raised them for their first year are given an option to take them, or they're sold as pets, about 200 - 1,000 euro iirc, that'll help pay the costs of neutering/feeding/vet/training etc they've already incurred (a little anyway). I would view it more along the lines of paying a rehoming cost to a rescue (to help them continue work) than buying a pet. And they're good at only giving to responsible homes.
The dogs are bred for their temperament, and the year of puppy training is such a good setup for them.

And how do I know this? I have one of their ex guide dogs in training sitting next to me right now.

blatantrereg · 15-11-2014 12:02pm

I'm vegetarian and I am all for guide dogs and sniffer dogs and am fine with the concept of service animals in general.

Slaphead07 · 15-11-2014 2:27pm

I don't know why people think all vegans/vegetarians have the same view on every subject. Most of us are vegans or vegetarians because we have, by our nature, developed independent thought.

Killer_banana · 15-11-2014 3:46pm

BonsaiKitten wrote: »

Irish Guide Dogs don't cull. Dogs that don't make the cut as guide dogs are rehomed, the original family who raised them for their first year are given an option to take them, or they're sold as pets, about 200 - 1,000 euro iirc, that'll help pay the costs of neutering/feeding/vet/training etc they've already incurred (a little anyway). I would view it more along the lines of paying a rehoming cost to a rescue (to help them continue work) than buying a pet. And they're good at only giving to responsible homes.
The dogs are bred for their temperament, and the year of puppy training is such a good setup for them.

And how do I know this? I have one of their ex guide dogs in training sitting next to me right now.

Out of curiosity how common is it for guide dogs not to make the cut?

For me the only issue again would be breeding but how an alternative would come about I don't know. Other than that I have no problem, from what I've seen and heard guide dogs seem to be some the best cared for animals around.

BonsaiKitten · 15-11-2014 6:30pm

Killer_banana wrote: »

Out of curiosity how common is it for guide dogs not to make the cut?

For me the only issue again would be breeding but how an alternative would come about I don't know. Other than that I have no problem, from what I've seen and heard guide dogs seem to be some the best cared for animals around.

I don't know tbh. I know we were on a waiting list for months and maybe 3 dogs came through it. Retired dogs also get rehomed or kept by the people they worked with.

Mine failed out of it because her hip score was a little too low - completely fine for a family pet as long as she isn't let go overweight, she won't have issues. But not for a dog they invest thousands into training, which I think makes sense. She had already done some training. Afaik the rest of the litter are working.

The breeding is for temperament, they aren't pure bred anymore.

StormWarrior · 11-12-2014 11:08am

I would imagine a guide dog has a better quality of life than a lot of pets though. My neighbour has a dog. She leaves him locked in the tiny garden alone all day every day, come rain or shine, with no food or water. She never walks him. I have called the rspca about this several times but they are not interested.

Your dog has you for company all day, and he gets out and about and sees the world when guiding you. In the world we live in, I think your dog probably has the best quality of life that an animal can expect. There's not much point worrying about the morality of service pets when other animals are being tortured, neglected and killed.

celica00 · 16-12-2014 3:50pm

StormWarrior wrote: »

I would imagine a guide dog has a better quality of life than a lot of pets though. My neighbour has a dog. She leaves him locked in the tiny garden alone all day every day, come rain or shine, with no food or water. She never walks him. I have called the rspca about this several times but they are not interested.

Your dog has you for company all day, and he gets out and about and sees the world when guiding you. In the world we live in, I think your dog probably has the best quality of life that an animal can expect. There's not much point worrying about the morality of service pets when other animals are being tortured, neglected and killed.

`that sounds horrible!
did you try to ring guards or a local rescue?

Something always have to happen first until people react

I personally find the service of such dogs amazing and great BUT I'm AGAINST all the breeding. there is so many quality dogs in rescues and ponds and a friend of mine got hers from the pond too who is now a successful service dog (volunteering).
That bothers me the most but it's amazing what these dogs can do!

Magenta · 17-12-2014 2:03pm

celica00 wrote: »

a friend of mine got hers from the pond too who is now a successful service dog (volunteering).

There's a big difference between a service dog and a guide dog. If the Guide Dogs could save a ton of money by rescuing instead of breeding and having the same success, they would.

celica00 · 17-12-2014 5:46pm

Magenta wrote: »

There's a big difference between a service dog and a guide dog. If the Guide Dogs could save a ton of money by rescuing instead of breeding and having the same success, they would.

I know the difference

And I don't think so.
The only problem is, that they don't want to put the time and money into resourcing a suitable dog from a rescue. instead they go the easy way and just breed them.
Easy and predictable even though not all puppy's will be suitable as a guide dog.
With that massive problem in this country, I think that extra step should be taken from their site. Even if it's only a couple of rescue dogs they get a year..... to simply make a point and also show the public how great rescue dogs can be.

afterglow · 17-12-2014 5:50pm

celica00 wrote: »

I know the difference
And I don't think so.
The only problem is, that they don't want to put the time and money into resourcing a suitable dog from a rescue. instead they go the easy way and just breed them.
Easy and predictable even though not all puppy's will be suitable as a guide dog.
With that massive problem in this country, I think that extra step should be taken from their site. Even if it's only a couple of rescue dogs they get a year..... to simply make a point and also show the public how great rescue dogs can be.

The dogs ar bred specifically for their temperament and personalities. No offence but try being blind and then yo'd know and appreciate how important it is that the dogs are bred specifically. If you've never trusted a dog to guide you and see for you then it's probably hard to understand but i'm speaking from experience.

Magenta · 18-12-2014 2:15pm

celica00 wrote: »

Even if it's only a couple of rescue dogs they get a year..... to simply make a point and also show the public how great rescue dogs can be.

Why should they though? Their function is to provide guide dogs to blind people. End of. They are a charity. Why should they have to get into some political stance and spend bucketloads of time trying to source 1 or 2 rescue dogs just to prove a point?
I do not understand this mentality that rescue dogs are so much better than all other dogs and some sort of holy grail that everyone should adopt regardless of what type of dog they are actually looking for. They're not.

BonsaiKitten · 19-12-2014 12:15am

celica00 wrote: »

I know the difference
And I don't think so.
The only problem is, that they don't want to put the time and money into resourcing a suitable dog from a rescue. instead they go the easy way and just breed them.
Easy and predictable even though not all puppy's will be suitable as a guide dog.
With that massive problem in this country, I think that extra step should be taken from their site. Even if it's only a couple of rescue dogs they get a year..... to simply make a point and also show the public how great rescue dogs can be.

Are.You.Kidding.

They have put years into developing their bloodlines for the dogs, trying to ensure there are minimum health problems and a good temperament. They've put plenty of time and money in.

The pups spend a year out being raised by families to expose them to all kinds of scenarios - costs of food etc paid for by guide dogs afaik.The families who do this have to be vetted too. Then into training that costs thousands to train them as guide dogs...but sure that's the easy way out ain't it??

And when not all are suitable, they rehome them. I really don't see why that's an issue.

Its not the job of the guide dogs to showcase how wonderful rescue dogs are - and I do agree they can be. It's the job of the charities that rehome and care for rescue dogs to do that.

And for what it's worth, my own dog now does volunteering work, and while it's great and all yeah - the criteria just doesn't compare to guide dogs. And I'm not judging that at all, why would it? It wouldn't be necessary at all. It's just not the same work.

--LOS-- · 19-12-2014 6:23am

Slaphead07 wrote: »

I don't know why people think all vegans/vegetarians have the same view on every subject. Most of us are vegans or vegetarians because we have, by our nature, developed independent thought.

Ah I don't think anyone thinks that here. I think because of how the Q was asked...."is it ok..."....then people are just responding in the same manner but I don't think there was any intention to generalise.

Obviously this is a very specific topic, of course we're all just thinking this out, some users will have more insight from personal experience but its a discussion after all.

Are Vegans/vegetarians against service animals?

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