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07-11-2020, 15:43   #1
louis346789
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Latin notation

Hi All
My relation Patrick Mullen married Elizabeth Mullen at the Pro Cathedral Dublin
on 25 th August 1893. They were both from same townland in county Louth.

They got a dispensation. I am trying to establish if they were cousins e g first , second or other.I think the dispensation says Elizabeth is pregnant.

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/reels/st.mary%27s-pro-cath_mf_1862-1881_ma_0341.pdf

Any advise or opinions please

loluis

Last edited by louis346789; 07-11-2020 at 17:13. Reason: Added link
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07-11-2020, 19:27   #2
 
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I don't see a reference to pregnancy. It looks like the conducting of the marriage ceremony was delegated by the PP, Tallanstown.
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07-11-2020, 20:23   #3
louis346789
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I know from birth records their daughter Mary was born 3 months afer they married. Born 11 November 1893.
Would the dispensation be because of pregnancy or possibly cousins
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07-11-2020, 20:54   #4
New Home
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Maybe their fathers were first cousins - both have the same name.

Actually, scrap that, sorry.

Last edited by New Home; 07-11-2020 at 20:57.
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07-11-2020, 21:18   #5
louis346789
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Hi new home thanks. Just spotted they cannot be first cousins because of both fathers being Thomas. So possibly second cousins.
Is there any other place where the reason for the dispensation would be recorded.
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07-11-2020, 21:29   #6
New Home
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I'm not sure to be honest. Could they have been too young to marry?
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07-11-2020, 21:46   #7
louis346789
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No. Patrick was 35 years old and Elizabeth 36 years old.
Patricks father was Thomas who was my GGF. Patrick was cut from his father's will.
He got 1 penny in the will to prevent him making a claim on the estate.
Words used were along the lines of "he left me a long time ago"
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08-11-2020, 01:09   #8
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Yikes...
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09-11-2020, 09:07   #9
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Mod note: OP has asked me to create separate thread. Go mad on discussion here!
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09-11-2020, 10:33   #10
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The comment in the Dispensation column is a note by the celebrating priest - Obligatus a PP Tallanstown" - i.e. 'obliged to' - It is a simple acknowledgement that the priest in their home parish (where they normally would have married) had acknowledged there was no impediment to their marriage. Were they close cousins their degree of kinship would have been recorded (e.g. 'consang. in secundo/tertio grado.) [edit] they were living in Tallanstown and possibly wanted her 'bump' to pass unnoticed outside the home parish. Marriage while pregnant was not uncommon.

Last edited by Mick Tator; 09-11-2020 at 10:47.
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09-11-2020, 11:14   #11
 
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The first word in the Latin notation appears to be 'Delegatus'. The column on the right of the left-hand page indicates they had a dispensation.
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09-11-2020, 13:22   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetch View Post
The first word in the Latin notation appears to be 'Delegatus'. The column on the right of the left-hand page indicates they had a dispensation.
Agreed on delegatus. The 'Disp.' on the left-hand page relates to a dispensation with the Banns, the reason for getting the OK from their local PP in Tallanstown
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09-11-2020, 15:51   #13
louis346789
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Thank you all for your help. This makes it even more confusing!. I was hoping they were cousins. If they are strangers it makes sorting the family tree even more difficult.

I am still surprised they travelled to Dublin to get married. I know his father cut him from his inheritance because of the marriage. He was the oldest son and in line to inherit the small farm.



Please keep the ideas coming.
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10-11-2020, 08:33   #14
KildareFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by louis346789 View Post
Thank you all for your help. This makes it even more confusing!. I was hoping they were cousins. If they are strangers it makes sorting the family tree even more difficult.

I am still surprised they travelled to Dublin to get married. I know his father cut him from his inheritance because of the marriage. He was the oldest son and in line to inherit the small farm.



Please keep the ideas coming.

I would say you have the answer there - it is likely there was some tension between the two Mullen families and the marriage was not approved of; they eloped to Dublin to avoid mayhem in the Tallanstown church especially since the baby was on the way.



DNA may help in working out the relationship between the two Mullen families. My great grandmother came from Inishbofin island; turns out others descended from a family with the same surname are not related. I suspect that my 2xgreat grandfather came to the island with the coast guard and wasn't related to the families already there with the same name.
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10-11-2020, 16:39   #15
VirginiaB
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Dispensation from reading of the banns was a very common reason for giving a dispensation. There is an invaluable book, 'Bishop Loughlin's Dispensations, 1859-1866", compiled by Joseph Silinonte based on Diocese of Brooklyn records. There are thousands of dispensations from that time period with great genealogical info--parents' names, origin in Ireland, church where married etc. Silinonte notes that 80% of the dispensations were for reading of the banns. And I was delighted to find some of my own ancestors/relatives in the book. The vast majority of the couples described were from Ireland.
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