General Rugby Discussion II

troyzer · 20-05-2019 12:39pm

Jazlyn Victorious Vessel wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

I brought up Baker as an example that when highly public people say stupid stuff, they get the sack when their job relies on a positive image.

What Baker did wasn't as bad as Folau, not by a stretch. I brought him up to show that he was sacked and if Folau (who was worse) isn't sacked, it'll be because what he said is somehow more protected than what somebody else said just because it's a religious conviction. Which is quite terrifying. I don't like the idea of a skinhead getting sacked for something horrible but a Christian saying exactly the same thing gets away with it because we don't want to step on anyone's toes.

There is no skinhead in this scenario, I think I'm doing a bad job of getting my point across.

You're also in different jurisdictions.

I know that but Australia and the UK have very similar legal systems. The last legal constitutional tie was only severed in 1986

aloooof · 20-05-2019 2:00pm

troyzer wrote: »

I brought up Baker as an example that when highly public people say stupid stuff, they get the sack when their job relies on a positive image.

They both posted / said something offensive, have both gotten sacked, and that's as far as the similarities go. Their reactions afterwards were completely contrasting. My only point is that that should be taken into account. Intent matters.

It's why, when Aki apologised for liking Folau's post and said it was an accident, he didn't get anywhere near as pilloried as Billy Vunipola.

Squidgy Black · 20-05-2019 2:02pm

aloooof wrote: »

I guess the flip side of this is that their Qantas sponsorship (and possibly others) were in jeopardy if they didn't sack Folau?

Yeah it's likely there would've been sponsorship blow-back if he hadn't been sacked, and I'd imagine that's why the significant payoff of 1 million was offered to try and avoid the lawsuit.

It'll be a disappointment if it does go to the high court. Will likely have a significant knock-on to the super rugby squads in terms of funding etc.

Dubinusa · 20-05-2019 2:29pm

Anyone notice the exodus of boks post rwc? Devastating for Rassie. The pay in Europe is destroying Bok rugby.

troyzer · 20-05-2019 3:18pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Anyone notice the exodus of boks post rwc? Devastating for Rassie. The pay in Europe is destroying Bok rugby.

The South African economy is destroying Bok rugby.

swiwi_ · 20-05-2019 4:44pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Anyone notice the exodus of boks post rwc? Devastating for Rassie. The pay in Europe is destroying Bok rugby.

I think this is what they were looking for, no? They've decided to fund a core group of players in SA, the rest are free to go to Europe/Japan, and the SARFU intend to enforce the World Rugby rules around international windows etc.

It's the next step towards the inevitable Rugby Premier League model in England/France, where the best SA > Aust > NZ players will play mostly in UK, France and Japan.

The only way I could see around this is from a cash injection into the SH from the proposed world league, I suspect the Celtic Nations don't want in. But no-one outside of the celtic countries will watch the Pro 14, all the TV money will go into the UK and French markets. Wouldn't even surprise me if the Heineken is eventually scrapped with an annual Anglo-French tournament in it's place.

Be careful what you wish for, I don't see how SA, Australia and NZ turning into development leagues for 18, 19, 20 year olds, who the head off to England, France and Japan is good for international rugby. If the Celtic Nations had sense, they would try to protect the SH a bit IMO. I certainly don't see the Celtic Nations coming out top in a financial battle with the UK and France.

troyzer · 20-05-2019 5:20pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Dubinusa wrote: »

Anyone notice the exodus of boks post rwc? Devastating for Rassie. The pay in Europe is destroying Bok rugby.

I think this is what they were looking for, no? They've decided to fund a core group of players in SA, the rest are free to go to Europe/Japan, and the SARFU intend to enforce the World Rugby rules around international windows etc.

It's the next step towards the inevitable Rugby Premier League model in England/France, where the best SA > Aust > NZ players will play mostly in UK, France and Japan.

The only way I could see around this is from a cash injection into the SH from the proposed world league, I suspect the Celtic Nations don't want in. But no-one outside of the celtic countries will watch the Pro 14, all the TV money will go into the UK and French markets. Wouldn't even surprise me if the Heineken is eventually scrapped with an annual Anglo-French tournament in it's place.

Be careful what you wish for, I don't see how SA, Australia and NZ turning into development leagues for 18, 19, 20 year olds, who the head off to England, France and Japan is good for international rugby. If the Celtic Nations had sense, they would try to protect the SH a bit IMO. I certainly don't see the Celtic Nations coming out top in a financial battle with the UK and France.

Ireland is the only union which is financially stable as it is.

The southern hemisphere asking for a dig out when the likes of Wales and Scotland are bleeding players is just ridiculous. Wales have just had to completely reform their entire salary structure and there will inevitably be at least one team scrapped. Players still don't have contracts for next season.

Meanwhile it seems like every year that Scotland lose a marquee player overseas. This year it's Hogg, last year it was Russell and in the years before it included players like Richie Gray, Barclay and Laidlaw.

The north is not in a position to bail out the South. If people in the south don't give a **** enough to attend super rugby games then ultimately, that's the problem.

Though we can agree that the English and French are ****ing this up.

swiwi_ · 20-05-2019 6:07pm

Since rugby turned professional in 1995, 37 NZ Super Rugby players have left NZ to join an Irish province. It doesn't include players who ended up in Ireland after heading elsewhere first (eg Jimmy Gopperth) nor those who never played Super Rugby (eg Rodney Ah You).

Ulster
JV
MS
MM
IB
JA
JP

Leinster
BW
DH
BW
IN
CN
MB
NW
MB
JGP
JL

Munster
CC
DH
JP
RT
NW
TM
PB
ST
QM
TB
FS
RM
TAT

Connacht
NT
BU
GN
FV
CC
BA
TM
PA

It'd be a good effort to get your own province, let alone the whole list. There a few of these players I have either forgotten or never heard of. There are also players who subsequently moved to another Irish province.

aloooof · 20-05-2019 6:14pm

Love this. I've made a decent start with Munster:

*Munster*
CC- Christian Cullen
DH - Doug Howlett
JP
RT - Rua Tipoki
NW - Nick Williams
TM
PB
ST
QM
TB - Tyler Bleyendaal
FS - Francis Saili
RM
TAT
PA

swiwi_ · 20-05-2019 6:15pm

troyzer wrote: »

Ireland is the only union which is financially stable as it is.

The southern hemisphere asking for a dig out when the likes of Wales and Scotland are bleeding players is just ridiculous. Wales have just had to completely reform their entire salary structure and there will inevitably be at least one team scrapped. Players still don't have contracts for next season.

Meanwhile it seems like every year that Scotland lose a marquee player overseas. This year it's Hogg, last year it was Russell and in the years before it included players like Richie Gray, Barclay and Laidlaw.

The north is not in a position to bail out the South. If people in the south don't give a **** enough to attend super rugby games then ultimately, that's the problem.

Though we can agree that the English and French are ****ing this up.

No-one in the the SH is asking for a handout. I think on the other hand the SH would be happy if the Celtic Unions got on board the World League idea. Ireland could end up in the Pro 14 much like the NZ Super Rugby sides in Super Rugby - only meaningful games are between each other. This season, there were 3 irish teams in the Pro 14 semi-finals for example. At the end of the day, UK and France have their captive home audiences. It'd be fair to say there are probably a growing number of SA ex-pats following the UK premiership. If Beauden Barrett, Ben Smith, Brodie Retallick, Richie Mo'Unga etc all played in the premiership, I'd quite possibly start watching it, especially if they were eligible for AB selection.

I fully expect the Celtic Unions to do an ostrich on this, but if International Rugby fades (at least outside of the 6N and the RWC), no-one watches the Pro 14 outside of the participating nations and the Heineken Cup is replaced by a Anglo-French cup, I doubt the forum would be overjoyed. TBH outside of international rugby, I basically only watch the Crusaders these days, a fair number of Leinster games, and a smattering elsewhere, although I watch highlights of the other NZ super rugby sides. The days of amazing games involving SA or Australian sides are pretty much gone.

troyzer · 20-05-2019 6:24pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

troyzer wrote: »

Ireland is the only union which is financially stable as it is.

The southern hemisphere asking for a dig out when the likes of Wales and Scotland are bleeding players is just ridiculous. Wales have just had to completely reform their entire salary structure and there will inevitably be at least one team scrapped. Players still don't have contracts for next season.

Meanwhile it seems like every year that Scotland lose a marquee player overseas. This year it's Hogg, last year it was Russell and in the years before it included players like Richie Gray, Barclay and Laidlaw.

The north is not in a position to bail out the South. If people in the south don't give a **** enough to attend super rugby games then ultimately, that's the problem.

Though we can agree that the English and French are ****ing this up.

No-one in the the SH is asking for a handout. I think on the other hand the SH would be happy if the Celtic Unions got on board the World League idea. Ireland could end up in the Pro 14 much like the NZ Super Rugby sides in Super Rugby - only meaningful games are between each other. This season, there were 3 irish teams in the Pro 14 semi-finals for example. At the end of the day, UK and France have their captive home audiences. It'd be fair to say there are probably a growing number of SA ex-pats following the UK premiership. If Beauden Barrett, Ben Smith, Brodie Retallick, Richie Mo'Unga etc all played in the premiership, I'd quite possibly start watching it, especially if they were eligible for AB selection.

I fully expect the Celtic Unions to do an ostrich on this, but if International Rugby fades (at least outside of the 6N and the RWC), no-one watches the Pro 14 outside of the participating nations and the Heineken Cup is replaced by a Anglo-French cup, I doubt the forum would be overjoyed. TBH outside of international rugby, I basically only watch the Crusaders these days, a fair number of Leinster games, and a smattering elsewhere, although I watch highlights of the other NZ super rugby sides. The days of amazing games involving SA or Australian sides are pretty much gone.

The world league is a handout. It's indirect and packaged but it is a handout.

It's the south asking the north to pool their much more valuable TV markets and throw the Six Nations under the bus. Asking Scotland to risk relegation whilst claiming the same risk would apply to a Rugby Championship with the US and Japan in it is so disingenuous.

The south only gains by a world league with nothing in return.

The Pro 14 does have problems but these aren't going to be fixed by having an international world league.

Asking the Celtic countries to pay for a problem which isn't of their making and is also hurting them is madness. The English and the French are the ones ****ing this up with rampant wage inflation. The world league doesn't even fix this. It just gives the south a little bit more money to try and keep players. But England and France will grow quicker and we'll probably be back to square one again only we've ruined the Six Nations in the process.

swiwi_ · 20-05-2019 6:47pm

aloooof wrote: »

Love this. I've made a decent start with Munster:
*Munster*
CC- Christian Cullen
DH - Doug Howlett
JP
RT - Rua Tipoki
NW - Nick Williams
TM
PB
ST
QM
TB - Tyler Bleyendaal
FS - Francis Saili
RM
TAT
PA

Choosing the hard ones first I see

. All the names are in chronological order if that helps.

Burkie1203 · 20-05-2019 7:09pm

Leinster
BW - ?????
DH - David Holwell
BW - Bryce Williams
IN - Isa Nacewa
CN - Clint Newland
MB - Mat Berquist
NW - Nathan White
MB - Michael Bent
JGP - Jamieson Gibson Park
JL - James Lowe

Buer · 20-05-2019 7:20pm

swiwi_ wrote:

Leinster BW DH BW IN CN MB NW MB JGP JL

Bryce Williams
David Holwell
Isa Nacewa
Clint Newland
Matt Berquist
Nathan White
Michael Bent
Jamison Gibson Park
James Lowe

I had to look up the other BW so I won't post the name.

swiwi_ · 20-05-2019 7:23pm

@Burkie @Buer.

Very good. If it’s any consolation the other BW I had never heard of.

sydthebeat · 20-05-2019 7:24pm

I think your missing one at Leinster.....

Buer · 20-05-2019 7:32pm

aloooof wrote: »

Love this. I've made a decent start with Munster:
*Munster*
CC- Christian Cullen
DH - Doug Howlett
JP
RT - Rua Tipoki
NW - Nick Williams
TM Toby Morland
PB Peter Borlase
ST Sam Tuitupou
QM Quentin MacDonald
TB - Tyler Bleyendaal
FS - Francis Saili
RM Rhys Marshall
TAT
PA

A few more.

Sheep Shagger · 20-05-2019 7:34pm

Munster new kit launched 22/5 at Lifestyle Sports - is that not really really early?

Leinster normally don't release images until July?

Buer · 20-05-2019 7:34pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

I think your missing one at Leinster.....

I had to check up on a few like Jowitt, Gissing etc. to make sure they hadn't made an appearance in Super Rugby. Keep in mind the rule of them playing for someone outside of NZ before coming to Ireland.

Thorn came from Japan if you're thinking of him.

sydthebeat · 20-05-2019 7:36pm

Te Aihe Toma

sydthebeat · 20-05-2019 7:37pm

Buer wrote: »

I had to check up on a few like Jowitt, Gissing etc. to make sure they hadn't made an appearance in Super Rugby. Keep in mind the rule of them playing for someone outside of NZ before coming to Ireland.

Thorn came from Japan if you're thinking of him.

Nope, the player I have in mind moved from the blues to leinster (according to newspaper reports at the time)

swiwi_ · 20-05-2019 7:44pm

Buer wrote: »

A few more.

Sam Tuitupou is incorrect...

pickarooney · 20-05-2019 7:44pm

Should JdV not be in that list?

swiwi_ · 20-05-2019 7:52pm

pickarooney wrote: »

Should JdV not be in that list?

Hmmm. Geography 101 for you Pickarooney...

Jump_In_Jack · 20-05-2019 8:05pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Sam Tuitupou is incorrect...

Savenaca Tokula, played centre for Munster in 2012 on loan for a few months at the end of the season.

Jump_In_Jack · 20-05-2019 8:10pm

aloooof wrote: »

Love this. I've made a decent start with Munster:
*Munster*
CC- Christian Cullen
DH - Doug Howlett
JP
RT - Rua Tipoki
NW - Nick Williams
TM
PB
ST
QM
TB - Tyler Bleyendaal
FS - Francis Saili
RM
TAT
PA

JP is Jake Paringatai, played backrow for Munster in 07/08, made 2 appearances.

FACECUTTR · 20-05-2019 8:15pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Since rugby turned professional in 1995, 37 NZ Super Rugby players have left NZ to join an Irish province. It doesn't include players who ended up in Ireland after heading elsewhere first (eg Jimmy Gopperth) nor those who never played Super Rugby (eg Rodney Ah You)

Connacht
NT
BU
GN
FV
CC
BA
TM
PA

It'd be a good effort to get your own province, let alone the whole list. There a few of these players I have either forgotten or never heard of. There are also players who subsequently moved to another Irish province.

Niva Tauoso
?
?
Fetu Vianokolo
Craig Clarke
Bundee Aki
Tom McCarthy
Pita Ahki
Can't figure out the other 2 without Google cheating

sydthebeat · 20-05-2019 8:21pm

GN has to be George neopu?

swiwi_ · 21-05-2019 12:09pm

I see George Smith has finally retired. No doubt even Jacothelad played a few games with George, he seems to have been around for ages.

awec · 21-05-2019 7:07pm

Buer wrote: »

Bryce Williams
David Holwell
Isa Nacewa
Clint Newland
Matt Berquist
Nathan White
Michael Bent
Jamison Gibson Park
James Lowe

I had to look up the other BW so I won't post the name.

Arguably Leinster's greatest ever import.

thomond2006 · 21-05-2019 9:01pm

John Hayes is a ligind. Next.

b.gud · 21-05-2019 9:29pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Connacht
NT
BU
GN
FV
CC
BA
TM
PA

2 can play at this game, amended list below

NT
BU
GN
FV
CC
MM
BA
TM
PA

swiwi_ · 21-05-2019 9:44pm

b.gud wrote: »

2 can play at this game, amended list below

NT
BU
GN
FV
CC
MM
BA
TM
PA

I think MM played for Ulster first, no? Unless it’s a different MM...?

sydthebeat · 21-05-2019 10:29pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

I think MM played for Ulster first, no? Unless it’s a different MM...?

The MM that he's thinking of ended up in zebre after connacht.

And your missing a Maori AB in the leinster list

joeguevara · 22-05-2019 2:14am

Any truth of rumors Ukster actively trying to recruit Israel Folau?

Buer · 22-05-2019 6:23am

sydthebeat wrote:

The MM that he's thinking of ended up in zebre after connacht.

And your missing a Maori AB in the leinster list

Both of those guys played in Japan. They had returned to NZ but I assume having had left NZ previously ruled them out?

sydthebeat · 22-05-2019 7:42am

Buer wrote: »

Both of those guys played in Japan. They had returned to NZ but I assume having had left NZ previously ruled them out?

Hummmm maybe.
I thought the criteria was just leaving a NZ team to go to a Irish team.

The above would make sense considering who's not on it

Buer · 22-05-2019 8:03am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Hummmm maybe.
I thought the criteria was just leaving a NZ team to go to a Irish team.

The above would make sense considering who's not on it

Lets blame Swiwi for his ambiguous guidelines:

players who ended up in Ireland after heading elsewhere first

swiwi_ · 22-05-2019 11:40am

FFS Buer. They weren’t « my »

guidelines they were what the lads at the Herald used when they drew up the list. It was a super rugby player whose very next career move after quitting super rugby in NZ was to join an Irish province. If they went elsewhere such as Japan first then they made the list as having headed to japan after NZ.

As an aside since rugby turned pro, 1 in every 2 NZ players end up overseas at a rate of about 20 players/season, most popular age to leave is 28, most popular destinations England, France and Japan.

sydthebeat · 22-05-2019 11:58am

swiwi_ wrote: »

It was a super rugby player whose very next career move after quitting super rugby in NZ was to join an Irish province. If they went elsewhere such as Japan first then they made the list as having headed to japan after NZ.
.

well then that would bring the two unmentioned back into the frame

is there any others not mentioned as well i wonder?

swiwi_ · 22-05-2019 12:10pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

well then that would bring the two unmentioned back into the frame

is there any others not mentioned as well i wonder?

Quite possibly. The Herald missed Craig Clarke, who I picked out, there are inevitably others that yourself and others can remember.

There are actually surpisingly few Kiwis who come directly Ireland, I would suggest even fewer now that the project player thing is esssentially finished and that the IRFU is, well, keen for Irish players to play for Ireland by coming through the Irish (English, Welsh

) academies.

At the end of the day, the irish provinces are not going to want to enter into a financial bidding war with other countries for a team full of kiwi mercenaries. I would suggest they will make well-targeted bids for a player of interest corresponding to an area of need in the provinces.

Barring a miracle, I expect Super Rugby to become an academy competition for SANZAAR pups before they head overseas, and I expect within 20 years the ABs will be forced to select outside NZ.

But we see.

Yeah_Right · 22-05-2019 12:40pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

FFS Buer. They weren’t « my » guidelines they were what the lads at the Herald used when they drew up the list. It was a super rugby player whose very next career move after quitting super rugby in NZ was to join an Irish province. If they went elsewhere such as Japan first then they made the list as having headed to japan after NZ.

As an aside since rugby turned pro, 1 in every 2 NZ players end up overseas at a rate of about 20 players/season, most popular age to leave is 28, most popular destinations England, France and Japan.

Just went to have a look at that article and I discover the Herald is now charging for most of its content :mad: **** you NZ Herald!!

yerrahbah · 22-05-2019 10:04pm

https://www.instagram.com/p/BxmtdBfhIlI/?utm_source=ig_embed&utm_campaign=embed_video_watch_again

Jean De Villiers knee, not for the squeamish :eek:

freak scence · 22-05-2019 11:36pm

https://twitter.com/i/status/1131311452437061633

crazy how ford is ahead of him in england setup

23-05-2019 7:11am

freak scence wrote: »

https://twitter.com/i/status/1131311452437061633

crazy how ford is ahead of him in england setup

Ford is a reliable pro.

pickarooney · 23-05-2019 7:24pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

Hmmm. Geography 101 for you Pickarooney...

I somehow missed NZ twice in the opening sentence

Melodeon · 23-05-2019 9:43pm

Item about concussion in schools rugby on Prime Time, RTE 1, right now!

razorblunt · 24-05-2019 8:18pm

Great to see Rob Horne looking well, whatever about the weight loss post playing, the muscle wastage of the right arm is shocking to see.

https://twitter.com/christianday/status/1131907125083611137?s=21

swiwi_ · 24-05-2019 9:25pm

pickarooney wrote: »

I somehow missed NZ twice in the opening sentence

You're not the first nor the last mon ami.

troyzer · 24-05-2019 9:42pm

swiwi_ wrote: »

pickarooney wrote: »

I somehow missed NZ twice in the opening sentence

You're not the first nor the last mon ami.

"New Zealand: Australia's Australia."

General Rugby Discussion II

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