Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Voting reform, Dail Scandal and Politican's greed [See post 172]

Options
1246

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    If we had a credible system of government and decent professional public representatives everyone involved would resign. They could even put it to the people by putting their name in the hat next election.

    A solution might be better people?


    In the UK they have a tradition of resigning at the drop of a hat. That works so well that politics has attracted the highest calibre of people like Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage and that Francois lad.

    We must be so jealous of them.


  • Options
    #93
    McMurphy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    blanch152 wrote: »
    In the UK they have a tradition of resigning at the drop of a hat. That works so well that politics has attracted the highest calibre of people like Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage and that Francois lad.

    We must be so jealous of them.

    This makes no sense at all Blanch, you're basically saying that because over in the UK, politicians are more accountable for their actions, and so resignations are more prevalent, because of this - their political scene attracts characters such as B.J Rees mogg and Francois etc.

    I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here.


  • Options
    #94
    johnnyskeleton
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,478 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Don’t they have their own politically correct bar back at hq? Or is that just the communists?

    Mod note:

    Serious posts only please. Posting purely to get a reaction from another poster is trolling


  • Options
    #95
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    If we had a credible system of government and decent professional public representatives everyone involved would resign. They could even put it to the people by putting their name in the hat next election.

    A solution might be better people?

    Alternatively you could try living in the real world. The entire system of government is base on the assumption that corruption will occur. That is why we have the doctrine of the separation of powers, an independent press (although that one is looking doggy these days) etc


  • Options
    #96
    looksee
    Registered Users Posts: 28,108 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    Why wouldn't they be paid for the job? If they were not paid the business of running the country would be limited to the wealthy who could support themselves, the fanatics who would not last long with no income, people prepared to take back handers to keep them going or people who regarded it as a part-time interest alongside whatever job was paying the bills. None of these would be desirable.

    Some people take advantage? Yes, of course they do, as in every aspect of life. In this case though the public have the ultimate solution - don't vote them in again if they are not performing.

    Unfortunately so many people vote on a basis of habit, who they are related to, lack of knowledge about the candidates (mea culpa generally) that this vital filtration system does not always work, but that is hardly the fault of the TDs.

    It is unfortunate that in a lot of cases the kind of personality you would like to have running the country is not the kind of personality that wishes to be a politician, but its hard to see a solution to that.

    One 'filter' comes to mind that might help, possibly, would be to have every person standing for election should fill in a standard statement, where all have to answer very specific questions relating to their background, experience, interests, political standpoint etc, in addition to their generalised promotional stuff, so that they can be compared like for like.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 13,164 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    This makes no sense at all Blanch, you're basically saying that because over in the UK, politicians are more accountable for their actions, and so resignations are more prevalent, because of this - their political scene attracts characters such as B.J Rees mogg and Francois etc.

    I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here.
    They were being sarcastic. It used to be the case that you'd have resignations, but now it's a complete joke. There are so many MPs in cabinet who've been forced to resign for serious breaches and are rewarded with cabinet seats almost immediately. Priti Patel being a case in point.


  • Options
    #98
    beggars_bush
    Registered Users Posts: 4,365 ✭✭✭beggars_bush


    Seems Enda Kenny doesn't bother to vote, even when he us in the building

    Yet can claim €47,000 in travel and accommodation costs


  • Options
    #99
    blanch152
    Registered Users Posts: 27,223 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Johnny Dogs wrote: »
    This makes no sense at all Blanch, you're basically saying that because over in the UK, politicians are more accountable for their actions, and so resignations are more prevalent, because of this - their political scene attracts characters such as B.J Rees mogg and Francois etc.

    I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here.


    What I am saying is that because of the resignation witch-hunt in the UK, they can’t attract decent people into politics because who in their right mind would put themselves through that. So they end up with Johnson et al.

    Those who laud the British system of resigning are usually the same posters who criticise the quality of their politicians.


  • Options
    #100
    Rvsmmnps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 151 ✭✭Rvsmmnps


    A solution is to not break the rules.
    I see some debating on rules layed out above,there really should be no debate its a sad state of affairs.

    When a TD is not present they do not and cannot vote. If a vote was cast and it was proven they were not present they should be sacked. And given seriousness of their job I believe a prosecution should follow.


  • Options
    #101
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    johnnyskeleton wrote: »
    Mod note:

    Serious posts only please. Posting purely to get a reaction from another poster is trolling

    I don't mind answering it
    blanch152 wrote: »
    Don’t they have their own politically correct bar back at hq? Or is that just the communists?

    The purpose of the Dail bar (and all the other trappings of the parliament) is to suck you into being dependent on electoral politics.

    Representative parliamentary democracy is not about giving people any democratic control over the government - it is about protecting the rule of the elites. I spent a couple of years representing the Socialist Party on various bodies established by the Dail - often having to attend steering committee meetings in the private restaurant in the Dail - fancy meals, unlimited alcohol, lavish expenses. On occasions I got up to €1,000 in expenses for attending a 2 hour meeting. The Socialist Party has a policy position that any representative, including elected representatives, cannot make any financial gain from positions they hold - I donated every penny of the extra expenses I received to the Socialist Party or working class campaigns.

    All of the political parties in the Dail - with the exception of Solidarity - are focused solely on electoral politics. They are interested in votes and how to get them - and nothing else. They get sucked into the system that is designed to protect the status quo and they become utterly dependent on it. Solidarity is not an electoral party - it is an activist party. If the parliamentary positions were to disappear tomorrow it would continue to be an activist party and would continue to have a major impact on the workers and community campaigns that it is involved in.

    The purpose of this is to suck you in - make you dependent on all the trappings of the Dail - the wages, the expenses, the backroom deals, the political donations from the wealthy so that you can compete in elections. All of the pro-capitalist parties in the Dail use and abuse the system to their advantage, in order to get into power so that they can then do the bidding of their political backers. It is exactly the same in every country in the world with a representative democracy.

    And when you don't toe the line and play the game the wealthy interests who fund the political establishment you will find that they fund your political opponents to get rid of you. A case in point - currently in Seattle there is a city council election (city council in the US have significant power in terms of running local government - effectively almost on a level with the Dail here). In 2015 the first socialist councillor was elected on over 100 years - Kshama Sawant of Socialist Alternative (sister party of the Socialist Party in the USA). Last year a measure passed by Seattle council known as a 'head tax' - it was a tax on large corporations based on their number of employees in the city and was to be used to fund homeless services (there are currently 12,500 people in Seattle living on the streets or in shelters) and the building of affordable housing. Amazon - with the support of the other corporations - buried the tax in an avalanche of propaganda, forcing the council to reverse the decision. Kshama Sawant was one of two councillors to oppose the reversal of the tax.

    The city council elections are currently taking place in Seattle. Amazon and the chamber of commerce PAC are pumping $millions into defeating Kshama Sawant and some other 'progressive' candidates. This week alone Amazon pumped over $1million into the PAC - most of it targeted against Sawant. On an individual level, the Amazon 'S Team' - 11 top Amazon executives - have also made personal donations amounting to $millions, including $1.5million from Bezos. $millions are being spent in an effort to defeat a socialist candidate IN A CITY COUNCIL election. The attempt by Amazon and the elites to buy the Seattle City Council has now become a national issue with Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren repeatedly attacking the antics of Bezos, Amazon and the other corporate elites in Seattle.

    This is how the system works - in Seattle and in Ireland - if you upset the apple cart expect to be targeted by the elites and they will do their best to brow-beat you into submission.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    I
    This is how the system works - in Seattle and in Ireland - if you upset the apple cart expect to be targeted by the elites and they will do their best to brow-beat you into submission.

    A meaningful post would include your actual thoughts and impressions as repeating the same old claptrap we continually hear from the the socialist movements... yes we know there will is some magical elite out there that is preventing you from getting your message across and if you only could, we’d all be believers....

    Except they don’t need to... once you start repeating the mantra, you turn most of the people off and then you loose most of the remaining listeners because they are far to political aware and understand that the basic problem with your ideas is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.

    That is the problem for socialism, they do very poorly in countries that have a sovereign people as opposed to a sovereign parliament - Switzerland and Ireland being the best examples. Voters in these countries are used to having to deal with the complex issues themselves rather than having politicians decide on their behalf, that makes them more politically aware and that’s bad new for socialism!


  • Options
    #103
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    looksee wrote: »
    Some people take advantage? Yes, of course they do, as in every aspect of life. In this case though the public have the ultimate solution - don't vote them in again if they are not performing.

    Yes some people seem to forget or fail to realize that the constitution is framed on the assumption that people are likely to take advantage of the situation. It is not by accident that we have a separation of powers into three branches of government, a President who must be over thirty five, is the CINC of the defense forces and is responsible for defending the constitution, in is not by accident that people have a right to challenge the constitution in court...

    We put all the checks and balances into the system because we fully expect that corruption will occur, but we also expect that there will be a “few good men” as the saying goes that will raise the red flag. The fact that people are getting caught and we are hearing about it means that the system is working and we can have confidence in it. In fact if we were hearing nothing then that would be when we should be worried, very worried.


  • Options
    #104
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Jolly Red Giant wrote:
    The purpose of the Dail bar (and all the other trappings of the parliament) is to suck you into being dependent on electoral politics.

    So what you saying is that you are anti democracy. Politicians are dependent on the electorate and in any democracy always should be. They should always be encouraged to meet the electorate and bringing them to the Dail to view the Dail in action should be heavily encouraged. Entertaining them in the Dail afterwards should not be an issue. Having a parliament and the separation of powers enshrined in the constitution is critically important as another poster has explained.

    For the bar itself politicians and everyone else working in the Dail are entitled to some sort of canteen. It's not unusual for organisations of a decent size to offer a subsidised canteen. Now whether it is appropriate to sell alcohol for me is debatable but you are always going to have a Dail bar/canteen/whatever exact name you want to call it.


  • Options
    #105
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Interesting the way a comment on TD's not paying their bar tabs became a fevered, in one case, attack on members of the left, who don't use the bar.
    The chap who grabbed the female colleague onto his lap, because he'd been drinking would be enough to either take away the whip or close the bar during voting, if they can't control themselves, IMO.


  • Options
    #106
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    Alternatively you could try living in the real world. The entire system of government is base on the assumption that corruption will occur. That is why we have the doctrine of the separation of powers, an independent press (although that one is looking doggy these days) etc

    In the real world politicians in disgrace often resign. It's a good sign of character. Nothing you say here speaks to that.


  • Options
    #107
    PeadarCo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,915 ✭✭✭PeadarCo


    Matt Barrett wrote:
    Interesting the way a comment on TD's not paying their bar tabs became a fevered, in one case, attack on members of the left, who don't use the bar. The chap who grabbed the female colleague onto his lap, because he'd been drinking would be enough to either take away the whip or close the bar during voting, if they can't control themselves, IMO.

    My issue with Jolly Red Giants post is that it suggests that the reason the far left avoid the Dail bar is because they don't want dissaprove of democracy full stop ie they dissaprove of one person one vote, separation of powers, politicians engaging with the electorate etc, ie the far left support dictatorship.

    The stuff you mention while not correct do not target the fundamental pillars of our personal freedoms and democracy


  • Options
    #108
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,529 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    On occasions I got up to €1,000 in expenses for attending a 2 hour meeting.

    I do note you are happy to make expense claims and accept the cash, rather than leave it with revenue to fund public services.


  • Options
    #109
    noodler
    Registered Users Posts: 26,245 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Can't just give themselves pay rises either.

    Any increases are linked to those of the wider public sector, specifically Principal Officers in the civil service.

    Any article you ever read, or ranted about, complaining about a politician getting a pay rise was linked to general PS wage agreements.


  • Options
    #110
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,015 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    My issue with Jolly Red Giants post is that it suggests that the reason the far left avoid the Dail bar is because they don't want dissaprove of democracy full stop ie they dissaprove of one person one vote, separation of powers, politicians engaging with the electorate etc, ie the far left support dictatorship.

    The stuff you mention while not correct do not target the fundamental pillars of our personal freedoms and democracy

    Wasn't commenting on your post at all Peadar. The initial comment was on TD's bar tabs going unpaid.
    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    I do note you are happy to make expense claims and accept the cash, rather than leave it with revenue to fund public services.

    They could pull a FG and neglect to pay any taxes for nine years.


  • Options
    #111
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,767 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    it seems in germany they have to press a foot pedal and the vote button to stop people just leaning over and pressing buttons https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/justice-minister-suggests-dail-examine-german-system-in-vote-gate-review-959463.html if they used fingerprint recognition they wouldn't need to sit a specific seat.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,767 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    Tea Shock wrote: »
    I don't see anything about in in SO 73

    SO 77 to me is a better one. But again, the rules are very loosely outlined



    The rules need to be tightened - and they need to be given longer than 60 seconds to cast their vote when doing so electronically.
    why do they need more time? if they are in their seats? ( i think the whole process needs more time ,ie for the tellers to check)


    the Dail standing orders are written in such an unclear way, does it say they have 2 minutes to get to their seats once the doors are locked? s71 page 38

    https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/parliamentaryBusiness/standingOrders/dail/2019/2019-01-11_consolidated-dail-eireann-standing-orders-january-2019_en.pdf


  • Options
    #113
    expectationlost
    Registered Users Posts: 11,767 ✭✭✭✭expectationlost


    now that we getting all environmental one could base constituencies on watersheds, its called bioregionalism


  • Options
    #114
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    PR List seems like the optimal solution for me. Reduces the effect of parish pump while still allowing people to vote for that good local TD who gets things done while not giving all your vote to their party.


  • Options
    #115
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,816 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    PR List seems like the optimal solution for me. Reduces the effect of parish pump while still allowing people to vote for that good local TD who gets things done while not giving all your vote to their party.

    Do you mean the incredibly awkward version where you vote for specific people but the seat allocation is then done on a PR basis?

    That loses the party preferential element which is critical. I haven't seen a list variant with party transference. The Australian system has (mostly had, its being removed) "lists" but is actually just STV with the option of trusting a party or independent candidate to decide your transfers for you.


  • Options
    #116
    is_that_so
    Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    L1011 wrote: »
    7-9 seat constituencies, retain current population to TD ratio. NI only counts marginally differently, I'm not sure it's worth it - the rest is the same
    That ratio is in the constitution anyway. Larger constituencies would also mean crossing over into different counties. That might not go down too well. To do that you'd need the Dail to pass legislation and there's a phrase about turkeys and Christmas that springs to mind. The next best thing is partial lists, with prospective nominees known in advance and voting on top 1-2 seats as we are now.


  • Options
    #117
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    If the goal is to remove parish pump politics changing the voting system is not the right way to go about it.

    Look at the 2 most obvious examples of this type of politics: The Healy-Rayes and Michael Lowry. Since they top the polls in every election they are going to prosper regardless of what voting system you have in place.

    The root of the problem is that county and city councils are toothless. All od the real power is in Dublin. This has opened up a loophole whereby there is a market for the sort of politician to prosper at a national level who should ideally only be elected at a local level.

    If you want to reduce parish pump politics you’d need therefore to devolve more powers to local councils. Personally I’d be in favour of this. I would also be in favour of paying councillors a living wage rather than the stipend that they currently earn. Perhaps we would then see an increase in the quality of councillors as well as a reduction in the number of TDs in the Dail who have zero interest in national legislation.


  • Options
    #118
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    A meaningful post would include your actual thoughts and impressions as repeating the same old claptrap we continually hear from the the socialist movements...
    Just because you don't agree with it doesn't make it claptrap.
    Jim2007 wrote: »
    That is the problem for socialism, they do very poorly in countries that have a sovereign people as opposed to a sovereign parliament - Switzerland and Ireland being the best examples. Voters in these countries are used to having to deal with the complex issues themselves rather than having politicians decide on their behalf, that makes them more politically aware and that’s bad new for socialism!
    I agree that Irish people are smart, can deal with complex questions and have political savvy - they proved it in telling the government to get stuffed over water charges - and again in voting for repeal based on a liberal abortion regime.


  • Options
    #119
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    So what you saying is that you are anti democracy.
    Writing a few numbers on a ballot paper every few years is not democracy - I am in favour of participatory democracy based on workplace and community based committees
    PeadarCo wrote: »
    Politicians are dependent on the electorate and in any democracy always should be. They should always be encouraged to meet the electorate and bringing them to the Dail to view the Dail in action should be heavily encouraged. Entertaining them in the Dail afterwards should not be an issue. Having a parliament and the separation of powers enshrined in the constitution is critically important as another poster has explained.
    No they are not - they are dependent on how much money they can raise and how much support they can get from the media (national and local). There is a reason why a handful of very wealthy people control most of the media in this country.
    PeadarCo wrote: »
    For the bar itself politicians and everyone else working in the Dail are entitled to some sort of canteen. It's not unusual for organisations of a decent size to offer a subsidised canteen. Now whether it is appropriate to sell alcohol for me is debatable but you are always going to have a Dail bar/canteen/whatever exact name you want to call it.
    The Dail bar is not a canteen - there is a separate (highly subsidised) restaurant for food - the Dail bar is used to ply people with drink and do backroom deals.


  • Options
    #120
    Jolly Red Giant
    Registered Users Posts: 3,434 ✭✭✭Jolly Red Giant


    PeadarCo wrote: »
    My issue with Jolly Red Giants post is that it suggests that the reason the far left avoid the Dail bar is because they don't want dissaprove of democracy full stop ie they dissaprove of one person one vote, separation of powers, politicians engaging with the electorate etc, ie the far left support dictatorship.

    The stuff you mention while not correct do not target the fundamental pillars of our personal freedoms and democracy
    The only people who have 'personal freedoms' are those who have the money to afford them -

    Solidarity members don't use the Dail bar because it is one more mechanism for sucking people into being dependent on a political system designed to preserve the rule of the elites.
    Topgear on Dave wrote: »
    I do note you are happy to make expense claims and accept the cash, rather than leave it with revenue to fund public services.
    The committees I was a representative on had a budget - the money was never going to be used for public services - it would have been used to buy more of the $40-$50 bottles of wine used for the committee dinners.

    The difference between me and the rest of the political (and lay) representatives there - is that I did not use the money for my personal use or to line my own pocket (in fact - apart from the staff - I was the only one who wasn't exploiting the system for personal gain).


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    dulpit
    Registered Users Posts: 10,350 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    Jolly Red Giant wrote: »
    The difference between me and the rest of the political (and lay) representatives there - is that I did not use the money for my personal use or to line my own pocket (in fact - apart from the staff - I was the only one who wasn't exploiting the system for personal gain).

    But you did use it for personal use. You chose to donate it to your party. It's the same claptrap the shinners used come out with about taking the industrial wage, but actually took the whole salary and just donated it to party. If you really believed in it, leave the money behind for the exchequer to use...


Advertisement