Voting reform, Dail Scandal and Politican's greed [See post 172]

is_that_so · 24-10-2019 1:29pm

L1011 wrote: »

And slow everything down, and give opportunities for politicking (SF sometimes call for walk-through votes on things they've clearly lost for this reason)

Well, if they can't do the basics right, I'm all for it as a punishment!

L1011 · 24-10-2019 1:30pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Well, if they can't do the basics right, I'm all for it as a punishment!

Delaying legislative passage punishes us not them

is_that_so · 24-10-2019 1:32pm

L1011 wrote: »

Delaying legislative passage punishes us not them

By what, 15 minutes?

James Brown · 24-10-2019 1:59pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

They should have an ID card that they insert into the machine then they vote

You'll just have some poor junior with a stack of cards.

riddlinrussell · 24-10-2019 2:40pm

I was offering up the Scottish system for an example, I'm not massively well versed in its pros/cons personally.

I accept the idea in principle of being able to always reject/accept a specific candidate, but I don't think such a system would ever eliminate the parish pump, making the constituency bigger and changing the boundaries just makes the parish look different, it doesn't prevent representatives from naked compromising of their party position or foolish grandstanding to guarantee themselves votes in their area.

Would be interesting to see which democratic system is generally considered 'the best' on balance.

Jim2007 · 24-10-2019 3:19pm

Gerry G wrote: »

Of course it's corruption if no action is taken. The initial crime is a fraud too. If I walked in to a ballot box and voted for you it's a crime. I can't see the difference here. Cowboys, every last one of them

It is neither corruption nor fraud. And if you voted on someone else's behalf you not be charged under a made you law that you invented either.

Jim2007 · 24-10-2019 3:23pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

As in the title, given the apparent issues the country has with 'parish pump' politicians.

Which issues exactly are you talking about how exactly do you expect changing the voting system would change things.

In general people are happy with the voting system, except of course those minorities that have convicted themselves that it somehow does not represent the real public, and on two occasions have to retain it, so you'd what to present some very good arguments in order to be take seriously.

riddlinrussell · 24-10-2019 3:32pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

Which issues exactly are you talking about how exactly do you expect changing the voting system would change things.

In general people are happy with the voting system, except of course those minorities that have convicted themselves that it somehow does not represent the real public, and on two occasions have to retain it, so you'd what to present some very good arguments in order to be take seriously.

As an example (not to recommend any specific system of governance), Eamonn Ryan, has regularly come out with statements on things such as building heights in his constituency and unrealistic public transport ideas for his constituency which make the entire Green party look utterly detached from reality (not claiming this isn't a general issue with the Green's), while simultaneously making him look like a hypocrite by calling for High rise in cities, just not the parts of cities that his voters live in.

blanch152 · 24-10-2019 3:49pm

Gerry G wrote: »

Of course it's corruption if no action is taken. The initial crime is a fraud too. If I walked in to a ballot box and voted for you it's a crime. I can't see the difference here. Cowboys, every last one of them

The difference is there is legislation deeming that if you walked to a ballot box and voted instead of someone else, that is a crime.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1992/act/23/section/134/enacted/en/html#sec134

There is no such legislation that I am aware of that deems Dooley and Collins' actions to be a crime. Yes, they are illegal, but not everything illegal is a crime. There needs to be a crime to be a garda investigation.

L1011 · 24-10-2019 3:51pm

is_that_so wrote: »

By what, 15 minutes?

Multiple times a day. It adds up very, very considerably which is why we replaced it

blanch152 · 24-10-2019 3:51pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

Apologies I got my numbers mixed up. The point I was making the rules do not allow for one member to vote for another but by the same token they do not expressly forbid it. Maybe the author of the standing orders would have thought it was obvious you don't vote on behalf of another TD. Clearly they were wrong, our TD's are like children that need to have things spelt out in very clear terms.

Correct.

If Dooley is in the Dail, chamber and says to Collins that he is voting yes, would you press the button for me, he technically may be within the rules.

What is surprising in this case is that Dooley wasn't in the chamber and is therefore clearly in breach of the Standing Order.

L1011 · 24-10-2019 3:52pm

Scottish system has parish pump++ due to the single member local seats and absolute headcases getting in via the additional member lists. It doesn't solve anything

National lists in theory eliminate the parish pump but absolutely guarantee parties will put odious candidates mid list and plenty will get in. And it strips preferentiality from it

We have quite a good system, vastly superior to Scotland as well as many other neighbours. If it was all 5 seats or indeed larger it'd be better; as would breaking away from the GAA/council borders more

riddlinrussell · 24-10-2019 4:04pm

L1011 wrote: »

Scottish system has parish pump++ due to the single member local seats and absolute headcases getting in via the additional member lists. It doesn't solve anything

National lists in theory eliminate the parish pump but absolutely guarantee parties will put odious candidates mid list and plenty will get in. And it strips preferentiality from it

We have quite a good system, vastly superior to Scotland as well as many other neighbours. If it was all 5 seats or indeed larger it'd be better; as would breaking away from the GAA/council borders more

Broadly agree with you on the boundary changes etc being a good thing, should probably change with each census (say, once census analysis is competed). If it was to change regularly enough it would reduce the risk of establishing an 'area' that look at all others as getting a better deal than they do etc.

So if mixed member doesn't work what would you change about the actual system itself? (e.g. how votes are counted, ideal constituency size and number of representatives, rather than the boundary changes etc that would be a good start)

Also would you want to see the exact same system retained in the event of a United Ireland, or some hybrid of the two formats of STV currently in use?

Tea Shock · 24-10-2019 4:04pm

What would people think of having 158 one-seat constituencies instead of 40 constituencies that are 3,4 or 5 seats?

On one hand, particularly in rural locations, it may increase the parish-pump factor

On the other hand, it would remove the situation where an entire county in the shadow of a larger neighbor gets zero TDs in the Dail (e.g. Carlow in the past)

L1011 · 24-10-2019 4:26pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Broadly agree with you on the boundary changes etc being a good thing, should probably change with each census (say, once census analysis is competed). If it was to change regularly enough it would reduce the risk of establishing an 'area' that look at all others as getting a better deal than they do etc.

So if mixed member doesn't work what would you change about the actual system itself? (e.g. how votes are counted, ideal constituency size and number of representatives, rather than the boundary changes etc that would be a good start)

Also would you want to see the exact same system retained in the event of a United Ireland, or some hybrid of the two formats of STV currently in use?

7-9 seat constituencies, retain current population to TD ratio. NI only counts marginally differently, I'm not sure it's worth it - the rest is the same

is_that_so · 24-10-2019 5:40pm

L1011 wrote: »

Multiple times a day. It adds up very, very considerably which is why we replaced it

Still very little time in the grand scheme of things. I didn't say we should go back to it but if they can't master rules around simple buttons it should be an option.

Jolly Red Giant · 24-10-2019 8:40pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Relax, it's cross party.

Not actually - all parties do not abuse the system - only those who have a habit of abusing people in the first place.

James Brown · 24-10-2019 8:44pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Not actually - all parties do not abuse the system - only those who have a habit of abusing people in the first place.

Which parties did pay all their bar tabs?

L1011 · 24-10-2019 9:36pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Still very little time in the grand scheme of things. I didn't say we should go back to it but if they can't master rules around simple buttons it should be an option.

It would be entire days over the course of a Government.

McMurphy · 24-10-2019 9:43pm

L1011 wrote: »

Multiple times a day. It adds up very, very considerably which is why we replaced it

Thumb/Fingerprint reader.

Even our shower of chancers aren't that carless that they'd leave home without or misplace their hands.

Nigh on impossible to circumvent or abuse.

Job done.

blanch152 · 24-10-2019 9:46pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Thumb/Fingerprint reader.

Even our shower of chancers aren't that carless that they'd leave home without or misplace their hands.

Nigh on impossible to circumvent or abuse.

Job done.

Wouldn't pass GDPR. Fingerprint information is sensitive personal data. You would have to prove you really need it.

GarIT · 24-10-2019 9:50pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Wouldn't pass GDPR. Fingerprint information is sensitive personal data. You would have to prove you really need it.

Complete nonsense. You would have to prove there is a business case for using it. "It is used to verify identity" Problem solved.

GarIT · 24-10-2019 9:53pm

I do honestly believe this should be quite a serious crime. Whether it is or isn't at the moment I don't know. Elected officials voting in somebody else's name, a life sentence wouldn't be far from what's due.

KaneToad · 24-10-2019 9:58pm

GarIT wrote: »

I do honestly believe this should be quite a serious crime. Whether it is or isn't at the moment I don't know. Elected officials voting in somebody else's name, a life sentence wouldn't be far from what's due.

A life sentence, ah here!

It's not a crime. They were asking others to press their button for them, in their absence. It was shoddy, lazy behaviour but no fraud is committed. I'm no fan of Dooley but I think it is being blown out of proportion. Procedures need to be tightened up, that should be the end of it.

McMurphy · 24-10-2019 10:01pm

blanch152 wrote: »

Wouldn't pass GDPR. Fingerprint information is sensitive personal data. You would have to prove you really need it.

Ye what?

Cmon, this GDPR stuff attempted to be used by people as some magic bullet is getting beyond ridiculous.

I know we have a contact with a major retailer in the country and I access my goods within their premises via their fingerprint recognition system that they've only recently had installed.

All the staff (prob 500) all use it too

They're fingerprints, pretty hard to replicate and hardly easily identifiable to everyday civilians.

Jolly Red Giant · 24-10-2019 11:00pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Which parties did pay all their bar tabs?

Not all parties waste their time in the Dail bar.

blanch152 · 24-10-2019 11:55pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

Ye what?

Cmon, this GDPR stuff attempted to be used by people as some magic bullet is getting beyond ridiculous.

I know we have a contact with a major retailer in the country and I access my goods within their premises via their fingerprint recognition system that they've only recently had installed.

All the staff (prob 500) all use it too

They're fingerprints, pretty hard to replicate and hardly easily identifiable to everyday civilians.

And depending on the opportunity to cause criminal damage and the security needs, that food retailer may well be justified under GDPR.

That doesn’t mean it is justified in the Dail. Each situation has to be considered on its merits, and if there are less invasive ways of carrying out the business e.g. the old lobby system or electronic button voting, then they should be used.

careless sherpa · 25-10-2019 5:57am

blanch152 wrote: »

And depending on the opportunity to cause criminal damage and the security needs, that food retailer may well be justified under GDPR.

That doesn’t mean it is justified in the Dail. Each situation has to be considered on its merits, and if there are less invasive ways of carrying out the business e.g. the old lobby system or electronic button voting, then they should be used.

Might be better to replace them with a bunch of monkeys. We could train them to push buttons more effectively

GarIT · 25-10-2019 11:21am

KaneToad wrote: »

A life sentence, ah here!

It's not a crime. They were asking others to press their button for them, in their absence. It was shoddy, lazy behaviour but no fraud is committed. I'm no fan of Dooley but I think it is being blown out of proportion. Procedures need to be tightened up, that should be the end of it.

As I said I don't know whether it currently is a crime. I would have a lot more leniency where the person being voted on behalf of was in the building and had requested it. If it was as has been reported in at least one of the cases where the person being voted for was not in the building and/or was not aware they were being voted for then it is casting votes that wouldn't have otherwise been cast, which is manipulating dail votes, which should carry a mandatory life sentence in my opinion.

uck51js9zml2yt · 25-10-2019 11:25am

Gerry G wrote: »

So they just get away Scot free again after committing fraud. Where will the corruption end??

It will stop when we stop voting them into power.

But of course we all know that will never happen.

Just look at Lowry and Mick Wallace. He robs his employees and the state, declares bankruptcy and we give him a promotion to Europe.
As for Lowry, he keeps topping the poll.
We need to stop pretending we care....as a nation, we don't!

Infernal Racket · 25-10-2019 12:02pm

Ailani Thankful Riot wrote: »

It will stop when we stop voting them into power.

But of course we all know that will never happen.

Just look at Lowry and Mick Wallace. He robs his employees and the state, declares bankruptcy and we give him a promotion to Europe.
As for Lowry, he keeps topping the poll.
We need to stop pretending we care....as a nation, we don't!

So who do we vote for?? Every single party is full of ****ehawks. And the indos are no better

uck51js9zml2yt · 25-10-2019 12:06pm

Gerry G wrote: »

So who do we vote for?? Every single party is full of ****ehawks. And the indos are no better

None of the above might be a start.
Time to send a message to the politicians that we've had enough and that honesty and integrity are important in all walks of life.

If we don't vote then we might get people putting themselves forward who are honest for a change.

ednwireland · 25-10-2019 12:12pm

the fact is that TDs have been found out and cant be trusted to follow rules set in the constitution. there should be some sort of wireless card that enables the button when you go to vote. I'm sure that is available. however this been public sector and gov it would cost millions to implement.

uck51js9zml2yt · 25-10-2019 1:55pm

It wouldn't happen here.

A Japanese minister resigns for breaking the law regarding the giving of gifts and the PM apologies and takes responsibility for appointing him.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50178408

James Brown · 25-10-2019 1:58pm

If we had a credible system of government and decent professional public representatives everyone involved would resign. They could even put it to the people by putting their name in the hat next election.

A solution might be better people?

James Brown · 25-10-2019 2:05pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Not all parties waste their time in the Dail bar.

I was speaking on not paying the bar tab. I like the sound of these people though, if such a party exists.

dub_skav · 25-10-2019 3:20pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

It was suggested before but the claim was they would lose the card.
Very simple solution, fingerprint scanner at their seat. They won't lose their hand unless in an unfortunate accident.

Have an ID card that is used for only 2 purposes; voting and as their bar tab.
They'll never lose it and never trust anybody else with it

Scott Tenorman · 25-10-2019 6:33pm

dub_skav wrote: »

Have an ID card that is used for only 2 purposes; voting and as their bar tab.
They'll never lose it and never trust anybody else with it

It’s not like they all pay their bar tab either!

Jolly Red Giant · 25-10-2019 11:10pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

I was speaking on not paying the bar tab. I like the sound of these people though, if such a party exists.

Solidarity TDs (and staff) do not use the Dail bar.

blanch152 · 25-10-2019 11:35pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

Solidarity TDs (and staff) do not use the Dail bar.

Don’t they have their own politically correct bar back at hq? Or is that just the communists?

blanch152 · 25-10-2019 11:37pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If we had a credible system of government and decent professional public representatives everyone involved would resign. They could even put it to the people by putting their name in the hat next election.

A solution might be better people?

In the UK they have a tradition of resigning at the drop of a hat. That works so well that politics has attracted the highest calibre of people like Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage and that Francois lad.

We must be so jealous of them.

McMurphy · 26-10-2019 10:54am

blanch152 wrote: »

In the UK they have a tradition of resigning at the drop of a hat. That works so well that politics has attracted the highest calibre of people like Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage and that Francois lad.

We must be so jealous of them.

This makes no sense at all Blanch, you're basically saying that because over in the UK, politicians are more accountable for their actions, and so resignations are more prevalent, because of this - their political scene attracts characters such as B.J Rees mogg and Francois etc.

I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here.

johnnyskeleton · 26-10-2019 11:29am

blanch152 wrote: »

Don’t they have their own politically correct bar back at hq? Or is that just the communists?

Mod note:

Serious posts only please. Posting purely to get a reaction from another poster is trolling

Jim2007 · 26-10-2019 12:09pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

If we had a credible system of government and decent professional public representatives everyone involved would resign. They could even put it to the people by putting their name in the hat next election.

A solution might be better people?

Alternatively you could try living in the real world. The entire system of government is base on the assumption that corruption will occur. That is why we have the doctrine of the separation of powers, an independent press (although that one is looking doggy these days) etc

looksee · 26-10-2019 12:21pm

Why wouldn't they be paid for the job? If they were not paid the business of running the country would be limited to the wealthy who could support themselves, the fanatics who would not last long with no income, people prepared to take back handers to keep them going or people who regarded it as a part-time interest alongside whatever job was paying the bills. None of these would be desirable.

Some people take advantage? Yes, of course they do, as in every aspect of life. In this case though the public have the ultimate solution - don't vote them in again if they are not performing.

Unfortunately so many people vote on a basis of habit, who they are related to, lack of knowledge about the candidates (mea culpa generally) that this vital filtration system does not always work, but that is hardly the fault of the TDs.

It is unfortunate that in a lot of cases the kind of personality you would like to have running the country is not the kind of personality that wishes to be a politician, but its hard to see a solution to that.

One 'filter' comes to mind that might help, possibly, would be to have every person standing for election should fill in a standard statement, where all have to answer very specific questions relating to their background, experience, interests, political standpoint etc, in addition to their generalised promotional stuff, so that they can be compared like for like.

prawnsambo · 26-10-2019 1:12pm

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

This makes no sense at all Blanch, you're basically saying that because over in the UK, politicians are more accountable for their actions, and so resignations are more prevalent, because of this - their political scene attracts characters such as B.J Rees mogg and Francois etc.

I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here.

They were being sarcastic. It used to be the case that you'd have resignations, but now it's a complete joke. There are so many MPs in cabinet who've been forced to resign for serious breaches and are rewarded with cabinet seats almost immediately. Priti Patel being a case in point.

beggars_bush · 26-10-2019 6:08pm

Seems Enda Kenny doesn't bother to vote, even when he us in the building

Yet can claim €47,000 in travel and accommodation costs

blanch152 · 27-10-2019 12:27am

Johnny Dogs wrote: »

This makes no sense at all Blanch, you're basically saying that because over in the UK, politicians are more accountable for their actions, and so resignations are more prevalent, because of this - their political scene attracts characters such as B.J Rees mogg and Francois etc.

I'm not sure I follow your train of thought here.

What I am saying is that because of the resignation witch-hunt in the UK, they can’t attract decent people into politics because who in their right mind would put themselves through that. So they end up with Johnson et al.

Those who laud the British system of resigning are usually the same posters who criticise the quality of their politicians.

Rvsmmnps · 27-10-2019 6:13am

A solution is to not break the rules.
I see some debating on rules layed out above,there really should be no debate its a sad state of affairs.

When a TD is not present they do not and cannot vote. If a vote was cast and it was proven they were not present they should be sacked. And given seriousness of their job I believe a prosecution should follow.

Jolly Red Giant · 27-10-2019 11:27am

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Mod note:

Serious posts only please. Posting purely to get a reaction from another poster is trolling

I don't mind answering it

blanch152 wrote: »

Don’t they have their own politically correct bar back at hq? Or is that just the communists?

The purpose of the Dail bar (and all the other trappings of the parliament) is to suck you into being dependent on electoral politics.

Representative parliamentary democracy is not about giving people any democratic control over the government - it is about protecting the rule of the elites. I spent a couple of years representing the Socialist Party on various bodies established by the Dail - often having to attend steering committee meetings in the private restaurant in the Dail - fancy meals, unlimited alcohol, lavish expenses. On occasions I got up to €1,000 in expenses for attending a 2 hour meeting. The Socialist Party has a policy position that any representative, including elected representatives, cannot make any financial gain from positions they hold - I donated every penny of the extra expenses I received to the Socialist Party or working class campaigns.

All of the political parties in the Dail - with the exception of Solidarity - are focused solely on electoral politics. They are interested in votes and how to get them - and nothing else. They get sucked into the system that is designed to protect the status quo and they become utterly dependent on it. Solidarity is not an electoral party - it is an activist party. If the parliamentary positions were to disappear tomorrow it would continue to be an activist party and would continue to have a major impact on the workers and community campaigns that it is involved in.

The purpose of this is to suck you in - make you dependent on all the trappings of the Dail - the wages, the expenses, the backroom deals, the political donations from the wealthy so that you can compete in elections. All of the pro-capitalist parties in the Dail use and abuse the system to their advantage, in order to get into power so that they can then do the bidding of their political backers. It is exactly the same in every country in the world with a representative democracy.

And when you don't toe the line and play the game the wealthy interests who fund the political establishment you will find that they fund your political opponents to get rid of you. A case in point - currently in Seattle there is a city council election (city council in the US have significant power in terms of running local government - effectively almost on a level with the Dail here). In 2015 the first socialist councillor was elected on over 100 years - Kshama Sawant of Socialist Alternative (sister party of the Socialist Party in the USA). Last year a measure passed by Seattle council known as a 'head tax' - it was a tax on large corporations based on their number of employees in the city and was to be used to fund homeless services (there are currently 12,500 people in Seattle living on the streets or in shelters) and the building of affordable housing. Amazon - with the support of the other corporations - buried the tax in an avalanche of propaganda, forcing the council to reverse the decision. Kshama Sawant was one of two councillors to oppose the reversal of the tax.

The city council elections are currently taking place in Seattle. Amazon and the chamber of commerce PAC are pumping $millions into defeating Kshama Sawant and some other 'progressive' candidates. This week alone Amazon pumped over $1million into the PAC - most of it targeted against Sawant. On an individual level, the Amazon 'S Team' - 11 top Amazon executives - have also made personal donations amounting to $millions, including $1.5million from Bezos. $millions are being spent in an effort to defeat a socialist candidate IN A CITY COUNCIL election. The attempt by Amazon and the elites to buy the Seattle City Council has now become a national issue with Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren repeatedly attacking the antics of Bezos, Amazon and the other corporate elites in Seattle.

This is how the system works - in Seattle and in Ireland - if you upset the apple cart expect to be targeted by the elites and they will do their best to brow-beat you into submission.

Voting reform, Dail Scandal and Politican's greed [See post 172]

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