New Houses Kilcock

ixus · 22-11-2017 1:01pm

I just drove by and its worse than i imagined. A major river with little or no embankment. Lethal for anyone, especially kids, who went near it.

In shock really. Imagine 2/3 days of rainfall like this.

Graham · 22-11-2017 1:06pm

Looks like it's working as intended so far, too early to call it I guess.

Sposs · 22-11-2017 1:28pm

It's well known it's built on a flood plain, that area has always flooded, at least buyers can get their money back now before completing.

marieholmfan · 22-11-2017 2:04pm

Graham wrote: »

Is it necessary to be a hydrological engineer to recognise water doesn't flow uphill for 2 miles?

Water flows downhill -- if it was draining into Millerstown it isn't draining there now.

Kildare Co Co should sue Meath Co Co for rezoning the land and Meath should have to pay for all remedial work.

Graham · 22-11-2017 2:27pm

marieholmfan wrote: »

Water flows downhill

We agree on something

marieholmfan wrote: »

Kildare Co Co should sue Meath Co Co for rezoning the land and Meath should have to pay for all remedial work.

What remedial works? The sacrificial flood strip has flooded.

While it's far too early to say Millerstown should remain largely unaffected by any future flooding, so far it's looking pretty good.

highdef · 22-11-2017 2:42pm

Graham wrote: »

We agree on something

What remedial works? The sacrificial flood strip has flooded.

While it's far too early to say Millerstown should remain largely unaffected by any future flooding, so far it's looking pretty good.

Based on the amount of rain we just had, I would agree that the houses themselves should remain largely unaffected by any future flooding. It's early days yet and there is still a massive amount of concrete and tar to be laid in current and future developments so only time will tell.

fxotoole · 22-11-2017 2:43pm

megapixel wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/construction/planning-permission-granted-for-431-houses-in-kilcock-1.3299603

Anyone have any details of the plans etc?
The detail on Kildare county council website planning application doesn't have any maps etc.

Could be for the field beside Oughterany Village. There were plans to build there 1/2 years ago from what I remember

marieholmfan · 22-11-2017 2:47pm

fxotoole wrote: »

Could be for the field beside Oughterany Village. There were plans to build there 1/2 years ago from what I remember

It is the back of the GAA club. Go through the hedge beside the container at the back of the kids training pitch and that's where they are going.

ixus · 22-11-2017 3:07pm

Graham wrote: »

Looks like it's working as intended so far, too early to call it I guess.

It was worse than the pictures when i drove by. And the other side of the roundabout is worse again. Is the relief work doing its job to be in that condition after a 12 hour period of heavy rainfall? What would it be like after a week of excessive rain? Do we say, sure lets find out or address it?

Doubt anyone would get flood insurance there now.

I would also have a severe concern about the dangers of the water and how accessible it is. It would be dangerous enough for adults. Lethal for kids.

hijjins147 · 22-11-2017 3:18pm

ixus wrote: »

It was worse than the pictures when i drove by. And the other side of the roundabout is worse again. Is the relief work doing its job to be in that condition after a 12 hour period of heavy rainfall? What would it be like after a week of excessive rain? Do we say, sure lets find out or address it?

Doubt anyone would get flood insurance there now.

I would also have a severe concern about the dangers of the water and how accessible it is. It would be dangerous enough for adults. Lethal for kids.

How worse? What level was the water up to?

The field next to it is a floodplain created to divert waters, so it is meant to be worse off than where the houses are.

This was a status yellow rainfall ith 30-40mm of rain after falling.

The Motorway is now closed next to the maynooth ramp and a lot of the country is affected by this weather.

http://www.thejournal.ie/roads-closed-flooding-rain-warning-3709926-Nov2017/

Graham · 22-11-2017 3:20pm

ixus wrote: »

It was worse than the pictures when i drove by. And the other side of the roundabout is worse again. Is the relief work doing its job to be in that condition after a 12 hour period of heavy rainfall? What would it be like after a week of excessive rain? Do we say, sure lets find out or address it?

Doubt anyone would get flood insurance there now.

I would also have a severe concern about the dangers of the water and how accessible it is. It would be dangerous enough for adults. Lethal for kids.

Looking at the photos, the water levels would need to rise another 6 - 10ft before the house are effected. That's a reasonable indication the relief work is working.

If we're talking about guessing what might happen if this rain continued for a week, I don't know. Do we know if the current plans have already covered that type of weather?

ixus · 22-11-2017 3:27pm

It is visually worse to the naked eye than those pictures appear. That is from going and seeing it 2 hours after they were taken.

The issue is not "well it was a lot of rain in a short space of time so what do you expect?" The issue is, are the flood relief works fit for purpose? What happens if it was a status red? If it was yellow for 2/3 days or a week of standard rain follows todays rainfall? How far is it from capacity right now and at risk of over spilling? That's not being dramatic, it's a genuine question. For example, would another 20ml of rain in 24hrs cause an over spill?

Graham · 22-11-2017 3:41pm

ixus wrote: »

The issue is, are the flood relief works fit for purpose? What happens if it was a status red? If it was yellow for 2/3 days or a week of standard rain follows todays rainfall? How far is it from capacity right now and at risk of over spilling? That's not being dramatic, it's a genuine question. For example, would another 20ml of rain in 24hrs cause an over spill?

They certainly appear to be fit for purpose so far. Some of the worst localised flooding we've seen in a good while and the new development appears to be pretty much unaffected.

As to how far from capacity, I couldn't tell you. It will be interesting to see if anything changes over the next few weeks.

If you look at the flood strip as a large bath with sides 8 - 10ft high, so far the base of the bath is barely covered. Assuming nothing happens to block under the new bridge, I'd expect wider flooding to occur upstream/downstream if anywhere.

Bristolscale7 · 22-11-2017 5:08pm

http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/roundup/articles/2017/11/22/4148788-flooding-across-the-county/

Last night's torrential rain saw serious flooding across the county, including at least one house in Trim and at the new Millerstown Estate in Kilcock.
It also caused nightmares for commuters with massive delays on the M3 because of flooding near Blancharstown and Dunboyne, due to the Tolka River bursting its banks.

It is believed a house in Cedar Grove, Trim has been flooded and a stream has burst its banks in Butterstream Manor flooding gardens and roads around the estate and threatening houses. Meath County Council had the fire brigade on site trying to combat the floods.
Ronan Moore of the Socialist Party said there was also flooding in Avondale and Eldergrove.

Meanwhile, flood waters are believed to be threatening houses at Millerstown, Kilcock and there has been flooding on the Rooske Road in Dunboyne, sparking fears of flooding in local housing estates.
The Clonee to Kilbride Road is also flooded.

In Navan there is severe flooding a the junction of Academy Street and the Inner Relief Road.

highdef · 22-11-2017 5:25pm

Mid-morning, the floods were not threatening the houses themselves. Whether the flood waters have risen significantly since then, I don't know

hijjins147 · 22-11-2017 5:28pm

Picture As of Now

SQ2 · 22-11-2017 5:47pm

Posted in other thread, but relevant;

Videos of the floods here
https://www.facebook.com/kilcockcommunitynetwork/

Bristolscale7 · 22-11-2017 5:51pm

hijjins147 wrote: »

Picture As of Now

I am sure the waters will recede in time for the formal launch of the estate this weekend.

highdef · 22-11-2017 6:02pm

hijjins147 wrote: »

Picture As of Now

Don't suppose you have a wider shot (looks like that photo is cropped so guessing that you have a wider shot) so that I can compare with my photos from this morning?

Looks like heavy rain is hitting the area again (Dublin is about to get pretty torrential rain) but should clear in the next couple of hours

Graham · 22-11-2017 6:16pm

It really looks like the flood planning is going to be put to the test for the next few hours.

NedNew2 · 22-11-2017 6:29pm

Half a metre of flood water near that field now.

liam7831 · 22-11-2017 6:48pm

Wonder will it affect people's opinions on buying there ?

mirrorwall14 · 22-11-2017 6:50pm

As a parent it would certainly impact me, fine the houses might not flood but that’s a raging river not far from my house with zero barriers and when flooded it’s obviously gong to go beyond a fence even if they put one up

grind gremlin · 22-11-2017 8:35pm

This was this eve before 5

ixus · 22-11-2017 8:41pm

The drone footage on kilcock community network on fbk is worth a watch. If all the land is built on, around to Summerhill Rd, I think you will end up with a decent sized river from all the drainage.

sandra06 · 23-11-2017 3:58am

i was driving the rd from moyglare to kilcock about 4 pm today there was floods everywhere looking at the footage the rd ajoins the back of the new estate took a hour and half to drive about a mile ,,its crasy they got planning premisson to build on a flood plane ,,

hijjins147 · 23-11-2017 10:48am

Just to Give you all an update on where the Meath Planning Authority stands on this.

I rang them regarding Application number RA150205.

I said to them that planning permission was granted based on a flood risk assessment and flood mitigation works.

Then I told them that "a portion the site flooded yesterday. Why was this planning granted on a "known floodplain" etc etc. There are 152 houses to go up, fortunately none are occupied yet but it is very concerning early on. "

The reply was "It is entirely up to yourself if you buy a house in a place that is at risk of flooding" ... So they are not taking responsibility for the 152 unfortunate customers who will be buying houses based on the Meath Council granting permission to Build there.

Graham · 23-11-2017 10:50am

hijjins147 wrote: »

I said to them that planning permission was granted based on a flood risk assessment and flood mitigation works.

Didn't the flood mitigation works perform as expected?

i.e. the part that was mean to get flooded, got flooded. The parts that weren't meant to get flooded, didn't.

hijjins147 · 23-11-2017 10:53am

Graham wrote: »

Didn't the flood mitigation works perform as expected?

i.e. the part that was mean to get flooded, got flooded. The parts that weren't meant to get flooded, didn't.

We will wait and see if it floods. It held off last night. Weather Conditions are getting worse as time goes by.

Their attitude stinks. The whole thing does.

Bristolscale7 · 23-11-2017 10:53am

hijjins147 wrote: »

Just to Give you all an update on where the Meath Planning Authority stands on this.

I rang them regarding Application number RA150205.

I said to them that planning permission was granted based on a flood risk assessment and flood mitigation works.

Then I told them that "a portion the site flooded yesterday. Why was this planning granted on a "known floodplain" etc etc. There are 152 houses to go up, fortunately none are occupied yet but it is very concerning early on. "

The reply was "It is entirely up to yourself if you buy a house in a place that is at risk of flooding" ... So they are not taking responsibility for the 152 unfortunate customers who will be buying houses based on the Meath Council granting permission to Build there.

I hate to judge before all the facts are in, but it appears that the public officials who granted permission for this estate may not have had the interests of the population in mind when they made this decision.

Serious question, is it even possible to get insurance in this case? I suppose you can get house insurance that does not cover flooding? Will that satisfy a bank providing the loan?

Also, does anyone know how many yellow alerts Met Eireann issued in 2016 and 2017 for Kildare? I've had a quick look and annual numbers are hard to find. Can residents of this estate expect this to occur routinely?

Graham · 23-11-2017 11:13am

I genuinely don't see the issue.

A condition of the planning was flood mitigation.
The developer obviously implemented the flood mitigation measures.
The flood mitigation measures appear to have worked in fairly full-on real-life tests.

Bristolscale7 · 23-11-2017 11:26am

Graham wrote: »

I genuinely don't see the issue.

I'll try to explain.
1. Heavy rain yesterday brought water to within 100m of newly built houses.
2. You claim this is evidence that the flood mitigation worked.
3. However, it should be quite easy to establish (for example, if your full time job was working in a planning department) how much rainfall occurred over what duration yesterday and compare this to typical rainfall over the course of 12 months.
4. If the above data are known then we could determine if what occurred yesterday was an actual flood or merely heavy rain. Based on rainfall data from the past five years or so, we could also establish the extent to which the flood mitigation was tested.

highdef · 23-11-2017 11:28am

Ok, let's look at it this way - A large proportion of the houses in this estate are located on a flood plain and as a direct result, it will impact how they can insure their houses. I wonder if the developers/sellers of these houses will notify prospective purchasers of this fact before any contracts are signed?

I think that they MUST notify anyone of this if they are interested in buying a house. Personally, I would have researched it myself anyway and would have come to this conclusion but I have a habit of checking everything over. The majority of people do not.

Bristolscale7 · 23-11-2017 11:32am

Does anyone know if you can get a mortgage on a property for which flood insurance has been refused? Hypothetically.

2ndcoming · 23-11-2017 11:36am

Purely going by the fact that lots of areas I've seen flooded before were not flooded yesterday but this place was I would take that as a very bad sign.

When there actually is flooding this place will feel like Kevin Costner in Waterworld.

Maybe they could sponsor the Liffey Descent, could be a good target market?

REFLINE1 · 23-11-2017 11:39am

Graham wrote: »

I genuinely don't see the issue.

A condition of the planning was flood mitigation.
The developer obviously implemented the flood mitigation measures.
The flood mitigation measures appear to have worked in fairly full-on real-life tests.

The issue here is what event were the mitigation works designed to protect? It is difficult to establish what yesterdays rainfall event was in terms of AEP. I severely doubt it was a 1/100 yr event in terms of severity.

If a 1/100 yr event or even a 1/500 yr event occurs, where would the water levels reach then? Although these may sound relatively low probability events to happen there is a 1% chance of it happening every year if you live in a 1/100 yr flood plain. Even if it happened last year you have the exact same probability of it happening the following year. If you live in a 100yr flod zone for 50 years you have a 39% chance of the event happening.

Bristolscale7 · 23-11-2017 11:42am

REFLINE1 wrote: »

The issue here is what event were the mitigation works designed to protect? It is difficult to establish what yesterdays rainfall event was in terms of AEP. I severely doubt it was a 1/100 yr event in terms of severity.

If a 1/100 yr event or even a 1/500 yr event occurs, where would the water levels reach then? Although these may sound relatively low probability events to happen there is a 1% chance of it happening every year if you live in a 1/100 yr flood plain. Even if it happened last year you have the exact same probability of it happening the following year. If you live in a 100yr flod zone for 50 years you have a 39% chance of the event happening.

In the case of this estate, I think it people should know what happens in a 1/5 and 1/10 event.

Graham · 23-11-2017 11:43am

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

I'll try to explain.
1. Heavy rain yesterday brought water to within 100m of newly built houses.

Correct, on the sacrificial strip.

Wasn't that the plan?

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

In the case of this estate, I think it people should know what happens in a 1/5 and 1/10 event.

Last time we had flooding like yesterday was Aug 2008.

ixus · 23-11-2017 12:07pm

Graham, the river rose something like 10ft on a yellow rain warning of ~40ml rain in less than 12hrs. Not an orange or red, not a once in 100yr flooding event this is supposed to withstand.

It was a heavy deluge in a short period of time but by no means the worst we've had in the last 10yrs even. I recall not being able to get home from Dublin 4/5 years ago. I recall when they had to close schools and the University back in 2003 i think it was. You couldn't physically go anywhere in a car in Maynooth.

I get your logic, but your perspective or framing is wrong here I think.

Graham · 23-11-2017 12:20pm

ixus wrote: »

Graham, the river rose something like 10ft on a yellow rain warning of ~40ml rain in less than 12hrs. Not an orange or red, not a once in 100yr flooding event this is supposed to withstand.

It was a heavy deluge in a short period of time but by no means the worst we've had in the last 10yrs even. I recall not being able to get home from Dublin 4/5 years ago. I recall when they had to close schools and the University back in 2003 i think it was. You couldn't physically go anywhere in a car in Maynooth.

I get your logic, but your perspective or framing is wrong here I think.

I do remember that the flooding a few years ago quite vividly. We live in an area that's particularly effected every time it happens, it was touch and go whether we'd get home yesterday evening.

Aug 2008 was the last time I remember floods closing the M4 as they did yesterday.

None of that alters the fact the flood mitigation worked.

That's what I don't get. There's people calling out the council/developers for something that by all accounts appears to have gone to plan.

I'd absolutely understand the uproar if parts of Millerstown were discovered floating around the car park of NUIM this morning.

I'm not suggesting Millerstown is flood-proof, but by all accounts so far so good.

highdef · 23-11-2017 12:45pm

Whilst we had a lot of precipitation, it was not exceptional. Dunsany Met station is the closest official station (15km to the north) and it recorded 36.3mm yesterday. Already saturated ground exacerbated this rainfall however the ground is normally saturated at this time of year anyway.

Rainfall totals so far this month at Dunsany are running at 68.6mm. Average total for all of November is 84mm so given we are into late November, rainfall overall this month is running at about average. Looking at October, the total was 73.9mm. The average is 90.6 mm meaning October was a good bit drier than normal.

So in the grand scheme of things, apart from the spell of wet weather yesterday, it's not been drier than normal for almost 2 months.

highdef · 23-11-2017 12:51pm

Graham wrote: »

That's what I don't get. There's people calling out the council/developers for something that by all accounts appears to have gone to plan.

I'd absolutely understand the uproar if parts of Millerstown were discovered floating around the car park of NUIM this morning.

I'm not suggesting Millerstown is flood-proof, but by all accounts so far so good.

You have to remember than only a small fraction of the land that will be developed, has been developed. Most of the rain that fell in the development area fell onto soil and would percolate down naturally and eventually find it's way to the river, over a long period of time.

When the housing developments are complete, there will be massive amounts of run-off working it's way down hill to river at surface level, following heavy/torrential rain. I see in the planning permission that there is there be some sort of massive tank near the centre of the development that is for absorbing rain water but that can only do so much.

Think of the amount of water that will be flowing towards the Rye at surface level when all the roads and pathways and houses are in place, that does not do so now.

I do hope I am proven wrong on this.

Bristolscale7 · 23-11-2017 1:13pm

I just downloaded the weather data for the Dunsany station here:
http://www.met.ie/climate-request/

Since 2007 there have been five daily rainfall events greater than what occurred yesterday (36.3):

65, 56.4, 48.4, 41.2, and 37.8

The fact that there were two > 50 in the last 10 years would concern me given how the place looked with 36.3ml.

From a practical point of view, if the bank requires comprehensive home insurance for a mortgage, might this present a problem?

brillo pad · 23-11-2017 1:17pm

Information statement
23 November 2017
Millerstown Kilcock
McGarrell Reilly Homes

Millerstown Kilcock benefits from an extensive landscaped river park alongside the river Rye and
close to the Grand Canal on the Maynooth Road. The site has been designed and is being
constructed in compliance with the OPW Flood Guidelines. The works are being completed in
accordance with planning permissions from ABP for flood management works and Section 50
Applications with the OPW. The housing development is located outside the 1.0 % AEP Fluvial
Event flood zone as identified in the Kilcock FRAMS. The finished floor level (FFL) of houses
individually are 500mm higher than the predicted 0.1% AEP Fluvial Event flood level, regardless
of their location / proximity to the river.
The heavy rainfall event which occurred on Wednesday 22nd November was a significant event
as categorised and reported by Met Èireann and caused flooding in the Eastern Catchment
including Laois, Kildare, Meath, many parts of Dublin the M3 and the M4 etc. The flood event
resulted in river levels rising along the River Rye channel through Kilcock.
There was no flooding within the Millerstown development. All houses, estate roads and
entrance bridge are all designed and constructed above the predicted flood levels plus an
additional height to withstand extreme weather events. This morning water levels in the river
levels have abated and are returning to seasonal norms.
DBFL Consulting Engineers for McGarrell Reilly have confirmed that the flood protection
measures operated as anticipated and allowed flooding to occur in the designated flood
protection channel etc. All works on site have been implemented in advance of occupation of
the houses and the engineers are certifying the works as complete to the requirements to the
planning permissions received. The flood protection works have been validated by RPS group,
the authors of the Kilcock FRAMS signed off by OPW, Kildare County Council and Meath County
Council, as being consistent with their flood modelling
Yesterdays extreme weather event has occurred as anticipated and demonstrates that the flood
measures are in place and operating as expected.

END

highdef · 23-11-2017 1:30pm

A fairly accurate statement except for "There was no flooding within the Millerstown development." - So the parkland is not part of the Millerstown development???

Graham · 23-11-2017 1:33pm

highdef wrote: »

"There was no flooding within the Millerstown development." - So the parkland is not part of the Millerstown development???

What's confusing?

"allowed flooding to occur in the designated flood protection channel"

highdef · 23-11-2017 1:37pm

They contradict themselves in the statement. They first say that there was no flooding within the Millerstown development and then proceed to say that flooding occurred where expected within the development.

I don't know about you but I find that highly contradictory.

Graham · 23-11-2017 1:41pm

highdef wrote: »

They contradict themselves in the statement. They first say that there was no flooding within the Millerstown development and then proceed to say that flooding occurred where expected within the development.

I don't know about you but I find that highly contradictory.

Seriously you're nit-picking now. Flooding happened where it was meant to happen.

Not in the development, in the flood-protection channel.

highdef · 23-11-2017 1:46pm

It's not really nit-picking though. They highlight the fact that there is an extensive landscaped river park alongside the river Rye as part of the development. It was this very park that flooded, not just a bit of it but the vast majority. To say that it is not part of the development when it was McGarrell Reilly Homes who built it is completely inaccurate.

Graham · 23-11-2017 1:54pm

Obviously considered to be 2 separate entities.

1) The development
2) The flood-protection channel

I'll bow out of this particular line of debate now because it's pointless. However you want to interpret the naming of the entities the outcome remains the same.

New Houses Kilcock

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