Irish Concepts of Urban Living Must Change

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 2:02pm #1

So many of the people who complain about living in Dublin do not actually live a city life. Nearly all exist in far flung suburbs. So many of the problems of estate life stem from this kind of bland dull environment.

This is because we have adopted an American style suburban car-based model for Irish urban development. The public transport is a disaster because the 'buses are enough' mantra has created nothing but congestion on roads filled with three hour single occupant car commuters.

It is time to end all this and go high rise in our urban centers. We need dozens - maybe hundreds of 20 storey+ apartment buildings between the canals in Dublin alone. We need the Metro and DARTunderground yesterday.

Suburbs don't work unless they have fast rail access to the urban core. They become prisons of mediocrity and boredom. This often manifests into pathological social behavior as 'estate problems'.

If this new government in Ireland is to mean anything, it must move us away from the 'three bedroom and three hour car commute' failed policies, and instead build up high rise urban cores and put trains underground.

dd973 · 10-02-2020 2:13pm

Or gentrify Sherriff Street and the North and South inner cities and move all the crims, junkies and riff raff out to Saggart and Laytown, decent folk can be allowed to stay.

Meant half in ironic jest.

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 2:20pm

Rightly or wrongly, high rise living is associated with junkies, drugs, unemployment and deprivation. There is no appetite for it in dublin.

Where is everyone supposed to park their car in high rises? It makes no sense.

And as for underground trains - lol. Come back to me in 50 years. CIE will never allow it anyway, they will block it.

Ubbquittious · 10-02-2020 2:28pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

So many of the people who complain about living in Dublin do not actually live a city life. Nearly all exist in far flung suburbs. So many of the problems of estate life stem from this kind of bland dull environment.

This is because we have adopted an American style suburban car-based model for Irish urban development. The public transport is a disaster because the 'buses are enough' mantra has created nothing but congestion on roads filled with three hour single occupant car commuters.

It is time to end all this and go high rise in our urban centers. We need dozens - maybe hundreds of 20 storey+ apartment buildings between the canals in Dublin alone. We need the Metro and DARTunderground yesterday.

Suburbs don't work unless they have fast rail access to the urban core. They become prisons of mediocrity and boredom. This often manifests into pathological social behavior as 'estate problems'.

If this new government in Ireland is to mean anything, it must move us away from the 'three bedroom and three hour car commute' failed policies, and instead build up high rise urban cores and put trains underground.

Lived in Dublin and it was pure sh1te. I dont believe that so many people should be clustered together in such a small place. Living in the shticks now and much happier

KiKi III · 10-02-2020 2:33pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, high rise living is associated with junkies, drugs, unemployment and deprivation. There is no appetite for it in dublin.

Where is everyone supposed to park their car in high rises? It makes no sense.

And as for underground trains - lol. Come back to me in 50 years. CIE will never allow it anyway, they will block it.

This is a silly complaint easily planned for. Three floors of underground parking for 10 floors of apartments. Simple.

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 2:35pm

Sure everyone within an asses roar of it any beyond would only object anyway.

KiKi III · 10-02-2020 2:39pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Sure everyone within an asses roar of it any beyond would only object anyway.

Their objections can and should be overruled unless they’re very well founded for the greater good of society.

dotsman · 10-02-2020 3:00pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, high rise living is associated with junkies, drugs, unemployment and deprivation. There is no appetite for it in dublin.

Not in any other country (except maybe UK). Junkies and scumbags are junkies/scumbags anyway. We should be dealing with that problem, as a society, regardless of where they live. We need to move away from this idea of "social" housing. Apartment complexes can be lovely when everyone living there is paying with their own money.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Where is everyone supposed to park their car in high rises? It makes no sense

The idea is that you have far fewer cars, as there is little need for them.

I have happily lived in the city centre for over 10 years without a car. Commutes have always been either a short walk, or a short dart/luas. I use the GoCar for the few times a year I need a car to go out to industrial/retail estates etc. And rent a car the odd time I need to go to the countryside (weddings/weekend away etc).

In all, it is far, far cheaper than owning and running a car (I reckon I save 4-5K a year by not having a car). And far, far more enjoyable living than being stuck in a car commuting on gridlocked roads.

careless sherpa · 10-02-2020 3:04pm

KiKi III wrote: »

This is a silly complaint easily planned for. Three floors of underground parking for 10 floors of apartments. Simple.

Digging too far underground in Dublin is pretty expensive. Ground is soft ... too soft and very wet.

dotsman · 10-02-2020 3:04pm

dd973 wrote: »

Or gentrify Sherriff Street and the North and South inner cities and move all the crims, junkies and riff raff out to Saggart and Laytown, decent folk can be allowed to stay.

Meant half in ironic jest.

I'm with you on that. That is why I'm in 2 minds about the new "Connolly Quarter" development

On the one hand, it is the high -rise we need (and a lot more of them).

On the other hand, the public transport in the area is already over-capacity, but worse than that, with a significant number of apartments being used for "social" and given the neighbourhood, there is a 50-50 chance this could turn in to a dump very quickly.

KiKi III · 10-02-2020 3:05pm

careless sherpa wrote: »

Digging too far underground in Dublin is pretty expensive. Ground is soft ... too soft and very wet.

The problem with Ireland is that people are quick to point out problems and slow to seek solutions.

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 3:06pm

careless sherpa wrote: »

Digging too far underground in Dublin is pretty expensive. Ground is soft ... too soft and very wet.

so the Dublin Port Tunnel doesn't exist then?

lawred2 · 10-02-2020 3:07pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, high rise living is associated with junkies, drugs, unemployment and deprivation. There is no appetite for it in dublin.

Where is everyone supposed to park their car in high rises? It makes no sense.

And as for underground trains - lol. Come back to me in 50 years. CIE will never allow it anyway, they will block it.

Wrongly

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 3:07pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Lived in Dublin and it was pure sh1te. I dont believe that so many people should be clustered together in such a small place. Living in the shticks now and much happier

Good for you. Just don't be expecting people in Dublin to be paying for city-level amenities and utilities right to your one-off house.

Isolation is a personal choice you made so you can live with the downsides of this.

lawred2 · 10-02-2020 3:09pm

KiKi III wrote: »

This is a silly complaint easily planned for. Three floors of underground parking for 10 floors of apartments. Simple.

There should be hardly any underground spaces. Cars and cities don't mix. Planning for future city centre buildings should not include much more than 10% parking spaces for residents

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 3:12pm

Good luck with that planning application. There will be objectors left right and center. But then there will be objectors regarless nomatter what you do.

lawred2 · 10-02-2020 3:16pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Good luck with that planning application. There will be objectors left right and center. But then there will be objectors regarless nomatter what you do.

times are changing - private motor cars will soon not be a factor at any level in city center developments

Mrs OBumble · 10-02-2020 3:22pm

dotsman wrote: »

I have happily lived in the city centre for over 10 years without a car. Commutes have always been either a short walk, or a short dart/luas. I use the GoCar for the few times a year I need a car to go out to industrial/retail estates etc. And rent a car the odd time I need to go to the countryside (weddings/weekend away etc).

In all, it is far, far cheaper than owning and running a car (I reckon I save 4-5K a year by not having a car). And far, far more enjoyable living than being stuck in a car commuting on gridlocked roads.

#MeToo

caff · 10-02-2020 3:24pm

Don't even need to go that high. 6 floors is optimum for dublin. Going higher results in higher costs of maintenance and because of the requirements for elevators and fire escapes you don't get any more space.

High density is the key, you don't have to go high to achieve that.

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 3:25pm

That is all grand saying that but wait till all the complicating factors come into play:
- the disabled who will, along with their families, be demanding that access for disabled peoples vehicles be maintained. And blue badge holders.
- business associations will go mad as they will say businesses will close as the lack of cars will impact on footfall and business will be diverted to the out of town places.
- the elderly and those with children will also be up in arms saying that they are being inconveniences and need it for their own safety, etc,etc.
- and all these groups will have their campaigners and councillors and TDs under starters orders to campaign to have their requests satisfied.

What are you going to do then?

KiKi III · 10-02-2020 3:29pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That is all grand saying that but wait till all the complicating factors come into play:
- the disabled who will, along with their families, be demanding that access for disabled peoples vehicles be maintained. And blue badge holders.
- business associations will go mad as they will say businesses will close as the lack of cars will impact on footfall and business will be diverted to the out of town places.
- the elderly and those with children will also be up in arms saying that they are being inconveniences and need it for their own safety, etc,etc.
- and all these groups will have their campaigners and councillors and TDs under starters orders to campaign to have their requests satisfied.

What are you going to do then?

What are *you* going to go? Apart from pick decent ideas apart? What are your solutions?

careless sherpa · 10-02-2020 3:32pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

so the Dublin Port Tunnel doesn't exist then?

It exists alright but wouldn't say it was a cheap tunnel. Digging is not the problem with the drills available. It is keeping the water out is the expensive part

Ipso · 10-02-2020 3:33pm

KiKi III wrote: »

What are *you* going to go? Apart from pick decent ideas apart? What are your solutions?

God forbid that someone pick an idea apart in anticipation of future problems.

wakka12 · 10-02-2020 3:38pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly, high rise living is associated with junkies, drugs, unemployment and deprivation. There is no appetite for it in dublin.

Where is everyone supposed to park their car in high rises? It makes no sense.

And as for underground trains - lol. Come back to me in 50 years. CIE will never allow it anyway, they will block it.

There is an appetite. There are dozens of high rises that have very recently gotten planning permission or are going into planning
Most wont have parking because people living in the city centre do not need to drive

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 3:44pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

That is all grand saying that but wait till all the complicating factors come into play:
- the disabled who will, along with their families, be demanding that access for disabled peoples vehicles be maintained. And blue badge holders.

they don't have to live in these places, young professionals should be the market they're built for

TheBoyConor wrote: »

- business associations will go mad as they will say businesses will close as the lack of cars will impact on footfall and business will be diverted to the out of town places.

F*ck them. Wreck the city with cars because of a few business men, no siree. Also it's proven that banning cars from streets increases business in shops etc.

TheBoyConor wrote: »

- the elderly and those with children will also be up in arms saying that they are being inconveniences and need it for their own safety, etc,etc.
- and all these groups will have their campaigners and councillors and TDs under starters orders to campaign to have their requests satisfied.

What are you going to do then?

The elderly and people with children live in high rise all over the world, so this is a moot point.
TDs and councillors will of course try to stop any kind of development but that's what the problem is with getting stuff done in Ireland.

completedit · 10-02-2020 3:49pm

True Dublin would be so much better. Living in suburbs was fine up until about 21. It was alright after that for a few years but now at this age, it's just so dull. I live in a great part of the world overall, love the nature, the sea but this isn't the life for someone my age. Dublin would be great if it was a truly bustling centre. It's so depressing on Grafton Street at 8pm of a random Tuesday in March.
I'll never get to experience Dublin like it could and should be. By time anything does come about, Ill have past that point of needing that lifestyle.
I feel just off the top of my head, that suburban life is good during summer months but during winter it's so gloomy. Especially if you're in the outer suburbs. Areas like Donnybrook, Marino, Clontarf, Ranelagh are perfect

IAMAMORON · 10-02-2020 3:50pm

careless sherpa wrote: »

Digging too far underground in Dublin is pretty expensive. Ground is soft ... too soft and very wet.

This is not the reason.

The actual reason is that the sewage system in Dublin City Centre is Victorian and is built quite deep, about 150 feet deeper than European sewage systems. You will notice the rancid bang of crap you get when visiting southern European cities in the summer, this is because their sewage is only 50 feet underground, when the rain stops their waste bangs its' way up to street level, not nice.

The deep system in Dublin means that any underground would need to either go deeper, or they would need to move the sewer closer to the ground..... which would you prefer?

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 3:52pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

So many of the people who complain about living in Dublin do not actually live a city life. Nearly all exist in far flung suburbs. So many of the problems of estate life stem from this kind of bland dull environment.

This is because we have adopted an American style suburban car-based model for Irish urban development. The public transport is a disaster because the 'buses are enough' mantra has created nothing but congestion on roads filled with three hour single occupant car commuters.

It is time to end all this and go high rise in our urban centers. We need dozens - maybe hundreds of 20 storey+ apartment buildings between the canals in Dublin alone. We need the Metro and DARTunderground yesterday.

Suburbs don't work unless they have fast rail access to the urban core. They become prisons of mediocrity and boredom. This often manifests into pathological social behavior as 'estate problems'.

If this new government in Ireland is to mean anything, it must move us away from the 'three bedroom and three hour car commute' failed policies, and instead build up high rise urban cores and put trains underground.

You go live in your precious high rise, I for one never will.

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 3:53pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

they don't have to live in these places, young professionals should be the market they're built for

F*ck them. Wreck the city with cars because of a few business men, no siree. Also it's proven that banning cars from streets increases business in shops etc.

The elderly and people with children live in high rise all over the world, so this is a moot point.
TDs and councillors will of course try to stop any kind of development but that's what the problem is with getting stuff done in Ireland.

Are you saying that people with disabilities cannot be young, professionals, or both? That is what you are suggesting. Developments should be accessible and suitable for all people.

You forget that business people hold serious clout when it comes to things like this and they are a very strong lobby group.

Likewise the elderly are a very strong group and they are particularly adept at getting on to councillors and TDs and anyone who might have a bit of influence and will listen to them.

A lot of naivety on this thread.

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 3:53pm

careless sherpa wrote: »

It exists alright but wouldn't say it was a cheap tunnel. Digging is not the problem with the drills available. It is keeping the water out is the expensive part

so all the underground lines in high water areas like Amsterdam, Copenhagen Manhattan and London don't also exist?

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 3:53pm

There are people on these boards who seem to think the country would be a cleaner better place if we all lived in one offs ffs. This is what you're up against.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 3:56pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Are you saying that people with disabilities cannot be young, professionals, or both? That is what you are suggesting. Developments should be accessible and suitable for all people.

You forget that business people hold serious clout when it comes to things like this and they are a very strong lobby group.

Likewise the elderly are a very strong group and they are particularly adept at getting on to councillors and TDs and anyone who might have a bit of influence and will listen to them.

A lot of naivety on this thread.

So what, we should just not try to change anything? I'm not sure what your point is. Do you think higher density car free living in Dublin is a good or bad thing? It is a far more sustainable way of living than the current models we adopt here.

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 3:58pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

so all the underground lines in high water areas like Amsterdam, Copenhagen Manhattan and London don't also exist?

You forget that these are areas that are very, very densely populated and therefore the extravagant construction costs of such projects can be justified. We will never have that level of population density in ireland.

You also forget that these projects were substantially built 30-40-50 years ago. Back then, there would have been nowhere near the the same level of H&S and environmental regulation. If the same projects were built nowadays, the costs would be profoundly greater. And the environmental and planning processes these days mean that the timescale for such projects are vastly more protracted and are frought with delays, objections, appeals, Judaical reviews, and then more appeals before anything happens.

Tis actually a wonder anything happens in ireland anymore.

Church on Tuesday · 10-02-2020 4:00pm

cnocbui wrote: »

You go live in your precious high rise, I for one never will.

It needs to happen though, eventually we will have to start building upwards.

elefant · 10-02-2020 4:04pm

The percentage of Irish people living in flats/apartments is, by a fair distance, the lowest in Europe.

I think it will take a big shift in public perception, and improvement of quality of housing stock in this area, to change this graph. I believe it would be a really progressive move, but not sure I can envision it happening.

Large swathes of the population seem to completely scoff at the idea of living and raising a family in an apartment building. It's just not the Irish way. We'd rather trade off location to live in the suburbs in a detached house with a garden, and poor public services.

completedit · 10-02-2020 4:07pm

elefant wrote: »

The percentage of Irish people living in flats/apartments is, by a fair distance, the lowest in Europe.

I think it will take a big shift in public perception, and improvement of quality of housing stock in this area, to change this graph. I think it would be a really progressive move, but not sure I can envision it happening.

Large swathes of the population seem to completely scoff at the idea of living and raising a family in an apartment building. It's just not the Irish way. We'd rather trade off location to live in the suburbs in a detached house with a garden, and poor public services.

In fairness it’s one of those things that in theory sounds good but having a garden that is nice to chill out in and that living space is unreal. I actually need it for the soul. Done student apartment living and you just feel far more couped up once you’re inside. Don’t like the feeling.

*Accomodation was poor to decent at best, maybe apartments built for long term family stays are better I don’t know...frankly I don’t want to know, it’s a living arrangement I could do without

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 4:07pm

elefant wrote: »

The percentage of Irish people living in flats/apartments is, by a fair distance, the lowest in Europe.

and that's why they spend the most time stuck in traffic.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:08pm

completedit wrote: »

In fairness it’s one of those things that in theory sounds good but having a garden that is nice to chill out in and that living space is unreal. I actually need it for the soul. Done student apartment living and you just feel far more couped up once you’re inside. Don’t like the feeling.

Right, but it is simply unsustainable for everyone to live that way. Lots of people would like to be in a centrally located flat with access to everything on their doorstep.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 4:13pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

It needs to happen though, eventually we will have to start building upwards.

No we won't, no more than any other place that isn't geographically constricted. Up is very expensive, sideways isn't. If you believe some of those nonsense predictions about Ireland's population imminently increasing substantially, I have a couple bridges you might be interested in.

elefant · 10-02-2020 4:14pm

completedit wrote: »

In fairness it’s one of those things that in theory sounds good but having a garden that is nice to chill out in and that living space is unreal. I actually need it for the soul. Done student apartment living and you just feel far more couped up once you’re inside. Don’t like the feeling.

Yes, it absolutely needs to be developed correctly. Apartment complexes shouldn't just be concrete boxes to go to and from work.

Not everybody needs a private garden, but public amenities are vital. Otherwise you quickly end up with social disasters like the Ballymun flats, the Parisian suburbs and the old Bijlmer district in Amsterdam.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 4:14pm

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

There are people on these boards who seem to think the country would be a cleaner better place if we all lived in one offs ffs. This is what you're up against.

Ever been to Australia? If not, don't go, absolutely dire place, nothing but one-offs everywhere.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:15pm

cnocbui wrote: »

No we won't, no more than any other place that isn't geographically constricted. Up is very expensive, sideways isn't. If you believe some of those nonsense predictions about Ireland's population imminently increasing substantially, I have a couple bridges you might be interested in.

So you think we should just keep going with the urban sprawl and one off housing that Ireland has favoured until now? How long do you think we should carry on like this until things need to change? You do know land isn't finite, right?

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:15pm

cnocbui wrote: »

Ever been to Australia? If not, don't go, absolutely dire place, nothing but one-offs everywhere.

Lived there for 2 years, love the place, didn't really notice the one offs like we have here tbh, but it was over 10 years ago

Church on Tuesday · 10-02-2020 4:17pm

cnocbui wrote: »

No we won't, no more than any other place that isn't geographically constricted. Up is very expensive, sideways isn't. If you believe some of those nonsense predictions about Ireland's population imminently increasing substantially, I have a couple bridges you might be interested in.

Come again?

Graces7 · 10-02-2020 4:27pm

MrAbyss wrote: »

Good for you. Just don't be expecting people in Dublin to be paying for city-level amenities and utilities right to your one-off house.

Isolation is a personal choice you made so you can live with the downsides of this.

What downsides?

TheBoyConor · 10-02-2020 4:33pm

Getting home from the pub is the only downside.

More than made up for by the absence of chuggers and door to door sales constantly banging and putting litter through your door.

jimgoose · 10-02-2020 4:36pm

I live in/on my own little square of ground in a comfortable, safe suburb of Cork with plenty amenities immediately available, excellent bus links to the city centre and railway station, the mighty South Ring motorway practically coming into the yard and no gowlbags or toolbars around the place. Fcuk yiz all!

mariaalice · 10-02-2020 4:42pm

I am intrigued by how the poster believes that urban living is a cure for boredom and that the suburbs are the cause of all social ills.

All the cool authentic people live in the city and all the unhappy banal people live in the suburbs, urban life is a paradise with no downsides?

MrAbyss · 10-02-2020 4:43pm

Graces7 wrote: »

What downsides?

Tiresome ****ers scattered in O'Southforks all over Donegal saying 'Where is our train line?" constantly.

Thelonious Monk · 10-02-2020 4:45pm

mariaalice wrote: »

I am intrigued by how the poster believes that urban living is a cure for boredom and that the suburbs are the cause of all social ills.

All the cool authentic people live in the city and all the unhappy banal people live in the suburbs, urban life is a paradise with no downsides?

I don't think anyone is saying that. Higher density living is a must if we want better functioning cities that are not reliant on private cars and fossil fuels however.

cnocbui · 10-02-2020 4:47pm

Church on Tuesday wrote: »

Come again?

You have never heard about people selling bridges they don't own, to the unsuspecting?

Irish Concepts of Urban Living Must Change

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