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Married 25 years and gay
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07-02-2020 11:59pm#1I have been a member of boards for a decade and this is my first time posting unregistered.
I was born in the early seventies and always knew I liked other guys. When I was studying in the UK, I met my wife at age 22. 2 years later she asked when was I going to propose, so I did it and we were married later in the year. We returned to Ireland the following year.
You will no doubt judge me very harshly but I had several affairs over the years and still do. At 3 separate occasions since we were married 25 years ago, the subject of my being gay has come up and each time she blocks any discussion about it. We now have a few children who are grown up (15 to 22).
Unless you have been in my position you could never understand the pressures in the late 80s to conform. That and a burning desire to have children made me choose the life I have. There was never any doubt that I am gay, I did what was asked of me throughout my marriage.
Even if I had a public coming out, I would never leave my wife. We have quite a good life. We do lots together and lots separately. We do the best we can for our children.
One day, one of my kids will find out I am gay. It's fairly inevitable. I would love to have an open discussion with my wife about it so that if it ever happened we would have a plan for it or perhaps we should tell them before they find out. All of my siblings know that I am gay as I made a point of coming out to them 10 years ago.
I have bipolar disorder and this chaos in my head contributes to depressive episodes. I just want it out in the open. I have one really good friend and he says I shouldnt rock the boat until it is necessary (I.e. someone in my wife's family or one of my kids finds out).
I've no doubt there will be very negative replies to my story but it is what it is and there are many men in the same position.4
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Hetero married wrote: »I have been a member of boards for a decade and this is my first time posting unregistered.
I was born in the early seventies and always knew I liked other guys. When I was studying in the UK, I met my wife at age 22. 2 years later she asked when was I going to propose, so I did it and we were married later in the year. We returned to Ireland the following year.
You will no doubt judge me very harshly but I had several affairs over the years and still do. At 3 separate occasions since we were married 25 years ago, the subject of my being gay has come up and each time she blocks any discussion about it. We now have a few children who are grown up (15 to 22).
Unless you have been in my position you could never understand the pressures in the late 80s to conform. That and a burning desire to have children made me choose the life I have. There was never any doubt that I am gay, I did what was asked of me throughout my marriage.
Even if I had a public coming out, I would never leave my wife. We have quite a good life. We do lots together and lots separately. We do the best we can for our children.
One day, one of my kids will find out I am gay. It's fairly inevitable. I would love to have an open discussion with my wife about it so that if it ever happened we would have a plan for it or perhaps we should tell them before they find out. All of my siblings know that I am gay as I made a point of coming out to them 10 years ago.
I have bipolar disorder and this chaos in my head contributes to depressive episodes. I just want it out in the open. I have one really good friend and he says I shouldnt rock the boat until it is necessary (I.e. someone in my wife's family or one of my kids finds out).
I've no doubt there will be very negative replies to my story but it is what it is and there are many men in the same position.
Heart goes out to you, that's awful pressure to be under mind yourself.0 -
Is your wife aware of your affairs?
Is she happy enough with the way you live together?
Do you have a sex life with your wife?0 -
Hetero married wrote: »I have been a member of boards for a decade and this is my first time posting unregistered.
I was born in the early seventies and always knew I liked other guys. When I was studying in the UK, I met my wife at age 22. 2 years later she asked when was I going to propose, so I did it and we were married later in the year. We returned to Ireland the following year.
You will no doubt judge me very harshly but I had several affairs over the years and still do. At 3 separate occasions since we were married 25 years ago, the subject of my being gay has come up and each time she blocks any discussion about it. We now have a few children who are grown up (15 to 22).
Unless you have been in my position you could never understand the pressures in the late 80s to conform. That and a burning desire to have children made me choose the life I have. There was never any doubt that I am gay, I did what was asked of me throughout my marriage.
Even if I had a public coming out, I would never leave my wife. We have quite a good life. We do lots together and lots separately. We do the best we can for our children.
One day, one of my kids will find out I am gay. It's fairly inevitable. I would love to have an open discussion with my wife about it so that if it ever happened we would have a plan for it or perhaps we should tell them before they find out. All of my siblings know that I am gay as I made a point of coming out to them 10 years ago.
I have bipolar disorder and this chaos in my head contributes to depressive episodes. I just want it out in the open. I have one really good friend and he says I shouldnt rock the boat until it is necessary (I.e. someone in my wife's family or one of my kids finds out).
I've no doubt there will be very negative replies to my story but it is what it is and there are many men in the same position.
I hope that people won't be too hasty to criticise you.
I'm straight, married and happy with my life and my relationship. But I lived through the 70s and the 80s and I know exactly what you mean about the pressure to conform of the era. It was a grey, dark, depressing and painful time to be gay in Ireland, and your choices were either to escape the place or else to live a life of quiet hurt and misery.
I don't think I have any advice to offer about your relationship with your wife and your children that you'd find useful. But I want to add to what maniac2003 said and ask you to take care and be kind to yourself.0 -
It seems as if you want to make the last push and come out to children and the in laws, but continue living alongside your wife in the family home? Correct me If I'm wrong, but that's what I'm getting from it.
I have a great respect for you for trying to set the record straight and making sure your children know, but do not forget that this is not just your story. It also affects your children, and your wife. It would be entirely unfair to continue with coming out to everyone (ie, shatter the public illusion of your marriage) and expecting to stay with your wife while continuing to have your bit on the side. Don't hold her back from finding someone else.
If you're doing this, you have to do it right on all accounts.0 -
I guess it all depends on wether your wife knew you were gay before she married you. If she did well fair enough. But if she didn't then I'm sorry I have no sympathy for you. You have deprived her of the opportunity to have a full and complete relationship with someone who would love her as she deserves.0
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I understand there was a pressure to conform in the 80's and early 90's, but, I don't ever remember a pressure for anyone to get married - perhaps some people had an internal pressure to hide they were/are gay - why not just stay single rather than getting married knowing you were gay and involving other people into your lie - very selfish behaviour, you sacrificed her future happiness so that she could be your cover. Your wife has my sympathy.
plenty of people didn't get married at that time - not all of them were gay. At that time single people weren't automatically assumed to be gay as people weren't as aware of gay sexuality as we are today. Single people today are probably more likely to be assumed as gay than at anytime in the past.0 -
I was under serious pressure to get married in the 2000s, never mind the 80s!
It’s remarkable how people pile it on - friends who want to be bridesmaids, would be in laws, people endlessly asking you about future wedding plans, people asking when you’re going to have kids, being given lectures by random people about getting on the housing ladder. There’s an endless list of people who’ll happily queue up to match make and manipulate people into doing what they think is best.
It was probably a million times worse in the 70s, 80s and earlier but there can be HUGE pressures put on to get married.
I’m a bi guy and have always been very open about that so any female or male partners knew, but you’d still be amazed at the snide comments and the remarks I’ve had when I broke up with someone and moved on and displayed any interest in guys.
We’re a lot more open minded than we were but never underestimate the social pressures around some of these things. They can be absolutely enormous.
It’s also one reason I would absolutely never push people together - happens way more than you’d think. Friends thinking they’re being helpful..0 -
Are you philp scholfeild ?0
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Just wondering did you (Xertz) give into this pressure to get married knowing that it wasn't right?
I understand that there is a pressure to conform to the norm in all aspects of life, but, I still cannot understand why people would go through with getting married, (straight or gay)knowing that it will not work out.
Lots of marriages end where both parties went in with the best intentions, but didn't work out for various reasons, but, they got married because it was right at the time and thought that it would last forever.
It seems that the OP only got married to cover the fact that he is gay, which I think is very selfish and unfair to his wife.0 -
No, but all things considered, it was quite a possibility and since I'm actually bi, it's not quite as complicated.
However, the pressure was immense. All I'm saying is that the social pressures in Ireland around marriage are perhaps lessening but they're still there. If you're living with someone the number of people who will start dropping hints then you've got the whole wedding industry that tends to sell the dream of a magical day rather than the prospect of a long life together and before you know it you're hurtling towards a date and can't get out of it.
I also know a straight guy who decided to call off a wedding a couple of months beforehand and he faced absolute hell from his in-laws and various other people as a result. He'd people going on and on about 'that poor girl' and 'he stood her up at the altar' (about 2+ months beforehand) endless snide comments etc etc. nasty remarks about "the run away groom" etc etc. It was really bad. He actually emigrated due to it!
Seems rural Ireland would have far preferred he just shut his mouth and went ahead with a marriage he had doubts about, just so they could all have a lovely day out.
I guess my point is that it would be helpful in many ways if people just butted out of other people's relationships. I've just seen too many scenarios (gay and straight [mostly straight]) where people have ended up with the wrong person because of external pressure.
My view of it is people need to spend a few years together before making that decision. I know that might fly in the face of the religious conservatives and the love-at-first-sight romantics, but it's the only way you'll practically know if you're really going to make a go of it and I think that applies to any couple, of any gender combination.
I know we love to think we're not in the 1950s anymore, but when it comes to some of these things we seem to snap to some kind of Disney fantasy and that's not the reality of relationships at all. Nor should a wedding day be the main focus of life, and I suspect despite everything, for some it still is one of those 'life goals'.
We're also a country that only introduced divorce in 1995 (and only by a hair's breadth in a referendum that carried by just 50.28% in favour) so to assume we've a few culturally conservative view of marriage embedded in society isn't really a big leap of logic. Go back to the 1990s (an era when Friends was on TV and the internet existed and boards was launched) and you'd find extremely conservative views of marriage and huge taboos about divorce while LGBT+ issues were only barely discussed.
I have Irish relatives who basically lived their lives in exile because of lack of divorce here and that was only in the 1970s and 80s and they're straight.
Times have changed enormously and I just wouldn't rush to be judgemental about someone who married for any number of reasons.
But, I can easily see how someone would end up walking up the aisle with huge doubts be they male or female gay or straight. There's a whole array of people and a full industry to make walking away before hand VERY difficult. In many respects, we weren't THAT far away from arranged marriages in some cases and we were an extremely conformist society until very recently.
It's all very easy to look at scenarios in other people's lives through our own 2020 lens.0 -
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Hi Xertz,No, but all things considered, it was quite a possibility and since I'm actually bi, it's not quite as complicated.
However, the pressure was immense. All I'm saying is that the social pressures in Ireland around marriage are perhaps lessening but they're still there. If you're living with someone the number of people who will start dropping hints then you've got the whole wedding industry that tends to sell the dream of a magical day rather than the prospect of a long life together and before you know it you're hurtling towards a date and can't get out of it.
I also know a straight guy who decided to call off a wedding a couple of months beforehand and he faced absolute hell from his in-laws and various other people as a result. He'd people going on and on about 'that poor girl' and 'he stood her up at the altar' (about 2+ months beforehand) endless snide comments etc etc. nasty remarks about "the run away groom" etc etc. It was really bad. He actually emigrated due to it!
Seems rural Ireland would have far preferred he just shut his mouth and went ahead with a marriage he had doubts about, just so they could all have a lovely day out.
I guess my point is that it would be helpful in many ways if people just butted out of other people's relationships. I've just seen too many scenarios (gay and straight [mostly straight]) where people have ended up with the wrong person because of external pressure.
My view of it is people need to spend a few years together before making that decision. I know that might fly in the face of the religious conservatives and the love-at-first-sight romantics, but it's the only way you'll practically know if you're really going to make a go of it and I think that applies to any couple, of any gender combination.
I know we love to think we're not in the 1950s anymore, but when it comes to some of these things we seem to snap to some kind of Disney fantasy and that's not the reality of relationships at all. Nor should a wedding day be the main focus of life, and I suspect despite everything, for some it still is one of those 'life goals'.
We're also a country that only introduced divorce in 1995 (and only by a hair's breadth in a referendum that carried by just 50.28% in favour) so to assume we've a few culturally conservative view of marriage embedded in society isn't really a big leap of logic. Go back to the 1990s (an era when Friends was on TV and the internet existed and boards was launched) and you'd find extremely conservative views of marriage and huge taboos about divorce while LGBT+ issues were only barely discussed.
I have Irish relatives who basically lived their lives in exile because of lack of divorce here and that was only in the 1970s and 80s and they're straight.
Times have changed enormously and I just wouldn't rush to be judgemental about someone who married for any number of reasons.
But, I can easily see how someone would end up walking up the aisle with huge doubts be they male or female gay or straight. There's a whole array of people and a full industry to make walking away before hand VERY difficult. In many respects, we weren't THAT far away from arranged marriages in some cases and we were an extremely conformist society until very recently.
It's all very easy to look at scenarios in other people's lives through our own 2020 lens.
I agree with alot of what you said, some people do/did feel pressured into getting married (straight or gay) knowing that it's the wrong thing to do, what I don't understand is how people allowed things to get this far in the first place- with the exception of kids being involved.
It's also a very selfish thing to do as it involves another person who is probably intending to get married for life.
Arranged marriages were a completely different scenario, people were forced against there will to get married, don't think this was still happening in the 80s (could be wrong on this).
The OP doesn't appear to have been forced to get married, but, felt pressured (probably to cover that he was gay), there is a big difference. It would be ok if his wife was aware from the start and was happy to go along with this, which I'm sure happened in some cases.
You say you didn't go through with marriage even though there was a possibility, was this because you knew it wouldn't work out and it was unfair on your partner?0 -
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Are you looking for approval for your infidelity, being gay doesn't give you the right to betray your wife whom you fooled into believing you loved her as a heterosexual man would love his wife, did you use her just as a conduit for children? You need to pull the plug and do the 2 of you a favour, blaming her for not talking about it only reinforces my belief that the lifestyle suited you until now and you were happy to lead her on a merry dance through the best part of her life,move out and let her get on with her life and stop lying and cheating to her and yourself0
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I didn't feel any pressure to be married in the 80's. And I come from a stereotypical rural Irish Catholic background.
Mind you I have lots of brothers so that might have been different If I was the first born or only male offspring.
My aunts especially were/are desperately Catholic. One of my aunts had 'word's' with me about not going to mass - I told her straight out I don't believe in God. That took care of that afaic. I took a casual approach to it and never worried about the Catholic relatives even my parents. Perhaps I was born in a time that I cold get away with that.0 -
What exactly are you looking for op? Is it too start a new relationship with a man? Have an open relationship with your wife, have gay sex? Or is it simply to have pubic acknowledgement because you've hidden it?0
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Op, I wish you well. It's a very tough situation you are in.
I think you should wait until your youngest is 22 before you come out to them.
Your wife seems in a situation where she is happy in her life and is aware of your situation but fears it could end the marriage if this conversation takes place maybe.
Like others I wish you well, I hope you can win the battle with your other issues.
As far as the affairs go, and I presume they were with men, I could criticise you over them but I've never been in the situation you are so I won't. My personal opinion on affairs is it shows huge disrespect to the person you share your life with.0 -
I understand there was a pressure to conform in the 80's and early 90's, but, I don't ever remember a pressure for anyone to get married - perhaps some people had an internal pressure to hide they were/are gay - why not just stay single rather than getting married knowing you were gay and involving other people into your lie - very selfish behaviour, you sacrificed her future happiness so that she could be your cover. Your wife has my sympathy.
plenty of people didn't get married at that time - not all of them were gay. At that time single people weren't automatically assumed to be gay as people weren't as aware of gay sexuality as we are today. Single people today are probably more likely to be assumed as gay than at anytime in the past.
Ah come on now, in the early 80s Ireland was still a very conservative Catholic country. There definitely was pressure to marry in the 80s.It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
Terry Pratchet
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What do you mean you would never leave your wife.Thats very unfair on her.Her best years where wasted with a man who didnt love her or fancy her.
You cant have your cake and eat it.Stay with your wife while you have affairs.Which im hoping by the way you are doing safely.
You need to bite the bullet and end your marriage and just take whats coming to you.Your poor wife.0 -
I'm fully understanding of the confusion and the difficulties people may have and I know people can get married without understanding all sorts of things and that marriages break up, but I would still say if you're married to someone or in a committed partnership of any type you have to be up front and honest and you absolutely do not cheat on them.
Being straight, bi or gay doesn't in anyway change that aspect. However, I would stress that people can make huge miscalculations when it comes to marriages and it's not only about LGBT+ issues, but they need to be able to start over.
I'm very wary of this whole piling on and lecturing from various moral high grounds about someone else's relationships or sexuality.0 -
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Joeytheparrot wrote: »Ah come on now, in the early 80s Ireland was still a very conservative Catholic country. There definitely was pressure to marry in the 80s.
There was some pressure to get married if you were in a steady relationship and not being allowed "live in sin" or have sex before marriage. If you weren't in a steady relationship there wasn't much pressure to get married, apart from the usual questions about when you were going to meet someone to settle down with, but , certainly not pressured into getting married. This was the same for everyone straight or gay, I accept that gay men felt under pressure and made every effort to hide their true identity at the time, but, the pressure was more from themselves than anyone else.
Also people who were single at the time weren't suspected to be gay as it wasn't in the public consciousness as it is now.
I can understand that there was a pressure to conform and have straight relationships, but, no need to let it get as far as marriage.0 -
There was some pressure to get married if you were in a steady relationship and not being allowed "live in sin" or have sex before marriage. If you weren't in a steady relationship there wasn't much pressure to get married, apart from the usual questions about when you were going to meet someone to settle down with, but , certainly not pressured into getting married. This was the same for everyone straight or gay, I accept that gay men felt under pressure and made every effort to hide their true identity at the time, but, the pressure was more from themselves than anyone else.
Also people who were single at the time weren't suspected to be gay as it wasn't in the public consciousness as it is now.
I can understand that there was a pressure to conform and have straight relationships, but, no need to let it get as far as marriage.
I agree with all you said. I think the pressure was there for some but it was ultimately self inflicted to marry, the same way some became priests, nuns, doctors or barristers (because their fathers were), stayed at home to work the farm because it was expected of them even though it was the last thing they wanted to do.
They could have stood up to it but didn't because the environment was too harsh and unforgiving to go against the grain.0 -
There was some pressure to get married if you were in a steady relationship and not being allowed "live in sin" or have sex before marriage. If you weren't in a steady relationship there wasn't much pressure to get married, apart from the usual questions about when you were going to meet someone to settle down with, but , certainly not pressured into getting married. This was the same for everyone straight or gay, I accept that gay men felt under pressure and made every effort to hide their true identity at the time, but, the pressure was more from themselves than anyone else.
Also people who were single at the time weren't suspected to be gay as it wasn't in the public consciousness as it is now.
I can understand that there was a pressure to conform and have straight relationships, but, no need to let it get as far as marriage.
I agree with all you said. I think the pressure was there for some but it was ultimately self inflicted to marry, the same way some became priests, nuns, doctors or barristers (because their fathers were), stayed at home to work the farm because it was expected of them even though it was the last thing they wanted to do.
They could have stood up to it but didn't because the environment was too harsh and unforgiving to go against the grain.0 -
All I’d say is don’t look at old Ireland through 2020 eyes. If you want to put it into perspective.
1992 - the last significant restrictions on sales of condoms lifted.
1992 - Absolutely Fabulous airs on BBC
1993 - Homosexuality decriminalised in Ireland.
1993 - Frazier and the X Files on tv Haddaway What is Love in charts.
1995 - Divorce introduced (with 4 of 5 year time out and barely passed by less than 1% in highly controversial referendum)
1995 - Father Ted airs, ER airs, Friends in second season and Star Trek Voyager Airs
2011 - civil partnership becomes possible.
2015 - marriage referendum. With first marriages taking place some months later.
2019 - divorce law modernised, removing highly draconian time out.
First same sex marriage in Northern Ireland was a few days ago.
We’ve moved a hell of a long way very rapidly.0 -
All I’d say is don’t look at old Ireland through 2020 eyes. If you want to put it into perspective.
1992 - the last significant restrictions on sales of condoms lifted.
1992 - Absolutely Fabulous airs on BBC
1993 - Homosexuality decriminalised in Ireland.
1993 - Frazier and the X Files on tv Haddaway What is Love in charts.
1995 - Divorce introduced (with 4 of 5 year time out and barely passed by less than 1% in highly controversial referendum)
1995 - Father Ted airs, ER airs, Friends in second season and Star Trek Voyager Airs
2011 - civil partnership becomes possible.
2015 - marriage referendum. With first marriages taking place some months later.
2019 - divorce law modernised, removing highly draconian time out.
First same sex marriage in Northern Ireland was a few days ago.
We’ve moved a hell of a long way very rapidly.
I agree we shouldn't judge the past by today's standards
and yea we've moved on rapidly that's for sure, but, I think people are fooling themselves if they say they were forced into marriage in the 90s, it was more a pressure they put on themselves. The only scenario in which people may have been forced to get married is when kids were involved.
The OP knew he was gay when he got married and appears to have had numerous affairs during his marriage (presumably with men), this kind of behaviour cannot be condoned within any marriage or long term relationship ( straight or gay). .0
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