Is the 201 class doomed for imminent withdrawn?

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 12:06am

Isambard wrote: »

BPWR?

My guess was wrong. I meant the CB&PR. Fixed it.

GT89 · 05-02-2021 12:18am

Isambard wrote: »

that's because they are huge. Ireland isn't end of story

I agree there isn't a big market for railfreight in Ireland but I do think it has some potential to grow which should be looked at. Not to volumes there once was but I could see some more demand for I and with a bit of support for it there is some degree of potential.

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 12:23am

Is there any chance of new freight stock being purchased?
Would we have any home of getting a few new locomotives? Perhaps something smaller, more manageable size and weight that gives the PW lesss of a beating than the overly heavy 201s which destroy the PW.

end of the road · 05-02-2021 2:03am

i would have once said no chance, but i think going forward it's certainly possible.
i think in the future we will be forced to increase rail freight by some bit whether we want to or not, it will be forced on us i reccan.
we won't ever see the amounts once carried but certainly room for growth, and it would be better for it to happen at the hands of ireland itself rather then it being pushed on us.
time will tell.

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 2:25am

I'd love to see freight flows coming back up. God it would be some sight to behold.
Pockets, barytes, Tara mines, ammonia, beet, cement, Asahi, timber, liners, bitumen, fuel tankers, livestock wagons, complemented with the 071s, a few reactivated leased back baby GMs, and possibly a Metrovick or two, but that might be asking a bit much.

If new freight rolling stock was to be aquired, would there be much hope of a few new mid-range locomotives?

dublinman1990 · 05-02-2021 8:37am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd love to see freight flows coming back up. God it would be some sight to behold.
Pockets, barytes, Tara mines, ammonia, beet, cement, Asahi, timber, liners, bitumen, fuel tankers, livestock wagons, complemented with the 071s, a few reactivated leased back baby GMs, and possibly a Metrovick or two, but that might be asking a bit much.

If new freight rolling stock was to be aquired, would there be much hope of a few new mid-range locomotives?

From one perspective; there is probably no advantages right now in IÉ buying new electric diesel locomotives that need OHLE fitted to run them in the 1st place. A lot of the newer diesel locomotives used throughout Continental Europe are currently supplied with a Hybrid/Electric powered engine. We have a lack of infrastructure in our case at the moment because IÉ currently do not have OHLE infrastructure installed on the rest of it's rail network outside of the GDA. I would assume that IÉ just have exchequer funding set aside for OHLE installation for DART+ at this current time when compared to the rest of their rail network.

Although; there could a possibility from IÉ's pov to ask GM if there was any new hybrid powered engine technologies from their current railway rolling stock portfolio from GM's factories to see if it can be compatible with older rolling stock which could then allow IÉ to refurbish their IÉ's 071 & 201 class locomotives in the future. If there was such a scope of supplies available from GM for this new equipment; that would be a huge advantage to IÉ at this current time from an infrastructure pov because it can be done on a lower cost than expected for the taxpayer. IÉ wouldn't actually need to acquire big amounts of government funding to supply themselves with buying new diesel electric locomotives for their freight business & OHLE from other suppliers.

The suitable scenario that I could see here when IÉ buys new diesel electric locomotives is when most or the remainder of their GM IÉ diesel stock is deemed no longer fit for purpose on our rail network. If they had the option to actually refurbish the remaining GM stock with GM Hybrid Engines; it would be great news if that sort of work could be done very quickly. But the big questions to be asked here is what type of work would be involved in this project? If GM were able to supply new hybrid engines for IE's rolling stock. You probably would have to ask them whether this technology would be much heavier to use on IÉ's PW rather than sticking with full diesel engines? Does the hybrid engine need to fitted with new GM parts only or can they supplied from another manufacturers?

GT89 · 05-02-2021 9:37am

It will be a cold day in hell before IE even think about buying new locos. I really cannot see it happening until all locos they currently have are clapped out.

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 9:42am

If there were to be fitted with gear for ohle operation, I'm sure any brand is equipment could be used as long as it's suitable. It all comes down to tenders.

It would be all electrical equipment just to bypass the existing generator and basically condition, regulate and connect the power from the ohle to the existing traction motors in the bogies. Whether there is enough room in the engine rooms to accommodate it would be the main hurdle.

But anyway, there wouldn't be much point in fitting then with ohle gear when the ohle network is only very limited . There would be no advantage at all when most locomotive work would be intercity and freight

Isambard · 05-02-2021 10:06am

GT89 wrote: »

It will be a cold day in hell before IE even think about buying new locos. I really cannot see it happening until all locos they currently have are clapped out.

Yes, I think they'll have to bite the mk4 bullet when the 201s get to that point but they won't buy new locos, more railcars probably modular dual electric and diesel like some foreign lines. A small number of locos would need to be re-engineered to cover freight and infrastructure needs. You really can't expect them to be allowed to continue using the current old technology when road transport has to meet strict pollution standards

Del.Monte · 05-02-2021 10:56am

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd love to see freight flows coming back up. God it would be some sight to behold.
Pockets, barytes, Tara mines, ammonia, beet, cement, Asahi, timber, liners, bitumen, fuel tankers, livestock wagons, complemented with the 071s, a few reactivated leased back baby GMs, and possibly a Metrovick or two, but that might be asking a bit much.

If new freight rolling stock was to be aquired, would there be much hope of a few new mid-range locomotives?

I really don't get what your talking about, the railways are not one giant plaything for enthusiasts.and, if your serious, many of your posts do little to promote rail investment. Why would you want to see train loads of Asahi, Ammonia and Beet wagons as the factories formerly served by them no longer exist?

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 11:20am

Not necesssary those flows since they are obviously defunct, but to see flows of a similar nature started up.

I think there are some crazy non-sensical moves being made. Moving the Port of Cork to ringaskiddy is a death nail for railfreight in Cork. Unless the greenway is reverted to a railway and a spur built on from Rafeen to Ringaskiddy. which is very unlikely. Although with the Phara industried down there it could be a very busy line. I can imagine it doubling as a commutter line taking a few thousand down to ringaskiddy every day.
I can envisage that it would be possible to keep some sort of a greenway alongside by widening the PW on the CB&PR.

Moving a major port away from the rail network with no prospect of a re-connection or extension is pure madness. The people of Carrigaline, Shanbally and Douglas and Rochestown are very angry with the POrt and the massive volumes of truck traffic they will be sending through their areas. Not to mention, the ramming of a motorway through the land.

It makes sense from an industry, commutter and freight and environmental point of view to recconect the Port of Cork to the rail network.

goingnowhere · 05-02-2021 12:03pm

There was a project which went to tender to reengineer the 201 with a new engine package. It would retain the DC traction motors so would not match the performance of a modern locomotive

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/113006/0/0?returnUrl=&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Tender was abandoned based on the responses.

The only real hope for freight if the Foynes thing happens, been talk about Foynes for decades

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 12:11pm

Could the removed EMD 710-16s engine/generator skid units then be re-used in de-rated form to re-engine the 071s? Or perhaps drop into the likes of an A class metrovick or a 101 class? If it were to happen there would be a whole raft of relatively good nick 710-16s available for re-use.

end of the road · 05-02-2021 12:33pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd love to see freight flows coming back up. God it would be some sight to behold.
Pockets, barytes, Tara mines, ammonia, beet, cement, Asahi, timber, liners, bitumen, fuel tankers, livestock wagons, complemented with the 071s, a few reactivated leased back baby GMs, and possibly a Metrovick or two, but that might be asking a bit much.

If new freight rolling stock was to be aquired, would there be much hope of a few new mid-range locomotives?

i would say it's an aweful lot to ask, as it's unlikely we will see big industries like those here again.
very very unlikely IE would lease back locos from the ITG, some of them would require complete restoration to be operable, it's just not going to happen realistically.
the ones in working order would also require some work, probably not impossible in their case but unlikely i would believe.

end of the road · 05-02-2021 12:34pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Could the removed EMD 710-16s engine/generator skid units then be re-used in de-rated form to re-engine the 071s? Or perhaps drop into the likes of an A class metrovick or a 101 class? If it were to happen there would be a whole raft of relatively good nick 710-16s available for re-use.

the 710 is too big i believe so won't fit the older classes.

91wx763 · 05-02-2021 12:37pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Could the removed EMD 710-16s engine/generator skid units then be re-used in de-rated form to re-engine the 071s? Or perhaps drop into the likes of an A class metrovick or a 101 class? If it were to happen there would be a whole raft of relatively good nick 710-16s available for re-use.

I think yer on the funny fags.

There are 2 preserved A classes, 1 wrecked A class,and 1 A class shell in a pub. There's 1 "101" class of each flavour. They all have a purpose of sorts. And are over 60 years old.

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 12:44pm

1 101 class of each flavour? I thought there was only 1 101 class left? B103 in Carrick on Suir.

Where is the wrecked A class?

Isambard · 05-02-2021 12:56pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Could the removed EMD 710-16s engine/generator skid units then be re-used in de-rated form to re-engine the 071s? Or perhaps drop into the likes of an A class metrovick or a 101 class? If it were to happen there would be a whole raft of relatively good nick 710-16s available for re-use.

oh do stop.

andrewfaulk · 05-02-2021 12:58pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Could the removed EMD 710-16s engine/generator skid units then be re-used in de-rated form to re-engine the 071s? Or perhaps drop into the likes of an A class metrovick or a 101 class? If it were to happen there would be a whole raft of relatively good nick 710-16s available for re-use.

16 Cylinders? Why would you need that much power in Ireland? A 12Cyl is more than enough

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 12:59pm

Well that is what the 710s in the 201 IIs are. I don't know were the 710s available as 12s.

What did the tenderers propose for re-engining the 201s? Was it an EMD or CAT?

andrewfaulk · 05-02-2021 1:01pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Not necesssary those flows since they are obviously defunct, but to see flows of a similar nature started up.

I think there are some crazy non-sensical moves being made. Moving the Port of Cork to ringaskiddy is a death nail for railfreight in Cork. Unless the greenway is reverted to a railway and a spur built on from Rafeen to Ringaskiddy. which is very unlikely. Although with the Phara industried down there it could be a very busy line. I can imagine it doubling as a commutter line taking a few thousand down to ringaskiddy every day.
I can envisage that it would be possible to keep some sort of a greenway alongside by widening the PW on the CB&PR.

Moving a major port away from the rail network with no prospect of a re-connection or extension is pure madness. The people of Carrigaline, Shanbally and Douglas and Rochestown are very angry with the POrt and the massive volumes of truck traffic they will be sending through their areas. Not to mention, the ramming of a motorway through the land.

It makes sense from an industry, commutter and freight and environmental point of view to recconect the Port of Cork to the rail network.

Rail freight is dead in Cork anyway, and Tivoli brings in so many restrictions on vessel operations that it makes perfect sense to move the Port out to Ringaskiddy where the is deep water and no tidal restrictions..

Not that Cork really has anything much to move by rail.. Cork Port mainly deals with imports and exports to/from Co.Cork and South Munster, which is no where near long enough a haul for rail to be viable..

Isambard · 05-02-2021 1:04pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

My guess was wrong. I meant the CB&PR. Fixed it.

A former narrow gauge line , closed in 1931 iirc, with a very restricted tunnel in the way which doesn't really go anywhere near enough, to be considered.

andrewfaulk · 05-02-2021 1:07pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Well that is what the 710s in the 201 IIs are. I don't know were the 710s available as 12s.

What did the tenderers propose for re-engining the 201s? Was it an EMD or CAT?

The 201s have a 12-701G3B.. The 12- means its a 12Cyl..

16 Cyls would be used for US main line locos, putting out about 4000HP.. It wouldn't fit in a 201, and would shake apart a 60 year old logo at about notch 4!

Not sure if you are trolling people at this stage or what, but guessing your next suggestion will be that all the cargo on the IWT liners should be devanned into the point depot and then loaded into loose coupled H vans to be hauled by an E class loco(with the engine from a 2700DMU and a pantograph from at 8200 class DART) to Ballina.. or that Tara mines should be carried in bullied open wagons with tarps and offloaded by stout dockers with shovels on arrival to Dublin Port

bk · 05-02-2021 1:14pm

GT89 wrote: »

I do think for it to possible there does need to be some EU support to increase the amount of rail freight as part of a joined up strategy. I believe Europe as a whole has the lowest volume of rail freight compared to Russia, China and the USA.

A lot of this comes down to geography, population density, etc.

There is no point in building rail freight just for the sake of it, it needs to offer advantages over the alternatives.

In the EU, the focus of rail is on moving people quickly, rather then freight. I don't think any of us would want the US rail network which carries so few people!

This really comes down to geography. The EU is relatively small compared to those regions you mention and it has a very high population density and many big cities are ports.

As a result, for the most part it is easier and cheaper to just ship freight directly into each cities ports, then it is to move it across the EU by rail. Even road haulage across the EU is relatively quick given the shorter distances.

There is some rail freight in Europe of course, but it just isn't as badly needed.

By comparison, US, Russia, China are vastly larger, with vast areas of largely empty land and often they need to move freight across vast distances , 1000's ok KM to inland cities for whom sea transport isn't an option.

Basically when your only options are rail, road or air, rail can often win, but when you add sea as an option, rail freight becomes less attractive.

Ireland has similar issues, you literally couldn't get a country less suited to rail freight:

- Small island, not connected to any other countries rail network (so no through traffic).
- Every city has a big port
- Excellent road network, just 3 hours or less to any city.
- Little or no heavy industry or mining
- Industry mostly service oriented, people rather then goods.
- What little industry we do have is small, light and mostly just in time.

The business case simply isn't there for much rail freight in Ireland, the fundamentals simply aren't there.

Don't get me wrong, no harm in continuing to eeck out profit from whatever rail freight demand is there with whatever pre-existing infrastructure, locos and wagons they have.

But it really doesn't make sense for Irish Rail to invest heavily in new infrastructure for rail freight if the business case and fundamentals simply aren't there.

It would be just a distraction from where rail is badly needed here, which is mass commuting in our cities.

Del.Monte · 05-02-2021 1:44pm

But, but, but what about train loads of empty wagons hauled by rebuilt A-class locos re-engined with power units out of 201 class locos painted in 1950s flying snail livery on the Curragh?

andrewfaulk · 05-02-2021 1:50pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

But, but, but what about train loads of empty wagons hauled by rebuilt A-class locos re-engined with power units out of 201 class locos painted in 1950s flying snail livery on the Curragh?

I think those were retired and replaced by a Bulleid turf burner with a flux capacitor, re-gauge F Class bogies and an EM2000 computer from a 201 hauling ex MGWR 6 wheel coaches with the roofs taken off and the windows boarded up

end of the road · 05-02-2021 2:08pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

1 101 class of each flavour? I thought there was only 1 101 class left? B103 in Carrick on Suir.

Where is the wrecked A class?

northern ireland railways had a class of 3 locos called 101 class, built by hunslet.
i think b102 is the one that survives out of that class and is in cultra, apparently it's missing a lot of bits so would take a serious amount of work to get running.
it's the only surviving english electric engined locomotive on the island of ireland as far as i know so is a unique item.

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 2:12pm

Oh yes I know the NIR 101 class. They had a shed-like roof. It was just the CIE 101 Class i was talking about.

end of the road · 05-02-2021 2:13pm

91wx763 wrote: »

I think yer on the funny fags.

There are 2 preserved A classes, 1 wrecked A class,and 1 A class shell in a pub. There's 1 "101" class of each flavour. They all have a purpose of sorts. And are over 60 years old.

don't forget the 2 c classes as well.

a15 i think is the aclass that is wrecked or is that the one in the pub?

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 2:20pm

I always thought the Hells Kitchen one was a C class?

Isn't there a 201 class, C227 laid up in a bad way in Kilmacow or Mullinavat area? I think it is renumbered as C202 after being on display in Caherciveen.

end of the road · 05-02-2021 2:27pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I always thought the Hells Kitchen one was a C class?

Isn't there a 201 class, C227 laid up in a bad way in Kilmacow or Mullinavat area? I think it is renumbered as C202 after being on display in Caherciveen.

no the one in the pub is an aclass.
c202/c227 still exists yes but where it is now i don't know.
it's only the body anyway i believe.

TheBoyConor · 05-02-2021 2:34pm

It is in a yard somewhere in south Kilkenny. I used to know the location on the map, but I cannot find it now.
But yes, it is in a bad way. Engine room is empty with most of the floor missing too. There are bogies but the motors were attacked by metal theives for the copper.

Del.Monte · 05-02-2021 2:57pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It is in a yard somewhere in south Kilkenny. I used to know the location on the map, but I cannot find it now.
But yes, it is in a bad way. Engine room is empty with most of the floor missing too. There are bogies but the motors were attacked by metal theives for the copper.

Still, it could be rebuilt to haul train loads of beet in de-roofed 29000 railcars to a non-existent sugar factory.

andrewfaulk · 05-02-2021 3:16pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

It is in a yard somewhere in south Kilkenny. I used to know the location on the map, but I cannot find it now.
But yes, it is in a bad way. Engine room is empty with most of the floor missing too. There are bogies but the motors were attacked by metal theives for the copper.

I'm sure it's all cosmetic and will polish out, few new nuts n bolts and a couple of cable ties and it'll take a V-24 no bother

Losty Dublin · 05-02-2021 3:48pm

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Could the removed EMD 710-16s engine/generator skid units then be re-used in de-rated form to re-engine the 071s? Or perhaps drop into the likes of an A class metrovick or a 101 class? If it were to happen there would be a whole raft of relatively good nick 710-16s available for re-use.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrIRr9arkM

end of the road · 05-02-2021 5:14pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Still, it could be rebuilt to haul train loads of beet in de-roofed 29000 railcars to a non-existent sugar factory.

more likely they would be stuck on the rosslare instead, but fully gutted.

Itssoeasy · 05-02-2021 5:18pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrrIRr9arkM

:D I never thought I’d see dads army referenced in a thread about trains. Dads army is great btw.

Itssoeasy · 05-02-2021 5:25pm

end of the road wrote: »

no the one in the pub is an aclass.
c202/c227 still exists yes but where it is now i don't know.
it's only the body anyway i believe.

Is the one in the pub A015 or 055 ? It’s got a 5 in it I believe.

Losty Dublin · 05-02-2021 5:26pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

:D I never thought I’d see dads army referenced in a thread about trains. Dads army is great btw.

Did ya not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Xw64yuKB0

Itssoeasy · 05-02-2021 5:27pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Still, it could be rebuilt to haul train loads of beet in de-roofed 29000 railcars to a non-existent sugar factory.

And sure with the gangways you could a good lot more beet into them. Could use the toilets as well.

Itssoeasy · 05-02-2021 5:28pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Did ya not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Xw64yuKB0

Well I knew about that episode just never expected it to referenced here is what I meant.

Losty Dublin · 05-02-2021 5:40pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Is the one in the pub A015 or 055 ? It’s got a 5 in it I believe.

A55 is the one in Hell's Kitchen, Castlerea.

end of the road · 05-02-2021 6:52pm

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Is the one in the pub A015 or 055 ? It’s got a 5 in it I believe.

i was trying to remember that today myself, i thought between 015 and 005 but it is 055.
015 is at the WCR i believe along with 003.

Itssoeasy · 05-02-2021 6:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

i was trying to remember that today myself, i thought between 015 and 005 but it is 055.
015 is at the WCR i believe along with 003.

I knew my random knowledge would come in handy some day.

Is the 201 class doomed for imminent withdrawn?

Comments