Gillette | Toxic masculinity advert.

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2019 1:07pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This is all true, but why can't we dismantle these messages in a positive way, not in a scolding or chiding way?

The ad, along with the relentless stream of similar headlines in recent years, is implying that most of us are "problematic" in some way.

That's not the same as telling women that because some women are bad people, most of them are responsible or that enough of them are bad people to warrant an ad campaign about it.

But you've said yourself. "Women are pushing back against that" - and yet many are now cheering because it's happening to us, too. That just comes across as petty, bitter, hypocritical and just straight up being an asshole. It doesn't matter if women love the Gillette ad, any more than it would matter if men loved an ad telling women to become better women in the eyes of men - indeed, women loving it is another symptom of the fact that society is ok with men being generalised and condescended to, but not the reverse.

I don't want to get into a multi-quote thang so I'll be brief.

Yes, I think things have flipped too far the other way into men are stupid/useless type ads in recent years - push back.

The messages sent to women are different but just as harmful. It's to see other women as competition (for men usually), to strive to 'have it ALL' (career, husband, kids, SUV, house that looks like a showroom, perfect body, great sex life, superb culinary skills...). It's Career Girl meets Nigella in Wonder Woman's body. Women police each other via glossy magazines.
Women are not portrayed as members of a pack (yes, I know that's B.S) in the way men are (oh - ye band of brothers) so the focus is different. Just as harmful, but different.

I think, tbh, you are misinterpreting what the reaction of women means - it isn't petty - it's relief that an ad aimed at men is attempting to answer the age old question what do women want? - those are the men that women want. It's not saying you have to be like this - it's saying we would like you to be like this.

As for ads aimed at women - you do realise most of those are made by men yeah?

Muckka · 17-01-2019 1:12pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't want to get into a multi-quote thang so I'll be brief.

Yes, I think things have flipped too far the other way into men are stupid/useless type ads in recent years - push back.

The messages sent to women are different but just as harmful. It's to see other women as competition (for men usually), to strive to 'have it ALL' (career, husband, kids, SUV, house that looks like a showroom, perfect body, great sex life, superb culinary skills...). It's Career Girl meets Nigella in Wonder Woman's body. Women police each other via glossy magazines.
Women are not portrayed as members of a pack (yes, I know that's B.S) in the way men are (oh - ye band of brothers) so the focus is different. Just as harmful, but different.

I think, tbh, you are misinterpreting what the reaction of women means - it isn't petty - it's relief that an ad aimed at men is attempting to answer the age old question what do women want? - those are the men that women want. It's not saying you have to be like this - it's saying we would like you to be like this.

As for ads aimed at women - you do realise most of those are made by men yeah?

THOSE ARE NOT THE MEN THAT WOMEN WANT.

Those are the men which society wants us to be, soften us down, manshaming etc

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2019 1:13pm

markodaly wrote: »

To be honest, men dont really say that **** to each other. I know, I have been one for over 5 decades.

Its mostly American soundbites perpetuated by American culture. Its about as real as the Irish saying 'to be sure, to be sure'.

As an aside from toxic masculinity, is there a female equivalent?

This is an American ad aimed at the American market.

However, given we have a serious problem with male suicide in this country (not to mention too many murder/suicides where men have killed their wives and/or children) maybe a long hard look and dialogue about Irish notions of what constitutes true masculinity would be a good idea.

And yes, I already spoke about toxic femininity.

An_Toirpin · 17-01-2019 1:15pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As for the notion of 'real' women - you must have missed out on decades of ads and glossy magazines if you think such a concept doesn't exist.

And that brings us to feminism - one of the things feminism has done is work to shatter the old concept of what a real woman is and the whole concept of femininity and yes, it's a work in progress as there are a lot of residual subconscious messages still floating around. And no, feminism doesn't have all the answers, and no - it's not a hive mind so there are disagreements. But there is a dialogue happening.

Is this why women today have never been so unhappy, since data has become available? Liberation :rolleyes:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/whats-happening-to-womens_b_289511
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/the-chart-that-shows-how-feminism-is-ruining-womens-lives/

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2019 1:24pm

Muckka wrote: »

THOSE ARE NOT THE MEN THAT WOMEN WANT.

Those are the men which society wants us to be, soften us down, manshaming etc

Sorry to burst your bubble there but it is. Listen, I have no skin in this game as I have zero interest in men except as platonic friends but yes, women do want those kind of men. Men who step in when other men are being dicks. Men who break up the kids fighting - while cooking! Men who are supportive. Men who express their feelings. Help around the house would also be very welcome.

If you think these things are manshaming tbh that says more about your concept of masculinity than what women want.

markodaly · 17-01-2019 1:26pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

This is an American ad aimed at the American market.

However, given we have a serious problem with male suicide in this country (not to mention too many murder/suicides where men have killed their wives and/or children) maybe a long hard look and dialogue about Irish notions of what constitutes true masculinity would be a good idea.

And yes, I already spoke about toxic femininity.

I am not sure how one equates higher rates of male suicide to notions of what is or is not true masculinity. Broad strokes and all that. As Wibbs said, its in the west where suicide is more pervasive. The west is MUCH more egalitarian than the rest of the world.

See this is one of the problems with the narrative of what is or is not true masculinity. Someone takes a problem like say higher rates of male suicides and blames it on toxic masculinity as if that is the easy answer for all men's ills. Just be more like women. It's a happy meal solution, one that does not require any critical thinking.

As to toxic femininity, when can we expect the Irish Times or Dove to address that?... probably never.

Wibbs · 17-01-2019 1:27pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I think, tbh, you are misinterpreting what the reaction of women means - it isn't petty - it's relief that an ad aimed at men is attempting to answer the age old question what do women want? - those are the men that women want. It's not saying you have to be like this - it's saying we would like you to be like this.

And there you go again extrapolating what you want to Women™ in general. A tad solipsistic. Though that's a trait I have found to be far more evident in the feminine rather than the masculine. Never mind that it has been my experience that the guys who exhibit many of the traits(within reason of course) you consider toxic are the guys who get more attention and action from Women™ than the more agreeable, introverted, more compliant guys Women™ apparently want. That can be a source of confusion for many a young man.

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2019 1:29pm

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Is this why women today have never been so unhappy, since data has become available? Liberation :rolleyes:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/whats-happening-to-womens_b_289511
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/the-chart-that-shows-how-feminism-is-ruining-womens-lives/

Where is the data for pre-women's liberation?

Look - this thread shouldn't be about feminism. It shouldn't be about Us Vs Them.

It should be about whether there is or is not a problem with traditional concepts of masculinity that is harmful to MEN.

Why are people trying to make this about women?

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2019 1:31pm

Wibbs wrote: »

And there you go again extrapolating what you want to Women™ in general. A tad solipsistic. Though that's a trait I have found to be far more evident in the feminine rather than the masculine. Never mind that it has been my experience that the guys who exhibit many of the traits(within reason of course) you consider toxic are the guys who get more attention and action from Women™ than the more agreeable, introverted, more compliant guys Women™ apparently want. That can be a source of confusion for many a young man.

Why are we still talking about women in a thread about an ad aimed at men?

Seems like deflection.

Never said masculinity is toxic. I said there are aspects of it that are. Also said there are aspects of femininity that are toxic. Not sure what the hell else you want from me. I am not getting into a discussion of toxic femininity or feminism in a thread about perceptions of toxic masculinity.

Ush1 · 17-01-2019 1:31pm

Lumen wrote: »

The only situation in which self-defensive violence is necessary is when you're with a person who has insisted on crippling their running ability with ridiculous clothing choices.

If there's a campaign to be fought it's against stupid shoes. Stand with me brothers.

Unfortunately that isn't the case.

Lumen wrote: »

Was. We are not evolving any more.

Civilisation is what we have created to leave that behind. We live in a society where (fortunately) health and happiness are no longer dependent on having the biggest fists. As a 70kg weakling this pleases me. This is my time!

Animals are constantly evolving. The civilisation we have created remember is underpinned by the threat of violence ultimately.

If you don't let the state take a bunch of your money in taxes they will physically take you and lock you up. From police to armies fighting wars to border patrols removing illegal immigrants.

It is your time and that's a good thing, but it might only be your time because bad guys get locked up prison.

Wibbs · 17-01-2019 1:31pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble there but it is. Listen, I have no skin in this game as I have zero interest in men except as platonic friends but yes, women do want those kind of men. Men who step in when other men are being dicks. Men who break up the kids fighting - while cooking! Men who are supportive. Men who express their feelings. Help around the house would also be very welcome.

Gay woman tells men what straight women want? Hell its hard enough to get a straight(no pun) answer from straight women on that question. If I were a woman, I doubt I'd ask a Gay lad what Straight men wanted in a woman. Never mind that people, men and women(though I have found women slightly worse for this) will say one thing and then actually go for something very different.

Muckka · 17-01-2019 1:31pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Sorry to burst your bubble there but it is. Listen, I have no skin in this game as I have zero interest in men except as platonic friends but yes, women do want those kind of men. Men who step in when other men are being dicks. Men who break up the kids fighting - while cooking! Men who are supportive. Men who express their feelings. Help around the house would also be very welcome.

If you think these things are manshaming tbh that says more about your concept of masculinity than what women want.

If there was a catastrophic failure in society, I'm sure women would like a real man, not one of those cucks that Gillette want's us to be or aspire to be.

My concept of masculinity is ok, you'rs well from reading your posts, you seem to get stuck in and rise people, then stand back get offended by their reaction.
Then get outraged, then go running telling tales to the virtual security.

You know nothing about men, nothing...

Muckka · 17-01-2019 1:33pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Gay woman tells men what straight women want? Hell its hard enough to get a straight(no pun) answer from straight women on that question. If I were a woman, I doubt I'd ask a Gay lad what Straight men wanted in a woman. Never mind that people, men and women(though I have found women slightly worse for this) will say one thing and then actually go for something very different.

She screams narcissm.....to the highest order.
She should go protest somewhere else....

Wibbs · 17-01-2019 1:34pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why are we still talking about women in an ad aimed at men?

Seems like deflection.

I'm not so sure you know what that word means, though ironically you're attempting to do it.

You brought up the "Women™ love this ad". You brought up "What Women™ want". Not me. I'm merely replying to you and questioning your sources and confident expertise on that.

Lumen · 17-01-2019 1:36pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Unfortunately that isn't the case.

Can you give an example to back up your assertion?

Ush1 wrote: »

The civilisation we have created remember is underpinned by the threat of violence ultimately.

If you don't let the state take a bunch of your money in taxes they will physically take you and lock you up. From police to armies fighting wars to border patrols removing illegal immigrants.

It is your time and that's a good thing, but it might only be your time because bad guys get locked up prison.

Eh, OK. I don't see what any of that has to do with what I posted or the rest of this thread.

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2019 1:36pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Gay woman tells men what straight women want? Hell its hard enough to get a straight(no pun) answer from straight women on that question. If I were a woman, I doubt I'd ask a Gay lad what Straight men wanted in a woman. Never mind that people, men and women(though I have found women slightly worse for this) will say one thing and then actually go for something very different.

You obviously don't have much experience of the relationships between gay men and straight women if you don't realise that is exactly what happens.

Ush1 · 17-01-2019 1:42pm

Lumen wrote: »

Can you give an example to back up your assertion?

Because you can't escape. I'm sure many women who get raped or people who are violently assaulted tried to run away but for many reasons couldn't escape. Maybe the attacked was faster than them? Perhaps multiple attackers or they may have already been injured.

Lumen wrote: »

Eh, OK. I don't see what any of that has to do with what I posted or the rest of this thread.

If has to do with the idea that we can live in a civilisation without violence.

Muckka · 17-01-2019 1:42pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You obviously don't have much experience of the relationships between gay men and straight women if you don't realise that is exactly what happens.

Well you're not a straight woman..... exist doors thataway.....

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2019 1:43pm

Muckka wrote: »

If there was a catastrophic failure in society, I'm sure women would like a real man, not one of those cucks that Gillette want's us to be or aspire to be.

My concept of masculinity is ok, you'rs well from reading your posts, you seem to get stuck in and rise people, then stand back get offended by their reaction.
Then get outraged, then go running telling tales to the virtual security.

You know nothing about men, nothing...

I'm not even slightly outraged. I am having a discussion. That's all. No 'rising' people. But it would seem some people are getting outraged at finding out that not everyone thinks John Wayne is the be all and end all of masculinity.

As for the running to security comment you seem to be implying I report posts if I disagree with them. What a strange - and a wee bit paranoid- accusation.
I just click unfollow when I think it's become an echo chamber of outraged masculines.

Muckka · 17-01-2019 1:44pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm not even slightly outraged. I am having a discussion. That's all. No 'rising' people. But it would seem some people are getting outraged at finding out that not everyone thinks John Wayne is the be all and end all of masculinity.

As for the running to security comment you seem to be implying I report posts if I disagree with them. What a strange - and a wee bit paranoid- accusation.
I just click unfollow when I think it's become an echo chamber of outraged masculines.

John Wayne, would you ever get a grip.
We're not in the 60's

It's Chuck Norris nowadays....

Do you want us all to be pussies ?

Lumen · 17-01-2019 1:46pm

Ush1 wrote: »

Because you can't escape. I'm sure many women who get raped or people who are violently assaulted tried to run away but for many reasons couldn't escape. Maybe the attacked was faster than them? Perhaps multiple attackers or they may have already been injured.

Agreed. However, I wonder what proportion of violent incidents fall into that truly last resort category.

Ush1 wrote: »

If has to do with the idea that we can live in a civilisation without violence.

Has anybody suggested that we can?

17-01-2019 1:53pm

Muckka wrote: »

It's Chuck Norris nowadays.... Do you want us all to be pussies ?

On a slightly side note I did get involved in a conversation looking for examples of "masculine" that would demonstrate a purer non-"toxic" version of masculinity. Basically if you had to name someone who strikes you as "masculine" and not at all toxic who would it be.

In the end me and the people I was talking with settled on Jocko Willink who checks most of the boxes on what people think "masculine" looks like but to people who know him he tends to be described as a large pussy cat - open about his feelings - hyper respectful of others - seemingly no toxic behaviours to or about women and so on.

Of course he might turn out to be the exact opposite and the next person to be outed as awful and horrible. But so far he seems to be a pretty good example to use. I know relatively nothing about Chuck Norris except for the comical Chuck Norris Memes.

Ush1 · 17-01-2019 1:54pm

Lumen wrote: »

Agreed. However, I wonder what proportion of violent incidents fall into that truly last resort category.

Many, look at any news reports of violent assault or even murders. Particularly scary was last year the number of especially violent crimes by teenagers on one another(the young girl in Lucan and the boy in Louth). Also, 70kg is plenty heavy enough to throw a dig.

Lumen wrote: »

Has anybody suggested that we can?

Lumen wrote:

Was. We are not evolving any more.

Civilisation is what we have created to leave that behind.

Bannasidhe · 17-01-2019 1:58pm

Muckka wrote: »

John Wayne, would you ever get a grip.
We're not in the 60's

It's Chuck Norris nowadays....

Do you want us all to be pussies ?

Chuck Norris is so 80s.

Now it's Chris Hemsworth, Hugh Jackman, Ryan Gosling, Ryan Reynolds.

I don't want you all to be anything.

I'm simply suggesting a having a dialogue about masculinity is not a bad thing.

conorhal · 17-01-2019 2:03pm

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

With regard to questioning what you're doing with your time, I'd almost argue that the opposite is the case.

If your answer is "yes", to any one of these questions, then it's a sure fire sign you're spending far too much time online and not enough time in the real world.

1. Do you think men are being oppressed by the feminists?
2. Do you think vaccines cause autism?
3. Do you use the words "liberal" or "leftist" as a catchall term for any trendy affectation that rankles with you without really understanding what either word means?

Are you prone to bizzare hyperbole?

1) In the case of intersectional feminism, Yes (how can it be otherwise with an ideology that determines what your rights or entitlements are based solely on your genitalia or skin colour and where that places you in a grevience hierarchy?)
2) No
3) I don't think many leftists or liberals, given the rather nasty authoritarian streak that they've displayed lately, seem to understand what those terms mean either frankly.

17-01-2019 2:07pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I'm simply suggesting a having a dialogue about masculinity is not a bad thing.

That is a suggestion I agree with and I think such discourse is a good thing. A lot of it from me focuses on the idea that "masculinity" quite often is not even a thing.

For example a user in the last few points listed a few things about "real masculinity" as "proection of the weak, strength, responsibility, self sacrifice, leadership".

Forget masculinity. They are all traits I find potentially equally beneficial in all _people_. Not men or women. Not masculine or Feminine. Just people in general.

My concern with words like "masculine" and "feminine" is it creates divisions we do not need, that are not even there, and that suggest beneficial traits are the sole purview or pursuit of any one gender over another. My girlfriends are the most self sacrificing, responsible, strong people I know who are more than willing at any time to protect the weak for example. Maybe I am gay and am attracted to the masculinity in them? Or maybe the concept of masculinity is too nebulous and mostly fabricated.

An_Toirpin · 17-01-2019 2:10pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Where is the data for pre-women's liberation?

Look - this thread shouldn't be about feminism. It shouldn't be about Us Vs Them.

It should be about whether there is or is not a problem with traditional concepts of masculinity that is harmful to MEN.

Why are people trying to make this about women?

Because the purpose of masculinity is intrinsically linked to femininity. It evolved that way. If you want men to be different then ask women to seek something different.

An_Toirpin · 17-01-2019 2:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

That is a suggestion I agree with and I think such discourse is a good thing. A lot of it from me focuses on the idea that "masculinity" quite often is not even a thing.

For example a user in the last few points listed a few things about "real masculinity" as "proection of the weak, strength, responsibility, self sacrifice, leadership".

Forget masculinity. They are all traits I find potentially equally beneficial in all _people_. Not men or women. Not masculine or Feminine. Just people in general.

Women seek out these qualities in men. Men do not seek out these qualities in women.

conorhal · 17-01-2019 2:13pm

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Because the purpose of masculinity is intrinsically linked to femininity. It evolved that way. If you want men to be different then ask women to seek something different.

According to Psychology Today even feminists can't stand 'woke men'....

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/women-who-stray/201812/feminists-think-sexist-men-are-sexier-woke-men

What hope do you have when even feminists don't desire the change they're demanding!

17-01-2019 2:18pm

An_Toirpin wrote: »

Women seek out these qualities in men. Men do not seek out these qualities in women.

Speak for your own you do not speak for me. I absolutely 100% seek out those characteristics in everyone. Sexual partners. Friends. Even employers. They are just good characteristics to nurture in yourself and those around you. If you only seek them in one gender that is perfectly ok - but let us not extrapolate that to a generalization.

Undividual · 17-01-2019 2:23pm

seamus wrote: »

That's because there is no problem.

Just a group of people whose entire sense of identity is based on "manliness" and who foam at the mouth whenever anyone would dare to question whether traditional notions of manliness such as "boys will be boys" are actually a reasonable way to raise children who can be functional members of society that treat everyone else with respect.

Realistically the people who get worked up about this so-called "attack on men" are only one step removed from the same psychopath who kidnapped that 13 year old girl and kept her trapped for months.

Source or projection? Lacking credibility.

Tell me how · 17-01-2019 2:23pm

conorhal wrote: »

According to Psychology Today even feminists can't stand 'woke men'....

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/women-who-stray/201812/feminists-think-sexist-men-are-sexier-woke-men

What hope do you have when even feminists don't desire the change they're demanding!

Because in it's truest sense this is the meeting of two extremists.

Most women who are truly ultra feminists aren't such in my view and most men who claim vehemently to be 'woke' are equally misguided. In both cases, I think they have assumed the position to give them a particular raison d'être more so than a stringent belief that it is right.
In both cases I believe they are sexist.

However, some people accuse any one who advocates for women's right as being an ultra feminist (male or female) and I don't believe this is true either.

Grayson · 17-01-2019 2:27pm

conorhal wrote: »

Are you prone to bizzare hyperbole?

1) In the case of intersectional feminism, Yes (how can it be otherwise with an ideology that determines what your rights or entitlements are based solely on your genitalia or skin colour and where that places you in a grevience hierarchy?)
2) No
3) I don't think many leftists or liberals, given the rather nasty authoritarian streak that they've displayed lately, seem to understand what those terms mean either frankly.

I don't think you know what intersectional feminism is.

Intersectionality is simply a way of saying that things overlap. So a black woman may face discrimination because she's black and separately because she's a woman. A poor white woman may face difficulties both because of poverty and because of discrimination based on her gender. A white working class man won't face the difficulties based on gender that a woman would but at the same time they will face difficulties because of their background.

It's a way of identifying that discrimination isn't a simple yes no idea. And since intersectional feminism is about approaching all the difficulties faced, it's going to benefit men too. Because when you attempt to end the discrimination a black woman faces, it will help end the discrimination black men face. If you want to lessen the disadvantages that a poor woman faces, it helps poor men too.

lbc2019 · 17-01-2019 2:27pm

David Pocock

Muckka · 17-01-2019 2:31pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Chuck Norris is so 80s.

Now it's Chris Hemsworth, Hugh Jackman, Ryan Gosling, Ryan Reynolds.

I don't want you all to be anything.

I'm simply suggesting a having a dialogue about masculinity is not a bad thing.

There's no dialogue.
Masculinity is a personal thing.

Some of us men have a lot more testosterone then other men.

It doesn't matter if we're gay or straight.

You've got gay guys I know who are 100% more masculine than the cuck culture society think's is endearing to our progress.
I often hang out with some gay guys we go hunting and fishing together, as I'm mgtow myself and a lot of my straight friends are married.
I hear a lot of funny stories from my gay friend's about their encounters with so called millennial married me on grindr, you know the types, sensitive, have feelings and gentle, mostly Liberals like yourself, but closet bisexuals.
But these lads are playing the four legged monster with the The Tom Sellek look alike down the road.

A lot of men nowadays won't even get their hands dirty unless of course they're changing nappies while his missus is getting banged by Brad down in the gym.
And he's cruising on grindr while she's entertaining Mark from accounts....

I myself am probably old fashioned, I curse, say **** you if I don't like you.
Maybe a pig in some people's eyes, but fck em.

I laugh at racial joke's, I laugh at gay joke's, I have a sense of humour.

I'm laughing at the joke and not at the subject matter.

joe40 · 17-01-2019 2:34pm

Muckka wrote: »

There's no dialogue.
Masculinity is a personal thing.

Some of us men have a lot more testosterone then other men.

It doesn't matter if we're gay or straight.

You've got gay guys I know who are 100% more masculine than the cuck culture society think's is endearing to our progress.
I often hang out with some gay guys we go hunting and fishing together, as I'm mgtow myself and a lot of my straight friends are married.
I hear a lot of funny stories from my gay friend's about their encounters with so called millennial married me on grindr, you know the types, sensitive, have feelings and gentle, mostly Liberals like yourself, but closet bisexuals.
But these lads are playing the four legged monster with the The Tom Sellek look alike down the road.

A lot of men nowadays won't even get their hands dirty unless of course they're changing nappies while his missus is getting banged by Brad down in the gym.
And he's cruising on grindr while she's entertaining Mark from accounts....

I myself am probably old fashioned, I curse, say **** you if I don't like you.
Maybe a pig in some people's eyes, but fck em.

I laugh at racial joke's, I laugh at gay joke's, I have a sense of humour.

I'm laughing at the joke and not at the subject matter.

Probably for the best..

hatrickpatrick · 17-01-2019 2:34pm

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Hold on. Why does it have to be parody to be OK? What if people think the Gillette ad has a meaningful and true message? Are you willing to dictate what's PC gone mad and what's appropriate PC to protect your feelings?

You're missing the point - something like Inbetweeners is fictional. It's not literally telling people what to do or criticising anyone based on their demographic. The Gillette ad is instructional based on demographic and perceived demographic failures or shortcomings, and that's the problem.

Is this not kinda obvious?

As an analogy, if someone writes a fictional movie about BDSM - let's say Fifty Shades - would you not agree that this is a totally different thing to someone making an advertisement *telling* women "be more submissive in bed and let your bf spank you"?

Would you see the difference between a female politician writing a fictional erotica about a rape, because she has a fantasy along those lines, and a female politician actually standing up and saying "women, you should enjoy rape"?

Inbetweeners wasn't telling anyone that they "should" do this or that. It wasn't claiming to be real-life social commentary or advocacy either. There's obviously a massive difference between the two.

Undividual · 17-01-2019 2:36pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Why are we still talking about women in a thread about an ad aimed at men?

Seems like deflection.

Never said masculinity is toxic. I said there are aspects of it that are. Also said there are aspects of femininity that are toxic. Not sure what the hell else you want from me. I am not getting into a discussion of toxic femininity or feminism in a thread about perceptions of toxic masculinity.

Can you tell my why you think there are ads about toxic masculinity (which do not relate to the product at all) but none about feminine toxicity?

Wibbs · 17-01-2019 2:39pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

You obviously don't have much experience of the relationships between gay men and straight women if you don't realise that is exactly what happens.

Funny enough I have some. And it makes much sense as she'll at least be sure they're not trying to get the leg over and won't skew advice because of it. One woman friend in particular goes to her Gay male mates for just such advice. They're generally very supportive and their general advice is good, the specific advice on the other hand is vague to woeful(actually one lad is pretty sensible and cuts through the BS). A tiny sample size to be fair. Though the usual "just be yourself" stuff figures highly. A common if piss poor useless piece of advice that to be fair comes from both genders and sexualities.

Grayson wrote:

It's a way of identifying that discrimination isn't a simple yes no idea. And since intersectional feminism is about approaching all the difficulties faced, it's going to benefit men too. Because when you attempt to end the discrimination a black woman faces, it will help end the discrimination black men face. If you want to lessen the disadvantages that a poor woman faces, it helps poor men too.

And yet the vast bulk of mainstream feminism concerns itself almost exclusively with the grievances real and imagined of White, middle class, college educated young women. The intersectional stuff tends to be much more the remit of college campuses and tumblr.

Mrsmum · 17-01-2019 2:41pm

conorhal wrote: »

According to Psychology Today even feminists can't stand 'woke men'....

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/women-who-stray/201812/feminists-think-sexist-men-are-sexier-woke-men

What hope do you have when even feminists don't desire the change they're demanding!

Could be like loving high heels but finding them hell to be in all the time.

Muckka · 17-01-2019 2:41pm

joe40 wrote: »

Probably for the best..

Exactly because I just don't want to be in a relationship and I have a great time, fishing, hunting, hillwalking etc

If a Man put's pussy in front of himself, he's seriously fcked up.

I see you identify with me, thanks

Undividual · 17-01-2019 2:42pm

Since seeing the ad, I've decided to stop my New Year's resolution of following attractive women down the street.

I might eat less barbecued food too, I don't want to end up looking like an extra from a toxic masculinity ad.

Muckka · 17-01-2019 2:45pm

Undividual wrote: »

Since seeing the ad, I've decided to stop my New Year's resolution of following attractive women down the street.

I might eat less barbecued food too, I don't want to end up looking like an extra from a toxic masculinity ad.

It's ok you're probably too old, as Gillette seem to be supportive of child labour.
Using kid's to push their agenda, shame on Gillette

Zorya · 17-01-2019 2:46pm

To be honest while I like a man who can do a bit of cooking and will clean the loo before I lose the head entirely I am not that fond of the idea of a male regularly in a apron, being too fastidious about the children's antics. I do most of the cleaning and cooking but then again he does by far the most of the compost-heap turning, coal-bucket carrying and unblocking the septic tank (although I have done that, just as he has made bread).

There is something about the domesticated male that is not at all attractive. A finicky or over-particular man is a turn off. I think some of the socialising of boys that is going on in some places is not a good idea, such as I have heard of in some trends in Scandinavia that seem to aim to tame the maleness.

It doesn't seem like a good idea overall. It won't save society from the tiny percentage of men who are rapists or marauders, because they will exist anyways. But it might impede society in other ways.

For example, if men were not tough-minded and tough-bodied enough to endure the jobs they now occupy at more than 90% as workers - electricians, construction, plumbers, carpenters, machinists, fitters, driving trucks, sewage maintenance, car repairs, fire fighters, crane operators, glaziers, mining, security, steel workers, oil platform workers, forestry, marine work, etc - we would all be fairly screwed.

For most of those jobs you need to be able to endure harsh conditions, which requires a certain amount of perhaps coarseness in order to cheerfully cope.

Plus anyway, I don't know how our betters imagine they can socially engineer testosterone. It's there for better and for worse.

conorhal · 17-01-2019 2:50pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Because in it's truest sense this is the meeting of two extremists.

Most women who are truly ultra feminists aren't such in my view and most men who claim vehemently to be 'woke' are equally misguided. In both cases, I think they have assumed the position to give them a particular raison d'être more so than a stringent belief that it is right.
In both cases I believe they are sexist.

However, some people accuse any one who advocates for women's right as being an ultra feminist (male or female) and I don't believe this is true either.

Given the hillarious rate that 'Woke blokes' describing themselves as 'male-feminist allies' are getting #metoo'd, I'd say their raison d'être is the appearance of 'agreeable and harmless fwend', while they try to weasel their way into some poor girls panties.

Boys if you wan't to walk up to a girl at a party and talk to her (respectfully), do so, and tell your 'woke' buddy trying to cock block you to piss off!

Girl's if a guy chooses to describe himself on social media as a 'male feminist ally', treat him with all the caution you would a guy in a pannel van offering you lift.

Muckka · 17-01-2019 2:51pm

Zorya wrote: »

To be honest while I like a man who can do a bit of cooking and will clean the loo before I lose the head entirely I am not that fond of the idea of a male regularly in a apron, being too fastidious about the children's antics. I do most of the cleaning and cooking but then again he does by far the most of the compost-heap turning, coal-bucket carrying and unblocking the septic tank (although I have done that, just as he has made bread).

There is something about the domesticated male that is not at all attractive. A finicky or over-particular man is a turn off. I think some of the socialising of boys that is going on in some places is not a good idea, such as I have heard of in some trends in Scandinavia that seem to aim to tame the maleness.

It doesn't seem like a good idea overall. It won't save society from the tiny percentage of men who are rapists or marauders, because they will exist anyways. But it might impede society in other ways.

For example, if men were not tough-minded and tough-bodied enough to endure the jobs they now occupy at more than 90% as workers - electricians, construction, plumbers, carpenters, machinists, fitters, driving trucks, sewage maintenance, car repairs, fire fighters, crane operators, glaziers, mining, security, steel workers, oil platform workers, forestry, marine work, etc - we would all be fairly screwed.

For most of those jobs you need to be able to endure harsh conditions, which requires a certain amount of perhaps coarseness in order to cheerfully cope.

Plus anyway, I don't know how our betters imagine they can socially engineer testosterone. It's there for better and for worse.

There's a woman of the highest order.
I'm sure yourself and your man are happily married.

You're what I would call a unicorn as today it's damm hard to find a woman who appreciates the difference between the sexes.

Tell me how · 17-01-2019 2:54pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

You're missing the point - something like Inbetweeners is fictional. It's not literally telling people what to do or criticising anyone based on their demographic. The Gillette ad is instructional based on demographic and perceived demographic failures or shortcomings, and that's the problem.

All ads are instructional. That is their purpose. Whether it is to instruct you to buy something or to instruct the audience to discuss the company/product. This ad is focused on the latter.

Many many many women have spoken about their experience with men and how it makes them uncomfortable. Some men have had that experience with women but it seems to be happen to significantly more women, significantly more of the time.

The ad shows scenarios which we are all familiar with witnessing (if not every day) and it suggests not that we are all guilty of it but that we do not accept it as being acceptable.

Why is that a bad thing?

This ad is about respect and the influence our behaviour has on young boys.
It's not rocket science.

Zorya · 17-01-2019 2:55pm

Muckka wrote: »

There's a woman of the highest order.
I'm sure yourself and your man are happily married.

You're what I would call a unicorn as today it's damm hard to find a woman who appreciates the difference between the sexes.

Well now, thanks, but I might just be a bit too fond of giving back cheek for your liking :P

17-01-2019 2:59pm

Zorya wrote: »

There is something about the domesticated male that is not at all attractive.

For me I would say the same about women - but to the point I would add the word _overly_ to domesticated. I think I find it unattractive when someone focuses too much on one aspect of their entire being to the expense of any other. And if a person - you say male - is overly domesticated I would find that an unattractive blemish.

For me I am attracted to people who explore their entire being and invest in a diversity of as much as possible. I am the cook in my house. The girlfriends can not cook an over pizza or an omellette even without ruining it and or the kitchen too. But I love cooking. A lot. But it is only one aspect of my being and it does not take away from any other aspect I explore.

I interact with my kids the same way. I have one boy and one girl so far and another kid on the way. I have - to use your phrase - "made bread" and many other things with both of them. I have also wrestled in a big pit of mud with both of them in the garden too. I teach both of them to wire plugs and perform maintenance on cars. I have taught both of them many self defence moves including an reverse handed eye gouging push move that you can use when grabbed. And recently a few times my 8 year old girl has been firing rifles with me and hunting meat.

As for "finicky or over-particular" again I think that would be off putting in any gender. Even the word finicky gives me a revulsion shiver for some reason.

Muckka wrote: »

it's damm hard to find a woman who appreciates the difference between the sexes.

I find a lot of men and women who appreciate the differences between the sexes. I am a man that appreciates them too. A lot. Maybe even too much sometimes

I think for me I am just obsessive about which differences actually are differences - rather than ones we think are there or think should be there. Sometimes where that line lies is very blurry. But most times when people tell me some manly or feminine trait I think "but that trait would be good in _anyone_".

On a barely related comical note my Firefox spell checker keeps replacing feminine with Feminise. Which a lot of the people suggesting we are just trying to dilute or remove manliness will likely find ironic or telling

Zorya · 17-01-2019 2:59pm

I think one of the biggest problems is the ''blank slate'' theory that is at the root of certain ideologies - that humans can be shaped by social policy. This is false theory. Humans can be shaped but at a great cost, as history repeatedly tells us.

Gillette | Toxic masculinity advert.

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