Responsibility for maintaining drain under main road?

thewiseowl12 · 25-04-2019 8:27am #1

Grateful for any experience in the following:

We have begun reclaiming land that hasn't been properly maintained since the 60's - the last time field drains were cleared out etc.

The field drains lead to a drain going under a national N road. This under road drain is nearly fully silted up with soil and mud, and water only passes through it when the field drains are nearly full. The other side of the road is a field we also own where the drain under the road ultimately leads to a stream that would take away the excess water.

Who is in charge of maintaining this under road drain? Is it the council, the NRA or ourselves? It looks extremely old, built from flagstone and probably dates to the time of the road development 100ish years ago?

Thanks

25-04-2019 8:38am

thewiseowl12 wrote: »

Grateful for any experience in the following:

We have begun reclaiming land that hasn't been properly maintained since the 60's - the last time field drains were cleared out etc.

The field drains lead to a drain going under a national N road. This under road drain is nearly fully silted up with soil and mud, and water only passes through it when the field drains are nearly full. The other side of the road is a field we also own where the drain under the road ultimately leads to a stream that would take away the excess water.

Who is in charge of maintaining this under road drain? Is it the council, the NRA or ourselves? It looks extremely old, built from flagstone and probably dates to the time of the road development 100ish years ago?

Thanks

Unless there is surface water on road as a result unlikely council motivated to maintain. Since it’s flagstone it should be replaced with a modern pipe. Get in touch with area road engineer is your best bet.

thewiseowl12 · 25-04-2019 8:57am

Thanks for that - the ideal is that we wouldn't incur any expense in remediating the issue!

I guess its unlikely that will be the case.

Anto_Meath · 25-04-2019 9:08am

Would you be able to pull a something through the drain under the road that would drag the silt out to the field on the far side and then be able to clear it out.
We done it with a piped drain under a narrow road a few years back. Can see the council doing anything for you if it isn't causing them a problem. More than likely they will put it back to you and make you get a road opening license and a bond to undertake any work.

thewiseowl12 · 25-04-2019 9:17am

Thanks for that - it could probably be cleaned out by hand as its just wide enough for someone to pass through, maybe 3 foot x 3 foot.

However cleaning two foot of silt from under a national road by hand for a length of 12 meters is not the most appealing

K.G. · 25-04-2019 9:18am

go away and sort it out yourself if you can at all and say nothing to nobody.the council would bog you down in procedure and only involve them if there is no alternative.get a drain cleaner in to look at it.

patsy_mccabe · 25-04-2019 9:23am

Only last week, we cleared a drain like this. It was going under a single lane private road shared by a few neighbours. First push tru sewage rods. Tie a chain with a shackle across the rubber flange at the end (the one used for sewage). Pull the chain tru then.
We used a heavy steel ring about 2 feet in diameter, 3" thick. We tied a rope then fed from the other side of the road so that we could pull the weight back and forth.
It worked very well and we pulled it 6 times in total. Good luck with the council. I'm still waiting 6 months to get 2 small trees cut on the edge of a motorway.

Lime Tree Farm · 25-04-2019 9:41am

To see the list of water courses and bridges maintained by the OPW. Google “OPW drainage maps”, click on orthophotos to view satellite images.

We managed to free a drain under a bridge on an 8 ft public road (not on the OPW list), using chimney rods and brush.

_Brian · 25-04-2019 9:43am

It’s a crappy position.

If you ask they won’t do anything to help you.

If you do it yourself and god forbid the culvert collapses you in the shiit big time.

One here not looking great as the end has started to give way, I’d definitely not recommend going into it.

the_pen_turner · 25-04-2019 9:50am

I think patsy is right.

I would make some kind of small land leveller out of an rsj with some teeth. Then pull it over and back.

Either that or some kind of huge pump or large power washer that could wash it out.

Wildly Boaring · 25-04-2019 9:54am

1. It will not be replaced solely on basis of it being flags. 1000s of these about.

2. It is the council's responsibility. The council operate N roads for TII and get annual payments from them.

3. They wont touch it if it's not causing them issue. They won't get the finding from anywhere.

4. To man above with 2 trees adjacent motorway. All motorways managed by private companies for TII at this stage. Maintenance was taken off the councils. Best contacting TII with photos and reasons why they are a risk.

So yeah you may be best just getting at it yourself. But sounds like very serious undertaking. Huge volume. 10m3 or so. 20 tonne.

Does it need to be desilted or can you drain to the top of current silt?

Water and water course find their natural level. If this hasn't been touched in 30 years it's likely that this is the natural water course. So if you clean it it'll go back over a few years.

It's obviously working away fine at this level of silt. May drop some when you add more water via drainage.

Bass Reeves · 25-04-2019 10:34am

I had this issue about 12-24 years ago. Exactly similar land on both sides of road. Old stone Culvert had collapsed and was about 6' under road. Road engineer was a ba!!ox and noted for being so.When I got no satisfaction from council I went to the ombudsman for public service. They ruled in my favour but engineer tried still not to do it. They were finally instructed to do it. Did a great job too.

thewiseowl12 · 25-04-2019 11:22am

3. They wont touch it if it's not causing them issue. They won't get the finding from anywhere.

I imagine that this is the case - not bothering the council and its probably 4-5ft below road level. It just means the fields that side of the road are waterlogged.

Water and water course find their natural level. If this hasn't been touched in 30 years it's likely that this is the natural water course. So if you clean it it'll go back over a few years.

It's obviously working away fine at this level of silt. May drop some when you add more water via drainage.

The culvert also takes the surface water drains from the gardens of a line of houses as well as the field drains and clearly bits of muck and debris have washed in over time. The water has found its level in that the field is waterlogged!

Thanks

Donald Trump · 25-04-2019 12:23pm

I'm sure there is some kind of auger that exists that would do this for you (or the council)

I mean there are directional drillers etc. that would bore a drain for you across a road so I don't see why they wouldn't have some kind of drill/auger that would pull the crap out of it for you in a few minutes. Would still cost a bit but at least it would be done.

Or do Patsy's suggestion to loosen it up and then fire a few loads of water through it using a tanker and hose

Buford T. Justice XIX · 25-04-2019 1:24pm

Wildly Boaring wrote: »

1. It will not be replaced solely on basis of it being flags. 1000s of these about.

2. It is the council's responsibility. The council operate N roads for TII and get annual payments from them.

3. They wont touch it if it's not causing them issue. They won't get the finding from anywhere.

4. To man above with 2 trees adjacent motorway. All motorways managed by private companies for TII at this stage. Maintenance was taken off the councils. Best contacting TII with photos and reasons why they are a risk.

So yeah you may be best just getting at it yourself. But sounds like very serious undertaking. Huge volume. 10m3 or so. 20 tonne.

Does it need to be desilted or can you drain to the top of current silt?

Water and water course find their natural level. If this hasn't been touched in 30 years it's likely that this is the natural water course. So if you clean it it'll go back over a few years.

It's obviously working away fine at this level of silt. May drop some when you add more water via drainage.

Drains need regular maintenance, similar to what is being proposed for to relieve some of the regular Shannon flooding recently.

The fact that the under road drain is blocked is preventing the water from finding its natural level and is raising the watertable from its catchment area. Once the drain is cleared, the watertable will drop to the lowest level that the drain can take water.

OP, council failing, the suggestion of a vacuum tank full of water and the suction hose into the drain should clear out most to either side and can be taken out with a digger again. Once it's clear, the natural flow of water in winter should keep it free?

Muckit · 25-04-2019 1:29pm

thewiseowl12 wrote: »

Thanks for that - it could probably be cleaned out by hand as its just wide enough for someone to pass through, maybe 3 foot x 3 foot.

However cleaning two foot of silt from under a national road by hand for a length of 12 meters is not the most appealing

Be the making of you

patsy_mccabe · 25-04-2019 1:42pm

As for the 2 trees - it was TII I contacted, complete with e-mail and photos. Even GPS coordinates. I'm still waiting. They were working recently on the other side of the road working and I asked them to cut them and they told me to e-mail the boss.

The drain we worked on by the way, was hand built a long time ago. Maybe only 2 feet wide.

Markcheese · 25-04-2019 1:51pm

Donald Trump wrote: »

I'm sure there is some kind of auger that exists that would do this for you (or the council)

I mean there are directional drillers etc. that would bore a drain for you across a road so I don't see why they wouldn't have some kind of drill/auger that would pull the crap out of it for you in a few minutes. Would still cost a bit but at least it would be done.

Or do Patsy's suggestion to loosen it up and then fire a few loads of water through it using a tanker and hose

I'd be very slow to blast it with loads of water, you could well under mine the stone, and collapse the whole thing....
Try digging out what you can reach easily, and then sewer rods, there's a Cork screw attachment, and another spade type...

https://www.raygrahams.com/products/129610-4-sewer-scraper-for-sewer-rods.aspx?pv=49519&currency=eur&gclid=CjwKCAjwtYXmBRAOEiwAYsyl3FsmZ3ZA6KrYeQ2l3_cdfNZjsWACYIafG5f5X5K6znMD9o11ivrWpxoCVRwQAvD_BwE,

It would take a while, but it'd be better than trying to go in,

Wildly Boaring · 25-04-2019 1:52pm

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

As for the 2 trees - it was TII I contacted, complete with e-mail and photos. Even GPS coordinates. I'm still waiting. They were working recently on the other side of the road working and I asked them to cut them and they told me to e-mail the boss.

The drain we worked on by the way, was hand built a long time ago. Maybe only 2 feet wide.

As with the drain. If it's not bothering the TII they'll be slow to act. In 2014 storm several trees took out fencing. Still slow to pay the maintenance crowds to sort out.

the_pen_turner · 25-04-2019 1:54pm

Markcheese wrote: »

I'd be very slow to blast it with loads of water, you could well under mine the stone, and collapse the whole thing....
Try digging out what you can reach easily, and then sewer rods, there's a Cork screw attachment, and another spade type...

https://www.raygrahams.com/products/129610-4-sewer-scraper-for-sewer-rods.aspx?pv=49519&currency=eur&gclid=CjwKCAjwtYXmBRAOEiwAYsyl3FsmZ3ZA6KrYeQ2l3_cdfNZjsWACYIafG5f5X5K6znMD9o11ivrWpxoCVRwQAvD_BwE,

It would take a while, but it'd be better than trying to go in,

You would be the rest of your lifetime trying to unblock it with one of those.

893bet · 25-04-2019 4:46pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

You would be the rest of your lifetime trying to unblock it with one of those.

How many years did it take Andy Dufrane to escape shawshank?

Anto_Meath · 26-04-2019 9:25am

As far as I can recall Red said he spent the best part of 20 years before Andy crawled to freedom through five hundred yards of ****-smelling foulness I can't even imagine- or maybe I just don't want to. Five hundred yards... that's the length of five football fields; just shy of half a mile. Andy Dufresne, who crawled through a river of **** and came out clean on the other side.

TheBoyConor · 26-04-2019 9:36am

Don't dream of going into the culvert. Could be methane from decomposing material in there, or a lack of oxygen or whatever. If it is old flags stones then if you go digging at it there is also the chance that some of it could fall in in top of you. It would be foolish to take the risk of going in there.

Hire a drain cleaning company to come and go at it with a jet vac lorry.

thewiseowl12 · 26-04-2019 9:49am

Thanks for that.

Any idea of the rough cost of a jet Vac lorry call out?

One concern I would have is that the culvert could be 200 years old. It looks like it has lime mortar or similar binding the flags and stone together which mighn't be ablt to take those pressures.

patsy_mccabe · 26-04-2019 10:03am

This is the culvert we cleaned and the weight we used. We didn't want to go any deeper as we thought we might undermine the side walls. A credit to whoever built it day one, maybe over 100 years ago as it still stands perfect with no cement used. To look into it, it looks like the work of a stonemason.

wrangler · 26-04-2019 10:54am

thewiseowl12 wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Any idea of the rough cost of a jet Vac lorry call out?

One concern I would have is that the culvert could be 200 years old. It looks like it has lime mortar or similar binding the flags and stone together which mighn't be ablt to take those pressures.

You could get something like this for your power washer.
https://www.ebay.ie/itm/121797460545?ul_noapp=true

local tool hire would probably have a jetter for hire too

Bog Man 1 · 26-04-2019 8:43pm

thewiseowl12 wrote: »

Thanks for that.

Any idea of the rough cost of a jet Vac lorry call out?

One concern I would have is that the culvert could be 200 years old. It looks like it has lime mortar or similar binding the flags and stone together which mighn't be ablt to take those pressures.

We jetted a few large culverts with a jetter lorry . It was about €150 minimum for callout , We try and have a few jobs for him when he calls as Chimney rods are hard work .
The joke at home is if we wave at him when he is passing on the road it is €150 .

Bass Reeves · 26-04-2019 11:18pm

Hassle council first put the responsibility and liability on them. If they tell you it is up to you they will have the liability for any issues. I bet if you hassle them enough to and go to ombudsman they will clean it out. It will take 6 months though

patsy_mccabe · 26-04-2019 11:34pm

Lads, it literally took us 10mins to clean ours.

cjpm · 27-04-2019 10:42am

Your problem could be the drain on the far side of the road. If possible lower this so that there is a good drop from the culvert into it. The faster you can get water flowing out of the culvert the better, more silt and mud will be carried out by the flowing water naturally, it may start to clear itself if you could get enough of a fall.

Aravo · 27-04-2019 12:30pm

Is the drain taking any water from the road. If so, the council may assist. Otherwise, your likely on your own.

Bass Reeves · 27-04-2019 1:13pm

Aravo wrote: »

Is the drain taking any water from the road. If so, the council may assist. Otherwise, your likely on your own.

My drain was taking no water from the road. Like I said it took over six months. I wrote to council, rang and no answer. Engineer tried to fob me off. Told me it was not a Council issue as it did not effect road. He measured the water height at both sides of road. He refused to do anything about it. I contacted the ombudsman for the public service. I sent off photo copies of all correspondence and the fact the council engineer did not reply to any correspondence( he refused to even reply to any letter send or to acknowledge that it was not there issue in writing). They contacted the council and ruled that it was the council job to keep the drain open as it had collapsed. They gave them 8 weeks to complete the job.

As it was December and both sides of road were flooded I did not pursue until late February. I rang the Road engineers direct manager. He was snotty giving out about me contacting the ombudsman. I told him he had 2 weeks or I email them again which I did when it was not done. TBH the lady in the ombudsman office was flabbergasted it was not completed. She assured me it would be done in 2 weeks which it was.

Side story heard after that the ordinary workers were delighted. They had heard what was going on and knew the said engineer was a maggot. It was one of the few times he was put back in his box.

Know the process. It's even easier now with emails. Keep all your mails on a folder. Resort to snail mail and registered letters for formal recording to higher management. I used to have to ring this lad at his landline but easier to get mobile numbers now. If he is not answering his mobile use another mobile to contact wife's, husband's mother's father's , friends or children's. They will try to fob you off. At the end of the day if they are not rep!ying send a mail stating because of there non reply you assume it is ok for you to carry out the work and any damages to the road are there problem. Contact the senior County engineer by email or telephone.
It was the best satisfaction I evet got . I even remember talking to the engineer direct manager and indicating that I wanted the depth of the new drain at the bottom of the old culvert. He spewed that they would decide what was the depth. I said grand if it was wrong they could do it again. The pipe was put in about 3-5'' below the old culvert depth.

It dead handy with mobile phones camera's to take photos and send them on email. Remember to always be civil and not get angry

Responsibility for maintaining drain under main road?

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