City council rejects Johnny Ronan’s Dublin skyscraper -now approved.

Marcusm · 07-04-2019 9:43pm

oceanman wrote: »

dose this mean we will be having skyscrapers popping up all over Dublin city now?

It’s hard to see it as a skyscraper in a modern context. For example the Royal Liver Building in Liverpool is 2m higher and was completed in 1911.

I’m not excited by the design for the location. However, it is a transport hub and if we want a modal shift from car to public transport, that’s the best location for high capacity buildings. By contrast, the north and south Docklands are not particularly well served by public transport to the door. Consequently, these buildings still have large expanses of car parks.

madbeanman · 08-04-2019 6:10pm

So I am all for progress but (don’t get angry after these words, just listen) it’s a weird location. I understand that it is “well” service by public transport but it’s also super close to O’Connell Sreet and Westmoreland Street and just looks out of place. Liberty Hall is the same deal (besides being ugly as hell).

I think if you want to pack them tall and tight, look to the Point and create an SDZ like at Heuston.

I’m not saying it’s a travesty, I’m not saying it’s a shameful disgrace that ruins the traditional architecture of Dublin, I’m just saying it will look......odd and out of place.

kravmaga · 09-04-2019 6:50pm

oceanman wrote: »

dose this mean we will be having skyscrapers popping up all over Dublin city now?

Its hardly a skyscraper, its only 22 stories in height.

madbeanman · 09-04-2019 8:40pm

kravmaga wrote: »

Its hardly a skyscraper, its only 22 stories in height.

The question of whether it’s a skyscraper or not is a completely moot point. Because they have skyscrapers in Shinjuku Tokyo should we have them here?

It’s a 22 storey building in one of the lowest-rise capitals in Europe. That might as well be a skyscraper.

But like I said before, I’m all for higher rise. Dublin is experiencing scary shortages in housing and office space. And we should stop suburban sprawl by building up. But it’s all about where we build up and for the spot it is in this building will stick out like a sore thumb.

Stick it down near the port and stick an extra ten stories on it if ya want. (But also make it accessible by public transport)

JDD · 09-04-2019 9:42pm

You’d prefer if they built higher closer to the Point, and then gradually got lower towards the Custom House, then this wouldn’t look too out of place. But someone’s got to start somewhere.

That being said, I’d block every one of Johnny Ronan’s proposals, however good, because he’s a prick. So this both pleases and annoys me.

ongarboy · 10-04-2019 10:54am

I guess the thread title can be changed now!!

I'm glad it got approved but I also think a docklands location would have been better?

kravmaga · 11-04-2019 5:40pm

madbeanman wrote: »

The question of whether it’s a skyscraper or not is a completely moot point. Because they have skyscrapers in Shinjuku Tokyo should we have them here?

It’s a 22 storey building in one of the lowest-rise capitals in Europe. That might as well be a skyscraper.

But like I said before, I’m all for higher rise. Dublin is experiencing scary shortages in housing and office space. And we should stop suburban sprawl by building up. But it’s all about where we build up and for the spot it is in this building will stick out like a sore thumb.

Stick it down near the port and stick an extra ten stories on it if ya want. (But also make it accessible by public transport)

eh thanks for all that but Im from Dublin originally so know all of the above already, im pretty well travelled also Asia, USA, Central America and have lived in London also so Im familiar with what a proper skyscraper is.

madbeanman · 11-04-2019 11:31pm

kravmaga wrote: »

eh thanks for all that but Im from Dublin originally so know all of the above already, im pretty well travelled also Asia, USA, Central America and have lived in London also so Im familiar with what a proper skyscraper is.

These are all non-sequiters. I’m not sure what I said but it appears I have offended you. Sorry about that.

Anyways, there was an article about this in the Irish Times. I feel like the writer was way too over dramatic about it but he was super anti the development

cgcsb · 12-04-2019 2:04pm

Interesting 30 story apartment tower proposed for Belfast of all places:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/proposed-30storey-apartment-block-in-sailortown-would-be-the-tallest-in-northern-ireland-38007303.html

Odds are this may never happen, given that Belfast's Obel residential tower couldn't flog the units. But if it did then there's no reason there couldn't many similar buildings in Dublin. Property and land value in NI is kept artificially low by the government for historic reason, so if a tower of this size can sell up there, there should be no problems in Dublin.

madbeanman · 12-04-2019 7:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Interesting 30 story apartment tower proposed for Belfast of all places:

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/proposed-30storey-apartment-block-in-sailortown-would-be-the-tallest-in-northern-ireland-38007303.html

Odds are this may never happen, given that Belfast's Obel residential tower couldn't flog the units. But if it did then there's no reason there couldn't many similar buildings in Dublin. Property and land value in NI is kept artificially low by the government for historic reason, so if a tower of this size can sell up there, there should be no problems in Dublin.

I don’t think anyone could, or even is, doubting the demand that there is for office/residential space.

The debate is over the historic policies favouring low rise and preservation of historical architecture for whatever reason.

I mean the Elysian in Cork is not that much smaller than the Capital Dock, which is currently Dublin’s tallest building, so the size of the city has little if anything to do with the viability of a particular tower.

kravmaga · 13-04-2019 9:42pm

madbeanman wrote: »

These are all non-sequiters. I’m not sure what I said but it appears I have offended you. Sorry about that.

Anyways, there was an article about this in the Irish Times. I feel like the writer was way too over dramatic about it but he was super anti the development

Yeah whatever

kravmaga · 14-04-2019 7:33pm

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-collins-why-cant-the-skyline-match-a-vibrant-city-38012797.html

strandroad · 14-04-2019 8:17pm

kravmaga wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-collins-why-cant-the-skyline-match-a-vibrant-city-38012797.html

In fairness this visualisation looks horrendous. I'm all for high density but it means filling in the gaps and creating balanced dense districts nor raising such random monstrosities in a wasteland...

Cienciano · 15-04-2019 10:29am

strandroad wrote: »

In fairness this visualisation looks horrendous. I'm all for high density but it means filling in the gaps and creating balanced dense districts nor raising such random monstrosities in a wasteland...

Whoever designed them must have returned from a trip from UAE. The one granted permission is the other end of the scale, a glass box.

FreudianSlippers · 15-04-2019 4:30pm

strandroad wrote: »

In fairness this visualisation looks horrendous. I'm all for high density but it means filling in the gaps and creating balanced dense districts nor raising such random monstrosities in a wasteland...

That visualisation also doesn't include the new Hawkins House and Apollo House which will certainly reduce the visual impact of this looking out of place to an extent.

Cienciano wrote: »

Whoever designed them must have returned from a trip from UAE. The one granted permission is the other end of the scale, a glass box.

As someone on SSC helpfully pointed out "This is 88 metres. The 70th tallest building in Dubai is 200 metres"

cgcsb · 15-04-2019 5:23pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That visualisation also doesn't include the new Hawkins House and Apollo House which will certainly reduce the visual impact of this looking out of place to an extent.

As someone on SSC helpfully pointed out "This is 88 metres. The 70th tallest building in Dubai is 200 metres"

That being said 50 years ago Dubai's population was about 50,000 and in 50 years it's population will probably be back down to 50,000 when Europe and China loose interest in imported oil. Dubai is a flash in the pan, still there are cities with more longevity to look to, much closer to home.

madbeanman · 15-04-2019 6:24pm

kravmaga wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-collins-why-cant-the-skyline-match-a-vibrant-city-38012797.html

This article is super strange. I think the author might be suffering from subliminal post-colonial syndrome.

Dublin shouldn’t build high rise because Dubai does. I couldn’t care less what Dubai does. It has more double Dublin’s metropolitan population and has evolved completely differently historically. I am not interested in having a measuring contest with any other city. I don’t care what London is doing or Paris is doing. We should absolutely be open to learning from these cities but Dublin is much smaller than all of them.

I want Dublin to embrace high rise because there is an insane housing crisis. People spending 60% of their income on rent is lunacy.

I want Dublin to have high rise for more comfortable work spaces.

I want Dublin (and other Irish cities) to have high rise to combat crazy levels of urban sprawl. Our transport systems can’t cope with it.

Also, why do all modern towers need to be soulless glass boxes. Why can’t a tower be Celtic inspired or contain something less globalistic?

Cienciano · 16-04-2019 10:24am

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

As someone on SSC helpfully pointed out "This is 88 metres. The 70th tallest building in Dubai is 200 metres"

I was replying to a post about this:
https://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/liam-collins-why-cant-the-skyline-match-a-vibrant-city-38012797.html

Not the height, the ridiculous style.

cgcsb · 16-04-2019 10:53am

All the whingers from Irish Georgian Society and An Taisce writing letters to their belved anti-Irish Times of late. Entertaining if nothing else.

Marcusm · 16-04-2019 8:49pm

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That visualisation also doesn't include the new Hawkins House and Apollo House which will certainly reduce the visual impact of this looking out of place to an extent.

As someone on SSC helpfully pointed out "This is 88 metres. The 70th tallest building in Dubai is 200 metres"

Excuse me; I pointed to a 100 year old building in Liverpool (not a high rise city) that’s taller! This is a not particularly pretty building but a marked improvement on adjacent buildings (Apollo & Hawkins as examples).

FreudianSlippers · 17-04-2019 8:34am

Marcusm wrote: »

Excuse me; I pointed to a 100 year old building in Liverpool (not a high rise city) that’s taller! This is a not particularly pretty building but a marked improvement on adjacent buildings (Apollo & Hawkins as examples).

I obviously meant the new Apollo and Hawkins buildings, not the ones being demolished.

madbeanman · 18-04-2019 10:20pm

There was a debate on Seán O Rourke yesterday about this. The guy against the proposition came off like an awful pearl clutching nimby, god bless him.

Marcusm · 19-04-2019 12:02am

cgcsb wrote: »

That being said 50 years ago Dubai's population was about 50,000 and in 50 years it's population will probably be back down to 50,000 when Europe and China loose interest in imported oil. Dubai is a flash in the pan, still there are cities with more longevity to look to, much closer to home.

I have no like not to mind love for Dubai but it has no oil or gas worth speaking about and hasn’t had for 20 years or so. Accounts for 5% or so of GDP. Its economy is services and trade based.

cgcsb · 19-04-2019 4:11pm

Marcusm wrote: »

I have no like not to mind love for Dubai but it has no oil or gas worth speaking about and hasn’t had for 20 years or so. Accounts for 5% or so of GDP. Its economy is services and trade based.

The city of Dubai. The Country's economy is still circa 60% oil and gas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Arab_Emirates#Diversification

FreudianSlippers · 23-04-2019 9:53am

What's the point in talking about Dubai? This proposal is not a skyscraper, it's not anywhere near even a small building in Dubai and it's completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. There are plenty of other cities closer to home with better historic architecture mixed in with modern mid/high-rise including London.

madbeanman · 23-04-2019 6:47pm

Was there an estimated time for this project to be completed?

Marcusm · 23-04-2019 9:33pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The city of Dubai. The Country's economy is still circa 60% oil and gas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_Arab_Emirates#Diversification

Dubai is one of the Emirates as opposed to simply a city; it has a distinct legal system and its economy is generally regarded as separate from that of the other emirates and particularly Abu Dhabi which is rich with oil and gas. There are elements of cooperation but little on the economic side although Abu Dhabi did bail Dubai out during the financial crisis. They and their respective ruling families compete more than they cooperate.

madbeanman · 23-04-2019 9:56pm

Can someone rename this thread to simply “Dubai”?

madbeanman · 27-04-2019 5:52pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/tall-stories-most-dubliners-in-favour-of-bigger-buildings-1.3872955?mode=amp

JupiterKid · 27-04-2019 7:34pm

madbeanman wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/tall-stories-most-dubliners-in-favour-of-bigger-buildings-1.3872955?mode=amp

I’m personally in favour of well designed tall buildings in Dublin in appropriate locations such as Docklands - Dublin is too low density and sprawling and does not make good or efficient use of its existing urban footprint and transport corridors - but given that this “survey” was conducted by a property developer, and Johnny Ronan at that, I’d be very very sceptical as to its validity and the sample of respondents it attracted.

Of course developers are going to want to have public opinion on their side.

madbeanman · 27-04-2019 10:27pm

JupiterKid wrote: »

I’m personally in favour of well designed tall buildings in Dublin in appropriate locations such as Docklands - Dublin is too low density and sprawling and does not make good or efficient use of its existing urban footprint and transport corridors - but given that this “survey” was conducted by a property developer, and Johnny Ronan at that, I’d be very very sceptical as to its validity and the sample of respondents it attracted.

Of course developers are going to want to have public opinion on their side.

Super fair point. I didn't get to read the article myself because of the pay wall. I reach my limit on times articles for the week.

hmmm · 28-04-2019 9:26pm

If we're not going to build taller in the city centre, we'll end up having to build taller in the suburbs. It makes absolute sense to do it in the centre.

loyatemu · 28-04-2019 9:51pm

I was thinking of this thread when I was in the Hague last week:

those buildings are twice the height of anything planned for Dublin.

strandroad · 28-04-2019 11:16pm

loyatemu wrote: »

those buildings are twice the height of anything planned for Dublin.

They are clustered as a high rise area though, surrounded by consistent but lower high density, and that's how it should be. Not dotted randomly around.

hmmm · 29-04-2019 6:48pm

strandroad wrote: »

They are clustered as a high rise area though, surrounded by consistent but lower high density, and that's how it should be. Not dotted randomly around.

Unfortunately because of the all-or-nothing opposition to high-rise, we're now going to end up with dots. I agree with you that it would have been far preferable to cluster them, but this is what is necessary to break the logjam.

madbeanman · 29-04-2019 7:42pm

hmmm wrote: »

Unfortunately because of the all-or-nothing opposition to high-rise, we're now going to end up with dots. I agree with you that it would have been far preferable to cluster them, but this is what is necessary to break the logjam.

I disagree. The St. James Gate development may be a good area for proper high rise.

hmmm · 29-04-2019 10:44pm

madbeanman wrote: »

I disagree. The St. James Gate development may be a good area for proper high rise.

We're well past the point of throwing out ideas for future high rise areas. It's too late for this sort of advance planning.

There are going to be towers in the city centre, the docklands, and scattered all over the suburbs as a consequence of the governments removal of height caps. This is what years of blanket opposition have led to, and those responsible only have themselves to blame. We are going to have to suffer hodge-podge tall towers because we have a housing emergency which is going to take priority over aesthetic concerns.

madbeanman · 29-04-2019 11:36pm

hmmm wrote: »

We're well past the point of throwing out ideas for future high rise areas. It's too late for this sort of advance planning.

There are going to be towers in the city centre, the docklands, and scattered all over the suburbs as a consequence of the governments removal of height caps. This is what years of blanket opposition have led to, and those responsible only have themselves to blame. We are going to have to suffer hodge-podge tall towers because we have a housing emergency which is going to take priority over aesthetic concerns.

Are there though? Is the Government really doing anything like building residential towers in the city centre? Nah, you might get a couple of story high block but the higher developments are all office blocks

FreudianSlippers · 30-04-2019 9:05am

madbeanman wrote: »

Are there though? Is the Government really doing anything like building residential towers in the city centre? Nah, you might get a couple of story high block but the higher developments are all office blocks

Offices are most cost-effective at the moment; if developers see that they are getting taller buildings through planning they will start putting more through, including residential.

The Parkgate Street site is a great potential site for a 70m+ residential building with commercial at ground level.

wakka12 · 05-05-2019 10:07am

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/battle-for-the-dublin-skyline-are-you-ready-for-johnny-ronans-world-class-hanging-gardens-38079925.html

Johnny Ronan is doing it again! He has proposed plans for a 44 and 40 story towers in Dublin city block 9 on the north docks, just weeks after his proposal for Irelands tallest building passed through planning, looks absplutely fantastic and sincerely hope it is allowed. The tallest tower will be 3x times the height of liberty hall

cgcsb · 05-05-2019 10:19am

wakka12 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/battle-for-the-dublin-skyline-are-you-ready-for-johnny-ronans-world-class-hanging-gardens-38079925.html

Johnny Ronan is doing it again! He has proposed plans for a 44 and 40 story towers in Dublin city block 9 on the north docks, just weeks after his proposal for Irelands tallest building passed through planning, looks absplutely fantastic and sincerely hope it is allowed. The tallest tower will be 3x times the height of liberty hall

Looks fab. Fingers crossed. 1000 new homes including 100 new social homes in a docklands location. All the antinprogress psychopaths will raging that their fellow humans will have somewhere to live.

Hoboo · 05-05-2019 10:25am

cgcsb wrote: »

Looks fab. Fingers crossed. 1000 new homes including 100 new social homes in a docklands location. All the antinprogress psychopaths will raging that their fellow humans will have somewhere to live.

None of which will go on sale, all straight to rental at monopolised overinflated prices. More of the same bs.

Would love to see it built though, and more past it. That whole point depot area is ideal.

wakka12 · 05-05-2019 10:28am

Hoboo wrote: »

None of which will go on sale, all straight to rental at monopolised overinflated prices. More of the same bs.

Would love to see it built, but for individual buyers.

The more the market is flooded, the less chance they will get away with charging overpriced rent, because people will have more choice and not accept being robbed. But when there such a scarcity of housing like now, people will take anything they can get, and pay anything thats asked

Hoboo · 05-05-2019 10:35am

wakka12 wrote: »

The more the market is flooded, the less chance they will get away with charging overpriced rent, because people will have more choice and not accept being robbed. But when there such a scarcity of housing like now, people will take anything they can get, and pay anything thats asked

But the same few own the majority of the properties in the area, north and south, they control the market, not vice versa as.it should be. Landlords with 3000 apartments in Dublin City centre. That whole building will be kept for rental, like is being done in grand canal.

05-05-2019 11:36am

That looks fantastic. I can see the pigs flying in the background.

madbeanman · 05-05-2019 3:20pm

This to me seems better than the Tara Street Development. Like the Tara street development is right at the foot of the traditional city centre. This is fine because it’s more imbedded in the globalized soulless office district. That’s totally fine by me

Tell me how · 05-05-2019 11:16pm

wakka12 wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/battle-for-the-dublin-skyline-are-you-ready-for-johnny-ronans-world-class-hanging-gardens-38079925.html

Johnny Ronan is doing it again! He has proposed plans for a 44 and 40 story towers in Dublin city block 9 on the north docks, just weeks after his proposal for Irelands tallest building passed through planning, looks absplutely fantastic and sincerely hope it is allowed. The tallest tower will be 3x times the height of liberty hall

Looks fantastic?

44 Tower looks like it's falling over.

madbeanman · 06-05-2019 1:58am

Tell me how wrote: »

Looks fantastic?

44 Tower looks like it's falling over.

Sure it’s not necessarily much to look it but it is what it is, a soulless ugly tower. But hey, we’ve a crisis in residential and office space so why not build something entirely functional that caters to these needs

Zipppy · 06-05-2019 12:28pm

Fantastic proposal...build it and build more..
More homes = more home...No matter be they rental or for sale.
Wake up Dublin..

cgcsb · 06-05-2019 8:47pm

Absolutely pathetic comments from Labour on this.

City council rejects Johnny Ronan’s Dublin skyscraper -now approved.

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