NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

SkepticQuark · 26-04-2019 3:02pm

listermint wrote: »

I want Fibre Broadband as much as the next person.

But i cannot stand over the network being paid for out of my tax and then handed off lock stock to private enterprise. If that part is accurate then id rather not proceed with the current plan.

Its not good enough.

This has been the plan for years though, I don't know why people are suddenly bringing this up like it's a sudden thing. The ownership plan was decided on years ago.

turbbo · 26-04-2019 3:05pm

SkepticQuark wrote: »

This has been the plan for years though, I don't know why people are suddenly bringing this up like it's a sudden thing. The ownership plan was decided on years ago.

Nothing to see here it's just plain old political prittle prattle. If it gets done for 3 bill it'll be amazing - lets just sign it already.

RHJ · 26-04-2019 3:12pm

I'm lucky enough to have fibre where I am currently living and compared to a copper phone line it's fantastic, and the sooner fibre is rolled out across the country, the better

It will be interesting to see if it negatively affects the finances of RTE and Sky as potentially it could lead too more people ditching traditional television and going online only.

listermint · 26-04-2019 3:39pm

turbbo wrote: »

It's better spent on this than bailing out banks and city centre childrens hosp. IMHO

How ?

We have never had good experience in this country handing over infrastructure.

Not once!

We have public private entities such as the ESB. But that is technically all still owned by the state. And its very successful.

Handing over billion Euros worth of infrastructure is madness. And frankly its vital core infrastructure. This stuff is the roads of the future economic growth. It makes no sense.

turbbo · 26-04-2019 3:51pm

listermint wrote: »

How ?

We have never had good experience in this country handing over infrastructure.

Not once!

We have public private entities such as the ESB. But that is technically all still owned by the state. And its very successful.

Handing over billion Euros worth of infrastructure is madness. And frankly its vital core infrastructure. This stuff is the roads of the future economic growth. It makes no sense.

M50 toll bridge, NCT ........ way bigger than 3 billion thrown into the ether.
5 bill for NCH so far - I'm sure a few more bill before it's finished.
This NBP is a drop in the ocean.

ED E · 26-04-2019 3:52pm

listermint wrote: »

We have public private entities such as the ESB. But that is technically all still owned by the state. And its very successful.

We pay through the nose to keep the ESB staff happy though.

listermint · 26-04-2019 3:54pm

ED E wrote: »

We pay through the nose to keep the ESB staff happy though.

Pay what? The company pays for itself. Its self profit. Its a good example of something that works well.

listermint · 26-04-2019 3:55pm

turbbo wrote: »

M50 toll bridge, NCT ........ way bigger than 3 billion thrown into the ether.
5 bill for NCH so far - I'm sure a few more bill before it's finished.
This NBP is a drop in the ocean.

If that is your thought process. Then you are a swinging example of why the likes or Lowry or the H-Raes are so successful in this country.

3 Billion isnt a drop in the ocean and it never was.

turbbo · 26-04-2019 3:59pm

listermint wrote: »

Pay what? The company pays for itself. Its self profit. Its a good example of something that works well.

It's an example of a monopoly - no wonder it does so well.
Everybody wants electricity and are willing to pay for it - the same model doesn't apply to broadband.No private individual can sell back to the grid - yeah they're great aren't they!Also ESB have rural tariffs - so should they do the same with broadband charges? More for those in rural areas.

OneEightSeven · 26-04-2019 4:01pm

turbbo wrote: »

It's better spent on this than bailing out banks and city centre childrens hosp. IMHO

So spending €3 billion on rolling out fibre to every bungalow and McMansion in the state, where the takeup rate could be as low as 20% and the vast majority of rural dwellers just want high-speed, unlimited download for their leisure time, is more important than providing a bed for sick children.

Christ almighty.

turbbo · 26-04-2019 4:02pm

listermint wrote: »

If that is your thought process. Then you are a swinging example of why the likes or Lowry or the H-Raes are so successful in this country.

3 Billion isnt a drop in the ocean and it never was.

How much do we spend on the HSE annually? Once you know what is being spent on everything else in this country you soon realise that 3 bill for life changing infrastructure that will serve us well into the future is a bargain.

turbbo · 26-04-2019 4:05pm

OneEightSeven wrote: »

So spending €3 billion on rolling out fibre to every bungalow and McMansion in the state, where the takeup rate could be as low as 20% and the vast majority of rural dwellers just want high-speed, unlimited download for their leisure time, is more important than providing a bed for sick children.

Christ almighty.

Very simplistic viewpoint with a dollop of jealousy. Yeah the bed for sick children needs to be in the city centre with undergound parking. The devil is in the detail but it's great to ignore details and jump on politics bandwagon.

Orebro · 26-04-2019 5:53pm

As far as I can see, most of the noise is being made by the "I'm alright Jack, I have fibre" people complaining about the culchies getting broadband, as if rural Ireland doesn't desperately need it. I'd like to see City dwellers do without it for a few days at home and see what the attitude is then.

jobbridge4life · 26-04-2019 5:57pm

Orebro wrote: »

What speed broadband do you have?

In which of my properties? City, town or country? Country village, or Mountain top hideaway?

I'm not actually saying we don't need an NBP, or that the NBP shouldn't reach for 100% coverage. I'm saying that signing this specific contract because its all we got right now and the voters won't relect me to county council/European Parliament is the recipe for disaster.

pegasus1 · 26-04-2019 6:04pm

turbbo wrote: »

Also ESB have rural tariffs - so should they do the same with broadband charges? More for those in rural areas.

Wrong!! and right.... we live in a village, no bus service, but on a national route, 5 miles to nearest town, and we get the Urban Tarriff..go figure..

Orebro · 26-04-2019 6:09pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

In which of my properties? City, town or country? Country village, or Mountain top hideaway?

I'm not actually saying we don't need an NBP, or that the NBP shouldn't reach for 100% coverage. I'm saying that signing this specific contract because its all we got right now and the voters won't relect me to county council/European Parliament is the recipe for disaster.

So how much should the NBP cost after your analysis? Can you explain why you consider 3Bn to be a rip-off?

26-04-2019 6:10pm

Orebro wrote: »

So how much should the NBP cost after your analysis? Can you explain why you consider 3Bn to be a rip-off?

Handing over that money and NOT owning the network??
Not owning the network (Telecom Eireann) is exactly what caused this mess

ED E · 26-04-2019 6:12pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Handing over that money and NOT owning the network??
Not owning the network (Telecom Eireann) is exactly what caused this mess

No, council planners allowing stupid development patterns caused this. And Ambulance issues, and post problems, and shops closing. This is a symptom of decades of stupidity.

jobbridge4life · 26-04-2019 6:12pm

Orebro wrote: »

So how much should the NBP cost after your analysis? Can you explain why you consider 3Bn to be a rip-off?

I haven't said that I think 3bn would be a rip off. I haven't said that I know what the NBP should cost after my own analysis.

What I do think is that to do this (i.e. sign the contract) after such an obviously flawed process, purely for political reasons, to be seen to be doing something, is a recipe for disaster.

In addition if you believe that figure, I've a children's hospital for sale for 450 million. Ireland deserves better, those us from the country deserve better.

Pique · 26-04-2019 6:25pm

This thread started 4 years ago and it's close to hopefully being signed. Yet people are saying to scrap it and go back to square one or have the state provide it via the ESB.

How long would a new tender process take? How much more expensive would it be? How could we possibly avoid state aid sanctions and Ã‰ir taking us through the courts?

SMH

jobbridge4life · 26-04-2019 6:30pm

Pique wrote: »

This thread started 4 years ago and it's close to hopefully being signed. Yet people are saying to scrap it and go back to square one or have the state provide it via the ESB.

How long would a new tender process take? How much more expensive would it be? How could we possibly avoid state aid sanctions and Éir taking us through the courts?

SMH

Signing a contract does not preclude either state aid sanctions or legal actions from unsuccesful/withdrawn bidders. Signing a contract, in the circumstances faced today, might do almost the oposite.

listermint · 26-04-2019 6:56pm

Orebro wrote: »

As far as I can see, most of the noise is being made by the "I'm alright Jack, I have fibre" people complaining about the culchies getting broadband, as if rural Ireland doesn't desperately need it. I'd like to see City dwellers do without it for a few days at home and see what the attitude is then.

I'm living in rural Wicklow with no fibre.

So respectfully , your opinion means squat.

I pay large taxes and want them spent correctly.

And yes I also want high speed internet. Would need it for work. But not at any cost .

listermint · 26-04-2019 6:58pm

ED E wrote: »

No, council planners allowing stupid development patterns caused this. And Ambulance issues, and post problems, and shops closing. This is a symptom of decades of stupidity.

No. Handing off the telecom eireann system caused this. A network on state control would have been an ideal backbone.

But let's disregard that whole thing .... The planning office that's it..

listermint · 26-04-2019 6:59pm

Pique wrote: »

This thread started 4 years ago and it's close to hopefully being signed. Yet people are saying to scrap it and go back to square one or have the state provide it via the ESB.

How long would a new tender process take? How much more expensive would it be? How could we possibly avoid state aid sanctions and Ã‰ir taking us through the courts?

SMH

Same with the children's hospital..

That should never have been built in the city. It should have gone outside the M50 in blanch or colocate with tallaght.

But sure look let's just hammer on with things because time scales and that

Johnboy1951 · 26-04-2019 7:25pm

Regardless the time frame, has there ever been a costing for ESB to do this? What would the whole job cost, paid for by the state?

Interested only for comparison purposes.

digiman · 26-04-2019 7:36pm

Johnboy1951 wrote: »

Regardless the time frame, has there ever been a costing for ESB to do this? What would the whole job cost, paid for by the state?

Interested only for comparison purposes.

Compare to what though?

We still don't know how much its actually costing the remaining bidder to build and run it.

3B is only the subsidy cost, if we knew the figure that GMC are saying it will cost to build we could make a much better assessment of the whole thing.

We also need to know the cost to build it vs the cost to run it.

Johnboy1951 · 26-04-2019 7:45pm

digiman wrote: »

Compare to what though?

We still don't know how much its actually costing the remaining bidder to build and run it.

3B is only the subsidy cost, if we knew the figure that GMC are saying it will cost to build we could make a much better assessment of the whole thing.

We also need to know the cost to build it vs the cost to run it.

It would be a start if we had something to compare to, such as an ESB roll out.

Comparisons could then be made based on existing knowledge.
It might cost €20 bn or €2 bn ....... but it would certainly provide a figure to compare to, while retaining ownership.

Orebro · 26-04-2019 7:51pm

listermint wrote: »

I'm living in rural Wicklow with no fibre.

So respectfully , your opinion means squat.

I pay large taxes and want them spent correctly.

And yes I also want high speed internet. Would need it for work. But not at any cost .

With respect, my opinion has the same weight as yours.

There's some fierce hurling on the ditch going on here now. "It's a bleedin' disgrace Joe" type carry on without backing it up with facts is very annoying. How would you change this, and what is a reasonable cost since you think this is too much?

Orebro · 26-04-2019 7:54pm

listermint wrote: »

Same with the children's hospital..

That should never have been built in the city. It should have gone outside the M50 in blanch or colocate with tallaght.

But sure look let's just hammer on with things because time scales and that

The NCH was placed where it is based on best clinical advice. I happen to know one of the Paediatric consultants on the advisory board - you wouldn't believe some of the bat-sh1t crazy submissions they were getting. But of course the main argument against it is that it's a nightmare to drive to and park. Thank God that didn't come into the equation and the decision was made on the best care and outcomes for children.

26-04-2019 8:17pm

ED E wrote: »

No, council planners allowing stupid development patterns caused this. And Ambulance issues, and post problems, and shops closing. This is a symptom of decades of stupidity.

Blame planning all you want but handing over the national telecoms network removed any/all government strategic development. Everything is based on a commercial decision rather than the need of the country.

The electricity, water, and telecom grids are strategic assets and should always remain in state ownership. Companies free to utilise those grids at a cost.

The Cush · 26-04-2019 8:35pm

digiman wrote: »

We still don't know how much its actually costing the remaining bidder to build and run it.

3B is only the subsidy cost, if we knew the figure that GMC are saying it will cost to build we could make a much better assessment of the whole thing.

We also need to know the cost to build it vs the cost to run it.

Make what you will of this, Leo's reply to Micheál in the Dáil just recently

Micheál Martin: … there is an onus and an obligation on the Taoiseach to give the full cost. What is the overall cost of the project estimated to be? The subvention from the State will be €3 billion. Are there any additional costs, over and above that, to the bidder?

The Taoiseach: Not to my knowledge, but the decision has yet to be made by Cabinet. The decision that will be made by Cabinet in the next couple of weeks is whether to accept the bid and to designate this bidder as the preferred bidder, at which point contracts will have to be drawn up and signed, and that will take a few more months after that.

What the €3bn covers

The Taoiseach: … The contract is not only to build this network; the contract is to build the network, to operate it, to manage it, to maintain it, and also to rent the infrastructure from Eir, which will be necessary to rent for the reasons that people will understand. The cost of building it is only a proportion of the entire cost of a network that has to be built, managed and maintained and, of course, infrastructure rented from the incumbent.

Orebro · 26-04-2019 8:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Blame planning all you want but handing over the national telecoms network removed any/all government strategic development. Everything is based on a commercial decision rather than the need of the country.

The electricity, water, and telecom grids are strategic assets and should always remain in state ownership. Companies free to utilise those grids at a cost.

That ship has sailed though when Bertie and Co sold it all off to the vultures.

Lots of criticism here but no solutions. The ESB aren't interested in this, and the Gov can't simply hand this to an entity regardless, it had to go to tender. Would we still have the same feelings if things were exactly the same but it was SIRO or Eir being left as the only remaining bidder?

turbbo · 26-04-2019 9:15pm

Orebro wrote: »

That ship has sailed though when Bertie and Co sold it all off to the vultures.

Lots of criticism here but no solutions. The ESB aren't interested in this, and the Gov can't simply hand this to an entity regardless, it had to go to tender. Would we still have the same feelings if things were exactly the same but it was SIRO or Eir being left as the only remaining bidder?

They don’t want solutions. I have fibre already - I’m alright jack!

Johnboy1951 · 26-04-2019 9:17pm

Orebro wrote: »

That ship has sailed though when Bertie and Co sold it all off to the vultures.

Lots of criticism here but no solutions. The ESB aren't interested in this, and the Gov can't simply hand this to an entity regardless, it had to go to tender. Would we still have the same feelings if things were exactly the same but it was SIRO or Eir being left as the only remaining bidder?

At a price of €3 bn to the state and no ownership, a most emphatic YES.

ESB might not be interested, but an estimate of what it would cost them to do the same job would allow a comparison.

Ultimanemo · 27-04-2019 10:00am

I wish if everyone writes a comment here posts a speed test result

9726_9726 · 27-04-2019 2:25pm

Ultimanemo wrote: »

I wish if everyone writes a comment here posts a speed test result

Over WiFi with streams running in the background.

9726_9726 · 27-04-2019 2:28pm

I'm a taxpayer, in a well-served area. I have a huge problem with doing Telecom Eireann again. My opinion, which I am entitled to. I have children who will be paying for this guy's network. I think it is plain wrong.

Ultimanemo · 27-04-2019 4:51pm

9726_9726 wrote: »

I'm a taxpayer, in a well-served area. I have a huge problem with doing Telecom Eireann again. My opinion, which I am entitled to. I have children who will be paying for this guy's network. I think it is plain wrong.

That is absolutely fine, In every situation it is fair when people declare the conflict of Interests.

Orebro · 27-04-2019 5:47pm

9726_9726 wrote: »

I'm a taxpayer, in a well-served area. I have a huge problem with doing Telecom Eireann again. My opinion, which I am entitled to. I have children who will be paying for this guy's network. I think it is plain wrong.

Who is "this guy" you refer to? Looks like you're ok for broadband so Jack!

Ultimanemo · 27-04-2019 7:08pm

9726_9726 wrote: »

I'm a taxpayer, in a well-served area. I have a huge problem with doing Telecom Eireann again. My opinion, which I am entitled to. I have children who will be paying for this guy's network. I think it is plain wrong.

Actually for your children it gives them more choices if there is fast internet everywhere in the country, they can live and work anywhere and they don't need to pay expensive mortgage or crazy rent.
It is not as expensive as it looks it is 120 million a year and 120 million today is not equal to 120 million after 10 years

celticbhoy27 · 27-04-2019 7:22pm

9726_9726 wrote: »

I'm a taxpayer, in a well-served area. I have a huge problem with doing Telecom Eireann again. My opinion, which I am entitled to. I have children who will be paying for this guy's network. I think it is plain wrong.

Didn't know we could pick and choose where our taxes Went. Wonder could the people with no kids opt not to pay taxes towards the childrens hospital. They shouldn't have to pay for another guys kids to be treated. Just my opinion which I'm entitled to

Poulgorm · 27-04-2019 8:28pm

So, the ESB are not interested. They are state owned. The government could compel them to become interested. It would just take a letter from the appropriate minister to the the chairman.

The high horse brigade · 27-04-2019 8:53pm

Poulgorm wrote: »

So, the ESB are not interested. They are state owned. The government could compel them to become interested. It would just take a letter from the appropriate minister to the the chairman.

It's not as easy as that. To work anywhere on the ESB network you need to be a fully qualified electrician which is a much higher paid skilled worker than a telecoms engineer

9726_9726 · 27-04-2019 9:15pm

Orebro wrote: »

Who is "this guy" you refer to? Looks like you're ok for broadband so Jack!

I said I was. Who's Jack?

In case you haven't been following, David McCourt is the guy. Google him.

recyclebin · 27-04-2019 9:20pm

How well are they advertising fibre broadband that eir have been rolling out? I'm just in Cavan visiting the girlfriends in laws. They are on crap mobile broadband at the moment and didn't know that fibre was now in their rural area. I spotted the cable on the poles and looked up the house on the rollout website and sure enough fibre is active at their address and they had no idea about it.

Gary kk · 27-04-2019 9:58pm

I think the bill for Irish water upgrades is 10 billion everyone is paying tax on that even while most houses in rural areas have a well and all have septic tanks. Why can't rural Ireland have decent broadband without people giving out about having to pay tax towards it when or because there is no direct benefit to them.

rodge123 · 27-04-2019 10:47pm

Gary kk wrote: »

I think the bill for Irish water upgrades is 10 billion everyone is paying tax on that even while most houses in rural areas have a well and all have septic tanks. Why can't rural Ireland have decent broadband without people giving out about having to pay tax towards it when or because there is no direct benefit to them.

Yep, I pay about 300 every year on my well and septic tank maintenance.

listermint · 27-04-2019 10:51pm

Orebro wrote: »

With respect, my opinion has the same weight as yours.

There's some fierce hurling on the ditch going on here now. "It's a bleedin' disgrace Joe" type carry on without backing it up with facts is very annoying. How would you change this, and what is a reasonable cost since you think this is too much?

With respect it doesn't

You said most of the people in here are urban and have fibre. That's clearly waffle.

listermint · 27-04-2019 10:54pm

Orebro wrote: »

The NCH was placed where it is based on best clinical advice. I happen to know one of the Paediatric consultants on the advisory board - you wouldn't believe some of the bat-sh1t crazy submissions they were getting. But of course the main argument against it is that it's a nightmare to drive to and park. Thank God that didn't come into the equation and the decision was made on the best care and outcomes for children.

Clinical advice specifically why

What we know is James St isn't a paediatric hospital. It isn't a maternity hospital. I was born there btw many moons ago.

It's not located near any either.

Tallaght is a children's hospital and a teaching hospital. The clinical position doesn't stack up.

It appears the city centre location played heavily from a consultants perspective. Why well we may never know but perhaps they prefer the city. Dragging children from all over the country into the middle of Dublin via all forms of transportation and no parking . Most kids arrive in hospital via their parents cars btw ... I'm sure you know. Means that yes it's a primary concern for patient care

listermint · 27-04-2019 10:56pm

turbbo wrote: »

They don’t want solutions. I have fibre already - I’m alright jack!

I don't..so stop Spreading disinformation.

NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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