Anybody turned off the idea of having children because its more difficult for us?

1ZRed · 30-09-2012 11:29pm #1

Figured I'd watch Gay Daddy to see what it was about and what struck me as odd were the laws and legal protection, or lack of them, that surround adoption, surrogacy, etc for everyone not just LGBT people.

I'm not a guy who wants children, I'm sure it wouldn't work with what I want in future and the complete freedom I want in life. I have other reasons for believing this and they are valid to my decision, even if I'm at a young age.

But if I met someone who wanted children, and I turned on my stance a bit and considered the plunge, I don't think it would be worth the expense, the time, and the lack of legal protection for something I didn't fully see in my future to begin with, so I would be put off from even attempting it.

Would anyone else be the same way? Never dead set on children, maybe in favour and liking the idea, but put off by how difficult and frustrating the process seems to be in general.
Regardless of legal rights for a minute, it would always be a longer, more drawn out, and possibly, a more difficult route for gay people and reproductively challenged straight people to have children as apposed to a fertile straight couple.

So my question is for any other gay person that are on the fence about children, or anywhere in-between from having no interest to a bit, would you be put off given the work involved and the current legal situation?
For me, it would just make me realise I don't want children enough to go down that route.

And cheers to floggg for getting this marble rolling in my head with his thread in AH :P

Captain Graphite · 30-09-2012 11:58pm

I never want kids. Ever. I would be a terrible father that would end up resenting my kids and all the sacrifices I'd have to make for them. I've a nephew and a niece, and that's more than enough for me!

However, if I had my heart set on it, I don't think any amount of work or legal obstacles would stop me. If you badly want to be a parent then you'll do anything to make that happen, and if you're not willing to go through the headaches of the adoption process then you wouldn't really be suited to parenthood in the first place tbh; if one can't stomach that level of strife then what makes them think they're able to handle the strife of parenthood?

KDII · 01-10-2012 12:12am

I Always think its weird that I will never just "fall pregnant".. The time that I will have my baby will never be a pleasant surprise or some kind of fate And nature will never just decide it for me.

If I were living the single dream I don't think offspring would really be on my radar. Both me and my gf would like to get pregnant at some point but I know that for me, to watch little annoying minions of her grow would be so amazing.

Maybe it's different for women and men from some kind of evolutionary/biological perspective though..

1ZRed · 01-10-2012 12:30am

Captain Graphite wrote: »

I never want kids. Ever. I would be a terrible father that would end up resenting my kids and all the sacrifices I'd have to make for them. I've a nephew and a niece, and that's more than enough for me!

Well that's more or less what I think. I actually look forward to being an uncle but that's enough! I think I'd make a decent dad and kids seem to like me for some reason, but I just wouldn't want to be weighed down and having to make sacrafises for them. Feck that. As long as I settled down with a guy and I was doing well and happy with my life, that'd be all I'd want.

Captain Graphite wrote: »

However, if I had my heart set on it, I don't think any amount of work or legal obstacles would stop me. If you badly want to be a parent then you'll do anything to make that happen, and if you're not willing to go through the headaches of the adoption process then you wouldn't really be suited to parenthood in the first place tbh; if one can't stomach that level of strife then what makes them think they're able to handle the strife of parenthood?

I'm not asking people who are dead set on the idea of having kids because it's understandable they'd go to all lengths to have them. More or less asking people that just assumed they'd have children but weren't dead set on it if they'd change their minds because it's more complicated.
But I agree with you on the last part and I think I'll always see it as more bother than it's worth!

wonderfulname · 01-10-2012 1:07am

I've always maintained I'd never raise a child without full legal recognition for the family unit, not due to difficulty, but instability, I'd imagine that would change with age though.

I'm turned off the idea of actually having children because that crap just ain't happening to my body.

Davyhal · 01-10-2012 12:54pm

When I was younger, I always dreamed of having a small army of kids, but as I came to terms with my sexuality, I accepted that it would not just happen for me. When I accepted I was gay, I also accepted that I would not have kids (well, not in the same sense as I previously did). It was difficult, but after a few years, I am comfortable with the fact that I won't have kids. My family sometimes say to me that I should start saving my money now if I want to put down a deposit on a house and get a mortgage in future years, but to be honest, I don't see the point in buying a house when i do not see a family on the cards. While a future partner might change my perspective, but at the moment, the hope is just for me and him, so a big house is not necessary. I don't really allow myself to even consider kids any more, but as 1ZREd says above, I look forward to being an uncle, as I already dote on my friends' kids

whattotdo · 01-10-2012 1:12pm

I watched that documentary also and from what I remember the presenter came to the conclusion that there isn't sufficient/any legal protection there for homosexual couples who want to have children so he isn't considering it yet.I would like kids of my own but it's just not possible.

Azure_sky · 01-10-2012 1:29pm

Meh, I'd only swap the kid for an I-pod. :pac:

Intouch9 · 01-10-2012 4:40pm

I'm a gay guy and I 100% want a child before I'm 35 and will be doing everything in my power to make sure that it happens. Options are pretty limited in Ireland but I'll get over that. The more work I put into it, the better the feeling when I finally make it happen.

Conor30 · 01-10-2012 7:36pm

Intouch9 wrote: »

I'm a gay guy and I 100% want a child before I'm 35 and will be doing everything in my power to make sure that it happens. Options are pretty limited in Ireland but I'll get over that. The more work I put into it, the better the feeling when I finally make it happen.

Good on you. Would you consider having a child as a single man? I don't know what age you are now, but you might not be in stable relationship or in any relationship when you're in your late 20's/early 30's. Almost all of my gay friends are single and most of any of the gay guys I know are too, and most of them chronically single at that!

Donnaghm · 01-10-2012 7:36pm

I'd love to have a kid, biological or through adoption or by raising my future partner's child or whatever. But I know there's about a 90% chance of this not happening.

Intouch9 · 01-10-2012 11:58pm

Conor30 wrote: »

Good on you. Would you consider having a child as a single man? I don't know what age you are now, but you might not be in stable relationship or in any relationship when you're in your late 20's/early 30's. Almost all of my gay friends are single and most of any of the gay guys I know are too, and most of them chronically single at that!

I'm in a relationship now and have been for 3 years. In saying that... I've never imagined myself having a kid with an OH, always thought of me doing it alone. So that will certainly take some adapting.

To answer your question, I would have no hesitation in going it alone. I know what I want and I intend to make it happen.

I'm 25 ( as of 2 days ago...

) BTW.

Captain Graphite · 02-10-2012 2:47am

Intouch9 wrote: »

I'm 25 ( as of 2 days ago... ) BTW.

Happy (slightly belated) birthday!

baby and crumble · 02-10-2012 3:05am

I want children. I want to be a parent, and raise a child well, as well as I can. In a perfect world I'd love to be able to see what a mix of me and my gf would turn out like- but I'm certainly not dead set on the child having to be genetically related to either or both of us. We'd love to adopt, but right now we'd have to adopt as a single parent, and even if we do have a child naturally, that child would have no security or guarentee to stay with the non birth mother. I can think of nothing more scarring for a child than to loose both parents at the same time, one through death and te other because the legal system is the way it is.

Ideally we would like to wait until any children we have together have equal rights to security and care from both of us should something bad happen, but as I'm in my 30's and my gf is only slightly younger, we may not have te luxury of waiting for that to happen before we begin trying for a family. I do feel honest resentment towards those people in society who truly think that a child conceived in a drunken one night sand up against a bin behind a pub will be better looked after and more loved than a child that myself and my partner have to plan and try for, perhaps for years before we are successful. I don't understand it. I know I'll be a good mum, and my gf even more so.

Intouch9 · 02-10-2012 1:32pm

baby and crumble wrote: »

I want children. I want to be a parent, and raise a child well, as well as I can. In a perfect world I'd love to be able to see what a mix of me and my gf would turn out like- but I'm certainly not dead set on the child having to be genetically related to either or both of us. We'd love to adopt, but right now we'd have to adopt as a single parent, and even if we do have a child naturally, that child would have no security or guarentee to stay with the non birth mother. I can think of nothing more scarring for a child than to loose both parents at the same time, one through death and te other because the legal system is the way it is.

Ideally we would like to wait until any children we have together have equal rights to security and care from both of us should something bad happen, but as I'm in my 30's and my gf is only slightly younger, we may not have te luxury of waiting for that to happen before we begin trying for a family. I do feel honest resentment towards those people in society who truly think that a child conceived in a drunken one night sand up against a bin behind a pub will be better looked after and more loved than a child that myself and my partner have to plan and try for, perhaps for years before we are successful. I don't understand it. I know I'll be a good mum, and my gf even more so.

Really well said. What would be interesting (and it's most likely probably already here!) is a thread outlining the (limited) options that prospective LGBTQ parents in Ireland have.

Sir Pompous Righteousness · 02-10-2012 1:51pm

Lesbian couples can always do cloning if they both want to be genetically related to their child. For male couples, it's a little bit more complication - but I believe there's research being done, they've already tested it successfully on mice.

As for actually having children in the future, I believe I'm too immature to even consider it to be honest.

Conor30 · 02-10-2012 8:24pm

Intouch9 wrote: »

I'm in a relationship now and have been for 3 years. In saying that... I've never imagined myself having a kid with an OH, always thought of me doing it alone. So that will certainly take some adapting.

To answer your question, I would have no hesitation in going it alone. I know what I want and I intend to make it happen.

I'm 25 ( as of 2 days ago... ) BTW.

Fair enough. Personally, I'd rather have a child when in a relationship than be a single parent, if I were to have a child at all. That's just me.

My own view as well is that you know a partner is right for you (and you want to marry them) when you imagine yourself raising a child with them.

floggg · 03-10-2012 10:12am

I would think personally the ideal would be in a stable committed relationship before having a child.

Not to knock single patents, some of whom are simply amazing parents and raise great kids, but generally studies have shown that children do better when in stable two parent homes (regardless of gender).

I think when deciding to have kids, it has to be about more than wanting them, it's about being able to provide a stable, healthy, loving environment for them. I personally wouldn't even consider kids unless I thought I could provide just that, which to my mind would involve a husband.

I think this issue is closely connected to marriage equality - once marriage equality is achieved I think the issue of parental rights and responsibilities for LGBT families will also have to be looked at and brought into line. I guess if the State doesn't officially recognise LGBT families (as opposed to civil partnerships which seem to be primarily concerned with the couple not the family), there is no imperative for them to support them through legislation.

So for those of you who feel passionately about the issue, perhaps you might consider getting involved with or supporting the various marriage equality campaigns.

As for whether I want kids, I don't know. I don't think the legal or biological difficulties would deter me if I decided its something I really wanted. I'm still not sure if I do, though I think deep down I might be favourably inclined towards the idea.

What would concern me far more than the difficulties involved in having a child would be the difficulties the child might face for having two fathers and whether they might resent us both for it.

That said, I would only ever plan on adopting, so I feel that even with those difficulties I would be giving that child an opportunity in life and a loving home that he would otherwise maybe never have. So I think overall it would be something positive in their life.*

Personally, I would go through the whole process of surrogacy etc if I was having a child. Regardless of what way you slice it, we aren't having a child in the normal way. I think in a way it's kind of selfish to spend so much money on having a child that will be carried by somebody else and that would be genetically related to only one of you when there are so many kids around the world in need of a good home.

That is just my view I guess, though it might be different for lesbians where one partner will be pregnant and they will both be there right through the pregnancy.

*given how I felt the correct myself from writing "he" when referring to my hypothetical future child , if I do decide to have kids, then clearly I want a son/sons. All-Ireland winning sons.

stephen_n · 03-10-2012 1:28pm

floggg wrote: »

I think when deciding to have kids, it has to be about more than wanting them, it's about being able to provide a stable, healthy, loving environment for them.
.

That's assuming there is a decision made, I would guess from my own experience and that of many of friends with kids, that decision making comes after the fact! Where as aseperationally kids maybe be in the pipeline, for a lot of people they are something that's reacted to and not planned for!

Children to put it bluntly are a biproduct of heterosexual sex, they are not something planned for but unfortunately just because you can create them, it doesn't always follow that you can look after them. I would hope that some day society in a wider sense begins to understand this and act accordingly! As much as I feel sorry for Elton Johns child, as the media attention will be awful, it's important to have publicized cases of same sex couples being good parents to challenge the social taboos. It's also important for those couples who want children at this moment in time, not to be put off by recognition or any other issues, to have more success stories to challenge the BS arguments!

floggg · 03-10-2012 2:42pm

stephen_n wrote: »

floggg wrote: »

I think when deciding to have kids, it has to be about more than wanting them, it's about being able to provide a stable, healthy, loving environment for them.
.

That's assuming there is a decision made, I would guess from my own experience and that of many of friends with kids, that decision making comes after the fact! Where as aseperationally kids maybe be in the pipeline, for a lot of people they are something that's reacted to and not planned for!

Children to put it bluntly are a biproduct of heterosexual sex, they are not something planned for but unfortunately just because you can create them, it doesn't always follow that you can look after them. I would hope that some day society in a wider sense begins to understand this and act accordingly! As much as I feel sorry for Elton Johns child, as the media attention will be awful, it's important to have publicized cases of same sex couples being good parents to challenge the social taboos. It's also important for those couples who want children at this moment in time, not to be put off by recognition or any other issues, to have more success stories to challenge the BS arguments!

Well in the context of gay parenting, children are very much a planned thing. Ain't no accidents where two men or two women are involved.

And while its not so in all cases, children can very much be planned in heterosexual relationship. Obviously no contraception is fool proof, but if used effectively the chances of unplanned pregnancy is quite low. So the vast majority of couples do have the means to plan for children and ensure that the only have them when they are ready.

Not all couples avail of those means obviously though for whatever reason. As long as they are willing and able to take full responsibility for their kids then that's fine.

It's the ones who won't do either (use contraception or take care of their kids) who are the problem.

stephen_n · 03-10-2012 2:52pm

floggg wrote: »

Well in the context of gay parenting, children are very much a planned thing. Ain't no accidents where two men or two women are involved.

And while its not so in all cases, children can very much be planned in heterosexual relationship. Obviously no contraception is fool proof, but if used effectively the chances of unplanned pregnancy is quite low. So the vast majority of couples do have the means to plan for children and ensure that the only have them when they are ready.

Not all couples avail of those means obviously though for whatever reason. As long as they are willing and able to take full responsibility for their kids then that's fine.

It's the ones who won't do either (use contraception or take care of their kids) who are the problem.

You'd be surprised at how ineffective the most popular methods of contraception are, especially oral ones and the amount of things that can prevent them working!

I wasn't trying to ignore the context of your point, I was attempting to use it as a parallel, to question the acceptable or "normal" model of parenting!

periodictable · 03-10-2012 8:32pm

Older than most here....and here's my 2c worth.
Had planned on having my own kid, but changed my mind in early 30s.
First, what's the reason in having a kid? To complete yourself or something like that? That's fine, but as far as I'm concerned the wellbeing of a child kid comes 1-9 in a list of 10.
I have pals both dykes and gay who raise either adopted or biological children, and they do as good a job as any other parents, and probably better.
However for me, my mother was very important-and father too, but there's something about a having a mother that is important. It's something primal. As for raising a boy in a home without a father, it often leads to problems. I've seen it in single parent families where a firm and guiding male is absent. Possibly these needs can be mitigated by having opposite sex figures included in the circle/family.
I realise I'll be crucified for my opinion. In NO way do I demean single sex families-I think the reason that gay parents often produce more rounded offspring is that they have to plan and work out to actually have a child, whereas I'd agree with John Lennon's observation that " ninety percent of the people on this planet, especially in the West, were born out of a bottle of whiskey on a Saturday night, and there was no intent to have children".
Also, being gay means being the underdog, so it gives one a perspective on life that one might otherwise not have had, and often this is passed on to the children.
As for being difficult here, I don't think that will be a huge problem-if it means kids slagging and bullying, then one must be ready to ensure that it cannot happen by choosing the correct shcools and neighbourhoods and if necessary to go to court to vindicate the rights of the child.
Ok....now I await the bullets.

Donnaghm · 03-10-2012 8:39pm

periodictable wrote: »

Older than most here....and here's my 2c worth.
Had planned on having my own kid, but changed my mind in early 30s.
First, what's the reason in having a kid? To complete yourself or something like that? That's fine, but as far as I'm concerned the wellbeing of a child kid comes 1-9 in a list of 10.
I have pals both dykes and gay who raise either adopted or biological children, and they do as good a job as any other parents, and probably better.
However for me, my mother was very important-amy father too, but there's something about a having a mother that is important. It's something primal. As for raising a boy in a home without a father, it often leads to problems. I've seen it in single parent families where a firm and guiding male is absent. Possibly these needs can be mitigated by having opposite sex figures included in the circle/family.
I realise I'll be crucified for my opinion. In NO way do I demean single sex families-I think the reason that gay parents often produce more rounded offspring is that they have to plan and work out to to actually have a child, whereas I'd agree with John Lennon's observation that " ninety percent of the people on this planet, especially in the West, were born out of a bottle of whiskey on a Saturday night, and there was no intent to have children".
Also, being gay means being the underdog, so it gives one a perspective on life that one might otherwise not have had, and often this is passed on to the children.
Ok....now I await the bullets.

Launches nuclear device at periodictable.....

Chick_chick · 04-10-2012 10:53am

baby and crumble wrote: »

....that child would have no security or guarentee to stay with the non birth mother. I can think of nothing more scarring for a child than to loose both parents at the same time, one through death and te other because the legal system is the way it is.

The biological parent can sign a testamentary guardianship order (i hope i got the name right) so that in the event (as rotten as it is to have to consider this in a relationship) of the death of the biological parent, the guardianship will fall to whoever the biological parent has indicated, in this case, the partner. That's what my partner and I are doing anyway, obviously in the hope that we'll never have to use it. *touches wood*

Annasopra · 04-01-2013 11:08pm

I would really love to be a parent at some stage in the future. It's heartening that the current government is proposing changes in family law to recognise same sex parents.

crawlb4uwalk · 05-01-2013 12:47am

mango salsa wrote: »

I would really love to be a parent at some stage in the future. It's heartening that the current government is proposing changes in family law to recognise same sex parents.

Alan Shatter mentioned this in November, has there been an update in the passed few days?

Petey89 · 05-01-2013 7:58pm

Im 23 and at the min i dont think i want kids, i have nieces and nephews and there great but it is nice to hand them back after babysitting, sometimes i think a little mini me would be cool but i want to travel and just be free to do what i please. I am in a relationship for the last 2 and a half years, my partner is a bit older hes 28 and wev talked about the future like marriage and a house. I know he would like kids someday but i think just having nieces and nephews would do. and maybe we get a dog lol. But who knows as i get older things might change.

lazorgirl · 09-01-2013 10:39pm

my ramblings on this thread
i had kind of always presumed that i would have kids with previous OH and had thought that she would do the "carrying" not only because it was something she desired more than me but probably also because she is more typically maternal and i really wanted to do the caring for her, minding her, rubbing her feet, feeling our child inside her...
a year post break up,things have changed a lot, and my feelings to have kids myself have intensified greatly. exploring my options more and at ease with my issues regarding being pregnant. funny thing is when i have talked to people about this, my straight friends and family are super supportive while the majority of gay friends think its not right/ideal/suitable,that i'm crazy to do it being outside of a relationship. the ultimate goal for me within or without a relationship was to love my child totally and to help him or her realise there are no boundaries or limits to what they want to achieve. the "difficulties" i may have in achieving this goal certainly don't put me off and perhaps may enhance the experience for me.

Annasopra · 09-01-2013 10:45pm

Lazorgirl

If you think financially and emotionally that you are able for it and if you think you have enough support from friends and family then go for it

ninty9er · 09-01-2013 11:44pm

I'm just turned 26 and want to have kids, at least 2. I will never have nieces or nephews, though I'm sure my close friends will have kids whose lives I could be a part of the same way as a relative is with all of their close friends kids.

In an ideal world I'd have a kid already, but I'm not in a relationship, work 45-55 hours a week and my income barely pays what bills I have at the moment.

If I were to meet someone, get hitched etc and have kids, I would love the idea of being a stay-at-home dad if circumstances matched. We are all shaped by our own upbringing, and I would never want to have a baby after I hit 35, but if my future hypothetical husband were not opposed, I would have no hesitation in adopting a toddler/young child so long as I'm fit and healthy enough to be able to be fun to a kid.

I don't want to be that dad with the great career, but who's too old to go for a kickaround, there's a balance somewhere in between.

Legalities and money will not get in my way once I have a husband and stability.

lazorgirl · 10-01-2013 9:46pm

mango salsa wrote: »

Lazorgirl

If you think financially and emotionally that you are able for it and if you think you have enough support from friends and family then go for it

Thanks Mango Salsa. Im in a pretty good position from a financial and more importantly emotional/mental viewpoint and would have great support from family & friends. The biggest step for me has been acknowledging this strong desire within myself and dealing with any fears i have about being a "good parent".

Anybody turned off the idea of having children because its more difficult for us?

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