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    #122
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Honestly, your posts show more empathy to horny men than exploited women and I think that’s disgusting.

    Your opinion of me means literally nothing to me.

    Where have i shown empathy to anyone, i want to see a reform of an industry that exploits people working in the sex industry, unlike yourself i don't bury my head in the sand and make believe that we can regulate "horny" out of men, you need to up your game and stop with the childish sniping, and I'll once again ask you to provide links to say the new laws brought in to protect people working in the sex industry are better protected now than before


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    #123
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Okay with it would be a good way of putting it. I don’t object to it but I’ll admit I’m not fully comfortable with it. I don’t think it’s good for either the individuals involved or for society more broadly.

    Thanks Kiki, that's a fair comment, you haven't been stuck on one line of thinking and I'd be of a similar line of thought.
    I don't think its particularly is a good life choice for a woman, but a person should be able to make a choice. It's a free world. For some people they might be delighted with it, each to their own.

    Problem with the ad is it's like something from the stone age and not getting to the root of the problem, the criminal gangs.


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    #124
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Still waters wrote: »
    Where have i shown empathy to anyone, i want to see a reform of an industry that exploits people working in the sex industry, unlike yourself i don't bury my head in the sand and make believe that we can regulate "horny" out of men, you need to up your game and stop with the childish sniping, and I'll once again ask you to provide links to say the new laws brought in to protect people working in the sex industry are better protected now than before

    I never said they were better protected now, so why do you keep asking me for links to back up a point I never made?


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    #125
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    KiKi III wrote: »
    This hasn’t worked well in other countries like Germany where sex trafficking is still a problem. I used to advocate legalisation and regulation until I heard this.

    More resources needed to protect human rights.


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    #126
    anewme
    Registered Users Posts: 11,866 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    And you are conflating people who chose to do something with those who are forced by criminals.

    Sex workers are people who should not be moralised to by you or anyone else, sex trafficking victims are people who should be assisted by law enforcement by having criminal gangs rounded up and locked away in stinking holes for the rest of their lives.

    One thing is for sure, moralising against sex workers makes the latter even less likely to happen because as long as sex work is perceived to be the preserve of people only deserving of scorn or at best pity those trapped in the criminal underground will never be seen as a priority for crime agencies.

    We saw a version of that in Britain with all the scandals over Pakistani sex gangs grooming, coercing and pimping young girls right under the noses of the authorities. What was the general attitude of the Police and local authorities ignoring these crimees: "sure they are only whores"

    The fact that you are so entrenched in your personal beliefs that prostitution is bad, wrong, dirty, immoral, etc that you cannot see the stigma this attitude promotes is a large part of the reason sex trafficking is so poorly policed is sad.

    Please cut to the chase and stop waffling and deflecting with your one way monologues. It is just gaslighting.

    Again as per my previous post, show me where I ( or others) said prostitution is bad, dirty, immoral on this thread.

    I cant actually see where anyone did.


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    #127
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Still waters wrote: »
    make believe that we can regulate "horny" out of men

    Why do you feel horny men = visiting prostitutes?


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    #128
    mycro2013
    Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭mycro2013


    KiKi III wrote: »
    This hasn’t worked well in other countries like Germany where sex trafficking is still a problem. I used to advocate legalisation and regulation until I heard this.

    Australia's system appears to be the most effective model with it being seen as a legitimate business. But like all industries there will always be rogue operators.


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    #129
    Ulysses Gaze
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,570 ✭✭✭Ulysses Gaze


    KiKi III wrote: »
    This hasn’t worked well in other countries like Germany where sex trafficking is still a problem. I used to advocate legalisation and regulation until I heard this.

    Legalisation will not stop trafficking. Nothing will.

    At least legalising it will do a couple of things.


    - Make it safer for women that want to work in the industry to do so.
    - Introduce compulsory STI testing as exists in places like Austria
    - Taxing earnings on escorts and brothels will give governments even more money to help stymie trafficking to a degree.

    The model we have followed, the Swedish model of prosecuting Johns, is going to do nothing.


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    #130
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    And you are conflating people who chose to do something with those who are forced by criminals.

    Sex workers are people who should not be moralised to by you or anyone else, sex trafficking victims are people who should be assisted by law enforcement by having criminal gangs rounded up and locked away in stinking holes for the rest of their lives.

    One thing is for sure, moralising against sex workers makes the latter even less likely to happen because as long as sex work is perceived to be the preserve of people only deserving of scorn or at best pity those trapped in the criminal underground will never be seen as a priority for crime agencies.

    We saw a version of that in Britain with all the scandals over Pakistani sex gangs grooming, coercing and pimping young girls right under the noses of the authorities. What was the general attitude of the Police and local authorities ignoring these crimees: "sure they are only whores"

    The fact that you are so entrenched in your personal beliefs that prostitution is bad, wrong, dirty, immoral, etc that you cannot see the stigma this attitude promotes is a large part of the reason sex trafficking is so poorly policed is sad.

    Somehow comparing the sexual abuse & rape of young girls with prostitutes!
    You came up with that.....


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    #131
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    And you are conflating people who chose to do something with those who are forced by criminals.

    Sex workers are people who should not be moralised to by you or anyone else, sex trafficking victims are people who should be assisted by law enforcement by having criminal gangs rounded up and locked away in stinking holes for the rest of their lives.

    One thing is for sure, moralising against sex workers makes the latter even less likely to happen because as long as sex work is perceived to be the preserve of people only deserving of scorn or at best pity those trapped in the criminal underground will never be seen as a priority for crime agencies.

    We saw a version of that in Britain with all the scandals over Pakistani sex gangs grooming, coercing and pimping young girls right under the noses of the authorities. What was the general attitude of the Police and local authorities ignoring these crimees: "sure they are only whores"

    The fact that you are so entrenched in your personal beliefs that prostitution is bad, wrong, dirty, immoral, etc that you cannot see the stigma this attitude promotes is a large part of the reason sex trafficking is so poorly policed is sad.

    Nope, I’ve heard of Irish girls working as “sugar babies” and making a fortune of rich auld fellas and I don’t have a moralistic view that is bad/ dirty/ wrong/ immoral.

    I’m still not totally comfortable with it (I would wonder what it would do to their mental health in the long term among other risks) but there’s certainly a part of me that thinks good for them.

    All my posts are centred around women who are trafficked and exploited, they are my main concern and no one on the thread has said anything that allays those concerns for me.


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    #132
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Ulysses Gaze wrote: »
    Legalisation will not stop trafficking. Nothing will.

    At least legalising it will do a couple of things.


    - Make it safer for women that want to work in the industry to do so.
    - Introduce compulsory STI testing as exists in places like Austria
    - Taxing earnings on escorts and brothels will give governments even more money to help stymie trafficking to a degree.

    The model we have followed, the Swedish model of prosecuting Johns, is going to do nothing.

    It would do those things, and there are some benefits to them. It’s difficult to say whether those benefits would be outweighed by the long-term detrimental effects to the individuals involved and to society.

    I used to be very pro-legalisation and regulation/ taxation but I’m just not confident at the moment that there are enough pros to outweigh the cons, and that the irish government would introduce it in an effective way.


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    #133
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    KiKi III wrote: »
    This hasn’t worked well in other countries like Germany where sex trafficking is still a problem. I used to advocate legalisation and regulation until I heard this.

    You keep saying this like it means anything, it's a nonsensical lazy argument, if people like you were in charge we'd still be living in grass huts, as a feminist you should be a lot more willing to adapt and change rather than just accepting that if something is only half broken then it'll do fine, if people like you were feminists in the early 20th century women would still be looking foe the vote


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    #134
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Still waters wrote: »
    You keep saying this like it means anything, it's a nonsensical lazy argument, if people like you were in charge we'd still be living in grass huts, as a feminist you should be a lot more willing to adapt and change rather than just accepting that if something is only half broken then it'll do fine, if people like you were feminists in the early 20th century women would still be looking foe the vote

    Cool story, bro.


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    #135
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    Still waters wrote: »
    You keep saying this like it means anything, it's a nonsensical lazy argument, if people like you were in charge we'd still be living in grass huts, as a feminist you should be a lot more willing to adapt and change rather than just accepting that if something is only half broken then it'll do fine, if people like you were feminists in the early 20th century women would still be looking foe the vote

    Yep "it should be legalized" but we can't legalize as the police/government are useless argument..we have reached the real problem so. The criminal gangs must be strangled.


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    #136
    tea and coffee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,823 ✭✭✭tea and coffee


    Quantum Erasure wrote: »
    It's been a good while since i checked, but look up 'irish escorts' or escort ireland, or whatever it's called and you'd see mostly foreigners, eastern european, south american, here for a few weeks, a month.
    It'll give the dates they are available, check a few weeks later, a whole different set of girls.

    Are these 'trafficked', or are they 'on tour'?

    Trafficked. They are brought in by pimps to an area for a set time, as you say for a few weeks to X town. Then they are moved on to the next place. They usually give a few weeks notice so you can "book in"
    Don't assume that "what you see if what you get" from those websites either.
    Also, I have heard it alleged thst there are trends for different women from different places, which, if true, is horrible. Women are not the latest pair of trendy shoes. >:-(

    The ad is about not making excuses for it, and yet there have been a few on this thread excusing it already.
    There was a campaign done a while back where a phone number was given out (think Call 086 1234567 for a good time) and when people called the number the "girl" on the other end said - I've been trafficked etc. . The vast majority of callers after hearing that said.... "I'll help you"?? No! The vast majority said "how much?"
    That is truly an indictment of us as people.


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    #137
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    KiKi III wrote: »
    It would do those things, and there are some benefits to them. It’s difficult to say whether those benefits would be outweighed by the long-term detrimental effects to the individuals involved and to society.

    I used to be very pro-legalisation and regulation/ taxation but I’m just not confident at the moment that there are enough pros to outweigh the cons, and that the irish government would introduce it in an effective way.

    You'll never make it safe for everyone and regulation won't do anything to address the issue of child abuse and other illegal practices but its better than nothing. Currently these women and men are invisible and unprotected, they deserve better than that.


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    #138
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Empty_Space wrote: »
    Yep "it should be legalized" but we can't legalize as the police/government are useless argument..we have reached the real problem so.

    It’s a complicated problem with a number of layers, so it needs a more nuanced solution than “Just legalise it and everything will be fine”...


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    #139
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Why do you feel horny men = visiting prostitutes?

    I don't think i said that


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    #140
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    eviltwin wrote: »
    You'll never make it safe for everyone and regulation won't do anything to address the issue of child abuse and other illegal practices but its better than nothing. Currently these women and men are invisible and unprotected, they deserve better than that.

    I am 100% with you on that.

    The consensus on the thread seems to be to leave things as they are now, which is problematic for reasons that have been highlighted, or legalise it, which is problematic for different reasons.

    I think anyone suggesting simple solutions like “legalise it” without fully thinking through how that would work is very naive.


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    #141
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    KiKi III wrote: »
    Cool story, bro.

    A fitting reply


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    #142
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    KiKi III wrote: »
    It’s a complicated problem with a number of layers, so it needs a more nuanced solution than “Just legalise it and everything will be fine”...

    Legalize to protect a person's right to make own decisions. That right needs to be forefront.
    If there are crimes committed thereafter, again act to protect the people's rights. Stamp out the criminals.

    People need to be consistent in protecting rights and pushing their own morals on others.


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    #143
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Still waters wrote: »
    I don't think i said that

    Your posts include,
    Innocent men
    Basic needs of men
    Horny men
    Etc etc
    While you have called the girls whores
    I think it's fairly obvious what your opinion is on prostitutes

    You are more sympathetic to the poor 'innocent' men then the poor trafficked women


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    #144
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    KiKi III wrote: »
    You obviously haven’t read my posts.

    I’ve made two things clear: 1. I understand the sex trade will never be eradicated and 2. I understand that some women willingly choose prostitution as a profession.

    I have read your posts, by all means explain why anyone of age who wishes to willingly engages in sexual activity for money should be criminalised or forced to work in the black market to do so?

    KiKi III wrote: »
    My point is that many don’t, and when you walk into a hotel room or brothel most of the time you you really have no idea whether the woman is being exploited or is there of her own free will.

    And is that a chance you’re willing to take?

    I don't, if I wanted to pay for sex I could quite easily find someone that is working by choice.

    Expecting everyone to chose not to partake of prostitution that may or may not be coerced either because their heartstrings have been tugged by tales of trafficked women or because an ineffective law has been passed is just fairytale fantasy, the only way to deal with exploitation is to target the exploiters.


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    #145
    KiKi III
    Registered Users Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭KiKi III


    Empty_Space wrote: »
    Legalize to protect a person's right to make own decisions. That right needs to be forefront.
    If there are crimes committed thereafter, again act to protect the people's rights. Stamp out the criminals.

    People need to be consistent in protecting rights and pushing their own morals on others.

    We’ll have to agree to disagree. We’re going around in circles at this stage which is generally an good time to call it a night.

    Fundamentally, you seem to believe that individual’s rights to buy and sell sex is more important than protecting vulnerable people from criminal gangs and that’s not a position I can get onboard with.


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    #146
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Empty_Space wrote: »
    Legalize to protect a person's right to make own decisions.

    Asked you this already
    Which people & what rights?


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    #147
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    I have read your posts, by all means explain why anyone of age who wishes to willingly engages in sexual activity for money should be criminalised or forced to work in the black market to do so?




    I don't, if I wanted to pay for sex I could quite easily find someone that is working by choice.

    Expecting everyone to chose not to partake of prostitution that may or may not be coerced either because their heartstrings have been tugged by tales of trafficked women or because an ineffective law has been passed is just fairytale fantasy, the only way to deal with exploitation is to target the exploiters.

    How is it fairytale fantasy?
    Surely if a decent man, who actually cares about human rights, wants to pay for sex, he will find someone who is selling because they want to?
    Why would a decent man just pay for sex with some woman if he thinks they are there against their will?

    Unless you are suggesting that men who pay for sex don't care about the rights of the women they are paying?


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    #148
    Empty_Space
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭Empty_Space


    KiKi III wrote: »
    We’ll have to agree to disagree. We’re going around in circles at this stage which is generally an good time to call it a night.

    Fundamentally, you seem to believe that individual’s rights to buy and sell sex is more important than protecting vulnerable people from criminal gangs and that’s not a position I can get onboard with.

    Ok, we are going a bit in circles.

    Last one I promise.
    I don't think an individuals right to buy/sell sex is more important. I just think both are not dependent. Prioritise a person's rights and commit fully and we will get there.
    Once a person's rights are taken away for their own good we are on a slippery slope, instead tackle the root of the problem.


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    #149
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    KiKi III wrote: »
    This hasn’t worked well in other countries like Germany where sex trafficking is still a problem. I used to advocate legalisation and regulation until I heard this.

    Decriminalising alone won't magically disappear the gangs, Germany just stopped pretending that it was something they were prepared to put resources into policing.

    They have not put the required resources into tackling the criminal gangs so they still operate lucrative sex trafficking rings.


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    #150
    Still waters
    Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Your posts include,
    Innocent men
    Basic needs of men
    Horny men
    Etc etc
    While you have called the girls whores
    I think it's fairly obvious what your opinion is on prostitutes

    You are more sympathetic to the poor 'innocent' men then the poor trafficked women

    You're reading things i haven't written down to fit your own agenda, I'm firmly on the side of a safe regulated industry for both men and women, i apologized in a previous post for the use of the word hookers, i apologise again, i quoted "horny" in reply to kiki, i never mention whores in any of my posts in a derogatory manner.


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    #151
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    bubblypop wrote: »
    How is it fairytale fantasy?
    Surely if a decent man, who actually cares about human rights, wants to pay for sex, he will find someone who is selling because they want to?
    Why would a decent man just pay for sex with some woman if he thinks they are there against their will?

    He would, as I said if I wanted to I would find one, it really isn't that difficult if you put a small amount of effort into it.

    It's fantasy to expect everyone to care enough or think past their own desires enough to care.
    bubblypop wrote: »
    Unless you are suggesting that men who pay for sex don't care about the rights of the women they are paying?

    Some do, some don't, some are ignorant, some probably do know or have suspicions but convince themselves otherwise in order to justify their actions.

    As the whole industry is essentially black-market it is near impossible to get accurate data, much of what is out there is unreliable because it comes from groups with agendas.


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