Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

WoollyRedHat · 20-10-2019 10:18pm

bilston wrote: »

But he hasn't started his role yet, so why pay him off before he starts?

Because he signed the contract presumably. Someone was talking about shipping him out and going for someone better, but you can't do that without renumeration plus the optics would be awful and what's the point, should be given a chance.

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:19pm

Annabella1 wrote: »

Think the overseas player ban should be removed every 4 years for WC year
This wouldn’t hurt provinces

So let’s player work hard for 4 years, then when it comes to pinnacle of their career tell them to feck off because you want to bring in a lad who left for money a few years back

The a sure fire way to kill the team spirit

Burkie1203 · 20-10-2019 10:19pm

Annabella1 wrote: »

Think the overseas player ban should be removed every 4 years for WC year
This wouldn’t hurt provinces

If guys felt they can go away and still make a RWC squad then it harms the provinces because they lose players

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:21pm

lord quackinton wrote: »

Selling the clubs to their supporters is what should be done
Then remove aid and the foreign based players ban
The provinces should then only pick Irish players with a complete ban on projects

Ireland would develop real strength as players would have an avenue to develop
Without fear of the ban.

None of that made sense

sydthebeat · 20-10-2019 10:25pm

Annabella1 wrote: »

Think the overseas player ban should be removed every 4 years for WC year
This wouldn’t hurt provinces

Theres a real contemporary example of this.

Argentina did this, this year, after picking only jaguares players for the last three years

And now they have players like Diaz bonilla wanting out as pumas picked sanchez and urdepilleta (two foreign based players). ahead of him.

So that's a real example of how your suggestion would hurt our provinces

lord quackinton · 20-10-2019 10:28pm

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

sydthebeat · 20-10-2019 10:30pm

lord quackinton wrote: »

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

So Irish provinces become nursery clubs for bigger European clubs.... Great plan!

Burkie1203 · 20-10-2019 10:32pm

lord quackinton wrote: »

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

Players are moving around the provinces (Cooney McGrath Johnston Jordi Carbery McCarthy for example)

Shipping players out of the country won't solve anything.

Shefwedfan · 20-10-2019 10:32pm

lord quackinton wrote: »

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

Young Irish player, moves to France....played every week and in 3 seasons breaks down with serious injuries....player retires

Yeah excellent idea....

Niallof9 · 20-10-2019 10:34pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Yes they did. The money came from a benefactor and the clue is in the name, the "Ken Wall centre"

The rule came in a year after Sexton left to try and deter it from becoming the norm. Nucifora came here in July 2014. Sexton left 12 months earlier.

It was funded by the irfu and dept of sport as well as the wall family

Dravokivich · 20-10-2019 10:35pm

lord quackinton wrote: »

Selling the clubs to their supporters is what should be done
Then remove aid and the foreign based players ban
The provinces should then only pick Irish players with a complete ban on projects

Ireland would develop real strength as players would have an avenue to develop
Without fear of the ban.

But players do develop. Leinster have had a NIQ 2nd row for God knows how long, still had Ryan and moloney come through, with lots of time for toner when not reserved for ireland.

lord quackinton wrote: »

My suggestions I believe would hurt the provinces initially but I think long term it would help them

The provinces would be constantly developing talent as any player could go abroad at any stage and still represent Ireland.

This already happens and those who go abroad tend to be decent squad fillers. Most of them wont really make the step up. Unless you're thinking of donnacha or zebo. Who are we blocking?

Niallof9 · 20-10-2019 10:36pm

JRant wrote: »

But Schmidt did a lot of the things you're asking for, especially at Leinster.
He picked teams to beat the opposition, regularly changing the lineups.
The players were often on the shoulder looking for the offload or pop pass off the ground.
They played great attacking rugby.

So what happened this past 12 months?

To me it comes down to straight forward staleness. The gameplan was stale, the players were stale and the results followed. I also feel, like many others, that he just didn't get enough young blood into the team to freshen things up. It's very hard to keep a team motivated, especially when certain members of the team are playing like a drain and still getting picked.

I've loved everything he's done for club and country but this past 12 months have been an unmitigated disaster for him.

Leinster yes, not Ireland though. Rarely were there offloads

lord quackinton · 20-10-2019 10:48pm

Of course if your province comes first to you then my ideas are not going to go down well

The Rape of Lucretia · 20-10-2019 10:52pm

Burkie1203 wrote: »

What difference will removing the foreign based player policy make realistically

Lookit, we could have had Zeebs, Madser, and Macken setting our backline alight had we relaxed the rule for the world cup year.

OldRio · 20-10-2019 11:01pm

lord quackinton wrote: »

It is more economical for Wales and England and Scotland to pay the clubs then run the clubs themselves.
Wales and England rfu do not want to take control of the clubs

The irfu is running 4 provinces financially
It is costing millions per annum
What is becoming obvious is that The current set up suits the provinces and hinders Ireland.

You've not really thought this out have you.

jr86 · 20-10-2019 11:07pm

bilston wrote: »

I just hope people give Andy Farrell a chance. I have a feeling that 2020 might prove to be a difficult Six Nations, I also get the sense that some are already quite down on Farrell. England and France away will be tough and Wales at home won't be easy either.

But he needs time and patience. I'd hope it's March 2021 before people start drawing their conclusions on him.

Ireland have a very poor record in year after world cup. 08, 12 and 16 were disasters really. Managed only 2 wins each campaign

Could well be the same next year, as I certainly don't see wins in Paris or London, and Wales is 50/50.

Like yourself I hope he's not too harshly judged on that campaign and march 2021 is a far more realistic timeframe to start making credible assessments

penybont exile · 20-10-2019 11:11pm

jacothelad wrote: »

This is exactly the reason that I couldn't care much about the RWC. It's a lottery up to the last rounds. Get a favourable draw and you are set. If Wales had been playing the ABs today they'd have been annihilated yet they get a semi v. SA while France bow out. I much prefer the rugby played in season, even the much maligned Pro 14.

Japan had their team together for 265+ days, SA and Abs just played their championship. I suspect that Ireland et al would be more competitive if the RWC was a few weeks after the 6Ns.

Sorry but that is bordering on nonsense ..... if Ireland had beaten Japan they'd have played SA ...... if Wales had lost to Oz they'd have played England ..... you reap what you sow ....

Faugheen · 21-10-2019 6:38am

lord quackinton wrote: »

Selling the clubs to their supporters is what should be done
Then remove aid and the foreign based players ban
The provinces should then only pick Irish players with a complete ban on projects

Ireland would develop real strength as players would have an avenue to develop
Without fear of the ban.

As I said. You clearly go to any provincial games if you’re calling for this.

salmocab · 21-10-2019 7:12am

lord quackinton wrote: »

Selling the clubs to their supporters is what should be done
Then remove aid and the foreign based players ban
The provinces should then only pick Irish players with a complete ban on projects

Ireland would develop real strength as players would have an avenue to develop
Without fear of the ban.

You can’t tell the provinces what to do once they are sold, they couldn’t be told to not pick only Irish players. Your plan weakens Ireland even more. I really don’t see what you think would be achieved by dropping the ban on overseas players as it again weakens rugby in Ireland. You seem to have nailed your colours to a mast and are happy to argue wherever the wind blows you.

Burkie1203 · 21-10-2019 7:23am

Niallof9 wrote: »

It was funded by the irfu and dept of sport as well as the wall family

And without the Wall family input it wouldn't happen

Professor Genius · 21-10-2019 8:25am

Sexton will announce international retirement next week

JJJackal · 21-10-2019 8:30am

The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »

Lookit, we could have had Zeebs, Madser, and Macken setting our backline alight had we relaxed the rule for the world cup year.

which of those 3 would have started lol

lord quackinton · 21-10-2019 8:35am

If the provinces are sold to the supporters then what’s the issue I think in fairness that is an idea worth investigating

Also if you brought in some of my ideas the provinces would suffer but Ireland would flourish.

Wales England are proof My ideas have merit

JJJackal · 21-10-2019 8:40am

lord quackinton wrote: »

If the provinces are sold to the supporters then what’s the issue I think in fairness that is an idea worth investigating

Also if you brought in some of my ideas the provinces would suffer but Ireland would flourish.

Wales England are proof My ideas have merit

What if the sold provinces decided to just play southern hemisphere players? You could see that happening in Connacht for example. To allow them get up to challenging for a Heineken Cup faster.

What if none of the 4 provinces played an irish outhalf?

salmocab · 21-10-2019 8:44am

lord quackinton wrote: »

If the provinces are sold to the supporters then what’s the issue I think in fairness that is an idea worth investigating

Also if you brought in some of my ideas the provinces would suffer but Ireland would flourish.

Wales England are proof My ideas have merit

You actually think weaker provinces would make a stronger international team?

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 8:49am

Professor Genius wrote: »

Sexton will announce international retirement next week

?? where you hearing this?

shootermacg · 21-10-2019 8:51am

Nice piece in the indo: https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2019/billy-keane-sexton-is-heartbroken-last-night-he-sent-the-message-gutted-tried-my-best-38614358.html

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 8:56am

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2019/battered-van-der-flier-is-left-to-ponder-another-four-years-of-learnings-38614375.html

Can we please ban this word learnings....

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 8:57am

shootermacg wrote: »

Nice piece in the indo: https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2019/billy-keane-sexton-is-heartbroken-last-night-he-sent-the-message-gutted-tried-my-best-38614358.html

Yeah but according to many on here it's only a game it doesn't matter. This will linger with the man cause it does matter

Nice piece, its true regarding the GAA. But in the end we weren't meant to play New Zealand. The excuses about classes doesn't extend to Japan.

but Eamon Sweeney who is a rugby fan also has two good pieces. And it can't just be dismissed like the paid troll.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/rugby-world-cup-2019/eamonn-sweeney-from-busgate-to-ref-errors-repeated-excuses-show-a-refusal-to-accept-failure-38614379.html

blinding · 21-10-2019 9:03am

Professor Genius wrote: »

Sexton will announce international retirement next week

Not out of the question and perhaps he should . Sexton always considered himself a winner and what has been going on is not that of a winner .

FrancieBrady · 21-10-2019 9:06am

'Not good enough' doesn't cover it, because he simply is good enough and has proved he is good enough.

I find it very hard still to figure out what happened with Johnny on Saturday.

awec · 21-10-2019 9:11am

blinding wrote: »

Not out of the question and perhaps he should . Sexton always considered himself a winner and what has been going on is not that of a winner .

It is out of the question.

Players don't get to announce international retirement. It's not like football, the concept doesn't exist in Irish Rugby. Sexton is contracted to play for Ireland.

Squidgy Black · 21-10-2019 9:17am

A centrally contracted player can't just announce that he'll retire from international rugby and keep playing for his province. He's contracted by the IRFU and not Leinster, the whole point of him signing a central contract is to guarantee he plays for the international team.

salmocab · 21-10-2019 9:22am

If sexton was allowed stop playing for Ireland he’d play more for Leinster meaning Harry Byrne would see less game time and Ross less in the big games. The law of unintended consequences would apply there.

blinding · 21-10-2019 9:24am

awec wrote: »

It is out of the question.

Players don't get to announce international retirement. It's not like football, the concept doesn't exist in Irish Rugby. Sexton is contracted to play for Ireland.

What about if both sides agree that this is the best way forward . Surely the IRFU and Johnny won’t have to go to jail :eek::eek:

blinding · 21-10-2019 9:25am

salmocab wrote: »

If sexton was allowed stop playing for Ireland he’d play more for Leinster meaning Harry Byrne would see less game time and Ross less in the big games. The law of unintended consequences would apply there.

Johnny could go to France to keep Zebo company .

Or he could retire completely from Rugby .

kingofthekong · 21-10-2019 9:26am

FellasFellas wrote: »

The oddest thing I've heard is the anti Welsh brigade from Irish fans. Those clowns on OTB saying before the RWC to Quinlan, 'Who would you rather have win, England or Wales?' and he's humming and hawing and they say, 'Wales would be unbearable if they won it!'.

Wales have shown time and time again, they do not need a thriving club scene to push hard in the international games when it matters. It's all well and good when Leinster can beat Cardiff 60-0 or something, but Wales have shown us how it's done tbh. Gatland is one of the best coaches in the world and there's this anti-Gatland feeling as well because of 2013, but I'd give him the job over Farrell anyday. They've got less players, a smaller population and far worse clubs, yet they out performed us in the RWC when it matters. Credit where credits due.

You'd also have to say that we need to take a leaf from their book in terms of getting players into the system earlier. We can't keep waiting and waiting until we're desperate for players and hoping to unearth a James Ryan or Sexton. Craig Casey, Ronan Kelleher, these kinds of guys need to be brought into the Irish setup early and rewarded for their form. Why should we give Niall Scannell and Sean Cronin the rest of the caps for the next few years, and similarly at 9, the fact that Marmion and McGrath are our 2 & 3 scrum halves is laughable. We cannot compete at the top if this is where we are player wise.

they havent really out performed us at this world cup, Fiji nearly beat them, Uruguay pushed them hard and the should've realistically lost to the French bar a brain fart from Vahamshdytehjfhj - the draw matters a a worldcup and Wales have gotten lucky

awec · 21-10-2019 9:29am

blinding wrote: »

What about if both sides agree that this is the best way forward . Surely the IRFU and Johnny won’t have to go to jail :eek::eek:

IRFU would never agree to it.

The new coach could stop picking Sexton (unlikely), but he'd always have to be available for selection if needed. He couldn't rule himself out to focus on playing for Leinster.

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 9:32am

Lads i don't think Sexton will be retiring. He had a mare but he's spoken of playin till he's forty. He only really started playing regular big time pro at 24 ish , he was in the AIL up to then. Now will we end up with a load of lads doing a besty and then on their big contracts we can't release them or transfer them like in roundball.

Sexton is on what 700k? Plus sponsorship. How will he leave that? Which means he hangs on blocking devolpment etc. Its my point about the central contracts. Andy Farrell won't have wiggle room to drop him because the money men will be like we are paying into a big black hole. Its a flaw in our oh so perfect system

As the money gets larger, but not large enough, it gets harder to walk away i think

By 2023 who knows what Bests will be hanging around.

There are no guarantees.

People would have laughed at you if you suggested Rory Best for 2019 after the 2015 World Cup.

Its a massive flaw in the whole thing.

We were lucky in the past, as harsh as it sounds, that injuries forced many of the clingers on out. Bowe held on to the bitter end and was included in squads but injuries were too much. ROG in fairness did the right thing and it benefited his coaching career.

These lads have missed out on the media reshuffle and many will be working 9-5 so its hard to blame them. In reality are they underpaid for what they are doing? Like certain jobs should the shortness of the career or lack of job security be brought into their bargaining position

Sexton will coach Ireland in the future i think so he'll be ok.

blinding · 21-10-2019 9:32am

awec wrote: »

IRFU would never agree to it.

The new coach could stop picking Sexton (unlikely), but he'd always have to be available for selection if needed. He couldn't rule himself out to focus on playing for Leinster.

Johnny could retire . It would be fierce funny the IRFU dragging Johnny on to the pitch and forcing him to play .:eek::D:eek:

awec · 21-10-2019 9:35am

blinding wrote: »

Johnny could retire . It would be fierce funny the IRFU dragging Johnny on to the pitch and forcing him to play .:eek::D:eek:

He could retire from rugby completely.

But he won't. Contracted for another 2 years, probably the highest paid player, he's not going to give up the cash.

kilns · 21-10-2019 9:38am

There were so many things wrong and it was not just Saturdays game its been coming for the last year and its small things which make the difference despite what people say.

But what was our main strength for so long is our major weakness now and thats the backrow. We just dont have the players in the backrow to make an impact at international level, Stander has much as tries compared to the other dynamic 8s in world rugby is not in that league, as for POM, yes he will do one or two flashy things in a game but will cancel it out with stupidy at times and then the rest of his game is just not up to the standard needed. VdF may be a fine 7 and is young and may offer more with a better supporter act.

But its my belief that is where the real malaise has set in on this Irish team and it has had a knock on effect on the rest of the team

blinding · 21-10-2019 9:38am

awec wrote: »

He could retire from rugby completely.

But he won't. Contracted for another 2 years, probably the highest paid player, he's not going to give up the cash.

Would Johnny take the money under false pretences i.e. Not fit enough to play .

kingofthekong · 21-10-2019 9:39am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Craig Casey is the future but currently isn’t even in the Munster squad, the irfu should step in....if they don’t want to promote him and give him a chance then move him to another province....

Same can be said for all provinces, young players need to play, we have too small a pool to have young talent wasting away

Munster are particularly bad at this, Leinster giving plenty of exposure ...Munster bringing guys like Neil Cronin and Kevin Byrne should be questioned

Also hadnt picked O'sullivan for the south african tour who is easily their most promising backrow player since O'mahony

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 9:43am

Yeah exactly the same thing will happen with Murray. No matter how badly he plays he won't be dropped. Sponsors love him, he's paid huge money. If he was in England under say the RFU the clubs pay him. He plays more yes, but when his form drops thats on the club who pays him. The RFU and England move onto the new better younger player. Not saying Casey is but didn't Murray outpace Strings. There was less media and sponsors back then so would it have happened today?

For me its always been the flaw. How do we drop, or move on well paid under performing players in our system? we've got lucky that many retired or were injured. But its looking like as the players age better and are better looked after this could be less of a thing. The blockage has been fixed by better movement but there is still resistance and bad management as can be seen in certain cases.

Dillane would have been better moving to Munster say, and Adam Byrne is wasting his career being in and out of the Leinster team when he needs more exposure.

salmocab · 21-10-2019 9:44am

blinding wrote: »

Would Johnny take the money under false pretences i.e. Not fit enough to play .

It’s not j3 rugby he can’t tell the coach on Tuesday night his leg is sore.

blinding · 21-10-2019 9:47am

salmocab wrote: »

It’s not j3 rugby he can’t tell the coach on Tuesday night his leg is sore.

Is Johnny’s body in good enough condition to fulfil his contract ?

awec · 21-10-2019 9:52am

blinding wrote: »

Is Johnny’s body in good enough condition to fulfil his contract ?

Yes.

Is his body in good enough condition to play regularly? No, but that's why he is practically a guest player for Leinster at this stage.

The IRFU couldn't give a damn about Sexton playing for Leinster.

salmocab · 21-10-2019 9:52am

blinding wrote: »

Is Johnny’s body in good enough condition to fulfil his contract ?

Very much so I would say

Danthemanhere · 21-10-2019 9:56am

Things were clearly wrong for a while, the Joeball tactics were called out. Some people knew they wouldn't pass the world cup test. Schmidt still had his defenders, even during this tournament when it was clear we were playing a brand of rugby that was way off the pace. Now, these same defenders are throwing out any excuse possible instead of facing up to the reality. Schmidt brought a team to this world cup which was hugely under prepared, who's defence was ripped apart easily by Japan and New Zealand and who's attack was easily closed down. They didn't lay a glove on New Zealand. They were building for the world cup quarter final for a few years apparently but it didn't look like it. We were a rabble. The blame lies with Schmidt. Yet, people in the media and elsewhere are trying to give him a free pass.

Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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