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Would you like to have a basement in your new house?

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  • 12-10-2018 5:19pm
    #1
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭


    I am not talking about excavating after moving in, a la the London brigade.

    I am thinking that new builds here could have the option of a basement area. Boiler room, place to dry clothes tick. Utitily room tick, part of it a chill out area or whatever.

    Seems it can be done in the US and other places, so why not here?

    Anyone know why we don't use the space underground when putting in the foundations?

    Oh cost, yes I know that, and maybe flood tables or something, but otherwise why is there no choice?


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    #2
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,819 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Ireland is damp. Very very damp.

    Basements or half-basements (front door up a few steps) were the norm until the Edwardian era in Dublin but were generally nasty damp hellholes. There have been improvements in tanking technologies but they're still not really the easiest things to keep clean and dry.


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    #3
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    L1011 wrote: »
    Ireland is damp. Very very damp.

    Basements or half-basements (front door up a few steps) were the norm until the Edwardian era in Dublin but were generally nasty damp hellholes. There have been improvements in tanking technologies but they're still not really the easiest things to keep clean and dry.

    Well that was then, this is now.

    Surely with all the current technology available, a basement could be incorporated into a new build if you want it. Never seems to an option though.

    But in fairness I get that it will be costly, like most things in this country.


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    #4
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    If you look at the likes of grand designs ect, in places like London ect they have had to build down for more space.

    The technology is there but its not cheap and you can spend allot from the looks of it on doing it.


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    #5
    Outkast_IRE
    Registered Users Posts: 7,515 ✭✭✭Outkast_IRE


    It is an option , it's just expensive . I have worked in dozens of 1 million euro plus one off houses and only one person bothered .


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    #6
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Calhoun wrote: »
    If you look at the likes of grand designs ect, in places like London ect they have had to build down for more space.

    The technology is there but its not cheap and you can spend allot from the looks of it on doing it.

    Seems that every house in the US has a basement room no matter where they are. Maybe the costs are less there I dunno.

    Great use of space I would think all the same. I would love a basement that had the footprint of my house. Would you?


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    #7
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,819 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Well that was then, this is now.

    Surely with all the current technology available, a basement could be incorporated into a new build if you want it. Never seems to an option though.

    But in fairness I get that it will be costly, like most things in this country.

    It would need to be included from planning onwards so its not like a normal option; and because it is so costly nobody really bothers.

    As housing costs increase I wouldn't be surprised if they re-surface for houses in inner suburbs of cities as you can reduce the footprint of the house and increase site density. Would allow people who do not want an apartment to get something closer to apartment density basically. That said, the normal private house built with them in Ireland in the past, and elsewhere now is usually two floors - Irish high density houses are already three floors overground as it is.


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    #8
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Engineering and construction wise, there is no issue at all and it can be done no problem. Damp, high water tables etc can all be dealt with.

    The reason is cost and there simply would not be a market for building houses that have basements.

    Some technical issues that need to be dealt with are excavation, and dealing with high water tables.

    Excavation. Firstly there will be a lot more soil to dispose of.. not to mind the extra hassle if you have to deal with breaking out rock or boulders. All this costs money.
    Then the temporary works needed to construct basements are significant. For large buildings the piles holding the excavation open are typically part of the structure and are left in place. However in a house, leaving piles in place would not be a very appropriate method I think. That means piles must be driven, the basement walls built and then the piles removed and the excavation backfilled against the walls. All this would be *very* expensive.

    Water tables. The complication here is that a basement just built and sitting in the ground can actually float like a cork if the water table is high. There are 2 ways around this. 1. Anchor piles which tie the structure down to the underlying soul or rock. 2. Simply adding weight to the structure by making everything very think and heavy to cancel our any buoyancy force. Again all this is very expensive.


    So it is just not worth the expense to do this for a house. It would be far too expensive for the sake of a utility room or a hang out area. Makes more practical sense and would be far, far cheaper to just build a bigger house.


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    #9
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Engineering and construction wise, there is no issue at all and it can be done no problem. Damp, high water tables etc can all be dealt with.

    The reason is cost and there simply would not be a market for building houses that have basements.

    Some technical issues that need to be dealt with are excavation, and dealing with high water tables.

    Excavation. Firstly there will be a lot more soil to dispose of.. not to mind the extra hassle if you have to deal with breaking out rock or boulders. All this costs money.
    Then the temporary works needed to construct basements are significant. For large buildings the piles holding the excavation open are typically part of the structure and are left in place. However in a house, leaving piles in place would not be a very appropriate method I think. That means piles must be driven, the basement walls built and then the piles removed and the excavation backfilled against the walls. All this would be *very* expensive.

    Water tables. The complication here is that a basement just built and sitting in the ground can actually float like a cork if the water table is high. There are 2 ways around this. 1. Anchor piles which tie the structure down to the underlying soul or rock. 2. Simply adding weight to the structure by making everything very think and heavy to cancel our any buoyancy force. Again all this is very expensive.


    So it is just not worth the expense to do this for a house. It would be far too expensive for the sake of a utility room or a hang out area. Makes more practical sense and would be far, far cheaper to just build a bigger house.

    Thanks for that information, very interesting.

    I still wonder why homes in the US and Canada for example seem to all have basements no matter where they are!


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    #10
    runawaybishop
    Registered Users Posts: 9,500 ✭✭✭runawaybishop


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Thanks for that information, very interesting.

    I still wonder why homes in the US and Canada for example seem to all have basements no matter where they are!

    Some states they would be very unusual. It depends on the climate and soiltype.


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    #11
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    I'd also add that I'm not sure where domestic basements would stand from a building regulations pov, specifically with respect to part b which is fire safety. Any habitable room needs to have adequate means of escape which basically means a second exit is needed - again this is another expense. I'm not an expert on part b so I am open to correction here.
    Also, ventilating a basement is not as straightforward as for a regular basic house.
    Again, it can all be done - it's just it costs more. Much more.

    Essentially, is there anything that you cannot do in a regular room that would justify the additional hassle and cost of a basement? No. Not really.

    The additional cost might be justified in places like London where land prices are stupendous and where there would be a restriction on building upwards. Eg in an area of period houses or protected structures you might not get planning to build an extra floor on your house so s basement might be an option. However, you'd have to satisfy the planners that constructing your basement wouldn't affect or damage adjacent buildings. That would mean engaging a geotechnical engineering specialist to design and supervise construction at, you guessed it, a significant cost.



    In the usa they have basements because most are quite old and they are usually built as storm shelters. We don't need that.
    Also, American houses are of mind bogglingly flimsy construction. Their building standards are far, far less stringent than in the EU in every respect. Essentially, they can get away with building to a lower standard so it costs less for them to do it.

    And part of the need for storm shelters is that many homes are of flimsy timber frame construction and cannot withstand the storms. Sure often on TV you see whole houses simply blowing off in the wind add if they were caravans.


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    #12
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Also, American houses are of mind bogglingly flimsy construction. Their building standards are far, far less stringent than in the EU in every respect. Essentially, they can get away with building to a lower standard so it costs less for them to do it.
    Pretty much every house in Germany has a basement and you can't level the building standards argument against them. Most modern German houses make Irish ones look like garden sheds by comparison.

    Generally they're not habitable rooms anyway, they're used for storage mainly.


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    #13
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Great use of space I would think all the same. I would love a basement that had the footprint of my house. Would you?
    I certainly would, they're a great idea. Great for storage purposes, much handier than an attic for storing all your old junk, plus great for food storage as they're generally unheated. Most German houses have their heating systems installed in the basements too which means they're able to put in much beefier boilers and hot water storage systems without being constrained to a small metal box in the kitchen.


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    #14
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Perhaps. I certainly know in the USA energy conservation is basically an alien concept. Insulation is minimal. Consequently they use heating and ac to an alarming rate. Energy is cheaper than insulation is basically the cause.


    Yes they may be intended mainly as storage or utility. But the op would plan to use it as a hang out or recreational area of some form. That use makes it a habitable room so it would need to meet the relevant standards - it would have to be heated, ventilated, fire safety, and access requirements such as a proper stairs would all apply. On the last point, an open tread stairs or laddery type set up like out of the movies isn't an option because it would not be acceptable for building regs and safety in design reasons.


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    #15
    no.8
    Registered Users Posts: 778 ✭✭✭no.8


    Spanish Eyes wrote:
    I still wonder why homes in the US and Canada for example seem to all have basements no matter where they are!


    They're and in many European countries as well. Expensive but always Incorporated. Certainly makes a massive difference in terms of storage space/integrated garage etc


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    #16
    jester77
    Registered Users Posts: 11,262 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    Don't know how people survive without a basement, they are a great place for storing unsightly or loud things and keeping the house neat and tidy.

    I've utility room with washer and dryer, a room with a freezer and shelves for storing food, wine and crates of drinks, a room with heating, water and ventilation system, a room with server rack, another with shelves for tools and random stuff from around the house and a small gym with power rack and weights.


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    #17
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Perhaps. I certainly know in the USA energy conservation is basically an alien concept. Insulation is minimal. Consequently they use heating and ac to an alarming rate. Energy is cheaper than insulation is basically the cause.

    Which makes you wonder why we're so gungho here for carbon taxes and high building specs, pushing up the costs of construction. Fuel is expensive and likely to get more so, but a whole heap of that extra cost is Tax.


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    #18
    PokeHerKing
    Registered Users Posts: 4,278 ✭✭✭PokeHerKing


    TheBoyConor wrote:
    And part of the need for storm shelters is that many homes are of flimsy timber frame construction and cannot withstand the storms. Sure often on TV you see whole houses simply blowing off in the wind add if they were caravans.

    To be fair they get hurricanes and tornadoes. Not just a typical bit of wind.


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    #19
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Fair enough of it was an existing building.
    But if you were embarking upon a new build all of that can be done in a regular ground floor or upper room of appropriate construction at far less cost. Unless you were constrained by space on the site and from adding another floor there would be no reason to build a basement outside of the novelty factor and one's willingness to carry the extra cost which, for a one of house, would be a very significant portion of the overall construction cost.






    Because in Europe we recognise that a) fossil fuels are finite and declining in quantity and are future proofing ourselves by striving to minimise their use in the short term and weaning ourselves off them in the long term and b) we recognise the grave threat to the health of the plant posed by their uncontrolled and wanton use.

    The USA, as a nation, has little qualms in this regard and are happy to stick their head in the sand and see the world rot before their eyes as long as they can have their guns and gas guzzlers.
    Just look at what they, in partnership with Canada, are allowing to happen with the extraction of tar sands in Canada - wholesale destruction of ENORMOUS swathes of untouched tundra habitat with piss poor token efforts at habitat remediation in the exhausted areas that will take hundreds if not thousands of years to fully recover. All in the name of 10c off their 3,8 litres of gaaaaaz in Walmart.

    Anyway, I have gone way way off topic


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    #20
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    jester77 wrote: »
    Don't know how people survive without a basement, they are a great place for storing unsightly or loud things and keeping the house neat and tidy.

    I've utility room with washer and dryer, a room with a freezer and shelves for storing food, wine and crates of drinks, a room with heating, water and ventilation system, a room with server rack, another with shelves for tools and random stuff from around the house and a small gym with power rack and weights.

    You are speaking my language. Where are you if you don't mind me asking. No problems if you don't want to say.


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    #21
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Fair enough of it was an existing building.
    But if you were embarking upon a new build all of that can be done in a regular ground floor or upper room of appropriate construction at far less cost. Unless you were constrained by space on the site and from adding another floor there would be no reason to build a basement outside of the novelty factor and one's willingness to carry the extra cost which, for a one of house, would be a very significant portion of the overall construction cost.






    Because in Europe we recognise that a) fossil fuels are finite and declining in quantity and are future proofing ourselves by striving to minimise their use in the short term and weaning ourselves off them in the long term and b) we recognise the grave threat to the health of the plant posed by their uncontrolled and wanton use.

    The USA, as a nation, has little qualms in this regard and are happy to stick their head in the sand and see the world rot before their eyes as long as they can have their guns and gas guzzlers.
    Just look at what they, in partnership with Canada, are allowing to happen with the extraction of tar sands in Canada - wholesale destruction of ENORMOUS swathes of untouched tundra habitat with piss poor token efforts at habitat remediation in the exhausted areas that will take hundreds if not thousands of years to fully recover. All in the name of 10c off their 3,8 litres of gaaaaaz in Walmart.

    Anyway, I have gone way way off topic

    You do know that CO2 emissions in Europe have always been rising and have never fallen right?


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    #22
    Pkiernan
    Registered Users Posts: 4,315 ✭✭✭Pkiernan


    TheBoyConor wrote: »
    Fair enough of it was an existing building.
    But if you were embarking upon a new build all of that can be done in a regular ground floor or upper room of appropriate construction at far less cost. Unless you were constrained by space on the site and from adding another floor there would be no reason to build a basement outside of the novelty factor and one's willingness to carry the extra cost which, for a one of house, would be a very significant portion of the overall construction cost.






    Because in Europe we recognise that a) fossil fuels are finite and declining in quantity and are future proofing ourselves by striving to minimise their use in the short term and weaning ourselves off them in the long term and b) we recognise the grave threat to the health of the plant posed by their uncontrolled and wanton use.

    The USA, as a nation, has little qualms in this regard and are happy to stick their head in the sand and see the world rot before their eyes as long as they can have their guns and gas guzzlers.
    Just look at what they, in partnership with Canada, are allowing to happen with the extraction of tar sands in Canada - wholesale destruction of ENORMOUS swathes of untouched tundra habitat with piss poor token efforts at habitat remediation in the exhausted areas that will take hundreds if not thousands of years to fully recover. All in the name of 10c off their 3,8 litres of gaaaaaz in Walmart.

    Anyway, I have gone way way off topic

    You do know that CO2 emissions in Europe have always been rising and have never fallen right?


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    #23
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Viewed a house during the summer. It had a basement.
    It needed a sump and pumping system in case of flooding. A dehumidifier was on 24/7.
    It was built by Americans about 20 years ago.


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    #24
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Emory Beautiful Vinyl wrote: »
    Viewed a house during the summer. It had a basement.
    It needed a sump and pumping system in case of flooding. A dehumidifier was on 24/7.
    It was built by Americans about 20 years ago.
    Was this in Ireland? If so it was built by Irish Celtic tiger era builders, so I'm not surprised.


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    #25
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    Pkiernan wrote:
    You do know that CO2 emissions in Europe have always been rising and have never fallen right?


    Yes but at the very least we are attempting to exercise some kind of control and ideally to reduce emissions.

    The USA as an entity could not care less and it's leader thinks climate change is a hoax.


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    #26
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Pkiernan wrote: »
    You do know that CO2 emissions in Europe have always been rising and have never fallen right?

    Now now logic getting in the way of smug self righteousness.


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    #27
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Emory Beautiful Vinyl wrote: »
    Viewed a house during the summer. It had a basement.
    It needed a sump and pumping system in case of flooding. A dehumidifier was on 24/7.
    It was built by Americans about 20 years ago.

    Very vague information there. Could you elaborate. i.e what country, near a flood plain, near a hurricane area with sea surges, etc. Thanks.

    Odd if it is in ROI and built by Americans. Sorry if I am totally wrong about that!


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    #28
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,425 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Odd if it is in ROI and built by Americans. Sorry if I am totally wrong about that!
    I assumed they meant it was a house built for Americans to their design, could be wrong too.


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    #29
    0lddog
    Registered Users Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭0lddog


    Outkast_IRE wrote: »
    It is an option , it's just expensive . I have worked in dozens of 1 million euro plus one off houses and only one person bothered .


    That reminds me, the one multimillion domestic new build that I know of has a basement. Its built several years now. AFAIK there are still major issues with the tanking. Not pretty.


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    #30
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Thanks for all the replies so far, all very interesting.

    I personally would LOVE a basement on the footprint of my house. So much potential for many things. But sigh..


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    #31
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,899 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    0lddog wrote: »
    That reminds me, the one multimillion domestic new build that I know of has a basement. Its built several years now. AFAIK there are still major issues with the tanking. Not pretty.

    Now come on, if someone is prepared to pay for a multimillion cost house, surely they will engage the proper architects/surveyors/engineers etc. to make sure everything will be ok, including a basement.

    Hope the builders/arch/surveyors have not been sued.


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