How we think and talk about reducing car use in cities

Stephen15 · 30-07-2018 8:43pm

I do see people with these large child carriers on their bikes which can two to four children. That kind of thing is well in and good in the Netherlands or Denmark where there is good cycling infrastructure which don't get me wrong I'm all in for but I have to say I think here in Ireland they leave the children very vulnerable on our narrow roads with cars, buses and trucks all competing for road space.

LeChienMefiant · 30-07-2018 8:50pm

Is it completely unrealistic to live within walking distance of creche or school? I.e. 15 to 20 minute walk? When kids are older then can skoot. Seems crazy that kids need to be driven. With both partners working it seems impractical for creche/school to be too far from home. Maybe I'm just lucky.

Cuddlesworth · 30-07-2018 9:19pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is this really a significant factor in our parking issues? The total number of spaces for civil servants are relatively modest, given the overall number of staff 37k nationwide. DCC have something like 400-500 spaces at Wood Quay, and over 10k staff, so it doesn't like a huge problem to me.

http://www.thejournal.ie/parking-levy-department-of-finance-budget-public-service-opw-427408-Apr2012/

I'm a bit curious about the wording of the article. They are very clear that they "lease" 3,291 spaces in Dublin. Then there is the tidbit that spaces included in the building lease are not included in the above. And I guess that parking spaces in government owned non-leased buildings are again not included.

That is very misleading.

Dravokivich · 30-07-2018 9:35pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You said Friday night, I would have expected you picked up Saturday!!

I used Castleknock because of gates to park.....the park should be closed ASAP to all traffic apart from PT

I lived in the area from 2008 to 2015. Closing those gates will not address the congestion generated by locals.

Shefwedfan · 30-07-2018 9:38pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

I lived in the area from 2008 to 2015. Closing those gates will not address the congestion generated by locals.

I love the Irish people's "can do" attitude....

Dravokivich · 30-07-2018 9:40pm

monument wrote: »

This is the point of the thread -- not current conditions alone but how we think of the move away from current conditions.

But even in the current condition a growing number of people cycle with their children to creche or school. With improved conditions more and more people will accept the option.

FYI I'm not making any recommendations for you personally -- I'm looking at the wider picture.

Whenever I've mentioned it, I've always accepted my commute is an obscure one. I've never expected things to be changed for me. But I'll always reference my obscure commute here because too often people who comment on these threads forget that some don't genuinely have alternatives and act like they've never been considered. I've only been driving a year. I know all too well how unsuitable the public transport options are for a large number of commuters. And I find it a bit annoying when some can see someones "need" to drive as a hinderence because of some illthought opinion that we should not be driving at all, especially within the M50.

Dravokivich · 30-07-2018 9:42pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I love the Irish people's "can do" attitude....

The issue isn't can do. You want it, go seek it out with your council. They'll survey and find most of it goes from the Phoenix park, towards castelknock village, but turns off before hand towards the n3. Everything else is local traffic and congestion. So what will closing the gates fix?

Dravokivich · 30-07-2018 9:46pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Is it completely unrealistic to live within walking distance of creche or school? I.e. 15 to 20 minute walk? When kids are older then can skoot. Seems crazy that kids need to be driven. With both partners working it seems impractical for creche/school to be too far from home. Maybe I'm just lucky.

You're asking a question about a different issue there. We commute from where we can live. And there's a lot of moving around when it comes to renting. You can try to stay in the same area, but when school/creche and work are in different directions, you aren't going to lose time by walking.

Shefwedfan · 30-07-2018 9:47pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Whenever I've mentioned it, I've always accepted my commute is an obscure one. I've never expected things to be changed for me. But I'll always reference my obscure commute here because too often people who comment on these threads forget that some don't genuinely have alternatives and act like they've never been considered. I've only been driving a year. I know all too well how unsuitable the public transport options are for a large number of commuters. And I find it a bit annoying when some can see someones "need" to drive as a hinderence because of some illthought opinion that we should not be driving at all, especially within the M50.

Just out of interest, what are the hazards?

Dravokivich · 30-07-2018 9:50pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Just out of interest, what are the hazards?

Small roads, poorly lit, blind corners with short visibility ahead of you. And people have a tendency to speed excessively on those roads too.

prinzeugen · 31-07-2018 1:11am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Majority of the task's listed above do not require a car. Are you really telling me that if a city centre is blocked off that no trademan in Ireland would ever go near it again?

Please explain why lawyers need a car? also a doctor going to a hospital needs a car for what reason? maybe an emergency GP but they would travel under emergency service banner. Also seriously a hairdresser? :P

I won't even ask why a debt collector needs a car? also how you would come up with that as a job that needs to be considered for a public transport discussion. Does he/she need to carry their work tools?

For the few that might require a car then zero emission would be a requirement.

Cars are not evil. It is the people driving them that are just lazy. It is easier to walk out the door and jump into a car, then moan rest of day about the traffic.

It is harder to use imagination and say I can get to work/etc via bus/train/and God help us all a bicycle.

If you really can think of a zillion other things and are a public transport advocate as you claim, think of those zillion things and write beside them why it can't be done on public transport? I bet I could give a zillion simple solutions to majority of them

You must not have seen the post from a plumber a good while back about how his company is no longer doing jobs in the city centre. Its costing them huge amounts of money in wasted time.

There are regulations on how certain items can be transported. Pesticides, medicine etc must be kept in secure storage. How can someone do that on PT or a bike?

Hairdressers do visit multiple elderly clients all over the city. Car lets them do more than PT ever could.

Its very easy to say these jobs could be done from a push bike (this is a thinly veiled pro cycling thread), but the reality is these jobs cant be done without a car/van.

Laws/regulations would not allow it in some cases and it would mean people/business would pay more or would be unable to get the service.

Stephen15 · 31-07-2018 2:05am

prinzeugen wrote: »

You must not have seen the post from a plumber a good while back about how his company is no longer doing jobs in the city centre. Its costing them huge amounts of money in wasted time.

One man's loss would be another man's gain if one plumber won't do CC another one can and if he's the only one who will he can inflate his prices. How do you think Amsterdam, Copenhagen or as an extremely exaggerated example Venice manage for plumbers. Do they all have no water in their taps?

There are regulations on how certain items can be transported. Pesticides, medicine etc must be kept in secure storage. How can someone do that on PT or a bike?

These deliveries could be done by night or with special permission.

Hairdressers do visit multiple elderly clients all over the city. Car lets them do more than PT ever could.

Again how is this managed in the cities I have mentioned. I know someone who actually is a hairdresser who does home visits. She carries an easily transportable bag. There isin't really a whole lot of equipment apart from water spray gun, scissors, rollars (in some cases) and colour/lotions/hairspray (vary by client). All easily transportable in a relatively small bag or backpack

Its very easy to say these jobs could be done from a push bike (this is a thinly veiled pro cycling thread), but the reality is these jobs cant be done without a car/van.

Again don't think anyone is suggesting all deliveries should be all done by bike but they can be done at quieter times or at weekends etc. Also they could be limited to certain times.

Laws/regulations would not allow it in some cases and it would mean people/business would pay more or would be unable to get the service.

Tbh in most cities the prices in the city centre are higher than in the suburbs that can be already here in Dublin look at a rent as a prime example it gets cheaper the further away from the city centre.

troyzer · 31-07-2018 7:41am

cgcsb wrote: »

Your return journey by car from Ballsbridge to Lucan at circa 15:00 certainly takes you more than half an hour. Actually it's quite likely that with bus connects fully implemented, a C and B bus will get you there in under 40 mins.

It's slightly quicker going into the city centre than out. But yeah, it's about 35-40 depending on traffic coming back out again. If a bus can match it, I'll go for it. But it can't at the moment. It takes twice as long. Which is why I'm not going to use it.

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Luas and Ryanair are both run by companies that want to make money

Anything in Ireland that is propped up by the government is a disaster....it needs to be run by a company that can drive a profit

PT could offer the best service in the World tomorrow,....you would still not get Irish people to use it because the root of the problem is most people are lazy. It is easier to walk out the door and jump into a car then walk 5 mins up the road and get onto a bus.......you even have an app now which tell you exactly when the bus will arrive to stop so you dont have to stand around and still people dont use it....

The only way to move people onto PT is to hit their pockets. Simple as that, otherwise we will be having this discussion in 30 years time and nothing will have changed.

The Luas is publicly owned with government set fares. It may be privately operated but it's closer to Dublin Bus than Ryanair. My point was that building a Luas to a place like Dundrum did far more to get people out of their cars then for example if they had turned the all of the roads from Dundrum into single lane.

There will always be lazy people, you're right. And in that case, I'm not opposed to a congestion charge. But London has one of the best public transport systems in the world, ours is awful. It's not really the same thing. You don't really have any excuse not to use PT in London.

cgcsb wrote: »

You can't have one without the other in practice. Improved public transport = more road space for buses = less roadspace for cars.

You have to do both at once. You can't just ban cars or put a tax on them without providing an alternative. I'm not saying you can't have a delay. People are reasonable, they'll accept a few years of inconvinience if it means public transport improvements like when the City Centre was a building site to get the Luas cross city up and running. But to tell someone like me with no DART, Luas, train station or any plans to provide these that from now on I'm banned from using my car is ridiculously unfair. Quid pro quo Clarice.

I actually agree with you that the end goal is to get all of the cars off the road. This would be amazing. But until you have viable alternatives, it's not possible. Most cities don't have public transport systems almost entirely reliant on roads either. So while less cars = more roadspace for buses is undoubtedly true, it shouldn't be the be all and end all of public transport. We shouldn't be so heavily reliant on buses which in any other city I've been in have acted mostly as feeders or orbitals for the primary transportation which is always some type of light or heavy rail.

The elephant in the room here is that urban sprawl and lack of high rise buildings makes Dublin worse than most cities and the population density isn't high enough to support a metro throughout the city.

The J Stands for Jay · 31-07-2018 8:02am

orangerhyme wrote: »

It costs approximately 10,000 a year to own a car.

Where are you getting these numbers from? I only paid 10k for my car.

Nonsense figures from the AA. No sign of the €200 tax band, ridiculously high insurance costs...Nonsense figures from the AA. No sign of the €200 tax band, ridiculously high insurance costs, cost of capital should be less than 0.5% based on current interest rates.

LeChienMefiant · 31-07-2018 8:25am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Its very easy to say these jobs could be done from a push bike (this is a thinly veiled pro cycling thread), but the reality is these jobs cant be done without a car/van.

It's also a pro-city living thread for those that work and/or live in the city. Not everyone that wants to reduce private car traffic in the city is pro bicycle. Although if people concentrated more on their shared interests than the issues that divide them then maybe cyclists and others could achieve a lot more.

Car sharing schemes have huge potential to change the nature of car ownership and usage. It would be much more efficient for the hairdresser or whoever doing a house call to use a shared car. Some of the larger estate agencies have their own shared/pool cars now for staff to attend viewings.

McGaggs wrote: »

Where are you getting these numbers from? I only paid 10k for my car.

Nonsense figures from the AA. No sign of the €200 tax band, ridiculously high insurance costs...Nonsense figures from the AA. No sign of the €200 tax band, ridiculously high insurance costs, cost of capital should be less than 0.5% based on current interest rates.

€10k would quickly be run up between capital cost, servicing, tolls, parking, fuel, tax, insurance, tyres, NCT, etc. Would you say you're low, medium or high on the scale of expenditure?

Shefwedfan · 31-07-2018 8:47am

prinzeugen wrote: »

You must not have seen the post from a plumber a good while back about how his company is no longer doing jobs in the city centre. Its costing them huge amounts of money in wasted time.

There are regulations on how certain items can be transported. Pesticides, medicine etc must be kept in secure storage. How can someone do that on PT or a bike?

Hairdressers do visit multiple elderly clients all over the city. Car lets them do more than PT ever could.

Its very easy to say these jobs could be done from a push bike (this is a thinly veiled pro cycling thread), but the reality is these jobs cant be done without a car/van.

Laws/regulations would not allow it in some cases and it would mean people/business would pay more or would be unable to get the service.

So your trying to say a plumber now is using pesticides? If one plumber wont service the city centre I know the next guy will buy an electric van and make a killing covering that area.

As already mentioned the medicines would be under emergency services. Also you do realize a lot of medicines are transferred using motorbikes for speed?

Hairdressers can bring everything in a small carry bag. Next you will be trying to tell me they have to carry around a hair dressers chair

This has nothing to do with bicycle. It is public transport. Bicycle/train/taxi/bux/luas etc etc etc

Please tell me the laws/regulations that would stop people using public transport?

You can dig and dig and yes you will find some requirements for vehicles to travel into city centre.....

You can buy an electric van/car/motorbikes today....some of the Dublin city councils have purchased them and use them now.

Shefwedfan · 31-07-2018 8:50am

McGaggs wrote: »

Where are you getting these numbers from? I only paid 10k for my car.

Nonsense figures from the AA. No sign of the €200 tax band, ridiculously high insurance costs...Nonsense figures from the AA. No sign of the €200 tax band, ridiculously high insurance costs, cost of capital should be less than 0.5% based on current interest rates.

Depreciation

Everyone forgets that little nugget. You lose at least 4k per year even if you never drive it

LeChienMefiant · 31-07-2018 8:57am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Depreciation

Everyone forgets that little nugget. You lose at least 4k per year even if you never drive it

Not if he/she paid 10k for the car, most of the depreciation will have been taken by the prior owners. To buy a car for 10k you're reliant on the used car market. Most of the depreciation has already happened. Hence I would expect such an owner to be on the lower end of the expenditure scale.

Shefwedfan · 31-07-2018 8:59am

Dravokivich wrote: »

Small roads, poorly lit, blind corners with short visibility ahead of you. And people have a tendency to speed excessively on those roads too.

I live in area with no street lights :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

Ever heard of a bicycle light?

Also every part of Dublin people tend to speed excessively. In the middle of housing estates you see gobsh*ts doing 100km an hour

Shefwedfan · 31-07-2018 9:00am

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

Not if he/she paid 10k for the car, most of the depreciation will have been taken by the prior owners. To buy a car for 10k you're reliant on the used car market. Most of the depreciation has already happened. Hence I would expect such an owner to be on the lower end of the expenditure scale.

So you buy a car for 10k this year and sell it next year for 10k? I must try that one out

LeChienMefiant · 31-07-2018 9:03am

Shefwedfan wrote: »

So you buy a car for 10k this year and sell it next year for 10k? I must try that one out

No, but is that car going to disintegrate after 2.5 years?

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Everyone forgets that little nugget. You lose at least 4k per year even if you never drive it

magicbastarder · 31-07-2018 9:17am

i would genuinely love to see the source for their estimate that the *average* for garage, parking and 'miscellaneous' expenses is over €4k per year.

troyzer · 31-07-2018 9:28am

Depreciation works on an inverse log basis. LeChienMefiant isn't wrong, the older the car you buy, the cheaper it is and the less it's going to depreciate.

I bought my car last year for two grand, obviously it can't lose five grand in value. I'd probably get €1,500 for it now.

So if we spread the cost and depcreciation over this year and last year, it's costing me about €1,250 a year. I spend about €30 a week on petrol, so another €1,500 a year. And my insurance is quite high at €2,000 third party.

So a very rough guesstimate is that my car costs around €4,750 a year. Yes, this was a particularly cheap car. But next year my car insurance will be much cheaper. I'll have crossed the 25 year old mark, take off the N plates and have one year's NCB (hopefully). The cost of the car and the depreciation only gets cheaper on an annualised basis the longer I keep it as well.

But to be fair, I do have to NCT it annually which I also get the car serviced in advance for. I've had one mechanical error so far (yesterday actually) and it cost €50 to fix. So call it €250 for NCT and maintenance. We're at pretty much bang on €5,000 a year and other than the ocassional toll, that's pretty much all of the cost of my car. Throw in an extra €80 or so a year I spend on the AA.

Absolutely nowhere near €10k and these are really, really conservative figures. In reality, this depreciation isn't actually costing me money,

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 9:33am

troyzer wrote: »

It's slightly quicker going into the city centre than out. But yeah, it's about 35-40 depending on traffic coming back out again. If a bus can match it, I'll go for it. But it can't at the moment. It takes twice as long. Which is why I'm not going to use it.

A C-B bus journey this time next year may well get you there in under 40 and certainly will after the infrastructure improvements are done. The coming North Quays car ban will certainly knock considerable time off that bus journey.

troyzer wrote: »

You have to do both at once. You can't just ban cars or put a tax on them without providing an alternative.

I certainly wouldn't be advocating a car ban as far out as Ballsbridge, or even Lucan any time in the foreseeable

troyzer wrote: »

The elephant in the room here is that urban sprawl and lack of high rise buildings makes Dublin worse than most cities and the population density isn't high enough to support a metro throughout the city.

While sprawl is a problem due to corruption, it's actually an Irish Times myth that Dublin lacks density. Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Oslo are not more Densely populated than Dublin. Dublin doesn't have a metro because of our parochial society and years of government that followed DeValera's ruralisation policy. We also have a cultural hang up whereby we can only make comparisons between ourselves and the UK (where PT is a disaster). Things are changing though FAST.

no.8 · 31-07-2018 9:37am

dr.fuzzenstein wrote:

If I go to Bargaintown, can I bring a bed, a wardrobe and three piece suite on the bus with me?

Pathetic

no.8 · 31-07-2018 9:52am

JayZeus wrote:

If there were candidates running on a specifically pro-motorist manifesto, theyâ€™d already win my vote each and every election.

Sorry but that parish-pump mentality is ridiculously outdated. How about you just make your own mind up and go with that, rather than raise the pitch fork.

troyzer · 31-07-2018 9:56am

cgcsb wrote: »

A C-B bus journey this time next year may well get you there in under 40 and certainly will after the infrastructure improvements are done. The coming North Quays car ban will certainly knock considerable time off that bus journey.

I certainly wouldn't be advocating a car ban as far out as Ballsbridge, or even Lucan any time in the foreseeable

While sprawl is a problem due to corruption, it's actually an Irish Times myth that Dublin lacks density. Amsterdam, Copenhagen and Oslo are not more Densely populated than Dublin. Dublin doesn't have a metro because of our parochial society and years of government that followed DeValera's ruralisation policy. We also have a cultural hang up whereby we can only make comparisons between ourselves and the UK (where PT is a disaster). Things are changing though FAST.

If it can get me there in under 40 minutes, sign me up. It would suit me better anyway. I miss good public transport like I had in Australia, I had so much time to just read, listen to music and get ready for the day. I hate sitting in traffic and getting annoyed but I'd rather do that then lose an extra two hours a day to commuting.

If you ban cars in the city centre then they'll be forced onto the canals and south circular road which would blow up my commute and be just as bad as a ban for me as well.

Fair point on the population density. I suppose it isn't really fair to compare Dublin's density to a city like Paris or Brussels. Oslo is probably a better model because it's actually significantly less densely populated than Dublin. My girlfriend just got back, she said it was class. Especially the "Luas".

*Apparentely Amsterdam's metro area is nearly four times as densely populated as Dublin's. I think the issue isn't the city centre itself but rather how quickly the city transitions into suburbs. People commute from as far as Navan, Drogheda, Athy and Arklow into Dublin and have to be taken into account when calculating the true population density.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 10:00am

troyzer wrote: »

If you ban cars in the city centre then they'll be forced onto the canals and south circular road which would blow up my commute and be just as bad as a ban for me as well.

It doesn't work that way, people will go with the most convenient option, a car ban from the north quays for example won't just move those cars to the canal, it'll mean those people trying to get to the East of the city centre can now do so faster by bus.

no.8 · 31-07-2018 10:02am

Agreed. Once very good additional example is Basel. Small-ish, but busy and complex city geographically with a fantastic road system (roads sunk under Street level). Still has congestion issues mind you, but removing all those cars from main streets has cleared up roads for an extensive tram network and safe and busy cycling lanes.

It seems like our town planers are afraid to go underground here (unless there is a river facing us and they have serious obligations to do so - port tunnel). E.g. No basements for storage rooms in apartment blocks, few underpasses, underground car parks for residential areas being rare enough. This 2D mentally is not helping.

*PS im not advocating new roads top supplement the M50, rather roads which could allow the ones on surface level to be significantly relieved from congestion or blocked to private cars. Same goes for Cork and Galway. It is expensive yes, but so is the unsung cost of congestion

troyzer · 31-07-2018 10:06am

cgcsb wrote: »

It doesn't work that way, people will go with the most convenient option, a car ban from the north quays for example won't just move those cars to the canal, it'll mean those people trying to get to the East of the city centre can now do so faster by bus.

A lot of them will but are you saying my commute would be completely unaffected by a ban on city centre traffic? Come on. It'll definitely be affected.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 10:46am

troyzer wrote: »

A lot of them will but are you saying my commute would be completely unaffected by a ban on city centre traffic? Come on. It'll definitely be affected.

Your commute by car maybe negatively affected but the buses carrying many more people will move a lot faster, and your commute along the canal to Ballsbridge will probably be replaced by a faster B-C bus journey

Bray Head · 31-07-2018 11:16am

no.8 wrote: »

It seems like our town planers are afraid to go underground here (unless there is a river facing us and they have serious obligations to do so - port tunnel). E.g. No basements for storage rooms in apartment blocks, few underpasses, underground car parks for residential areas being rare enough. This 2D mentally is not helping.

Agreed. Some kind of north-south road tunnel (Say Drumcondra to Donnybrook) would cater for a lot of cross-city traffic and would be complementary to putting a congestion charge in place.

troyzer · 31-07-2018 11:25am

cgcsb wrote: »

Your commute by car maybe negatively affected but the buses carrying many more people will move a lot faster, and your commute along the canal to Ballsbridge will probably be replaced by a faster B-C bus journey

And as I've said, if it is replaced by a bus I'd be happy to use it. But until it is, I remain sceptical.

*Yeah, just took a look there. The C bus gets me into Grand Canal which is about a ten minute walk to work. How can you tell how long the C bus will actually take though? That's the kicker. At least in this scenario the bus looks like it'll be more frequent and I won't have to change buses like I do currently. That's where all of the time is lost.

monument · 31-07-2018 11:36am

troyzer wrote: »

And as I've said, if it is replaced by a bus I'd be happy to use it. But until it is, I remain sceptical.

*Yeah, just took a look there. The C bus gets me into Grand Canal which is about a ten minute walk to work. How can you tell how long the C bus will actually take though? That's the kicker. At least in this scenario the bus looks like it'll be more frequent and I won't have to change buses like I do currently. That's where all of the time is lost.

Remember if you like elements of bus connects, it's a good idea to reply to the consultation in a positive way.

It won't succeed if people in support of the project don't reply to the consultation.

FYI Dublin has slightly higher population density as Amsterdam and most other EU cities around the million to two million mark.

Stephen15 · 31-07-2018 11:39am

troyzer wrote: »

And as I've said, if it is replaced by a bus I'd be happy to use it. But until it is, I remain sceptical.

*Yeah, just took a look there. The C bus gets me into Grand Canal which is about a ten minute walk to work. How can you tell how long the C bus will actually take though? That's the kicker. At least in this scenario the bus looks like it'll be more frequent and I won't have to change buses like I do currently. That's where all of the time is lost.

Would you not consider taking the 25a/b to Merrion Sqaure and then hopping on a Dublin Bike to get to Ballsbridge or even getting a fold up bike and taking it on the bus.

LeChienMefiant · 31-07-2018 11:42am

no.8 wrote: »

*PS im not advocating new roads top supplement the M50, rather roads which could allow the ones on surface level to be significantly relieved from congestion or blocked to private cars. Same goes for Cork and Galway. It is expensive yes, but so is the unsung cost of congestion

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Dig

monument · 31-07-2018 11:44am

no.8 wrote: »

Agreed. Once very good additional example is Basel. Small-ish, but busy and complex city geographically with a fantastic road system (roads sunk under Street level). Still has congestion issues mind you, but removing all those cars from main streets has cleared up roads for an extensive tram network and safe and busy cycling lanes.

It seems like our town planers are afraid to go underground here (unless there is a river facing us and they have serious obligations to do so - port tunnel). E.g. No basements for storage rooms in apartment blocks, few underpasses, underground car parks for residential areas being rare enough. This 2D mentally is not helping.

*PS im not advocating new roads top supplement the M50, rather roads which could allow the ones on surface level to be significantly relieved from congestion or blocked to private cars. Same goes for Cork and Galway. It is expensive yes, but so is the unsung cost of congestion

What city of a simular size to Dublin is sinking roads in its confined city centre?

Bray Head wrote: »

Agreed. Some kind of north-south road tunnel (Say Drumcondra to Donnybrook) would cater for a lot of cross-city traffic and would be complementary to putting a congestion charge in place.

Some people say: look that those people taking about "car free", that's so unrealistic.

But here we have people suggesting a 5-6km tunnel in a city centre for cars to provide for a shrinking amount of cross-city traffic.

monument · 31-07-2018 11:53am

troyzer wrote: »

If it can get me there in under 40 minutes, sign me up. It would suit me better anyway. I miss good public transport like I had in Australia, I had so much time to just read, listen to music and get ready for the day. I hate sitting in traffic and getting annoyed but I'd rather do that then lose an extra two hours a day to commuting.

If you ban cars in the city centre then they'll be forced onto the canals and south circular road which would blow up my commute and be just as bad as a ban for me as well.

Fair point on the population density. I suppose it isn't really fair to compare Dublin's density to a city like Paris or Brussels. Oslo is probably a better model because it's actually significantly less densely populated than Dublin. My girlfriend just got back, she said it was class. Especially the "Luas".

*Apparentely Amsterdam's metro area is nearly four times as densely populated as Dublin's. I think the issue isn't the city centre itself but rather how quickly the city transitions into suburbs. People commute from as far as Navan, Drogheda, Athy and Arklow into Dublin and have to be taken into account when calculating the true population density.

Dublin has a higher population density in its continuous urban area than Amsterdam does -- continuous urban area is the UN agreed standard for what a city is, not based on historic city and county boundaries:

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

troyzer · 31-07-2018 12:01pm

monument wrote: »

Remember if you like elements of bus connects, it's a good idea to reply to the consultation in a positive way.

It won't succeed if people in support of the project don't reply to the consultation.

FYI Dublin has slightly higher population density as Amsterdam and most other EU cities around the million to two million mark.

Not according to wikipedia it doesn't. The inner core is the same but maybe Dublin is weird in how far people commute from. I don't know about Amsterdam, I've never been there but do they really commute the equivalent distance as Mullingar to Dublin? I know people who do this.

When you count these people into Dublin's population (which you really should as they make up the daytime population) there is absolutely no way our population density is the same as Amsterdam.

Stephen15 wrote: »

Would you not consider taking the 25a/b to Merrion Sqaure and then hopping on a Dublin Bike to get to Ballsbridge or even getting a fold up bike and taking it on the bus.

I looked at doing this early on but I'd have to leave an hour earlier to make it in for 7:00. And even then I'd be waiting from around 6:40 for the building to open.

monument wrote: »

Dublin has a higher population density in its continuous urban area than Amsterdam does -- continuous urban area is the UN agreed standard for what a city is, not based on historic city and county boundaries:

http://irishcycle.com/2015/11/03/is-dublin-a-low-density-city/

As I've said above, Dublin is not a low density city at its core. But we do have an enormous commuter belt. This article is from today:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/commuter-belt-widens-to-100km-with-wexford-and-laois-becoming-prime-spots-for-workers-in-dublin-36509834.html

If Amsterdam also has a 100km commuter belt I'll stand corrected.

monument · 31-07-2018 12:15pm

troyzer wrote: »

Not according to wikipedia it doesn't. The inner core is the same but maybe Dublin is weird in how far people commute from. I don't know about Amsterdam, I've never been there but do they really commute the equivalent distance as Mullingar to Dublin? I know people who do this.

When you count these people into Dublin's population (which you really should as they make up the daytime population) there is absolutely no way our population density is the same as Amsterdam.

I looked at doing this early on but I'd have to leave an hour earlier to make it in for 7:00. And even then I'd be waiting from around 6:40 for the building to open.

As I've said above, Dublin is not a low density city at its core. But we do have an enormous commuter belt. This article is from today:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/commuter-belt-widens-to-100km-with-wexford-and-laois-becoming-prime-spots-for-workers-in-dublin-36509834.html

If Amsterdam also has a 100km commuter belt I'll stand corrected.

You're confusing two issues -- density has nothing to do with commuting from Mullingar etc.

The regional areas of Amsterdam and Dublin are not comparable -- Dublin's is based on county borders.

The best measure of density is the continuous urban area -- that includes what the CSO calls Dublin City and Suburbs. Dublin has a slightly higher density for the continuous urban area (Amsterdam has higher density in the core city centre, i.e. Within the canals, but that's another story).

People commute into Amsterdam from all over the Netherlands and beyond -- 100km and well over that.

PlaneSpeeking · 31-07-2018 12:23pm

Really very difficult to raise an objection to a point raised by a Moderator but please remember not everyone is physically able to cycle. To have this as a solution to all queries is not 100% helpful.

There are people who have no other option but to use their car.

The area in the Midlands I commute from is fortunately (currently) a walkable distance (but as my illness progresses it may not be - at the moment I must get a taxi in the morning. A time will likely come when it is both ways). I'm lucky I'm only a little over a mile away from station - and have (since LCC) a decent connection to my workplace.

To suggest cycling to the station, and then getting a Dublin Bike the other end would be impossible for me and I imagine for many others.

There are solutions needed and I understand the vested interest many have but cycling is not always the solution to congestion issues.

troyzer · 31-07-2018 12:36pm

monument wrote: »

You're confusing two issues -- density has nothing to do with commuting from Mullingar etc.

The regional areas of Amsterdam and Dublin are not comparable -- Dublin's is based on county borders.

The best measure of density is the continuous urban area -- that includes what the CSO calls Dublin City and Suburbs. Dublin has a slightly higher density for the continuous urban area (Amsterdam has higher density in the core city centre, i.e. Within the canals, but that's another story).

People commute into Amsterdam from all over the Netherlands and beyond -- 100km and well over that.

I'm not disputing the traditional definition of urban density. What I'm saying is that if you look at the daytime population of Dublin and try to serve it via metro, it'll never work. You'll just end up with the current situation where you have the Luas and DART only serving the easiest areas and leaving the rest of us in the cold.

Lucan is hardly in the sticks and we have only got the bus. The lads in Mullingar have nothing. Good luck trying to get a proper mass transit system out that far.

I can't find anything off hand that proves or disproves that Dublin's 100km commuter belt is normal. But Amsterdam definitely has better commuter rail than Dublin does so this alleviates the number of cars coming in. We don't really have that.

monument · 31-07-2018 12:50pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Really very difficult to raise an objection to a point raised by a Moderator

The best thing to do it not mention moderation at all. Or you can feel free to PM me or another moderator if you have any issue with my posts.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

but please remember not everyone is physically able to cycle. To have this as a solution to all queries is not 100% helpful.

Have you read the thread? Maybe you're taking what people are saying up wrong? Because I can't see where myself or anybody else has suggested that everyone should cycle.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

There are people who have no other option but to use their car.

Yes, and the best thing for those people would be is for those who can use alternatives to get out of their cars.

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

The area in the Midlands I commute from is fortunately (currently) a walkable distance (but as my illness progresses it may not be - at the moment I must get a taxi in the morning. A time will likely come when it is both ways). I'm lucky I'm only a little over a mile away from station - and have (since LCC) a decent connection to my workplace.

To suggest cycling to the station, and then getting a Dublin Bike the other end would be impossible for me and I imagine for many others.

Why do you think people are expecting you to cycle?

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

There are solutions needed and I understand the vested interest many have but cycling is not always the solution to congestion issues.

Just because it's not the solution for you and others doesn't mean it's not a big part of the solution.

You'll see that in my posts -- I've said people will use a mix, including just driving.

PlaneSpeeking · 31-07-2018 12:51pm

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not disputing the traditional definition of urban density. What I'm saying is that if you look at the daytime population of Dublin and try to serve it via metro, it'll never work. You'll just end up with the current situation where you have the Luas and DART only serving the easiest areas and leaving the rest of us in the cold.

Lucan is hardly in the sticks and we have only got the bus. The lads in Mullingar have nothing. Good luck trying to get a proper mass transit system out that far.

I can't find anything off hand that proves or disproves that Dublin's 100km commuter belt is normal. But Amsterdam definitely has better commuter rail than Dublin does so this alleviates the number of cars coming in. We don't really have that.

Silly question perhaps but is there a possibilty of linking the outskirts of Dublin (airport etc) via Metro to an interchange similar to the Red Cow ?

PlaneSpeeking · 31-07-2018 12:55pm

monument wrote: »

The best thing to do it not mention moderation at all. Or you can feel free to PM me or another moderator if you have any issue with my posts.

Have you read the thread? Maybe you're taking what people are saying up wrong? Because I can't see where myself or anybody else has suggested that everyone should cycle.

Yes, and the best thing for those people would be is for those who can use alternatives to get out of their cars.

Why do you think people are expecting you to cycle?

Just because it's not the solution for you and others doesn't mean it's not a big part of the solution.

You'll see that in my posts -- I've said people will use a mix, including just driving.

Reading the posts on here - there seems to be no consideration of others' circumstances, just "cars are bad". No, they're not always.

And yes several times I have been told that Dublin Bikes are the only way to go. And they may well be a boon to some people, but because an individual is in favour of a transport method - it may not be the best solution. Perhaps a mix is needed ?

LeChienMefiant · 31-07-2018 1:12pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Really very difficult to raise an objection to a point raised by a Moderator but please remember not everyone is physically able to cycle. To have this as a solution to all queries is not 100% helpful.

No reasonable person is going to suggest a restriction that is going to negatively impact on people with mobility issues. If there is less congestion from those who have no such needs then surely that serves the interests of those that do?

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

There are solutions needed and I understand the vested interest many have but cycling is not always the solution to congestion issues.

This is what I was referring to earlier about seeking to find where interests are aligned. Are there not a lot of instances where your interests are aligned with responsible cyclists?

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 1:25pm

monument wrote: »

What city of a simular size to Dublin is sinking roads in its confined city centre?

Some people say: look that those people taking about "car free", that's so unrealistic.

But here we have people suggesting a 5-6km tunnel in a city centre for cars to provide for a shrinking amount of cross-city traffic.

Adding more capacity for cars only increases the number of cars in urban situations. Boston, or anywhere on that continent, is not a model for sustainable development.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 1:30pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Really very difficult to raise an objection to a point raised by a Moderator but please remember not everyone is physically able to cycle. To have this as a solution to all queries is not 100% helpful.

There are people who have no other option but to use their car.

The area in the Midlands I commute from is fortunately (currently) a walkable distance (but as my illness progresses it may not be - at the moment I must get a taxi in the morning. A time will likely come when it is both ways). I'm lucky I'm only a little over a mile away from station - and have (since LCC) a decent connection to my workplace.

To suggest cycling to the station, and then getting a Dublin Bike the other end would be impossible for me and I imagine for many others.

There are solutions needed and I understand the vested interest many have but cycling is not always the solution to congestion issues.

Well good. Nobody anywhere said that a City's commuting needs can be 100% met by cycling. Getting 33% cycling for their commute is a realistic goal though. This can be achieved through a dramatic improvement to cycling infrastructure and for gods sake some actual funding for the Dublin bikes scheme.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 1:33pm

troyzer wrote: »

I'm not disputing the traditional definition of urban density. What I'm saying is that if you look at the daytime population of Dublin and try to serve it via metro, it'll never work. You'll just end up with the current situation where you have the Luas and DART only serving the easiest areas and leaving the rest of us in the cold.

Lucan is hardly in the sticks and we have only got the bus. The lads in Mullingar have nothing. Good luck trying to get a proper mass transit system out that far.

I can't find anything off hand that proves or disproves that Dublin's 100km commuter belt is normal. But Amsterdam definitely has better commuter rail than Dublin does so this alleviates the number of cars coming in. We don't really have that.

Mullingar has a rail connection to Dublin and once Metrolink is built, and DART expansion is complete commuters for Mullingar will have excellent interchange options to get them all over the Greater Dublin Area in a jiffy.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 1:34pm

PlaneSpeeking wrote: »

Perhaps a mix is needed ?

well yeah

How we think and talk about reducing car use in cities

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