Allow a child to explore faith or not?

ABitFedUp · 02-09-2019 7:48pm #1

Hi, my husband would be agnostic whereas I would have been brought up in a very religious family but lost my faith like many people. Our daughter has just started school in the local RC primary and is asking to say prayers and wants to learn the words and my husband wants to tell her it is all rubbish whereas I don’t think it does any harm and she should be allowed to make up her own mind. He thinks that the church uses this to get people in while they are young and impressionable and that she will be brain-washed! I don’t want her to be different to the other kids but I also don’t want my husband to feel that I think my views are all that matters. I would like him to wait til she is older before he explains his point of view and let her decide then whether she agrees or not. Has anyone else gone though this or do people who have no faith just go to educate together/non denominational schools?

AulWan · 02-09-2019 7:59pm

If your husband felt that strongly about it, why did he agree to enrolling your daughter in a RC school in the first place?

An ET school would probably have been a better choice. As far I know there are no totally non-demonimational schools.

Now she is in an awkward position. If she is hearing one thing in school, and something else from her dad at home, (which she may then repeat to the teacher) I can only see it leading to confusion for her.

You can opt your child out of religion in school, (eg. communion prep) but in my view, your husband knew it was an RC school, so he will need to accept that she is going to see, hear and learn some stuff and bide his time, rather then make a big deal about it and causing confusion for her, now.

If he can't do that, then move her.

Springfields · 02-09-2019 8:01pm

ABitFedUp wrote: »

Hi, my husband would be agnostic whereas I would have been brought up in a very religious family but lost my faith like many people. Our daughter has just started school in the local RC primary and is asking to say prayers and wants to learn the words and my husband wants to tell her it is all rubbish whereas I don’t think it does any harm and she should be allowed to make up her own mind. He thinks that the church uses this to get people in while they are young and impressionable and that she will be brain-washed! I don’t want her to be different to the other kids but I also don’t want my husband to feel that I think my views are all that matters. I would like him to wait til she is older before he explains his point of view and let her decide then whether she agrees or not. Has anyone else gone though this or do people who have no faith just go to educate together/non denominational schools?

Not quite the same scenario but my husband and I are not church goers and have our children enrolled in local rc national school ( no multi denominational school in the vicinity. We had them baptized to ensure entry to this school (at the time.the schools were able to prioritize the rc applicants ) . However they will not making communion or confirmation. They can if they.choose.to later in life. From infants we found the religious curriculum quite generic in that it was a lot.about looking after your environment being nice.to people etc etc so we just let them participate.
When they are this young I dont see the point in confusing them and.telling them what is.being taught is rubbish. They wont understand and that age the teacher is right no matter what
When it.came to communion time we had.them well prepped that they wouldn't be making it and why and when it came to the time they didn't worry about it. I think that was a better age to try explain things.
I be slow to say too to a small child that it's all a load of bull ( even tho that's what I believe!) But they need.to be mindful of others who do practice and just to realise that everyone is.different and that's ok too...

beveragelady · 02-09-2019 8:07pm

I went to a Catholic school in the 80s, raised in an atheist family. We were told from a very young age that lots of people believed in gods and we should be polite about it but think for ourselves. Never had any problems. I remember being impressed by the pageantry and glamour of churches and playing along for a bit but I never believed a word of it. There's probably no harm in your daughter taking part, schools aren't as pushy about indoctrination and faith formation as they used to be.

Cabaal · 02-09-2019 9:39pm

ABitFedUp wrote: »

Hi, my husband would be agnostic whereas I would have been brought up in a very religious family but lost my faith like many people. Our daughter has just started school in the local RC primary and is asking to say prayers and wants to learn the words and my husband wants to tell her it is all rubbish whereas I don’t think it does any harm and she should be allowed to make up her own mind. He thinks that the church uses this to get people in while they are young and impressionable and that she will be brain-washed!

I must say I'd agree with your husband,
The whole thing with RC schools is they work religion into everything, there is no such thing as a religion class because they work religion into english and art subjects.

Overall they spend 10% on avg of the school year on religion (thats as much as maths and english) and this increases to upto 20% in communion/confirmation prep years. Thats alot of focus on a religion that they won't encourage her to question while shes in school.

The reality is if you took religion out of our school systems most parents wouldn't bother with communion and confirmation, as it is most hate having to go to mass coming up to the events.

Its all very much about getting them young with the RC faith.

I don’t want her to be different to the other kids but I also don’t want my husband to feel that I think my views are all that matters.

Ask yourself this,
If your local school happened to be Jewish or Muslim, would you raise your child in either of those faiths just so they aren't different to the other kids?

Because that's essentially what you are proposing to do here.
It seems you just want an easy life rather then allowing her to actually explore all faiths.

I would like him to wait til she is older before he explains his point of view and let her decide then whether she agrees or not. Has anyone else gone though this or do people who have no faith just go to educate together/non-denominational schools?

But if she's exploring faiths then the proper way for her to do this is to be aware of other faiths and none even at a young age, she needs to understand from a young age that these are just stories...not facts as they are thought in school.

By allowing the RC faith to gets first dips and to indoctrinate her isn't allowing her to explore her faith at all. She won't be encouraged in school to question the whole jesus/bible/god thing as they don't like that

AulWan · 02-09-2019 9:51pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Overall they spend 10% on avg of the school year on religion (thats as much as maths and english) and this increases to upto 20% in communion/confirmation prep years.

This very much depends on each individual school.

The RC school my children attended spent nowhere near that much time on religion, not even in second class and definitely not in sixth class when the emphasis was on getting them ready for secondary school, more than confirmation.

shesty · 02-09-2019 9:52pm

Whereas I would take the opposite approach and say expose her to a faith young and encourage her to question it.Does it matter if she questions in while in school? She can come home and question it, nothing wrong with that.She doesn't have to participate in communion or confirmation.

I would however, tell your husband to watch the language he uses.By all means encourage her to question religion, and discuss it but do not encourage her to go around saying it is all bull#$%&.Teach her tolerance instead of scorn.There are so many religions in the world and she doesn't have to have one, but she does need to understand that hers is not the only opinion that matters, and to accept that not everybody has her beliefs.That is almost more important than teaching an actual belief.

twowheelsonly · 02-09-2019 10:02pm

Your husband is agnostic, presumably by his own choice /of his own free will. Likewise yourself, been there, done that and chose to opt out.
Why not give this choice to your daughter instead of foisting it upon her ? By denying her religion now you're essentially making that choice for her whereas by allowing her to try out different things (and not just religion) she'll be informed enough to make her own mind up.
In the early days it's nothing more than stories anyway. Leave her play along with the rest of the kids and decide herself when she's a bit older.

shesty · 03-09-2019 9:07am

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Why not give this choice to your daughter instead of foisting it upon her ? By denying her religion now you're essentially making that choice for her whereas by allowing her to try out different things (and not just religion) she'll be informed enough to make her own mind up.

This is exactly my thinking.No matter what you do you are foisting your choice on them and indoctrinating them in your own way.Worrying that they will become brainwashed by the bit of religion they do in school is extreme (to me anyway). At least if you open the religion to them and show them how it works, you give them the option to question it, rather than it all being a big mystery that everyone else can participate in but not them.I often wonder how many kids who are now being instructed against religion will turn around in their teens and twenties and decide to join a church, because they have always been told not to.

It's all about choices in the long run I guess and it's harder to make choices if you have no knowledge or information.I don't think there is anything wrong with religion but I would rather my kids knew enough to make informed choices about what they believe, rather than just being told by me that it's all rubbish and stay away from it.

ABitFedUp · 03-09-2019 11:47am

Thanks everyone, I appreciate everyone’s point of view, and there were some good points to discuss with my husband about allowing her to think for herself and not confusing her. In some ways I think it is like Santa Claus, just letting her have something to hold onto and believe in until she is old enough to know more.
There were a number of reasons to send her to the RC school, the first being it is more accessible to us and our childminder transport wise, the second being that unfortunately there is not a big choice of good second level schools so that it will be easier to get into the nearest one if she has been at primary school in the catchment area, the last was that I do think the mainstream (mainly RC) schools are more in line with our parenting style. My view of some of the educate together schools is that the kids cannot conform as is required by society. They are too instilled with a sense of entitlement about their own opinions and abilities! Neither of us even like the way the call the teachers by their first name! A friend who teaches second level says she can always guess the children who have come from educate together schools at open evenings vs other primary schools!
Now don’t jump down my throat over my opinion! Other people might think it is a good thing they are being brought up that way but I just think too many kids struggle when they get into the real world and have to knuckle down and settle into being minions in the workplace!

mordeith · 03-09-2019 1:26pm

twowheelsonly wrote: »

Y
Why not give this choice to your daughter instead of foisting it upon her ? By denying her religion now you're essentially making that choice for her whereas by allowing her to try out different things (and not just religion) she'll be informed enough to make her own mind up.
In the early days it's nothing more than stories anyway. Leave her play along with the rest of the kids and decide herself when she's a bit older.

The difference is kids are taught that what they learn in religion is true. A junior infant isn't going to be exploring religion. They are being told that Catholic/Christian beliefs are the truth and given the same weight in the school day as maths, english, irish etc.
I'd opt them out of religion if I was you OP. That's what we did. When the child gets older is will be far easier fro them to chose themselves if they want to explore religion rather than being shown images now of a dead guy nailed to a cross at Easter and being told it's essentially all your fault!

ABitFedUp · 03-09-2019 1:38pm

mordeith wrote: »

The difference is kids are taught that what they learn in religion is true. A junior infant isn't going to be exploring religion. They are being told that Catholic/Christian beliefs are the truth and given the same weight in the school day as maths, english, irish etc.
I'd opt them out of religion if I was you OP. That's what we did. When the child gets older is will be far easier fro them to chose themselves if they want to explore religion rather than being shown images now of a dead guy nailed to a cross at Easter and being told it's essentially all your fault!

We have been considering opting out after 1st class so there is no preparation for the sacraments. Luckily she has no older female cousins who have made communion so won’t be aware of the drama of the dress and want to participate on those grounds alone! I do agree a bit about kids being indoctrinated early but surely between the ages of 4 & 7 it is more moral guidance than anything? I have vague memories of being told about Zacchaeus the greedy tax collector at a young age in school but don’t think there was anything disturbing or inappropriate that would narrow a child’s view of the world or lure them into a beliefs system unbeknownst to anyone...

Cabaal · 04-09-2019 9:14am

ABitFedUp wrote: »

Neither of us even like the way the call the teachers by their first name!

You do know if they go to third level they'll call the lecturers by the first name, they'll also call their boss by their first name. Why the obsession with being called Miss or Sir?

Many teachers seem obsessed with being called Miss or Sir, I know somebody who a few years back did a Level 5 course which was being done by a teacher from the local secondary school.

Despite the class being made up of people ranging from 18 to 40 years of age the teacher demanded that people call her Miss and demanded that people also ask for permission before they go to the toilet.

Both demands were a farce and basically anyone over 25 in the course ignored them and treated the class the same way they treated college (which most had already experience with), they used her first name and they went to the toilet when they needed to.

Oh and that same teacher was from a catholic school and also asked that everyone stand for the angelus at 12pm.
:rolleyes:

mordeith wrote: »

The difference is kids are taught that what they learn in religion is true. A junior infant isn't going to be exploring religion. They are being told that Catholic/Christian beliefs are the truth and given the same weight in the school day as maths, english, irish etc.
I'd opt them out of religion if I was you OP. That's what we did. When the child gets older is will be far easier fro them to chose themselves if they want to explore religion rather than being shown images now of a dead guy nailed to a cross at Easter and being told it's essentially all your fault!

This is spot on, children at such a young age are not thought to explore faiths or question the catholic faith. Instead its told to them as fact.

For anyone wanting their kid to explore a faiths the child must be aware that the stories are not factual, they should also be exposed to other faiths.

Neyite · 05-09-2019 11:11am

We are in a similar situation - both agnostic/athiest but child enrolled in a catholic school (very rural & only option)
But... my view is that there's a difference between religious doctrine and personal faith. And that was my deciding factor really.

Religion has worldwide historical context. If we want to understand events in history and how they've shaped our borders, our societal structures, our cultures, our laws and all that, it really helps to have studied religion or have some sort of knowledge about how people driven by a belief system can cause all those things and the knock on effect from those events. If we want to understand dangerous ideology in the future such as how ISIS takes hold or recruits then it's important to have a working knowledge of a religion. Take the issues about Brexit backstop for example. The Plantations of Ulster were down to James VI &I giving the land to his loyal subjects who's faith aligned closely to his, displacing Irish natives. That led to the six counties Partition during our War of Independence, the Troubles, the Good Friday Agreement, power sharing in Stormont and now Brexit and the problem of the backstop that's impossible to solve.

Faith is different. And the way I see it is that in our day, most of us were indoctrinated with the fact that Catholicism was the only religion in town and the only True faith and we weren't allowed to question it.

So for me, I think it's important for my son to have an understanding of how religions can work so it can supplement his understanding of cultures, laws, societal norms, history, geography, politics etc. It won't be indoctrination hopefully because I'll supplement it at home by telling him what I can about other religions and how they shaped /are shaping the world and encourage him to question and think about it all. He can disbelieve but still be respectful of other people's faith if not their belief system. Whether he develops faith in a religion is really his own choice he makes when he's older.

Paddy Cow · 06-09-2019 8:37am

You're both over thinking it. Kids go through phases and that's all this is. Saying prayers is something new and while the child might do it for a week or so, they will get bored and forget about it.

lazygal · 09-09-2019 11:00am

Children in Ireland don't explore faith in an open way. Even in our Educate Together school the religious ****e is treated with kid gloves. So we discuss how silly religious beliefs are at home and that it is perfectly ok to question them in school and say exactly what they think of them.

AulWan · 09-09-2019 5:17pm

lazygal wrote: »

Children in Ireland don't explore faith in an open way. Even in our Educate Together school the religious ****e is treated with kid gloves. So we discuss how silly religious beliefs are at home and that it is perfectly ok to question them in school and say exactly what they think of them.

Wow.

So you actively encourage your children to be argumentative and disrespectful in school, to what may be a classmate's faith ?

That's just rude.

Say what you like at home. But your children should be taught to be respectful of someone else's faith in school.

Paddy Cow · 09-09-2019 5:42pm

AulWan wrote: »

Wow.

So you actively encourage your children to be argumentative and disrespectful in school, to what may be a classmate's faith ?

That's just rude.

Say what you like at home. But your children should be taught to be respectful of someone else's faith in school.

That's a major leap from saying what you think to being argumentative and disrespectful. You can disagree with someone without being rude or disrespectful.

lazygal · 09-09-2019 6:02pm

No I encourage them to state that they don't believe any of this. That there's no evidence of any god. That religion has a lot of negative aspects such as the suppression of reproductive rights. And that our family's view of religion is as valid as the family who follows Islam or Catholicism or any other mad religion.

AulWan · 09-09-2019 6:04pm

I disagree.

If a child pipes up in school that something is "silly" relating to someone's faith, then that is being disrespectful. I would not encourage that.

Educate Together schools are not non-denomination, they are multi-denomination. It would be very possible to cause offence. If you've nothing good to say, say nothing.

victor8600 · 09-09-2019 6:14pm

I am totally atheist. Yet, a prayer or some chanting may be beneficial to you. Repeating magic words may help you deal with an anxiety or a stress. Sure, you can invent your own prayer, but why bother when the church had done the work for you.

Paddy Cow · 09-09-2019 7:46pm

AulWan wrote: »

I disagree.

If a child pipes up in school that something is "silly" relating to someone's faith, then that is being disrespectful. I would not encourage that.

Educate Together schools are not non-denomination, they are multi-denomination. It would be very possible to cause offence. If you've nothing good to say, say nothing.

You are absolutely right. If a child called another child's religion silly that would be rude and disrespectful.

That never happened though.

Why are you running down ET schools? Have you had a bad experience that you are projecting onto a poster here?

AulWan · 09-09-2019 8:13pm

I didn't run down ET schools. I pointed out that they are not non-denominational, (no faith) but multi-denominational, meaning there will be children attending of many faiths.

That's simply factual, not negativity. I don't have a problem with ET schools.

lazygal · 09-09-2019 9:05pm

Mine are in one and if my children have to do the learn together programme which is entirely uncritical of religion we will balance that out by saying our family doesn't believe any of this nonsense and none of it is true.
No one has to respect anyone's beliefs. You respect people.

is_that_so · 09-09-2019 9:06pm

lazygal wrote: »

Mine are in one and if my children have to do the learn together programme which is entirely uncritical of religion we will balance that out by saying our family doesn't believe any of this nonsense and none of it is true.
No one has to respect anyone's beliefs. You respect people.

Which includes their beliefs.

AulWan · 09-09-2019 9:43pm

is_that_so wrote: »

Which includes their beliefs.

Exactly.

Paddy Cow · 09-09-2019 9:47pm

AulWan wrote: »

I didn't run down ET schools. I pointed out that they are not non-denominational, (no faith) but multi-denominational, meaning there will be children attending of many faiths.

That's simply factual, not negativity. I don't have a problem with ET schools.

That's exactly what everyone thinks ET schools are so what's the problem?

Cabaal · 10-09-2019 3:01pm

victor8600 wrote: »

I am totally atheist. Yet, a prayer or some chanting may be beneficial to you. Repeating magic words may help you deal with an anxiety or a stress. Sure, you can invent your own prayer, but why bother when the church had done the work for you.

Indeed, just leave your brain at the door eh? Why think for yourself eh?

There's a reason why followers of the faith are referred to as a flock and the lord is the Sheppard.
Sheep just blindly follow...

is_that_so wrote: »

Which includes their beliefs.

Within reason.
A person could hate gay people because of their belief, if we take your line we must respect that belief. However such a belief is not compatible with our society.

A faith is just an idea, like all ideas it can and should be questioned. It shouldn't be accepted as fact or real.

If a person believed in Scientology what you are suggesting is that belief should be respected, I guess that means we should also respect their views on psychiatry and allows them to spread this view. Perhaps they could use some tax payer money to spread it while they are at it similar to how the catholic church uses tax payer money.

Wanting to live in a country where a religion cannot be questioned is a very dangerous place, we should know this already as this is what Ireland once was and look how that turned out.

AulWan · 10-09-2019 3:32pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Indeed, just leave your brain at the door eh? Why think for yourself eh?

There's a reason why followers of the faith are referred to as a flock and the lord is the Sheppard.
Sheep just blindly follow...

Within reason.
A person could hate gay people because of their belief, if we take your line we must respect that belief. However such a belief is not compatible with our society.

A faith is just an idea, like all ideas it can and should be questioned. It shouldn't be accepted as fact or real.

If a person believed in Scientology what you are suggesting is that belief should be respected, I guess that means we should also respect their views on psychiatry and allows them to spread this view. Perhaps they could use some tax payer money to spread it while they are at it similar to how the catholic church uses tax payer money.

Wanting to live in a country where a religion cannot be questioned is a very dangerous place, we should know this already as this is what Ireland once was and look how that turned out.

We're talking about what is appropriate for school kids in a multi denominational schools.

Get a grip.

lazygal · 10-09-2019 4:52pm

If kids in school are allowed to present aspects of their faith, such as when a Muslim child brought in a prayer mat and spoke about gender segregation in his mosque, my children should be able to say this is misogyny and not a nice belief system.

M5 · 10-09-2019 4:58pm

AulWan wrote: »

If your husband felt that strongly about it, why did he agree to enrolling your daughter in a RC school in the first place?

An ET school would probably have been a better choice. As far I know there are no totally non-demonimational schools.

Now she is in an awkward position. If she is hearing one thing in school, and something else from her dad at home, (which she may then repeat to the teacher) I can only see it leading to confusion for her.

You can opt your child out of religion in school, (eg. communion prep) but in my view, your husband knew it was an RC school, so he will need to accept that she is going to see, hear and learn some stuff and bide his time, rather then make a big deal about it and causing confusion for her, now.

If he can't do that, then move her.

To be fair,not everyone has a choice. When you leave the cities they are virtually no ET schools.

AulWan · 10-09-2019 6:35pm

lazygal wrote: »

If kids in school are allowed to present aspects of their faith, such as when a Muslim child brought in a prayer mat and spoke about gender segregation in his mosque, my children should be able to say this is misogyny and not a nice belief system.

No, they shouldn't.

Because the difference is, the muslim child is simply talking about his faith. They are not preaching or telling your child that what they practice is something your child should do too.

If your child then turns around and criticises what the muslim child has said, they are being rude and disrespectful of that child's faith. That is not okay.

When your child's turn comes to present aspects of their faith, or lack of faith as the case may be, then they can say my family does not believe in religion or have any belief system. They can say it then without criticising any aspects of any of their classmate's faiths.

There is a very useful skill you can teach a child. Its called having some TACT and knowing when its appropriate to speak, and when to stay quiet.

This is one of them.

Cabaal · 10-09-2019 9:03pm

AulWan wrote: »

No, they shouldn't.

Because the difference is, the muslim child is simply talking about his faith. They are not preaching or telling your child that what they practice is something your child should do too.

If your child then turns around and criticises what the muslim child has said, they are being rude and disrespectful of that child's faith. That is not okay.

When your child's turn comes to present aspects of their faith, or lack of faith as the case may be, then they can say my family does not believe in religion or have any belief system. They can say it then without criticising any aspects of any of their classmate's faiths.

There is a very useful skill you can teach a child. Its called having some TACT and knowing when its appropriate to speak, and when to stay quiet.

This is one of them.

Interesting,
So if a Christian child came into school and spoke about how gay people are an abomination against god and what they do is sinful and they'll go to hell for it for doing it. you'd be grand with that?

What about if they came into school and expressed how women having sex before marriage was wrong and sinful or how getting pregnant outside of marriage was utterly wrong.

Should everyone respect that expression of faith also and remain silent?

These are all views that many Christians strongly believe but based on your input here its important that everybody stays quiet and use tact because somebody is merely expressing their belief, so that would make it ok.

Speaking in such a manner could be hugely hurtful and upsetting towards children and families that use the school. But I guess they'll just have to swallow that pain until it's their turn to speak
:rolleyes:

AulWan · 10-09-2019 9:29pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Interesting,
So if a Christian child came into school and spoke about how gay people are an abomination against god and what they do is sinful and they'll go to hell for it for doing it. you'd be grand with that?

What about if they came into school and expressed how women having sex before marriage was wrong and sinful or how getting pregnant outside of marriage was utterly wrong.

Should everyone respect that expression of faith also and remain silent?

These are all views that many Christians strongly believe but based on your input here its important that everybody stays quiet and use tact because somebody is merely expressing their belief, so that would make it ok.

Speaking in such a manner could be hugely hurtful and upsetting towards children and families that use the school. But I guess they'll just have to swallow that pain until it's their turn to speak
:rolleyes:

You don't seem to have a problem with children of no faith saying anything which maybe hugely hurtful and upsetting to a child brought up with a faith. e.g. calling it "silly" or "lies" or "misogynistic"?

Double standards much?

You're just being argumentative for the sake of it now. Before teaching your child how to argue matters of faith with their classmates, you should teach them how to be to be respectful and have some basic manners.

Screw Attack · 10-09-2019 9:30pm

No. We don't allow children alcohol and drugs because science says its bad for them.

Reppohc · 10-09-2019 9:38pm

Its 2019 and we still subscribe to the desert version of Mithraism.
Tell him that he should respect other people's beliefs like when he used to believe in the tooth fairy or Santa or the Bohr theory of atomic structure and it would have been uncultured to point out the holes in his understanding.

Cabaal · 11-09-2019 7:39am

AulWan wrote: »

You don't seem to have a problem with children of no faith saying anything which maybe hugely hurtful and upsetting to a child brought up with a faith. e.g. calling it "silly" or "lies" or "misogynistic"?

Double standards much?

You're just being argumentative for the sake of it now. Before teaching your child how to argue matters of faith with their classmates, you should teach them how to be to be respectful and have some basic manners.

First off, I never said anything about silly, lies or misogynistic. I said faith is just a belief and like all beliefs, it should not be blindly accepted as fact or real.

Many beliefs in faiths are completely out of step with the modern world and our country, including what the country has voted for in referendums.

So, to clarify.
You'd have no problem with somebody of a faith expressing their views that single mothers are sinful and gay people are an abomination, provided this is part of them expressing their faith? Again many people of faith holds such views very strongly.

A simple yes or no will do if you find that easier.

Respect works both ways, giving somebody the green light to be hurtful and spread hate just because its part of their religious beliefs is incredibly dangerous. Asking others to respect those hateful beliefs is outright crazy.

Oh and funny you mention misogynistic, its nice that you'd also have no problem with any child expressing their faith if it involved the belief that women shouldn't be working, driving, shouldn't show their faces in front of men and shouldn't have the ability to tell a man what to do. You know, because that viewpoint is fine and should be totally respected because of "faith".
:rolleyes:

dvdman1 · 11-09-2019 8:15am

Let the child do as they please, dont create a big deal out of it.....even though something may be bs to your husband it may have other benifits
A child experiencing different pts of life is generally a good thing it'll help them have greater understanding about things in the future.
Remember we dont always have to pin our colours to yea or nay....as you would expect in life the grey areas are what matters in understanding especially religion.

AulWan · 11-09-2019 8:38am

Cabaal wrote: »

First off, I never said anything about silly, lies or misogynistic. I said faith is just a belief and like all beliefs, it should not be blindly accepted as fact or real.

You didn't say it. But you didn't jump in to pull up the poster who encourages their child to say that, the way you're jumping on my posts.

Says enough for me, really.

I actually couldn't be bothered reading your posts or any more of your ridiculous "what if.. " scenarios any further. Carry on.

El_Duderino 09 · 11-09-2019 8:46am

ABitFedUp wrote: »

. Our daughter has just started school in the local RC primary and is asking to say prayers and wants to learn the words and my husband wants to tell her it is all rubbish whereas I don’t think it does any harm and she should be allowed to make up her own mind. He thinks that the church uses this to get people in while they are young and impressionable and that she will be brain-washed!

Be fair though, they get them to say the prayers and learn them off by heart before they know what they mean precisely to brainwash them. Get them in the habit of doing it first, then teach them what the words mean.

It’s a nasty trick and your husband is dead right to want to protect her from it. I would disagree with telling her it’s all rubbish, I would opt to tell her I think it’s all rubbish (that’s the truth because he does think it’s all rubbish) and she can make up her own mind when she’s old enough to understand what it means (also the truth)

Learning the words and adding in the meaning would work to brainwash children into any belief imaginable. It’s a nasty trick religions play in schools.

Ursus Horribilis · 11-09-2019 8:53am

Most people end up deciding that religion is not for them by the time they reach their teenage years anyway. Especially, I should imagine, if they're not being actively raised in that religion. All you need to do is look at the attendance at mass any weekend.

Donnielighto · 11-09-2019 10:18am

shesty wrote: »

This is exactly my thinking.No matter what you do you are foisting your choice on them and indoctrinating them in your own way.Worrying that they will become brainwashed by the bit of religion they do in school is extreme (to me anyway). At least if you open the religion to them and show them how it works, you give them the option to question it, rather than it all being a big mystery that everyone else can participate in but not them.I often wonder how many kids who are now being instructed against religion will turn around in their teens and twenties and decide to join a church, because they have always been told not to.

It's all about choices in the long run I guess and it's harder to make choices if you have no knowledge or information.I don't think there is anything wrong with religion but I would rather my kids knew enough to make informed choices about what they believe, rather than just being told by me that it's all rubbish and stay away from it.

Atheism/agnosticism isn't indoctrination, it's evidence based.

11-09-2019 1:59pm

I think you and your husband can both "win" here as you can perfectly well engaged with prayer _and_ tell them it is all rubbish at the same time. Let me explain.

My kids have a very active imagination and fantasy life and I engaged with it and nourish it as much as I can. I however never do anything where I have to convince them some fantasy is true - in order for them to benefit from the fantasy. So for example I never did the Santa thing with the 2 kids I have now - nor will I with the next kids.

My kids have shown no interest in prayer at all but if they did I would probably do it under that approach. I would let them know I absolutely think the idea of a god is nonsense - but that I absolutely do believe meditation practices are beneficial and enriching and prayer is just another form of that.

I can tell my kids that if they want to imagine a secret invisible daddy in the sky and want to speak with him that's fine and I will even do it with them. I will tell them it is fun - useful - healthy - calming - and more. But I will make it clear to them that it is - like many other things we do - just fantasy play. And like all fantasy play you can get all the fun and benefit from it without ever having to lose sight of the fact it is fantasy play.

We do a lot of that though. And we throw ourselves into it. Sometimes I throw myself into fantasy with them so convincingly that on occasion it is _them_ that sometimes stop to remind _me_ that it is all not actually real and is all just pretend

All that said for me personally - no slight on you - this sentence here -

ABitFedUp wrote: »

I don’t want her to be different to the other kids

- is one I hear a lot but not one I have ever been able to relate to. I absolutely want my kids to be different in many ways to other kids. I want an individual as a child not a clone. I want to discover and develop who _they_ are as people - not mould them to fit any crowd. Where they are the same as other kids I will nurture that. Where they are different I will nurture that too.

boarduser01 · 20-09-2019 2:46pm

ABitFedUp wrote: »

We have been considering opting out after 1st class so there is no preparation for the sacraments. Luckily she has no older female cousins who have made communion so won’t be aware of the drama of the dress and want to participate on those grounds alone! ...

You think that she is not going to be aware of the other girls getting excited by their dresses...!!!!! She will be fully aware of the drama, but you can deal with it in many different ways. For my daughter (who chose not to make her communion in the Catholic church), we took her out and she chose a new outfit to wear that she would use at weekends. But actually she was ok; as it was her choosing to be different from all her classmates anyway, it was more about me not wanting her to feel like she missed out on something just because other parents were spending a huge amount of money on their children. If you truly want your daughter to make her own decisions, then don't be afraid of letting her see faiths in the school and outside the school. You don't have to critizise other peoples beliefs, just explain in a factual way what you think they are about and what you believe.

_Kaiser_ · 15-10-2019 11:25am

The problem is that RC schools still have a strong hold in most areas, and alternatives may not be available at all or not practical.

Had this discussion myself at the time with the little lad's mother and I was of the view that he should be kept out of it until of an age to make up his own mind either way (which is how I was raised too), but she didn't want him to feel excluded and it was also the better school in the area. ET was considered but warned off that by a teacher who said that so much of the time would be spent focusing on kids who didn't have English as their first language that he'd be at a disadvantage. Now I've no idea if that was racially motivated (nor do I care TBH), but I can see the logic alright given shifting demographics.

In any case, he occasionally mentions a few things about God and such but nothing that has prompted me to have another chat about it with him/her.

lazygal · 15-10-2019 5:36pm

There's far more children in the catholic school nearby who don't have english as a first language than in our ET school. Some teachers are really weirdly anti ET for various reasons, probably not helped by the extremist religious bodies in charge of most teacher training colleges. The school everyone avoids in our estate is the most religious one. You only send your child there as a last resort.

Anyway even in a religious school children don't have to do religion. No reason not to opt them out of all the communion crap.

shesty · 15-10-2019 6:11pm

It is very dependent on the area I'd say.A local ET primary school for us doesn't have the expected numbers but the nearby RC primary school for the same area is so big it got split into a senior and junior school recently and is still growing.Like anything, I imagine it depends on demographics and also what the teachers make the ethos of the school into, be it religious or not.

Peppery · 18-10-2019 12:29pm

ABitFedUp wrote: »

My view of some of the educate together schools is that the kids cannot conform as is required by society. They are too instilled with a sense of entitlement about their own opinions and abilities! Neither of us even like the way the call the teachers by their first name! A friend who teaches second level says she can always guess the children who have come from educate together schools at open evenings vs other primary schools!
Now don’t jump down my throat over my opinion! Other people might think it is a good thing they are being brought up that way but I just think too many kids struggle when they get into the real world and have to knuckle down and settle into being minions in the workplace!

This is just bizarre. It's not strictly related to the topic but this has angered me.

Have you been in an educate together? Talked to someone who went to or taught in an educate together? For a start, each school is different with different behavioural policies - just like a RC school. Secondly, calling teachers by their first name is a norm in our society - do you make your daughter call the person who works in your local shop Mr/Ms, or her distant relatives, or the person who delivers your post? It's just not done anymore. I've taught junior infants in an educate together and I couldn't imagine asking them to call me Ms.

In relation to being 'entitled' most schools (regardless of denomination) aim to educate in an holistic way that promotes confidence in themselves and their opinions, and allows them to develop - not produce 'minions'.

I think your ideas of school are less to do with denomination and more stuck in the past. To be frank, they're dangerous too. The idea of children shutting up and becoming minions is what allowed child abuse to be so prevalent in this country.

Allow a child to explore faith or not?

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