Naming and Shaming bad debts = bad form?

Glowingmind · 10-05-2008 8:47pm #1

To follow on from the locked thread - without naming any names obviously....

Is is really unethical to out someone who owes you money?

Obviously if i stuck up a list of the folks who owe me money, but are likely to pay me back it would be poor form.

But what happens when they start fobbing you off and it becomes increasingly apparant that simply asking them will not get your money back?

I'm pretty sure injuring them would be looked down on, and in most cases there's no written contract, so do you just accept that your money's gone or...

Ollieboy · 10-05-2008 8:54pm

if you tell them you'll go puplic and they still don't pay up or give a very good reason like been really brokes etc, than I can understand outing them.

I'm in the same boat at the moment and have given a final warning as I've had enough of asking for my money back, if it continues, I would tell people and make it very puplic, but only of I kept getting the run around.

eagle eye · 10-05-2008 8:55pm

Well all I can say is that I personally retrieved moneys owed to me from a crack addict when I lived in the US, and I did not have to tell everybody about it either.

This is not a joke btw. And clearly I didn't know he was a junkie when I gave him the money.

I personally believe that those who do not have the stones to get their money back are the ones who get stung.
They go around talking behind peoples backs but not to their face as they would lead to you believe they did.

jbravado · 10-05-2008 8:56pm

I have written off money in the past but I would never out them, I sympathise with WANTING to but think it lacks a little class. I owe a few people loots at the moment (its in the post) and if they really were stuck for it I would ensure I got the loots from somewhere. As a rule if I have to ask for money back I wouldnt lend to that person again.

nicnicnic · 10-05-2008 8:59pm

Ollieboy wrote: »

if you tell them you'll go puplic and they still don't pay up or give a very good reason like been really brokes etc, than I can understand outing them.

I'm in the same boat at the moment and have given a final warning as I've had enough of asking for my money back, if it continues, I would tell people and make it very puplic, but only of I kept getting the run around.

does Joe owe you money to Ollie

HoLLLLLaments · 10-05-2008 8:59pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Well all I can say is that I personally retrieved moneys owed to me from a crack addict when I lived in the US, and I did not have to tell everybody about it either.

This is not a joke btw. And clearly I didn't know he was a junkie when I gave him the money.

I personally believe that those who do not have the stones to get their money back are the ones who get stung.
They go around talking behind peoples backs but not to their face as they would lead to you believe they did.

yeh he shud wait outside his house with an ak47

Chucky the tree · 10-05-2008 9:00pm

I'd rather break his legs tbh.

"Outing" him on the interwebs is a bit gay.(pun definitly intended) If I owed someone money and they publicly stated I wasnt paying it back without give me prior warning they were going to do this then I'd never pay them pay.*

*I never let my debts run over though, and if I do it's within good reason and I'd remind the person I owe on a regular basis about it.

Mr.Plough · 10-05-2008 9:01pm

problem solved imo

eagle eye · 10-05-2008 9:02pm

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

yeh he shud wait outside his house with an ak47

If you need one of them I think I'd just let him welch.:D

a-k-47 · 10-05-2008 9:03pm

HoLLLLLaments wrote: »

yeh he shud wait outside his house with an ak47

and ill give him one

mormank · 10-05-2008 9:03pm

well i am owed money from two different ppl for over 18 months now. i did not lend them the money. instead it was wages that i was owed that i never got. both still play regularly and are very well known galway players that still play on the circuit but just refuse to give me what im owed cos im very rarely in galway.

what do i do here??

LuckyLloyd · 10-05-2008 9:05pm

This post has been deleted.

Ollieboy · 10-05-2008 9:07pm

nicnicnic wrote: »

does Joe owe you money to Ollie

Not money, but defo some decent hands, terrible dealer and no loyalty to people from his own county...

tricky D · 10-05-2008 9:07pm

It might be worth noting that we already have had a naming and shaming episode before when dealers were owed monies. Seemed appropriate at the time but I would say that being one of the parties. Ultimately this was satisfactorily resolved.

Pub07 · 10-05-2008 9:09pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Well all I can say is that I personally retrieved moneys owed to me from a crack addict when I lived in the US, and I did not have to tell everybody about it either.

This is not a joke btw. And clearly I didn't know he was a junkie when I gave him the money.

Obviously he had the money at the time to repay you and felt like he wanted to. If he didn't have the money or said he just wasn't gonna bother repaying you, what could you have done?

I personally lent a very close friend €700 a few years ago and he stiffed me on repaying it, we fell out over it and all, it wasn't the money itself it was the principle. It's strange the way some people who are totally sound in every other way can become absolute c*nts when it comes to money. That's why I will never lend any kind of serious money to anybody again bar close family.

I personally believe that those who do not have the stones to get their money back are the ones who get stung.
They go around talking behind peoples backs but not to their face as they would lead to you believe they did.

Wtf? Of course the poster from the locked thread has asked for his money back from whoever it is and I would imagine he has asked numerous times at this stage if he decided to post what he did as last resort.

"Stones to get their money back"? What are you going to do if someone flat out refuses to pay you? Break their legs? There is f*ck all you can do. Even if you did resort to violence, you'll end up worse off by the time the court case is finished so that's a -EV solution. Naming and shaming is perfectly ok imo as a last resort.

sickpuppy · 10-05-2008 9:10pm

No symapthy for scabs personally if name and shame gets them to pay so be it.
Maybe apublic humiliation stops them from doing it again and they can perhaps face up to there obvious problems.

Hectorjelly · 10-05-2008 9:11pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think there is a difference between:

- a situation where someone has scammed you or has shorted you and is repeatedly fobbing you off - where the person concerned still has good credit / reputation in the community and nobody or very few people are aware that you have been ripped off;

- a situation where you are one of many creditors and it is well known that the person in question is currently unreliable to uphold financial transactions and is owing to numerous members of the community - and is fobbing them off;

In the former scenario a thread naming names serves a purpose - as it warns the community and it is taking something away from the person in question (their reputation). However, in the latter case it amounts to unnecessarily dragging someones name through the mud when doing that is unlikely to help you get your debt paid.

As such, I think it was right that the thread was locked and personal names removed. I think people who are live regs / highstakes online regs are probably aware of the situation to some degree and would be unlikely to allow themselves to be tapped up. Letting people who would never be tapped up know about it as well seems pointless to me.

I dont get this at all. The criteria for posting about it has little or nothing to do with "good for the community", thats just a side benefit. If people behave in bad and underhand ways then the onus should certainly not reside on the person screwed over to keep it out of the publics eye.

eagle eye · 10-05-2008 9:12pm

sickpuppy wrote: »

No symapthy for scabs personally if name and shame gets them to pay so be it.
Maybe apublic humiliation stops them from doing it again and they can perhaps face up to there obvious problems.

Fyi scab = a person who passes an official picket line

LuckyLloyd · 10-05-2008 9:14pm

This post has been deleted.

Hectorjelly · 10-05-2008 9:17pm

Again, who cares? Why should the person who has been screwed over not let everyone know? The fact that it isnt going to do any good is not reason enough to not post something. Are you suggesting that no-one should make a post unless you think there is a good reason to do so? Obviously not, thats not the way the world works. Unless there is a very good reason not to post something, it should be allowed.

nicnicnic · 10-05-2008 9:18pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The point is that it is public amongst those who are likely to be tapped up for further loans from the person in question. I can't see any good reason for letting people who are never likely to meet; talk to; or see the person in question also know that he has a bad financial reputation.

hmmm vengeance maybe

Glowingmind · 10-05-2008 9:18pm

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The point is that it is public amongst those who are likely to be tapped up for further loans from the person in question. I can't see any good reason for letting people who are never likely to meet; talk to; or see the person in question also know that he has a bad financial reputation.

I'm sure not everyone likely to be tapped up does actually know. It may well be precieved to be common knowledge amongst the people who are owed money, but there's no reason to allow any unwitting generous person to be added to the list.

Also, eagle eye - scab is a common reference to a cheapskate (or someone who begs for money) (well it is where i'm from anyway.)

LuckyLloyd · 10-05-2008 9:20pm

This post has been deleted.

sickpuppy · 10-05-2008 9:21pm

A scab may also form on an open wound fyi me hole,
ok the kunts that dont pay back moneys borrowed but still play on a table witha big stack of chips these kunts should be outed so they do not dupe anyone else happy now eagle eye?

NickyOD · 10-05-2008 9:34pm

The problem is there are always two sides to every story and it often becomes a grey area as to who who owes who what and how much and what went on in the past before this loan was given.

If you're gona' name and shame the guy when he is just flat broke and has no way to pay then it's bad form, but if he's clearly capable of paying and doesn't then I guess it's okay.

RoundTower · 10-05-2008 10:23pm

Hectorjelly wrote: »

Again, who cares? Why should the person who has been screwed over not let everyone know? The fact that it isnt going to do any good is not reason enough to not post something. Are you suggesting that no-one should make a post unless you think there is a good reason to do so? Obviously not, thats not the way the world works. Unless there is a very good reason not to post something, it should be allowed.

it's not about whether it's bad form or not, but whether someone might be unhappy with it. Do you think DeV would want a thread like that on his forum?

ianmc38 · 10-05-2008 10:38pm

jbravado wrote: »

I owe a few people several items of clothing at the moment

FYP you pikey!

ianmc38 · 10-05-2008 10:40pm

Mick the Lip is an online high roller now? Lol.

Tribezz · 10-05-2008 10:42pm

Quite simple really NEVER EVER loan money to crack addicts, degenerate gamblers or poker players no matter how "successful":rolleyes:
=+ev imo

a-k-47 · 10-05-2008 10:48pm

all this over a tenner

eggie · 10-05-2008 10:50pm

If you lend someone money in good grace, morality and personal judgement normally dictates repayment, obviously this is not the case.

The fact of the matter is, if repayment is not forthcoming then the amount credited is the cost of getting that person out of your life so that you will not incur future costs of same. The price you pay is dependent upon your initial judgement of character.

Tribezz · 10-05-2008 10:55pm

eggie wrote: »

If you lend someone money in good grace, morality and personal judgement normally dictates repayment, obviously this is not the case.

The fact of the matter is, if repayment is not forthcoming then the amount credited is the cost of getting that person out of your life so that you will not incur future costs of same. The price you pay is dependent upon your initial judgement of character.

You missed the step where personal judgement should dicate YOU DONOT LEND GAMBLERS(sorry poker players) MONEY!!:rolleyes:

Jayminator · 10-05-2008 10:59pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Well all I can say is that I personally retrieved moneys owed to me from a crack addict when I lived in the US, and I did not have to tell everybody about it either.

This is not a joke btw. And clearly I didn't know he was a junkie when I gave him the money.

I personally believe that those who do not have the stones to get their money back are the ones who get stung.
They go around talking behind peoples backs but not to their face as they would lead to you believe they did.

In answer to your comments in the locked thread Mr Eagle Eye. Fistly you dont know me nor do I know you, However I believe myself to be a throughly decent human being who would not post such a thread before I had not exhausted other avenues. You are entitled to your opinion about me and the thread I posted but to be honest I dont really care what your thoughts are of me.

The person in question does indeed have gambling issues and for that he needs help. The gambling issue I can understand and if the person came to me and said he was broke etc etc etc it would never have gone this far. My post serves 2 purposes, Firstly to shame the guy into possibly admitting he has a serious problem and secondly to ensure no other person lends him money ever again. There have been phone calls made around Dublin by someone asking people not to lend him money anymore.

I am also going through a difficult time financially (In business not poker) at the moment and I am not embarrassed to say it so I need this money repaid plain and simple. However when you have been made an eejit of on more than 1 occasion and have demanded the money back personnally on more than 1 occasion and been ignored then I resorted to the public thread.

A lot of this sh**te goes on in card rooms all over Dublin and I bet there are plenty of posters on this forum who are owed money and whom now believe they will never get that money back from whomever they lent it to. As I said in my post I still do have people in poker who I would help out if they were stuck but not to the extent or the amount that I lent this person. It was much more than a ''monkey'' by the way.

I previously resigned myself to the money being lost to a complete gambling degenerate and decided to put it down to experience but when I hear the guy is still playing live and online regularly and ignoring my requests I decided fk that I want the money back.

People who know me well through poker will know that this was indeed a last resort and I will not apologise for my thread as I will also treat Mr XYZ with the same contempt as he has treated my good nature. My generousity was taken advantage of in this case and I do not like nor will I tolerate eing made an idiot of.

And to end this post Mr Eagle I dont really want your respect as I ve never ever met you and well done on your confrontation with your cack addict. You are my hero

Ollieboy · 10-05-2008 11:00pm

the best lend I ever gave was to a ex, it was for 500 to help her pay her credit card at the time, I never heard from her again, cheapest way to get rid of someone I reckon....lol

ollyk1 · 10-05-2008 11:04pm

Obviously this is a dangerous area for boards however given what I'd heard (only a few months ago so it may not be generally known by everyone as it was a surprise to me) then it seems Jay is on a long list.

Please remember its not slander if its true. lol at all this talk of owing a monkey or whatever and it being bad form to publicily out someone when you are owed serious cash. We're not talking about staking some busto online degens to play some 10 dollar tournie here.

I personally would never lend anyone in poker serious cash as a lot of people have serious financial problems that you just don't know about. The fact they are asking for cash at all is the first bad signal in my book.

Jayminator · 10-05-2008 11:18pm

NickyOD wrote: »

The problem is there are always two sides to every story and it often becomes a grey area as to who who owes who what and how much and what went on in the past before this loan was given.

If you're gona' name and shame the guy when he is just flat broke and has no way to pay then it's bad form, but if he's clearly capable of paying and doesn't then I guess it's okay.

Nicky,
if I believed him to be flat broke then I dont open my mouth. However when I hear he is being bailed out by someone and I still dont get repaid then fk em. When I hear he is still playing online and live and I still dont get repaid then fk em too. And when I hear he is still out boozing it up with his buddies fk em again

There are no 2 sides to this story. Story is I lent out money and demanded it back in the nicest way I could and was given bulls**t excuses.

Goodluck2me · 10-05-2008 11:20pm

nicnicnic wrote: »

does Joe owe you money to Ollie

Was it just when you went bald that you got bitter, or was it something you grew up with?

mormank wrote: »

well i am owed money from two different ppl for over 18 months now. i did not lend them the money. instead it was wages that i was owed that i never got. both still play regularly and are very well known galway players that still play on the circuit but just refuse to give me what im owed cos im very rarely in galway.

what do i do here??

Ring Poker events?

Ollieboy wrote: »

Not money, but defo some decent hands, terrible dealer and no loyalty to people from his own county...

I'll have you know I give Nicky O D and Padraig P very good cards in the day, none of this ex-pat rubbish, you barely have the accent, at least Padraig is famous.

Goodluck2me · 10-05-2008 11:22pm

To be serious though, its never an easy situation to be a lender, you are put under pressure to give it in the first place, and then made feel a ar$ehole for asking it back.
Shying away from lending is generally the best way, I remember someone asked me to take money off my credit card in the casino one night, could'nt believe the cheek.
Fair enough helping out friends in close time, but lending to someone to play is generally a bad idea, and best to stay away from.

nicnicnic · 10-05-2008 11:27pm

goodluck2me wrote: »

Was it just when you went bald that you got bitter, or was it something you grew up with?

thats just great you welch on a bet, start a tread about it and then abuse me because of a genetic defect and question my development as a person; man what a insect you really are

Jayminator · 10-05-2008 11:28pm

jbravado wrote: »

I have written off money in the past but I would never out them, I sympathise with WANTING to but think it lacks a little class. I owe a few people loots at the moment (its in the post) and if they really were stuck for it I would ensure I got the loots from somewhere. As a rule if I have to ask for money back I wouldnt lend to that person again.

Sammy your next...Jokin ffs... Anyhow yes I agree it lacks class but what can ya do eh

LuckyLloyd · 10-05-2008 11:41pm

This post has been deleted.

The Al Lad · 10-05-2008 11:47pm

eagle eye wrote: »

Well all I can say is that I personally retrieved moneys owed to me from a crack addict when I lived in the US, and I did not have to tell everybody about it either.

This is not a joke btw. And clearly I didn't know he was a junkie when I gave him the money.

I personally believe that those who do not have the stones to get their money back are the ones who get stung.
They go around talking behind peoples backs but not to their face as they would lead to you believe they did.

Wait until Yuletired see's what you said about him

eagle eye · 10-05-2008 11:59pm

The Al Lad wrote: »

Wait until Yuletired see's what you said about him

I really thought it was cryptic enough for nobody to notice.:D

Ollieboy · 11-05-2008 12:11am

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Yes there are always two sides to each story, but I must say that I am finding Jay's side as put forth in this thread to be very convincing.

Jeez I hope your never put up for jury duty, heard one story and thats it, Guilty going home to play poker or watch telly.

I dont know where people are coming from with 2 sides to each story, you lend money to a friend, not a *** stranger, which I think ??? is besides the poker friendship. Was Jay wrong to lend, well yes he knows that now, was he right to ask for it back, yes. Is the person wrong to refuse to give it back, of course he his. Dont know how there's to sides, lend, get back, its really simple.

eagle eye · 11-05-2008 12:17am

Jayminator wrote: »

In answer to your comments in the locked thread Mr Eagle Eye. Fistly you dont know me nor do I know you, However I believe myself to be a throughly decent human being who would not post such a thread before I had not exhausted other avenues. You are entitled to your opinion about me and the thread I posted but to be honest I dont really care what your thoughts are of me.

The person in question does indeed have gambling issues and for that he needs help. The gambling issue I can understand and if the person came to me and said he was broke etc etc etc it would never have gone this far. My post serves 2 purposes, Firstly to shame the guy into possibly admitting he has a serious problem and secondly to ensure no other person lends him money ever again. There have been phone calls made around Dublin by someone asking people not to lend him money anymore.

I am also going through a difficult time financially (In business not poker) at the moment and I am not embarrassed to say it so I need this money repaid plain and simple. However when you have been made an eejit of on more than 1 occasion and have demanded the money back personnally on more than 1 occasion and been ignored then I resorted to the public thread.

A lot of this sh**te goes on in card rooms all over Dublin and I bet there are plenty of posters on this forum who are owed money and whom now believe they will never get that money back from whomever they lent it to. As I said in my post I still do have people in poker who I would help out if they were stuck but not to the extent or the amount that I lent this person. It was much more than a ''monkey'' by the way.

I previously resigned myself to the money being lost to a complete gambling degenerate and decided to put it down to experience but when I hear the guy is still playing live and online regularly and ignoring my requests I decided fk that I want the money back.

People who know me well through poker will know that this was indeed a last resort and I will not apologise for my thread as I will also treat Mr XYZ with the same contempt as he has treated my good nature. My generousity was taken advantage of in this case and I do not like nor will I tolerate eing made an idiot of.

And to end this post Mr Eagle I dont really want your respect as I ve never ever met you and well done on your confrontation with your cack addict. You are my hero

Firstly if you had put up a post something like this and not mentioned a name, I would not have been against you.

Its tough when something like this happens but I don't like this outing someone on a forum where there are countless unknowns reading your post and from who knows where.

I do understand that its not nice to be owed money by someone who shows total disrespect for you, I personally know of another individual who has carried on in the same manner as this, luckily I got my money back off him but there are many who have not.

I would also like to add that if you do intend to out someone, you should be prepared to use your own full name, as that would only be fair.

I would personally face the issue head on, i.e. wait until I see him playing in a cash game and call him aside and request my money right there and then, and if he does not deliver, I would inform him that I will be waiting until he cashes out and let him know he will not be leaving without making at least a part payment on what I am owed.

Finally, this post is more explanatory than the other one, and I will take back most of what I posted in the 'heat of the moment' on the original thread.

I hope your financial situation improves also.

ianmc38 · 11-05-2008 12:31am

Jay has every right to let people know this information. I don't know who it is, but he/she is obviously a degenerate gambler and needs help by the sounds of things.

11-05-2008 12:47am

If you choose to lend money to someone then that is a private arrangement between the two of you. Yes, you may be put in an awkward spot when someone asks you but if you have not got the strength of character to refuse them then you must accept the risks inherently involved in lending money to people where you have no legal recourse to get the money returned to you.

Using a public forum for a name and shame is frankly reprehensible. No matter how annoyed you may be at his failure to repay you, you would be better served by confronting him in public than using this method.

I am not saying you do not deserve your money back. I hope you do get it back, but surely there was a better way of going about it than this?

tipp86 · 11-05-2008 12:51am

Really think hes right in naming and shaming but do it by mouth he should have known it was never going to be allowed for here.

mormank · 11-05-2008 12:53am

goodluck2me wrote: »

Was it just when you went bald that you got bitter, or was it something you grew up with?

Ring Poker events?

I'll have you know I give Nicky O D and Padraig P very good cards in the day, none of this ex-pat rubbish, you barely have the accent, at least Padraig is famous.

true poker events are one of the debts i speak of. but the other is my old boss in the glod club in limerick. it was far more under handed imo and he took advantage of my naivity at the time and my good nature. asked several times for it back but to of no avail, also more than a monkey!! and twas wages mostly

eagle eye · 11-05-2008 12:55am

ianmc38 wrote: »

Jay has every right to let people know this information. I don't know who it is, but he/she is obviously a degenerate gambler and needs help by the sounds of things.

Naming and shaming on a public forum is not the way to go about helping someone with a serious addiction. This does not help anyone not the creditor nor debtor. The creditor came on here and got lambasted by a few people, and I'm sure that he is not happy about that. The debtor will undoubtedly hear about this, and who knows how he will take that news.
So tell me now what good has it done?

mormank · 11-05-2008 12:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

If you choose to lend money to someone then that is a private arrangement between the two of you. Yes, you may be put in an awkward spot when someone asks you but if you have not got the strength of character to refuse them then you must accept the risks inherently involved in lending money to people where you have no legal recourse to get the money returned to you.

Using a public forum for a name and shame is frankly reprehensible. No matter how annoyed you may be at his failure to repay you, you would be better served by confronting him in public than using this method.

I am not saying you do not deserve your money back. I hope you do get it back, but surely there was a better way of going about it than this?

i would have to completely disagree with this im afraid. especially after how certain ppl have been treated on public forums with name calling and abuse leading to lives being taken etc...naming and shaming is something im afraid you will have to put up with if you are a shameless d@@khead about not payin back debts..to say it is reprehensible or whatever is simply overstating it imo, i say public stoning personally.

you have obviously never been jay's position

Naming and Shaming bad debts = bad form?

Comments