Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

zeebre12 · 05-04-2020 12:56pm

killbillvol2 wrote: »

I think this will be the most likely scenario. This academic year will spill into next year slightly and next year will be somewhat condensed/start later. If some heads need to be banged together to get it done then so be it.

Can they not just push everything back a month or two. Same with college, start it later and finish it later. Why does college have to finish in April/May?

Corkgirl20 · 05-04-2020 1:15pm

zeebre12 wrote: »

Can they not just push everything back a month or two. Same with college, start it later and finish it later. Why does college have to finish in April/May?

Or else they could make the course more condensed for a year and finish up the same time. It’s only one year.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 05-04-2020 1:27pm

Corkgirl20 wrote: »

Or else they could make the course more condensed for a year and finish up the same time. It’s only one year.

You could condense units in a lot of college courses over year 1 & 2 and be back on track by year 3.

On schools, i wonder if they've looked at the idea of schools taking their summer break now with a view to a return (even if only for LCs) in August?

Very tuff on LCs to plan a peak in study with so much uncertainty, they cud at least plan with late July/August in mind.

Just an idea

Also, for school returns because distancing wud still be an issue until a vaccine you could assign particular days to juniors and seniors to reduce the number of students. For example, Monday, Wednesday, Friday for seniors and Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday for juniors. Reduce the length of the day to be able to sell Saturdays to teachers and you'd save time by cutting PE (wouldn't be advisable in current climate to be using dressing rooms etc) and religion. You'd reduce student population by half on those days then.

scrubs33 · 05-04-2020 2:52pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

You could condense units in a lot of college courses over year 1 & 2 and be back on track by year 3.

On schools, i wonder if they've looked at the idea of schools taking their summer break now with a view to a return (even if only for LCs) in August?

Very tuff on LCs to plan a peak in study with so much uncertainty, they cud at least plan with late July/August in mind.

Just an idea

Also, for school returns because distancing wud still be an issue until a vaccine you could assign particular days to juniors and seniors to reduce the number of students. For example, Monday, Wednesday, Friday for seniors and Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday for juniors. Reduce the length of the day to be able to sell Saturdays to teachers and you'd save time by cutting PE (wouldn't be advisable in current climate to be using dressing rooms etc) and religion. You'd reduce student population by half on those days then.

I know a small number of schools where PE would be the last to go. They see themselves as sports clubs with a school attached!! Seriously though I really hope the powers that be are working on some practical solution to get us back in classrooms in some guise.

jrmb · 05-04-2020 3:22pm

Treppen wrote: »

Just Google 'HPAT preparation' and see how balanced and fair it is (if you've the money)

What I've proposed bears no resemblance to the HPAT.

solerina · 05-04-2020 5:28pm

Corkgirl20 wrote: »

Can they not hold the Leaving Cert later in the year ( whenever things are good) let’s say for example August.

Scrap the Junior Cert , so there would be more correctors for the Leaving Cert Papers and more exam supervisors available if social distancing is needed. Schools have a hall and classrooms they can make use of and primary schools will be closed if they need further space.

I'm sure colleges could begin a month later and start in October or after the Halloween break giving plenty of time for corrections to be done.

From consultation with my students they just want to get on with the exam and they want it in June, they are already finding it difficult to stay motivated and can’t handle the thought of having to wait a full two months extra to sit their exams. Teachers are all supporting them online so they said they will be ready.
Anyway how would the exams be corrected if they were delayed until August ??

deiseindublin · 05-04-2020 6:39pm

In fairness though, it's pretty immaterial if the students all want the exams in June, it just can't happen with a pandemic. We'd all like life to resume as normal, but it's 99% unlikely to be an option.

ShamoBuc · 05-04-2020 7:35pm

We are about 8 weeks away from June. A lot can happen in 8 weeks.

TheDriver · 05-04-2020 7:53pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

We are about 8 weeks away from June. A lot can happen in 8 weeks.

Indeed. There's a lot of doomsday stuff going on out there. 3 weeks is going to be a long time, never mind 8.

rainbowtrout · 05-04-2020 8:00pm

TheDriver wrote: »

Indeed. There's a lot of doomsday stuff going on out there. 3 weeks is going to be a long time, never mind 8.

Yep, going on numbers from Spain and Italy in the last few days, it looks like they have passed their peak and numbers of new cases and deaths are consistently dropping. As would be expected from the measures put in place and general trends of epidemics. We are fortunate that our numbers are relatively low in comparison and while they might rise in the coming week or two, it's highly unlikely we'll be seeing numbers like 1000 cases per day. Our peak will come and it will decline but is has a much smaller fall to make than those countries.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 05-04-2020 8:31pm

ShamoBuc wrote: »

We are about 8 weeks away from June. A lot can happen in 8 weeks.

If we're playing the long game, 8 weeks is nothing.

You would also assume a call on the LC would have to be made in the next 4/5 weeks.
Would be very cruel to call it off the week before its due to start.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/coronavirus-lockdown-steps-could-remain-into-winter-says-expert-1.4221164?mode=amp

randylonghorn · 05-04-2020 9:06pm

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Would be very cruel to call it off the week before its due to start

I don't think that will be allowed to happen except in extraordinary circumstances, e.g. we seem to be getting on top of it, restrictions are eased, LC to go ahead and suddenly there is a new and serious infection spike.

Far more likely that we would have more clarity by around the end of April, even if it's outlining a couple of alternatives and a clear date by which the final decision will be made.

Couldn't see that being later than mid-May and I would expect it to be earlier tbh.

Dickie10 · 05-04-2020 9:18pm

i would imagine schools are going to remain closed no matter how low levels fall until next september. was talkin to a few school DPs there and they think sept for all bar leaving cert

Dickie10 · 05-04-2020 9:26pm

in the heel of the hunt i really hope this is the begining of the end of the leaving cert as we know it. horrible set up of a thing, has to be a better less stressful way to find college places for students. tbh i think we need to rethink how we operate 15-18 year old education. should be pathways into vocational and trades course after the junior cert at 15. theres a lot of people in school over age 15 that really shouldnt be there, some just not interested and others not suited. Why did they get rid of vocational schools in 90s and try to lump them into community schools. i think that was a bad move.

randylonghorn · 05-04-2020 9:39pm

I would agree that we seriously undervalue apprenticeships / vocational route in this country. I'd love to see us instituting a good range of new apprenticeships or equivalent qualifications with proper status.

I'm not so sure that a LC is ever a burden to anyone, and there are options like the Leaving Cert Applied in place.

rainbowtrout · 05-04-2020 11:57pm

Dickie10 wrote: »

should be pathways into vocational and trades course after the junior cert at 15. theres a lot of people in school over age 15 that really shouldnt be there, some just not interested and others not suited. Why did they get rid of vocational schools in 90s and try to lump them into community schools. i think that was a bad move.

I think one of the problems was the image of vocational schools. 'The tech' is for stupid people. You went to the tech or the CBS/Convent. They were perceived as inferior schools. There should be more emphasis placed on trades and apprenticeships, and I would like to see LCA given more prominence. Year after year I see students ( a lot of boys) who muddle through the LC, don't want to be there, can't see the point of it, and will go and do a trade afterwards. And they are great workers, but they are not cut out to sit at a desk all day long. They mainly choose the practical subjects, but still have to do Irish, English and Maths. While they need some English and Maths, they don't need Irish.

It would be interesting if an apprenticeship model could be developed for LC, a branch from LCA, where students could concentrate on practical subjects and do practical English, Maths and maybe some Business, given that many who go into trades will be self employed.

s1ippy · 06-04-2020 12:03am

Bobtheman wrote: »

You have a point but if they go ahead they'd want to check with their lawyers. I can see a multiple of possible cases.
We don't have broadband everywhere for a start.
Look I'm checking out of this thread as even the Department don't know at this stage. Don't believe the hook or by crook bull****. Remember politicians on the air telling us we ain't getting a bailout. Just as the Trokia were checking into their hotels.
We won't know for another month. Take care people. Teachers

The only reason the Internet isn't freely available in every home in the country right now as it is in other countries during this crisis is that a certain billionaire owns the telecoms network here. It's not exactly in his best interest that people have access to ideas and opinions that he doesn't want them seeing.

Wouldn't providing every household in the country with Internet access be a much more favourable maneuver than posting a virus-ridden piece of plastic in every door (what did generating that piece of rubbish cost I wonder?) But I guess we were forced to work with what we had - the poor beleaguered and overstretched postal staff.

Imagine if every student in the country could access lessons online.

Jim Gazebo · 06-04-2020 12:13am

My personal opinion now is just give the people a clear decision and a date. If pushing it back, so be it but give the students a date to work towards now. Don't leave it open ended. Very hard to study for something that may not happen.
I say that as someone still waiting a decision on final year college exams that start 5 weeks tomorrow. They can't decide if they need physical written exams or not for us.

VG31 · 06-04-2020 1:36am

s1ippy wrote: »

The only reason the Internet isn't freely available in every home in the country right now as it is in other countries during this crisis is that a certain billionaire owns the telecoms network here. It's not exactly in his best interest that people have access to ideas and opinions that he doesn't want them seeing.

I suppose George Soros is in on it as well.

never_mind · 06-04-2020 1:44am

Jim Gazebo wrote: »

My personal opinion now is just give the people a clear decision and a date. If pushing it back, so be it but give the students a date to work towards now. Don't leave it open ended. Very hard to study for something that may not happen.
I say that as someone still waiting a decision on final year college exams that start 5 weeks tomorrow. They can't decide if they need physical written exams or not for us.

Your college hasn’t migrated to online assessments?! That’s nuts.

SixtaWalthers · 06-04-2020 1:50am

I noticed many parents are preferring online lectures like tutions etc but I think it is the best time for kids to read good books. Books delivery like rental books should be opened.

Kid books writers should also uplift the copyright or priracy bans for a certain time just the writer of Harry Potter.

Treppen · 06-04-2020 9:04am

...aaaand the Independent are at it too:
https://amp.independent.ie/opinion/comment/when-everything-else-is-cancelled-its-cruel-to-insist-on-leaving-cert-39103513.html

Are there any balance pieces?

hots · 06-04-2020 9:47am

jrmb wrote: »

No employer has ever asked for my LC

Most milk rounds and big grad programmes used to require them anyway. Paddy Power had a 475 minimum for a while, regardless of 3rd level results.

Random sample · 06-04-2020 10:37am

Treppen wrote: »

...aaaand the Independent are at it too:
https://amp.independent.ie/opinion/comment/when-everything-else-is-cancelled-its-cruel-to-insist-on-leaving-cert-39103513.html

Are there any balance pieces?

I can only see the start of that. Does she offer an alternative for college entry?

I took by hook or by crook to mean that if we don’t have a leaving cert in June, we definitely will at a later date. I didn’t think he meant it had to run on the planned dates. Funny how different people hear it differently.

Jim Gazebo · 06-04-2020 11:31am

never_mind wrote: »

Your college hasn’t migrated to online assessments?! That’s nuts.

The college has but certain courses are still TBD. It's disappointing. Just have to wait and hope.

Bobtheman · 06-04-2020 12:11pm

Kids sometimes do much better than expected in an exam.If you go predicted grade then you have to have an appeal exam in the autumn.
That's the only practical solution now.
But we all know predicted grades are full of moral hazards here given there is no system in schools to objectively test your grade . Thus you have to have the appeal exam.

Bobtheman · 06-04-2020 12:58pm

If the Department create a bureaucratic nightmare with it then it won't work. I hope the unions are talking to the department

rosknight · 06-04-2020 1:41pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/hundreds-of-state-exam-students-awarded-estimated-grades-1.4141075

Predicted grades is nothing new to State Exams Commission.

political analyst · 06-04-2020 1:48pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-could-sit-deferred-exams-and-start-college-in-mid-autumn-1.4212116

It looks like the Junior Cert will be cancelled or deferred.

An unlikely option for dealing with the Leaving Cert issue is allowing students to progress to their chosen course without an exam and having a selection process at the end of the first year college exams. There's a similar system in Italy but there are doubts over whether it would work here.

Another option which has been discussed is running dramatically slimmed-down Leaving Cert with just maths and English exams, for example.

This on the basis that results in these exams are typically a strong predictor of academic performance at third level. However, a number of sources say the process could be unfair to many students and would struggle to win over public acceptance.

Another option which has been explored in the event that exams are cancelled is matriculation or US-style SAT exam or online assessment by third level colleges themselves.

However, senior higher education sources say there is a strong preference for using the existing Leaving Cert and CAO system. Another concerns is whether all students would have access to broadband.

In the UK, education authorities announced last week that A-level and GCSE exams have been cancelled and replaced with teacher-assessed grades based on students’prior performance.

Education sources say such a move is highly unlikely here as there is less cultural acceptance of teacher-assessed grades. This has also emerged as a major flashpoint with teachers’ unions in the past.

political analyst · 06-04-2020 1:50pm

s1ippy wrote: »

The only reason the Internet isn't freely available in every home in the country right now as it is in other countries during this crisis is that a certain billionaire owns the telecoms network here. It's not exactly in his best interest that people have access to ideas and opinions that he doesn't want them seeing.

Wouldn't providing every household in the country with Internet access be a much more favourable maneuver than posting a virus-ridden piece of plastic in every door (what did generating that piece of rubbish cost I wonder?) But I guess we were forced to work with what we had - the poor beleaguered and overstretched postal staff.

Imagine if every student in the country could access lessons online.

Britain has the same problem. So I don't see how you can blame a particular person for it.

mirrorwall14 · 06-04-2020 2:05pm

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-could-sit-deferred-exams-and-start-college-in-mid-autumn-1.4212116

It looks like the Junior Cert will be cancelled or deferred.

An unlikely option for dealing with the Leaving Cert issue is allowing students to progress to their chosen course without an exam and having a selection process at the end of the first year college exams. There's a similar system in Italy but there are doubts over whether it would work here.

To be honest Im starting to think that’s the best option. General entry for universities and option to repeat for free if preferred next year.

There are so many things wrong with this year I’m just not sure it’s a good idea to be holding it at all

There is precedent within particular courses already. There was general entry psychology in Maynooth when I came through but you had to be in the top 30 to get into second year otherwise you transferred to arts or science automatically

Gal2glam · 06-04-2020 2:21pm

political analyst wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/leaving-cert-students-could-sit-deferred-exams-and-start-college-in-mid-autumn-1.4212116

It looks like the Junior Cert will be cancelled or deferred.

An unlikely option for dealing with the Leaving Cert issue is allowing students to progress to their chosen course without an exam and having a selection process at the end of the first year college exams. There's a similar system in Italy but there are doubts over whether it would work here.

What an utter waste of money that would be

randylonghorn · 06-04-2020 5:13pm

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

There is precedent within particular courses already. There was general entry psychology in Maynooth when I came through but you had to be in the top 30 to get into second year otherwise you transferred to arts or science automatically

There would have been a cutoff for getting into first year Arts or whatever tho, just not as high a one as if they offered a specific psy stream.

Colleges are already stretched to cope with first year numbers even in terms of basic teaching space.

RealJohn · 06-04-2020 8:24pm

If there’s one thing I’ve learned from this thread, it’s how out of touch with reality a lot of people in this country, teachers included, are.

The leaving cert is not merely a college entrance exam. It’s state certification of the first fourteen (or so) years of your academic life. It means something. It stands for something significant, both in real value and in what it represents.

You must all be teaching in great schools with 99.9% university attendance after graduation, but for a lot of my students, the leaving cert is the highest level of education they’re going to reach, and I find it offensive that that’s being devalued, not just by Joe Duffy callers, but by other teachers.

I’m an educator. I am not a stooge for the CAO, spending 6 years on each of their little numbers so that they can process them into college places next August. I do not believe that my sole job as a teacher is to produce leaving cert results, but it sure as hell isn’t to produce college places.

beggars_bush · 06-04-2020 8:26pm

LC will be run
primary schools will most likely still be closed in June so their halls can be used as exam centres, same with community centre halls
will allow for greater distances between those sitting the exams

there is planning underway for all of this

wirelessdude01 · 06-04-2020 8:30pm

beggars_bush wrote: »

LC will be run
primary schools will most likely still be closed in June so their halls can be used as exam centres, same with community centre halls
will allow for greater distances between those sitting the exams

there is planning underway for all of this

You do know most primary schools don't have a hall.

randylonghorn · 06-04-2020 8:34pm

They don't have furniture of the right size either.

Probably easier to use hotel ballrooms / conference rooms it extra space needed tbh.

killbillvol2 · 06-04-2020 8:35pm

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You do know most primary schools don't have a hall.

Maybe the 'planning' includes building halls for them!

loyatemu · 06-04-2020 9:40pm

RealJohn wrote: »

If there’s one thing I’ve learned from this thread, it’s how out of touch with reality a lot of people in this country, teachers included, are.

The leaving cert is not merely a college entrance exam. It’s state certification of the first fourteen (or so) years of your academic life. It means something. It stands for something significant, both in real value and in what it represents.

You must all be teaching in great schools with 99.9% university attendance after graduation, but for a lot of my students, the leaving cert is the highest level of education they’re going to reach, and I find it offensive that that’s being devalued, not just by Joe Duffy callers, but by other teachers.

I’m an educator. I am not a stooge for the CAO, spending 6 years on each of their little numbers so that they can process them into college places next August. I do not believe that my sole job as a teacher is to produce leaving cert results, but it sure as hell isn’t to produce college places.

Hopefully this lockdown is a once-in-a-lifetime event, but nonetheless it exposes the lack of progress that has been made in reforming the LC, that the whole of your school life mostly boils down to 10 days of exams at age 18.

This wouldn't be such a major issue now if students final results were based on their progress over a longer period of time, via continuous assessment or however that's achieved. This was recognised as an issue when I did the LC. 25 years later, here we are.

Dickie10 · 06-04-2020 10:11pm

yep madness there should be so much riding on LC exams there should be continous assessment in subjects, do modules during 5th and 6th year do a module per term do christmas exams pass them and ban your points along the way.

jrmb · 06-04-2020 11:05pm

Dickie10 wrote: »

yep madness there should be so much riding on LC exams there should be continous assessment in subjects, do modules during 5th and 6th year do a module per term do christmas exams pass them and ban your points along the way.

For A levels in the UK, there are usually 4 components per subject, and each students has one assessment per subject in January and June each year. If a student decides not to keep a subject up after the first year, they can still get credit for the first half. If a student's grade in one component is sub-par, they only have to repeat that component. Their university access points have to come from the same three-year window. There isn't much that we should copy from the British system, but an assessment and points arrangement like theirs would be a great move.

spurious · 06-04-2020 11:06pm

Dickie10 wrote: »

yep madness there should be so much riding on LC exams there should be continous assessment in subjects, do modules during 5th and 6th year do a module per term do christmas exams pass them and ban your points along the way.

This (or most of it) already exists for the LCA. It is externally moderated though, not just in house.

deiseindublin · 06-04-2020 11:23pm

LCA is actually harder in parts though, no regular LC student has to have 90% attendance to pass.

I always think it should be a little bit more outcome based, or less black and white on attendance anyway. 90% is such a high benchmark in some schools.

Monumental · 06-04-2020 11:38pm

If the leaving cert goes ahead don't forget the students who need private bus transport, don't think they can accommodate social distancing , so extra buses would be required ,would they be willing to put on extra buses or transport students to different locations

s1ippy · 06-04-2020 11:46pm

rosknight wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/hundreds-of-state-exam-students-awarded-estimated-grades-1.4141075

Predicted grades is nothing new to State Exams Commission.

Aw that's scummy about bereaved students having to sit exams... especially when other students got estimates when they were "distracted by ants". That's my band name now.

political analyst wrote: »

Britain has the same problem. So I don't see how you can blame a particular person for it.

The tech oligarchy is led there by Richard Branson and he's looking for a huge bailout of his airline so I doubt he's feeling especially generous.

Surely you've heard of Nicola Tesla and his wacky ideas about free access to power and technology. Have a look if you genuinely think there are impediments to this access that can't be easily lifted. Scoff and "George Soros" all you want, there are Loom balloons all over Africa providing their good citizens with Internet and there are people in Roscommon and rural places in the UK who can't even connect to the Internet on a dial-up.

Dickie10 · 07-04-2020 12:00am

Listening to the radio this evening its looking like August for Leaving cert. Not a hope exams will go ahead in early June. I have a feeling we will be in lockdown until mid may.

Monumental · 07-04-2020 12:35am

Dickie10 wrote: »

Listening to the radio this evening its looking like August for Leaving cert. Not a hope exams will go ahead in early June. I have a feeling we will be in lockdown until mid may.

How in God's name do we keep leaving cert students motivated until August ,so many areas with limited internet access ,they are being left high and dry

rainbowtrout · 07-04-2020 12:51am

Professor Aine Hyland spoke on the 6-1 news this evening about how the LC needed to go ahead for all the reasons mentioned on this thread already, but was also asked about alternative forms of assessment, the old style matric exam and the predicted grades favoured by the ISSU. She went through the reasons rationally why they won't work. She was asked about students disadvantaged by lack of access to technology/internet and she said that if students don't get to sit the LC those disadvantaged students will be further disadvantaged. I thought she spoke very well.

https://www.rte.ie/news/education/2020/0406/1128910-expert-stresses-importance-of-leaving-cert-going-ahead/

deiseindublin · 07-04-2020 1:19am

Áine Hyland always talks sense, and has been championing the cause of educational disadvantage for a long time.

r93kaey5p2izun · 07-04-2020 1:37am

Yes Aine Hyland knows what she's talking about. I agree with her. The LC is the best system as it stands and it needs to happen in some form if at all possible. And she is also correct that disadvantaged students will be affected more than others and steps will need to be taken to try to address that as much as possible. But it will have to be acknowledged that some are losing out more. But really, what if holdng the LC poses too great a health risk right up to Autumn? What is her proposal then? Health concerns have to drive any decision made, so alternatives need to be discussed in case it can't go ahead by September. That's just being realistic. And I'm disappointed she wasn't asked about that because I would value her opinion on it.

Schools closed until undetermined date - was March 29th

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