When it's ok to break a red light!?

miyoung · 05-10-2019 5:40pm #1

Hi,

I wonder if anybody has any experience of the following scenario which resulted in a collision. My name driver (ND) was driving through a T junction on the green light from the minor road onto the major road. On entering the main road the ND was immediately confronted by a set of red lights - 2nd set of lights beyond the junction on the main road - and so stopped immediately. Coming immediately behind her a car rear ended her causing a significant amount of damage to both vehicles.

Because my ND was rear-ended as they stopped at a red light I assumed that liability would rest with the third party (TP). My view is that it appears that the third party did not observe the two-second rule as set in out the RSA Rules of the Road which states “f you drive too close to the vehicle in front (tailgating) and it brakes suddenly, you may not have enough time to react. If you run into the vehicle, you will be liable for any damage caused”.

However, the TP is claiming that my ND stopped when it was unsafe to do so and is disputing liability.

I'd be interested if anybody has experience with this scenario?

Plumbthedepths · 05-10-2019 5:43pm

miyoung wrote: »

Hi,

I wonder if anybody has any experience of the following scenario which resulted in a collision. My name driver (ND) was driving through a T junction on the green light from the minor road onto the major road. On entering the main road the ND was immediately confronted by a set of red lights - 2nd set of lights beyond the junction on the main road - and so stopped immediately. Coming immediately behind her a car rear ended her causing a significant amount of damage to both vehicles.

Because my ND was rear-ended as they stopped at a red light I assumed that liability would rest with the third party (TP). My view is that it appears that the third party did not observe the two-second rule as set in out the RSA Rules of the Road which states “f you drive too close to the vehicle in front (tailgating) and it brakes suddenly, you may not have enough time to react. If you run into the vehicle, you will be liable for any damage caused”.

However, the TP is claiming that my ND stopped when it was unsafe to do so and is disputing liability.

I'd be interested if anybody has experience with this scenario?

TP is chancing their arm as they drove into the back of ND, they were driving without due care and attention. Red lights mean stop, it's never ok to break them.

Del2005 · 05-10-2019 5:43pm

Your insurance company will sort it out and you have already agreed to them settling as they want to.

You aren't clear with your description. Did the person you know stop at the traffic lights for the man road or another set slightly further down the road? Not that it matters as the other driver should have left enough room to stop.

Irishphotodesk · 05-10-2019 5:47pm

In general if you hit the back of another vehicle it's your fault.

Sorry to nitpick but the rules of the road do not have a 2 second rule, it's a common concept but isn't a rule.

Just to point out that if the person who crashed into the back could also face criminal charges of driving without due care and attention.

Irishphotodesk · 05-10-2019 5:51pm

Also...ensure your ND gets fully checked out for any muscle strains and aches that they have.... Don't settle with insurance company too fast, especially if there are aches/strains.

Tazzimus · 05-10-2019 5:51pm

Was the red light for the traffic on the main road, or further down the road after the junction?

If it was the red light for traffic on the main road, both parties are at fault. If it was further past the junction, then it's the other drivers fault for tailgating.

miyoung · 05-10-2019 6:13pm

Tazzimus wrote: »

Was the red light for the traffic on the main road, or further down the road after the junction?

If it was the red light for traffic on the main road, both parties are at fault. If it was further past the junction, then it's the other drivers fault for tailgating.

Thanks for the comments. The inference is that in the case that the red light is for traffic on the main road, it's ok for those turning onto the main road to brake this red light?

beertons · 05-10-2019 6:16pm

2 second rule? It's not like food hitting the floor. And at that, it's 5-10 seconds, depending on whether you have a pet or not.

miyoung · 05-10-2019 6:16pm

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

In general if you hit the back of another vehicle it's your fault.

Sorry to nitpick but the rules of the road do not have a 2 second rule, it's a common concept but isn't a rule.

Just to point out that if the person who crashed into the back could also face criminal charges of driving without due care and attention.

Thanks for your comments - I too remember the TV adds regarding the two second rule and understood it as a convenient slogan to communicate the need to leave enough space/time with the vehicle in front, but the quote is taken directly from the RSA Rules of the Road.

Tazzimus · 05-10-2019 6:21pm

miyoung wrote: »

Thanks for the comments. The inference is that in the case that the red light is for traffic on the main road, it's ok for those turning onto the main road to brake this red light?

It's meant for the traffic on the main road you're turning onto, if it's the one I'm thinking of. Main road has a set of lights either side of the junction, that red light is for them, not traffic turning onto the road.

thelawman · 05-10-2019 6:28pm

miyoung wrote: »

Thanks for the comments. The inference is that in the case that the red light is for traffic on the main road, it's ok for those turning onto the main road to brake this red light?

You are not breaking the 2nd red light, that light only applies to those already on the main road, if you’ve stopped for that light then your in a whole different situation

brendane · 05-10-2019 6:40pm

What red light are you talking about that your ND stopped at. If it is the one I am thinking of then it will be joint liability.

To clear it up. When your ND was coming out from the secondary road turning right, there would have been a green light straight in front of her, facing towards the secondary road. As she moved across the 1st lane of the main road there would have been traffic stopped to her left in the lane she would have been joining. There would have been a red light for these stopped cars on either side of the secondary road from which your ND was emerging from. Both these lights would be facing down the main road. One of these red lights would have been on your ND's left hand side which she wouldn't have been able to see the colour of and one would have been on her right which she would have seen. If she emerged from the secondary road and crossed the first lane (where the traffic would have been travelling from her right to get left) and started to turn right but stopped in the middle of the junction because of the red light that wad clearly for traffic on the main road that was already stopped, then she is partly to blame and was careless

whomitconcerns · 05-10-2019 9:19pm

Previous is correct. Your named driver stopped for no reason while performing a manouvere, the other party is in the wrong for not paying attention but your named drivers lack of understanding of the rules is a contributory factor, so will be a 50/50 possibly and will cost you money....

hullaballoo · 06-10-2019 11:26am

The fascination of barstoolers with attaching arbitrary but very convenient liability apportionment is always interesting to watch.

We start out with poster #1 saying liability is 100% with the OP or the third party depending. Then poster #2 will say liability is 100% the other way. Before long, liability somehow seems to always be split 50:50.

What about a 5%/95% split, no? There's a little bit of contributory negligence if the OP's named driver stopped at the red light that was for the traffic on the main road. A completely idiotic thing to do but hardly crime of the century. It's also quite common. The third party was clearly going too fast and or paying no attention and or too close to the named driver if they were unable to avoid a collision in the circumstances set out by the OP.

I presume we aren't dealing with supersonic speeds here either which might compound the wrongdoing of the third party tbh as it tends to be a bit more clear cut in terms of liability at lower speeds.

whomitconcerns · 06-10-2019 4:39pm

Equally could be said the first driver was driving without due care and attention. Definitely not crime of the century... But a major reason for the incident. Maybe it wouldn't get to a 50/50. But it's definitely not all on the 3rd party by a long shot.

Although if the police weren't involved at the time... Then possibly no "driving without due care and attention" took place.

Insurance companies can fight it out....

06-10-2019 4:42pm

it sounds very likely that the driver in this instance looked at a set of reds that clearly didnt apply to them (having just turned into that road) and braked in error

id say they have a fair amount of culpability in that instance

djan · 06-10-2019 4:48pm

This isn't coming from any legal basis but IMO if someone crashes into the back of you, it shouod always be their fault no matter what.

The amount of people tailgating astounds me. Don't know why so many people blindly trust others with their life (especially on motorways) when it's obvious that with human reaction time it's impossible to stop in time..

I hope that this would be the case if it goes to court.

ontheditch2 · 06-10-2019 4:59pm

It is something I've noticed a lot of lately.
The red lights that the ND stopped at were not for the ND but the traffic waiting on the main route.
Personally, their is a fair degree of fault from both.
The ND stopping like that is dangerous driving. What the ND did, is essentially the same as coming to a stop at the main road for no reason. Putting themselves and everyone else in danger.

Their interpretation that the red light was for them was incorrect and they should not of stopped.

Obviously, the TP wasn't going that fast but didn't expect the car in front to stop like that.

triggermortis · 06-10-2019 5:10pm

Sounds like the ND stopped when she didn't need to to me, but the car behind should have left enough room to avoid a collision. She could have stopped at any time for any reason and it's up to the car behind not to plough into her. I'd say 100% fault of the car following

chooseusername · 06-10-2019 5:14pm

ontheditch2 wrote: »

It is something I've noticed a lot of lately.
The red lights that the ND stopped at were not for the ND but the traffic waiting on the main route.
Personally, their is a fair degree of fault from both.
The ND stopping like that is dangerous driving. What the ND did, is essentially the same as coming to a stop at the main road for no reason. Putting themselves and everyone else in danger.

Their interpretation that the red light was for them was incorrect and they should not of stopped.

Obviously, the TP wasn't going that fast but didn't expect the car in front to stop like that.

What if a child stepped out that the TP could not see?
The following car should leave enough space in which to stop,regardless of the reason.
"A significant amount of damage" to me means TP was going too fast

the_syco · 06-10-2019 5:23pm

It sounds like this junction, where the light for cars on the side road is green, but the light for cars on the main road is red.

It sounds like the ND went forward, and then stopped for no reason, thinking that the red light for the cars on the main road applied to her.

A significant amount of damage

According to who? The damage, or the labour costs? Or both?

Tazzimus · 06-10-2019 5:25pm

triggermortis wrote: »

I'd say 100% fault of the car following

That's simply untrue.
It may not be 50 50 but blame is on both parties.

punisher5112 · 06-10-2019 5:29pm

This could also be seen as a crash for cash....

Shocking how bad some are.

They get a green move off then stop in the middle of the junction because they see a red man light or the lights for the other road....

This is actually very dangerous and if they don't understand the lights they shouldn't be driving or not alone.

fritzelly · 06-10-2019 5:44pm

the_syco wrote: »

It sounds like this junction, where the light for cars on the side road is green, but the light for cars on the main road is red.

It sounds like the ND went forward, and then stopped for no reason, thinking that the red light for the cars on the main road applied to her.

That junction you should be stopping on the red on the main road regardless where you came from

Was there a stop line at the lights? There are plenty of badly placed lights on the roads

Tazzimus · 06-10-2019 5:46pm

fritzelly wrote: »

That junction you should be stopping on the red on the main road regardless where you came from

Was there a stop line at the lights? There are plenty of badly placed lights on the roads

If it's a t junction with lights on both sides of the junction for the main road traffic, and you're turning onto it, those red lights don't apply and you shouldn't be stopping, that's how accidents occur.

Guy:Incognito · 06-10-2019 5:51pm

Tazzimus wrote: »

If it was the red light for traffic on the main road,

I see this so often lately. Idiots getting a green light at a junction, turning left or right then stopping dead at the light thats for the traffic being stopped to let them go.

Never come close to a crash but stupidity like this is ridiculous. Why do they think theyd be given a green light to go only as far as the middle of the junction itself then stop till the traffic on the main road can go again? A 30-40 second light to allow 1 car through?
I genuinely despair at the state of driving I encounter on a daily basis.

miyoung wrote: »

Thanks for the comments. The inference is that in the case that the red light is for traffic on the main road, it's ok for those turning onto the main road to brake this red light?

Youre not breaking a light, its not for you. If that was the case, every car would be breaking the lights at a huge amount of junctions.

whomitconcerns · 06-10-2019 5:57pm

Leaving East point business park is a good example. Turning right there are a set of lights applying to the main road and people regularly drive out of East point and come to a sudden stop. Cue multitude of beeping while they wonder why they are being "pushed to break a red light"

HeidiHeidi · 06-10-2019 6:02pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Leaving East point business park is a good example. Turning right there are a set of lights applying to the main road and people regularly drive out of East point and come to a sudden stop. Cue multitude of beeping while they wonder why they are being "pushed to break a red light"

Same on Cork St at the Lidl when you turn left out of Donore Ave. Drives me nuts!

ontheditch2 · 06-10-2019 6:04pm

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

I genuinely despair at the state of driving I encounter on a daily basis.

This. There are just some brutal drivers out there. Simple as that and the ND is one of these people. Lacking an understanding of basic driving rules

NotToScale · 06-10-2019 6:11pm

I got a taxi the other day in Dublin and the driver broke no less than 6 sets of l lights on full red. There's a serious issue developing where people are just expecting cars to jump the lights and it wasn't a thing a few years ago. I remember not so long ago you'd have had people beeping if someone broke the lights, but not anymore.

I've sailed gently up to an amber light and came to a stop and I've had drivers practically stand on the horn when I did.

It's unfortunate, but we're going to end to needing cameras on the junctions as the driving culture has definitely changed.

I'm actually starting to wonder if it's those super bright, snappy LED lights. The older ones always kinda changed softly and there was less sense of urgency. Wonder if there's a psychological effect?

But legally speaking, I would assume you're supposed to be driving at a speed and with sufficient distance to stop. I never understand how you get these very severe smash ups in the middle of city centres in 30 and 50kmh zones. It shouldn't be possible unless lots of people are breaking the speed limit and tailgating.

chooseusername · 06-10-2019 7:13pm

the_syco wrote: »

It sounds like this junction, where the light for cars on the side road is green, but the light for cars on the main road is red.

It sounds like the ND went forward, and then stopped for no reason, thinking that the red light for the cars on the main road applied to her.

According to who? The damage, or the labour costs? Or both?

The red light on the main road were for the ND and so they should have stopped .
edit;
as pointed out by Fritzelly above.

When it's ok to break a red light!?

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