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Catalan independence referendum, 2017

24567…48

Comments

  • #52
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    I seriously doubt many will go against an established European nation like Spain

    It was easy to recognize Kosovo over the the evil Serbia in the war torn Balkans, far less chance of countries recognizing an Iberian breakaway states.
    Especially when we are all maintaining a united front against the UK and brexit and there are so many potential breakaway regions in Europe


  • #53
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    When you say "breakaway" you need to distinguish between a region leaving the EU (like the UK) and a region wanting to stay in it (like Catalonia).

    If the latter, then why would the EU seek to punish it by evicting it from the EU?
    In theory the EU should be able to provide a good framework in which lots of small states can co-exist and work together.

    If the long term ideal is to consolidate the existing nation states into one big superstate, then it makes sense to discourage the formation of even smaller states. But not many Europeans actually want the superstate.


  • #54
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    ...why would the EU seek to punish it by evicting it from the EU?

    It's amazing how often this remedial-level point needs to be made about the EU, but: the EU consists of its member states.

    When people ask disingenuous questions like "why would the EU want to...?", it's usually because they're carefully avoiding the much more apt question of "why would the EU's member states want to...?"

    So: why would the EU's member states want to avoid separatist movements within the Union's member states?

    If you still can't understand, I'm sure it could be dumbed down further.


  • #55
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It's amazing how often this remedial-level point needs to be made about the EU, but: the EU consists of its member states.
    That's a fair point, and very apt in this context.

    But what I am getting at is the EU is actually more than that. It represents its citizens. For example it upholds human rights and protects the environment within member states, even when the member state itself is the defendant, or the guilty party, in violation of these.
    Also it has a parliament of directly elected MEPs. These are supposed to specifically represent the citizens of Europe, and not the member states.

    It would be correct to say the Council of Ministers within the EU represents "the current governments" of the member states.

    Then there is the European Commision.
    And there is a certain amount of tension between all of the above bodies.
    European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has launched a bitter attack on members of the European Parliament for failing to show up.
    Standing up in almost empty chamber in Strasbourg, he denounced the body as "ridiculous, totally ridiculous".
    Estimating the number of MEPs present at about 30, he said it proved that the parliament was "not serious".
    Parliament President Antonio Tajani reacted furiously, accusing him of a lack of respect.
    "You can criticise the Parliament, but it's not the Commission's job to control the parliament, it's the Parliament that has to control the Commission," he said.


  • #56
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    recedite wrote: »
    That's a fair point, and very apt in this context.

    But what I am getting at is the EU is actually more than that. It represents its citizens. For example it upholds human rights and protects the environment within member states, even when the member state itself is the defendant, or the guilty party, in violation of these.
    Also it has a parliament of directly elected MEPs. These are supposed to specifically represent the citizens of Europe, and not the member states.

    It would be correct to say the Council of Ministers within the EU represents "the current governments" of the member states.

    Then there is the European Commision.
    And there is a certain amount of tension between all of the above bodies.

    All of that is irrelevant. Each member state has a veto and Spain and others with veto membership forever and a day. Catalonia isn't a successor state. Like Scotland they'll be at the back of the queue.


  • #57
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,393 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    All of that is irrelevant. Each member state has a veto and Spain and others with veto membership forever and a day. Catalonia isn't a successor state. Like Scotland they'll be at the back of the queue.

    They would not even be in the queue.

    EU countries will not be willing to recognize a Catalan state if Spain will not.

    They will not exist in the eyes of most if not all EU countries.

    An independent Scotland would be recognized by EU countries as Westminster would have facilitated the referendum in the first place.


  • #58
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    EU countries will not be willing to recognize a Catalan state if Spain will not.
    Ireland's first Dail was not recognised by other countries either. But we persisted as an independent nation.

    The fact is, its not up to other countries to decide.
    “No man has the right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation. No man has the right to say to his country, thus far shalt thou go and no further.” -C.S. Parnell


  • #59
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    recedite wrote: »
    Ireland's first Dail was not recognised by other countries either. But we persisted as an independent nation.

    The fact is, its not up to other countries to decide.
    “No man has the right to fix the boundary to the march of a nation. No man has the right to say to his country, thus far shalt thou go and no further.” -C.S. Parnell
    How long do you think they could exist in the international wilderness?


  • #60
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    How long do you think it would take other countries to recognise their independence?
    Would the EU withdraw their rights as EU citizens?
    How persistent are the Catalans?
    I don't know the answers to these questions. Nobody does.


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  • #61
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    recedite wrote: »
    How long do you think it would take other countries to recognise their independence?
    Spain may never recognise it


  • #62
    bennyineire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Spain may never recognise it
    Nope and can't afford to either, if the Catalan referendum is successful (big if) then surly the Basque question will follow after which would involve France, then this would surly embolden Corsica and then what of Belgium.

    E.U. will block this as hard as they can make no doubt about that


  • #63
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Belgium is dysfunctional as a single country. If it had two separate regional parliaments instead, things would run much more smoothly for them.
    The EU is ideally positioned as an umbrella to facilitate this sort of thing to happen in a peaceful and orderly way, and without new hard borders appearing.


  • #64
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    recedite wrote: »
    Belgium is dysfunctional as a single country. If it had two separate regional parliaments instead, things would run much more smoothly for them.
    The EU is ideally positioned as an umbrella to facilitate this sort of thing to happen in a peaceful and orderly way, and without new hard borders appearing.

    And what about East Prussia or former Hungarian lands can they rejoin the homeland if they vote for it?


  • #65
    bennyineire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    And what about East Prussia or former Hungarian lands can they rejoin the homeland if they vote for it?

    There aint no East Prussians left in what was East Prussia, they all moved (or killed in WW2) to what we know as Germany today


  • #66
    feargale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    bennyineire wrote: »
    Nope and can't afford to either, if the Catalan referendum is successful (big if) then surly the Basque question will follow after which would involve France, then this would surly embolden Corsica and then what of Belgium.

    E.U. will block this as hard as they can make no doubt about that

    Yes, the EU, which without full justification imagines itself to be a great bastion of democracy, probably will obstruct the democratically expressed will of these peoples just as they would have done to us if we hadn't jumped before they were born. What I want to know is this: Is there a GPO in Barcelona?


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  • #67
    feargale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    And what about East Prussia or former Hungarian lands can they rejoin the homeland if they vote for it?

    Why not? Would you have a problem with that?


  • #68
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    feargale wrote: »
    Why not? Would you have a problem with that?

    It would almost certainly lead to the break up of the EU and war if the vote was illegal


  • #69
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    feargale wrote: »
    Yes, the EU, which without full justification imagines itself to be a great bastion of democracy, probably will obstruct the democratically expressed will of these peoples...

    By what mechanism do you believe the EU will obstruct such a democratically-expressed will?


  • #70
    CroFag
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭CroFag


    I'm afraid will peace prevail if both sides, Barcelona & Madrid, stay on these hard positions.

    From a a perspective of a rich western Yugoslav republic, Croatian independence gained in 1991 ended up in a bloodshed that took 15.000 lives and destroyed our society, economy and most importantly human ties.

    Knowing there is a big spanish minority in a Catalan society, I'm very worried.

    Btw. My travel plans for Catalonia are now delayed.


  • #71
    bennyineire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    CroFag wrote: »
    I'm afraid will peace prevail if both sides, Barcelona & Madrid, stay on these hard positions.

    From a a perspective of a rich western Yugoslav republic, Croatian independence gained in 1991 ended up in a bloodshed that took 15.000 lives and destroyed our society, economy and most importantly human ties.

    Knowing there is a big spanish minority in a Catalan society, I'm very worried.

    Btw. My travel plans for Catalonia are now delayed.

    Complete over reaction by you IMHO, can't compare situations


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  • #72
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    And what about East Prussia or former Hungarian lands can they rejoin the homeland if they vote for it?
    Now that you mention it, I don't think Vienna ever gave permission for an independent Hungary, did they? Not that it matters now.

    But just because Madrid, Vienna and London were once at the centre of vast empires, it does not mean they they always will be.

    Austria is probably at its natural size now, going by the population demographics of the people who are actually Austrian, maybe its just slightly smaller than it should be.
    Spain is maybe still just a little bit bigger than it natural size.


  • #73
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    An Ciarraioch wrote: »
    The most recent poll showed that 84% of Catalans approved the holding of such a vote (49% unilaterally, 35% a negotiated referendum), but the outcome remains too close to call (48% Yes, 40% No - 54/46 when undecideds were allocated).

    I have to say, I really like to see this kind of phenomenon - those favouring the status quo by and large still believing that the people should have the final say, even if it means their side might lose. Supporting the will of the people prevailing above one's own preferences if they differ is not something one sees all that frequently in politics - look at Brexit for example, in which a very large number of anti-Brexit young people started ranting on social media that democracy was a bad thing, that the people shouldn't have ever been asked to choose, or even that one should require a certain level of education before being allowed to vote - summed up as "we didn't get what we want, f*ck democracy".

    If I'm interpreting the Catalonian opinion poll correctly, it would appear that a belief in self-determination prevails, regardless of where people stand on the issue of independence.


  • #74
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    ...look at Brexit for example, in which a very large number of anti-Brexit young people started ranting on social media that democracy was a bad thing, that the people shouldn't have ever been asked to choose...

    If you're looking for an exemplar of the beauty of direct democracy in action, you couldn't have picked a much worse example than Brexit. I just don't get this slavish worship of democracy, to the extent of defending the absolute hair-brained stupidity of holding the Brexit referendum on the basis that it doesn't matter if the country is permanently and irreparably damaged; it's what a bare majority of those who voted thought they wanted at the time, therefore it's unarguably the right thing to do.

    I'm not arguing that Catalonia shouldn't have a referendum; I'm pointing out that Brexit is almost as perfect an example as you could hope to find of why referendums are a terrible idea.


  • #75
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    recedite wrote: »
    There is no rule in EU law to say whether the citizens of a successor state retain EU membership or not.
    The UN is more clear about it; “if a state is a continuator state then its UN membership will continue, whereas a new state must be formally admitted to membership”.

    As there is no clear rule within the EU, the matter would be decided by other EU politicians doing deals with each other, but Spain would have more political clout than Catalan (both being continuator/successor states).

    Catalonia would not be a continuator state. It would be the successor state and Spain would be the continuator state.
    As per the The Creation of States, the continuator state is the one which retains the legal personality and treaty obligations of the previous state, with only changes to its border. The successor state, which has broken away from the continuing state assumes a new legal personality and a 'clean slate' with regard to treaty obligations etc


  • #76
    eire4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,767 ✭✭✭eire4


    CroFag wrote: »
    I'm afraid will peace prevail if both sides, Barcelona & Madrid, stay on these hard positions.

    From a a perspective of a rich western Yugoslav republic, Croatian independence gained in 1991 ended up in a bloodshed that took 15.000 lives and destroyed our society, economy and most importantly human ties.

    Knowing there is a big spanish minority in a Catalan society, I'm very worried.

    Btw. My travel plans for Catalonia are now delayed.

    IMHO the 2 situations are not analogous and I would not be delaying any plans to visit Catalonia. I have visited there myself and Barcelona is a wonderful beautiful city and I have other family who have been on holidays twice there this year and they loved it also.


  • #77
    feargale
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If you're looking for an exemplar of the beauty of direct democracy in action, you couldn't have picked a much worse example than Brexit. I just don't get this slavish worship of democracy, to the extent of defending the absolute hair-brained stupidity of holding the Brexit referendum on the basis that it doesn't matter if the country is permanently and irreparably damaged;

    That was precisely the "justification" used by Pinochet and his thugs and his shady CIA friends to overthrow a democratically elected government in Chile.

    oscarBravo wrote: »
    it's what a bare majority of those who voted thought they wanted at the time, therefore it's unarguably the right thing to do.

    And you would trump that with a bare minority? Queen Victoria would like you. She said something similar.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I'm not arguing that Catalonia shouldn't have a referendum; I'm pointing out that Brexit is almost as perfect an example as you could hope to find of why referendums are a terrible idea.

    Indeed. The fuhrers know best.


  • #78
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    If you're looking for an exemplar of the beauty of direct democracy in action, you couldn't have picked a much worse example than Brexit. I just don't get this slavish worship of democracy, to the extent of defending the absolute hair-brained stupidity of holding the Brexit referendum on the basis that it doesn't matter if the country is permanently and irreparably damaged; it's what a bare majority of those who voted thought they wanted at the time, therefore it's unarguably the right thing to do.

    I'm not arguing that Catalonia shouldn't have a referendum; I'm pointing out that Brexit is almost as perfect an example as you could hope to find of why referendums are a terrible idea.

    I'm not making a comment on Brexit either way, just the reaction to it from some in my own generation. People spouted all kinds of horribly fascist sh!te because the result didn't go their way, which I actually found genuinely alarming - suggesting everything from an upper age limit for voting (because older people won't have as long to put up with the consequences of their votes) to requiring a certain level of education (so essentially classism). One can debate the Brexit vote and its aftermath, but can we agree that this sort of reaction to it is rather disturbing? I don't think I've ever seen quite so much "this is why old / uneducated / ordinary people shouldn't be allowed to vote in the first place" style commentary in my entire life as I did in the few days immediately following the Brexit vote.

    You get similar vibes from the "antifa" and "not my president" movements in America - we didn't get the result we wanted, ergo we need to actually change the system to make sure this can't happen again, rather than actually being gracious losers and accepting that our side simply didn't do a good enough job of campaigning... It just doesn't sit well with me at all.


  • #79
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Catalonia would not be a continuator state. It would be the successor state and Spain would be the continuator state...
    Its also possible to have two successor states, or none. Largely depending on what the states themselves want to do.
    The EU has no specific rules on it... yet.

    But some thought has gone into it. This learned opinion seems quite a reasonable one to me.
    either both new States will become new Members or the remaining State will continue the membership (with necessary modifications) while the separated State will become a new Member. No part of the State would have left the EU not even for a moment.


  • #80
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    :
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    .. referendums are a terrible idea.
    And there are people with the opposite opinion to you on any given subject, who also think they know what is best for everybody. And also think referendums are a terrible idea.
    Democracy ain't perfect, but its the best system available.
    Until the artificial intelligence takes over; then its all moot anyway :pac:


  • #81
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    In the Crimean referendum, Kiev did not authorise it, but the result was guaranteed by Russian troops who had been stationed at Sevastopol, since forever.
    recedite wrote: »
    The fact is, its not up to other countries to decide.
    We've been over this a few times before, but the Crimean referendum wasn't in any way democratic - it was held in violation of the law of the region; it was held without any oversight by competent, honest or reliable international authorities; there was no register of voters; the vote was ignored by substantial portions of the available electorate; there were innumerable reports of voter fraud; the vote was not counted reliably; the referendum question was unclear; one side was prevented from campaigning while the other used hysterical propaganda; there were multiple accounts of voter intimidation; the referendum was held by vote of the regional parliament while it was being threatened by the Russian military; there was no balanced debate nor the time to have one; the region was flooded with invading Russian soldiers; once the "independence" referendum was held, the regional parliament immediately applied to "join" the Russian Federation which , shortly afterwards, made talk of secession from the RF a criminal offence.

    I don't quite see how you can reconcile your view that it's up to each country to decide its own future with the theft of Crimea on the back of a flamboyantly fake referendum process.

    Not that I'd expect the Spanish to behave like Russia - landing thousands of unmarked soldiers in Barcelona and take over the regional parliament :)


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  • #82
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    And there are people with the opposite opinion to you on any given subject, who also think they know what is best for everybody. And also think referendums are a terrible idea.
    You seem to be mistaking me for someone who thinks he knows what's best for everybody.

    And, yes: it's possible to hold deeply differing views on all sorts of topics, while still agreeing that asking uninformed people to make enormously consequential decisions on complicated questions that they're unqualified to fully understand is a bad idea.
    Democracy ain't perfect, but its the best system available.
    And yet, in its most widespread and successful format, it takes most of the decision-making responsibility out of the hands of citizens and hands it to their elected representatives.

    In fact, when people talk about democracy, they're almost invariably talking about representative democracy in one form or another.

    I'm blue in the face saying this, but I guess I have to keep repeating it every time someone decides I'm some sort of autocrat in waiting: I don't have a problem with democracy. I have a problem with the mindless idea that "democratic" is a synonym for "perfect" and that any problem can be solved by throwing more democracy at it.

    I stand over the idea that Brexit is a picture-perfect example of why referendums are an utterly appalling way to run a country. 39% of eligible voters made a decision with far-reaching and as-yet unknowable consequences on the basis of a campaign that was characterised by vastly more rhetoric and emotion than information and reason, and a considerable amount of bare-faced dishonesty. Of that 39%, what percentage do you imagine were genuinely fully informed of the consequences of leaving or remaining? How many of them thought they could eat their cake and have it? How many thought the NHS would get an extra £350 million a week?

    To democracy's slavish adherents, such questions are blasphemous. The creed tells us that once the people have spoken, their words become sacred truth. The Will of the People can't be questioned, and if the consequences of the People's Sacred Decision is a national catastrophe, that's OK, because it's what the People Voted For.

    I don't subscribe to cults, and to me the idea that asking enough uninformed people a question will magically produce the correct answer is as cult-like a belief as I've ever come across.


  • #83
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    To democracy's slavish adherents, such questions are blasphemous. The creed tells us that once the people have spoken, their words become sacred truth. The Will of the People can't be questioned, and if the consequences of the People's Sacred Decision is a national catastrophe, that's OK, because it's what the People Voted For.
    The view you've mentioned here is something which a number of libertarian-leaning individuals appear to hold.

    For these excellent people, the single, critical element in any decision seems to be the appearance of a decision-making process. Concerns about the reliability or honesty of the process, or of the degree of information or encumbrance of the people making the decision, or of the utility or otherwise, of the result - these are irrelevancies.

    It's a POV which does has the benefit of extreme simplicity, but at the expense of reducing trust in the result to zero.


  • #84
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    Not that I'd expect the Spanish to behave like Russia - landing thousands of unmarked soldiers in Barcelona and take over the regional parliament :)
    A more accurate analogy would consist of French troops crossing into Catalonia, and confining Spanish troops to their barracks while the referendum was being held. You have to admit it was a master stroke of Putin's to surprise the Ukrainian troops and keep them separated from their weapons. And there was probably nobody more grateful than the Ukrainian troops themselves. All except one went home fit and healthy, despite the ludicrous orders they were receiving from Kiev to fight to the death.

    Anyway, the Crimeans themselves seemed quite happy with the result...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsitW6-fHXQ


  • #85
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    Anyway, the Crimeans themselves seemed quite happy with the result.
    As indeed were Armenia, Belarus, Bolivia, Cuba, Nicaragua, Syria, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Russia and North Korea - the only UN member states which recognize the illegal and faked referendum.

    One doesn't need to be an especially skilled international observer to suspect that this sad list of failed states, banana republics and dictatorlands may not have had the fairness or the legality of the result as their highest concern.


  • #86
    shaunr68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭shaunr68


    recedite wrote: »
    Anyway, the Crimeans themselves seemed quite happy with the result...
    Are these native Crimeans I wonder, or recent Russian colonists, the Tartars and other local population having been ethnically cleansed by Stalin for having backed the wrong horse in the war.

    More of a whiff of Cromwell and Ulster about it...


  • #87
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Well, not sure who exactly you would call native to Crimea. The tatars are a remnant of Ottoman rule which was at its height back around Cromwell's time alright.
    The cossacks are probably the most "native", and they were strongly pro-Russian in the referendum.
    And way back in the Crimean War when the British and French formed a tactical alliance with the Ottomans against the natives, it was the Russian Army that saved the day on that occasion too.


  • #88
    shaunr68
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 555 ✭✭✭shaunr68


    Saved the day? They were defeated. Quite an odd interpretation there on the successful Anglo-French intervention against Russian aggression and expansion against the sick man of Europe

    Anyway, back to the point. Please note my use of the term native rather than indigenous.

    My point was if you deport, enslave and murder a significant proportion of the population and bring in Russian colonists to replace them, it should come as no surprise that there now happens to be some significant pro-Russian sentiment.


  • #89
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    shaunr68 wrote: »
    Please note my use of the term native rather than indigenous. Which group could be considered to be indigenous to the region wasn't really the point.
    At this point in time most of the tatars in Crimea are neither, because they have moved to Crimea from other parts of the old Soviet Union where they were born, and where Stalin deported their parents/grandparents. That's why a lot of them are now homeless and oppose the govt.

    Besides, being either native or indigenous is not the main consideration IMO.
    A country belongs to the people who live in it.
    Past injustices belong in the past. Otherwise you would end up returning the USA to the indigenous tribes, or Australia to the aborigines. Even the Turks are not indigenous to Turkey, if you go back far enough.


  • #90
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    recedite wrote: »
    A country belongs to the people who live in it.
    Or in Crimea's case now, the region now belongs to Russia where - as I mentioned above - talk of separatism, even on social media with essentially zero spread, is now a criminal offence which can result in a long spell in a Russian prison:

    https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/12/22/dispatches-crime-speaking-russia

    Though this fear of separatism at home has not spread to other of the Kremlin's many corridors, some of which are devoted to encouraging further separatism abroad, where such talk does not incur a prison sentence:

    http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/what-s-behind-russian-support-world-s-separatist-movements-n614196

    Some consistency in your POV would make a welcome change, though I'll concede that it's hard to be consistent while still supporting VVP :)


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  • #91
    Mal-Adjusted
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    recedite wrote: »
    Well, we saw recently how the EU was very keen to negotiate to uphold "the current rights" of non-British EU citizens living in post Brexit UK, even though it would have no jurisdiction there.
    Therefore it should be even more keen to uphold the democratic rights of Catalans, in a post Spain situation.

    Um...haven't you got that backwards? Surely you mean that the EU would seek to uphold the rights of Spanish living in Catalan, you know, with Spain being an EU nation and a post Independence Catalan not?

    Not that it matters much as unless Spain recognize the legitimacy of the vote, i doubt any other Eu nations would either.


  • #92
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Mal-Adjusted wrote: »
    ..with Spain being an EU nation and a post Independence Catalan not?
    That is your assumption. If you go back over this thread you'll see that assumption is unfounded.


  • #93
    Fr Tod Umptious
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,393 ✭✭✭✭Fr Tod Umptious


    recedite wrote: »
    That is your assumption. If you go back over this thread you'll see that assumption is unfounded.

    How is it unfounded ?

    Spain is the EU member.

    Catalonia is nothing in the eyes of anyone only the ones who voted for it.


  • #94
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    robindch wrote: »
    Some consistency in your POV would make a welcome change, though I'll concede that it's hard to be consistent while still supporting VVP :)
    I am just as consistent as Putin.
    He is consistent in wanting a strong unified Russian state comprised of the remaining parts of the former USSR in which the majority of people still consider themselves to be ethnic Russians. That includes Crimea and East Ukraine.

    I am consistent in agreeing with the right to self determination of a people. That would equally apply if the people of Crimea wanted to leave Russia at some future time. You're assuming in that hypothetical situation, that Putin would deny them that right.
    Maybe, maybe not.
    I am not making assumptions on it either way, and there are no signs of it happening anyway.


  • #95
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »
    How is it unfounded ?

    Spain is the EU member.

    Catalonia is nothing in the eyes of anyone only the ones who voted for it.
    Read the link in this post.


  • #96
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,935 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    recedite wrote: »
    Read the link in this post.

    But there is almost no doubt that should Spain agree to Catalonia seceding, that Spain would assert its status as the continuator state. Both states cannot be continuator states and both Spain and the EU have made their position on this known- Catalonia would be a new state with no previous treaties or international agreements and as such would have to negotiate these anew.


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  • #97
    Mal-Adjusted
    Registered Users Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Mal-Adjusted


    recedite wrote: »
    That is your assumption. If you go back over this thread you'll see that assumption is unfounded.

    Not really. Spain would still be Spain & all the agreements and treaties would still apply to it, just it's territory would be smaller.

    Catalan would be a wholly new nation, outside of everything from the UN to UEFA and would have to seek to become members of these bodies,


  • #98
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    Both states cannot be continuator states
    You are entitled to your opinion, but the learned opinion I cited is different;
    either both new States will become new Members or the remaining State will continue the membership (with necessary modifications) while the separated State will become a new Member. No part of the State would have left the EU not even for a moment.


  • #99
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,820 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    recedite wrote: »
    You are entitled to your opinion, but the learned opinion I cited is different;

    Isn't the learned opinion you cited merely a proposal for a possible way of doing things?
    Drawing on the ideas of Articles 49 and 50 TEU this essay develops a procedure for balancing the interests of the EU, its Member States, and the people living in the seceding State...

    It seems to me that it aims to set out a proposal for how secessions could be handled. The quote you included, in isolation, gives the impression that that's a legal interpretation of how things are, but that's not the impression given by the document's abstract.

    On the face of it, it seems logically (if not legally) impossible for a new state to become a member of the Union without the agreement of all existing members. I think we can take it as a given as things stand that Spain would not agree to automatic membership for Catalonia, and other states would have comparable concerns.


  • #100
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    It seems to me that it aims to set out a proposal for how secessions could be handled. The quote you included, in isolation, gives the impression that that's a legal interpretation of how things are, but that's not the impression given by the document's abstract.
    Its an opinion. I did not say it was a legal interpretation of how things stand now.
    I gave my opinion more than once in this thread that the EU has no specific rule for the situation. And if you read the link, those guys also give that same opinion.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    On the face of it, it seems logically (if not legally) impossible for a new state to become a member of the Union without the agreement of all existing members. I think we can take it as a given as things stand that Spain would not agree to automatic membership for Catalonia, and other states would have comparable concerns.
    I'm open to correction on this, but I think they moved to "qualified majority" voting for most issues after the last expansion of the EU. The more states that are in the EU, the harder it becomes to reach a unanimous decision.

    But... is this an issue that can be decided by a qualified majority, or does it need to be unanimous? Perhaps a vote on that question is also in order. But would that vote be via a qualified majority ....


  • #101
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    recedite wrote: »
    But... is this an issue that can be decided by a qualified majority, or does it need to be unanimous? Perhaps a vote on that question is also in order. But would that vote be via a qualified majority ....

    You've been told numerous times it requires an unanimous vote


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