dna - old subject, new headaches

pattyquinn · 15-11-2010 4:23am #1

My cousin volunteered to have our dna tested. Results came back stating that we are descended from the "Ancient Irish." It then says our male line descends from the aboriginal inhabitants of Ireland.

Did some research online about "Ancient Irish" and "aboriginal inhabitants" and kept coming up with references to the Basque people.

Can someone clear this up for me? Even a little? Who are they referring to when they use these two explanations? Does this mean the ancient people of Ireland intermingled with the Basque? I'm so confused on this... help...

shanew · 15-11-2010 9:13am

as it understand it the theory - after last ice age (c8000 y.a) at least some of the people that populated Ireland originated from the Iberian peninsula, others came from Europe and England, possibly over the land bridges present at that time.

I dont remember the haplotype for the Iberian origin at the moment, but I have this also in my DNA. I think it might be R1b?

Shane

pattyquinn · 15-11-2010 3:22pm

R1b - yes. I just wish they would make this a little more clear when they send the results information. We aren't all genetics experts, darn it!:D

We were hoping to possibly find more living family by using the results, but we haven't had any luck yet. I think we had already located every living cousin before he even had the test done. But it's still nice to know the answers.

Ponster · 15-11-2010 4:37pm

pattyquinn wrote: »

We were hoping to possibly find more living family by using the results..

Well in a way you have done. 85% of the population is related to you

shanew · 15-11-2010 4:52pm

It depends on which company you use and which test you do, but you usually get access to a database to search to check for close matches. The more markers your test has, and the more that match someone else DNA - the greater the chance that you are closely related.

The results are often displayed with a 'most recent common ancestor' figure, and this is a calculation based on a comparison of the two sets of markers and the observed rates of marker mutation

Shane

fontanalis · 15-11-2010 8:30pm

What was the name of the company that you done the test with and what marker did they give you? Ancient Irish is a very misleading title for a haplogroup. The Basque thing seems to be have been overstated as the science progresses, both Irish and Basques (males) fall under the general category of R1b (Ireland about 75% and Basques about 95%), but once the "branch" was explored a bit more both groups seem to be on different ends.
Go to a web site called DNA Forums and sign up, they should point you in the right direction.

pattyquinn · 16-11-2010 2:22am

lol - true - in a way, I did indeed find out that I'm related to about 85% of the population!

On the serious side, we do seem to be related to a large part of Donegal and Tyrone, and I have found a lot of family there still.

The company he used was Ethnoancestry - I think it's based in Dublin. I didn't really want him to spend the money to have the test done - I had already found a large number of living family in both counties. But he insisted, thinking it would help us. The thing is, it seems most people don't really understand what they're looking at when they see the results (like me

) and they can only surf online and compare the numbers to others posted. It sure can throw you off!

shanew · 16-11-2010 12:21pm

just to complicate things further.. my male line, and R1b haplotype derive from an ancestor born in Cambridgeshire...

Shane

fontanalis · 16-11-2010 2:28pm

pattyquinn wrote: »

lol - true - in a way, I did indeed find out that I'm related to about 85% of the population!

On the serious side, we do seem to be related to a large part of Donegal and Tyrone, and I have found a lot of family there still.

The company he used was Ethnoancestry - I think it's based in Dublin. I didn't really want him to spend the money to have the test done - I had already found a large number of living family in both counties. But he insisted, thinking it would help us. The thing is, it seems most people don't really understand what they're looking at when they see the results (like me ) and they can only surf online and compare the numbers to others posted. It sure can throw you off!

With a Donegal/Tyrone connection you may have M222 which is called the UiNiall haplotype; supposed to be spread by Niall of the Nine hostages, the man who kidnapped St Patrick (Irelands very own Genghis Kahn effect).
http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2007/12/28/famous-dna-review-part-iii-niall-of-the-nine-hostages/

pattyquinn · 16-11-2010 5:23pm

Yes, the results did indeed state Niall as an ancestor. I've looked around online and found what they "claim" is the dna of Niall. I don't remember now how exactly they determined that this was indeed his dna, but I think it was a sort of conclusion, based on comparing the research results they had gathered?

The odd thing - but very interesting, too - my gr-gr-grandfather was born in Leghowney, Donegal. I went surfing last night into several Y-DNA forums and discovered that there are many who have found that their ancestors came from the very close region around Leghowney.

I have a list of surnames related to me, and have talked to quite a few of them - they all connect to this town, and also Ballintra, Greaghs, Laghy. Now, I'm hoping I might find at least one other person who lives in this area and has had a dna test done.

This dna stuff is so very interesting, and yet so very confusing! And I'm still curious as to what they meant by "Ancient Irish." Makes me feel like they put us into our own little cubbyhole separate from the rest of Ireland

fontanalis · 16-11-2010 5:59pm

pattyquinn wrote: »

Yes, the results did indeed state Niall as an ancestor. I've looked around online and found what they "claim" is the dna of Niall. I don't remember now how exactly they determined that this was indeed his dna, but I think it was a sort of conclusion, based on comparing the research results they had gathered?

The odd thing - but very interesting, too - my gr-gr-grandfather was born in Leghowney, Donegal. I went surfing last night into several Y-DNA forums and discovered that there are many who have found that their ancestors came from the very close region around Leghowney.

I have a list of surnames related to me, and have talked to quite a few of them - they all connect to this town, and also Ballintra, Greaghs, Laghy. Now, I'm hoping I might find at least one other person who lives in this area and has had a dna test done.

This dna stuff is so very interesting, and yet so very confusing! And I'm still curious as to what they meant by "Ancient Irish." Makes me feel like they put us into our own little cubbyhole separate from the rest of Ireland

It's a marketing slogan. Niall of the Nine Hostages lived around 400 ad, not very ancient.
Basically alot of surnames in Donegal and the North West in general are derived from ancestors of the UiNiall dynasty, it's thought at the time chieftans leaders sowed their royal oats a lot so the person that best fits someone who was able to do a lot of the auld ridin' was a powerful Chieftan like Niall. It could be that the genetic marker started in someone else bt Niall just spread it.

pattyquinn · 16-11-2010 6:22pm

fontanalis wrote: »

It's a marketing slogan. Niall of the Nine Hostages lived around 400 ad, not very ancient.
Basically alot of surnames in Donegal and the North West in general are derived from ancestors of the UiNiall dynasty, it's thought at the time chieftans leaders sowed their royal oats a lot so the person that best fits someone who was able to do a lot of the auld ridin' was a powerful Chieftan like Niall. It could be that the genetic marker started in someone else bt Niall just spread it.

Yes! I agree with this totally! And that leads me right back to the question of - who/what tribe, culture, etc. are they referring to when they say Ancient Irish? They ruled out the Picts right off. In fact, they ruled out Pictish, Caledonian, Anglo-Saxon, Palaeolithic, Kurgan, Germanic, Norse Viking, Northmen and Scandanavian.

So... does this mean that we descend from a specific tribe/culture of people that were isolated in the northwest of Ireland? The test results did indeed pinpoint where our specific markers are found today - and that was specifically right where our family has been as far back as the relatives know about.

Sigh... I'm probably just whistling into the wind here. This could just be nothing more than a marketing "title" to make us feel all excited.....

fontanalis · 16-11-2010 6:35pm

pattyquinn wrote: »

Yes! I agree with this totally! And that leads me right back to the question of - who/what tribe, culture, etc. are they referring to when they say Ancient Irish? They ruled out the Picts right off. In fact, they ruled out Pictish, Caledonian, Anglo-Saxon, Palaeolithic, Kurgan, Germanic, Norse Viking, Northmen and Scandanavian.

So... does this mean that we descend from a specific tribe/culture of people that were isolated in the northwest of Ireland? The test results did indeed pinpoint where our specific markers are found today - and that was specifically right where our family has been as far back as the relatives know about.

Sigh... I'm probably just whistling into the wind here. This could just be nothing more than a marketing "title" to make us feel all excited.....

I find the area of genetics very interesting; one problem I have is the way people try to link groups (picts, celts, saxons etc) to genetic markers. Some of the labels are modern inventions or have become corrupted and romaticised. Technically Ancient Irish isn't really wrong, but it depends on who the UiNiall were descended from (there seems to have been movements from mainland Europe around the iron age who setted up kingdoms/families, look up the tuatha dedanann and the book of invasions). I wouldn't say they were isolated as such, but just ran their own area. I think that's how Ireland was at the time with various kingdoms with a chieftan/family head type running the place.
Have a dig around these websites. The Basque thing also seems to have been overstated and is more or less dismissed now.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml

pinkypinky · 17-11-2010 12:22am

Have to point out here that Niall of the 9 hostages is not definitely a real person. He's alluded to in things like the Annals of the Four Masters but they were written later so it's a bit like saying that Homer's Iliad is gospel truth. The genetics work done by the guys in TCD only suggests the possibility of someone like him rather than it actually being him. Also, if he was a real person he'd have been later, maybe 800AD.

dna - old subject, new headaches

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