Now Ye're Talking - to a Bankrupt Student

Boards.ie: Niamh · 27-06-2018 12:12pm #1

Our next guest was self-employed running his own business for a time but was declared bankrupt earlier this year.

He has had to restart his career and is now in full time education in his mid 40s.

He is here to answer any questions about his bankruptcy or returning to education as a mature student.

JaMarcus · 27-06-2018 12:16pm

@Boards: Could we not get a bit more detail in the opening posts of these, even a paragraph?

@AMA: In the absence of the above:

(i) What type of business did you own?
(ii) How many employees? Did you have to let many of these go? If so, how did you handle it?
(iii) Was business ever good? If so, what contributed to the downfall? How much of it do you feel was within your control vs what was out of your control?
(iv) What would you do differently if you could?

Gloomtastic! · 27-06-2018 12:40pm

There but for the grace of God! Who'd be a student these days?

Hello OP,

I've been involved in a business that was really struggling at one stage - big guys with baseball bats sent to try and get money out of us.

Why did you go into the business you were in?
What was your two biggest mistakes in business?
What was your lowest point?
Was it your decision to close or was it the banks?
What have you learnt from your experience?
Are you studying something similar to what you were involved in or is it completely different field? Why did you choose that field?

Good luck to you and hope this AMA is of benefit to you.

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 12:52pm

JaMarcus wrote: »

@Boards: Could we not get a bit more detail in the opening posts of these, even a paragraph?

@AMA: In the absence of the above:

(i) What type of business did you own?
(ii) How many employees? Did you have to let many of these go? If so, how did you handle it?
(iii) Was business ever good? If so, what contributed to the downfall? How much of it do you feel was within your control vs what was out of your control?
(iv) What would you do differently if you could?

Hi everyone.
I will try to answer all questions but would prefer to be discreet about who I am.

I owned a small convenience store in the Dublin area. I employed upto 14 people at the peak but when the recession hit, business just stopped. Most of what happened was out of my control. I don't think there was much I could have about it really.

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 12:59pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

There but for the grace of God! Who'd be a student these days?

Hello OP,

I've been involved in a business that was really struggling at one stage - big guys with baseball bats sent to try and get money out of us.

Why did you go into the business you were in?
What was your two biggest mistakes in business?
What was your lowest point?
Was it your decision to close or was it the banks?
What have you learnt from your experience?
Are you studying something similar to what you were involved in or is it completely different field? Why did you choose that field?

Good luck to you and hope this AMA is of benefit to you.

The business I bought was a management buyout. I had worked in the place for about 10 years.

My biggest mistakes was not being firm enough and allowing people to make demands when a big fat NO should have been given, and the second, doing things by the book.

My lowest point was when I had to let some very good staff go, but I had no choice.

The main thing I learnt was don't work for yourself, there is a lot to be said for finishing work and walking away.

I am studying something completely different as a new start.

Ubbquittious · 27-06-2018 1:00pm

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA wrote: »

My biggest mistakes was not being firm enough and allowing people to make demands when a big fat NO should have been given, and the second, doing things by the book.

What kind of demands were they making?

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 1:03pm

Not really.
I was a cash business with very little credit

Panthro · 27-06-2018 1:15pm

Do u.... Swing in your spare time at all?
(just kidding I'm referring to a previous AMA thread!)

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 1:17pm

Ubbquittious wrote: »

What kind of demands were they making?

Good customers who, at weekends got valuable supplies from me, but required deliveries all week which cost more to do than it generated.

People demanding levels of service provided by multinationals, who did not understand I was a small local operator. Stuff like that

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 1:17pm

Panthro wrote: »

Do u.... Swing in your spare time at all?
(just kidding I'm referring to a previous AMA thread!)

Think the wife may have an issue with that!

begbysback · 27-06-2018 1:21pm

Graduated mature student here - do you find rejuvenated hope from returning to education?

connemara man · 27-06-2018 1:25pm

When you say doing things by the book what do you mean?

Ubbquittious · 27-06-2018 1:35pm

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA wrote: »

Good customers who, at weekends got valuable supplies from me, but required deliveries all week which cost more to do than it generated.

People demanding levels of service provided by multinationals, who did not understand I was a small local operator. Stuff like that

Did you ever have problems getting paid or was it strictly up-front payment?

How did you end up doing it for less than cost price, did you not ask enough or did they haggle down the price on you?

miamee · 27-06-2018 2:17pm

What does becoming bankrupt mean - is it something you decide or the bank tells you you are now bankrupt? I have a vague idea of how it works but some info from someone who has gone through it would be interesting.

You mentioned that things started to go downhill when the recession hit but you were only declared bankrupt this year - that was a long stretch in betweem, was it a relief when it finally happened and you could walk away from the business?

minikin · 27-06-2018 2:24pm

How have you funded your return to education?
Get any grants / supports from the state?
My understanding (as a currently self employed person) is that the system automatically says no.

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 3:15pm

begbysback wrote: »

Graduated mature student here - do you find rejuvenated hope from returning to education?

Absolutely. I now have something to work towards - my future!

facehugger99 · 27-06-2018 3:22pm

How similar would going to college in your 40's be to the Will Ferrell movie Old School?

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 3:33pm

connemara man wrote: »

When you say doing things by the book what do you mean?

I made all my payments ontime. I didn't really use credit, I was very straight took no liberties, even while people around me did.

miamee wrote: »

What does becoming bankrupt mean - is it something you decide or the bank tells you you are now bankrupt? I have a vague idea of how it works but some info from someone who has gone through it would be interesting.

You mentioned that things started to go downhill when the recession hit but you were only declared bankrupt this year - that was a long stretch in betweem, was it a relief when it finally happened and you could walk away from the business?

I found myself in a position where my business was gone and my personal debts were unserviceable. I had a glut of advisors helping me, but the final decision came down to me. I eventually went to a debt charity in Dublin who arranged everything for me. I bit the bullet and went to them. It was a cut and dried situation, so I was declared bankrupt in the High Court in January of this year.

minikin wrote: »

How have you funded your return to education?
Get any grants / supports from the state?
My understanding (as a currently self employed person) is that the system automatically says no.

You are correct. The general understanding is selfemployed people have no help, but that is not true.

Due to other circumstances (we had a perfect storm really). my wife was on social welfare and I was on her claim. We were means tested and she got a small payment. So when the proverbial hit the fan, I went into the social welfare office and confirmed, via a letter from my accountant, that my business was gone and I had lost everything.

They upped my wifes payment to full social welfare and that was it. After about a year, I was called for social welfare interview and explained everything that happened to us. The lady sat there in disbelief. I was advised to open my own claim as it could open doors to me and she suggested I go onto a special course for people who had been through the mill. I declined the course.

After a few months, my wife dragged me into an open night for college and it pricked my interest. I contacted mature student admissions and got interviewed over the phone. I was offered a place on life experience and maturity merits!

SUSI backed me by paying my fees, and Social Welfare moved me to Back to Education Allowance. I dont hear from them now. Just a single letter to be stamped by the college to confirm I was attending !

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 3:37pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

How similar would going to college in your 40's be to the Will Ferrell movie Old School?

Never seen it. I worked 100 hours a weeks for years to keep going. Televison? What's that?

tedpan · 27-06-2018 4:49pm

miamee wrote: »

What does becoming bankrupt mean - is it something you decide or the bank tells you you are now bankrupt? I have a vague idea of how it works but some info from someone who has gone through it would be interesting.

This is how it's done..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuGIgf-ICHM

On a more serious note, my Dad went bankrupt in the 90s in the UK, he lost everything.

It was also the reason I moved to Ireland, so I take it as a blessing.

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 5:02pm

tedpan wrote: »

This is how it's done..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuGIgf-ICHM

On a more serious note, my Dad went bankrupt in the 90s in the UK, he lost everything.

It was also the reason I moved to Ireland, so I take it as a blessing.

I paid everyone as much as I could but had to stop. If I paid one creditor over another, it could be viewed as illegal. I had a vulture fund pressing me for 1.2 million, they probably bought it for 20c in the euro. When they appointed a receiver, I gave them the keys as I was finished and broken. Then they sold it to another vulture fund. I took pleasure in sending the new one the bankruptcy adjudication. Now they cannot contact me.

Gloomtastic! · 27-06-2018 5:19pm

How's your marriage doing? I can't imagine how stressful something like this can affect a relationship. Did you stop telling her how bad things were or did you keep talking? Do you have kids? Are they aware of what you've gone through?

Agent Smith · 27-06-2018 5:30pm

Do you have a bedside locker.

Whats in your bedside locker?

minikin · 27-06-2018 5:47pm

What was the debt charity that you went to? Stepchange?

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 5:48pm

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

How's your marriage doing? I can't imagine how stressful something like this can affect a relationship. Did you stop telling her how bad things were or did you keep talking? Do you have kids? Are they aware of what you've gone through?

My marriage is quite strong, but my wife was unfairly dismissed from her job while all this was going on, so she had her own issues. We really got kicked from every direction. As staff were let go, she had to come and help me more and more. People's arrogance was an issue. I had my 14 year old helping me one day and a dickhead told me she should not be there, she should be in the playground. I was fighting for survival and got nothing but grief.

My daughter was quite sensitive to the goings on and got very upset when my wifes card was declined while doing food shopping. "Are we broke? blah blah blah." We were not, but the money was in the wrong account at that moment. In preparation for bankruptcy, my wife opened her own bank account, just in case the banks froze mine. They did!

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 5:50pm

minikin wrote: »

What was the debt charity that you went to? Stepchange?

The IMHO, Irish Mortgage Holders Organisation. The lady in there was very supportive and would recommend them eternally.

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 6:18pm

Agent Smith wrote: »

Do you have a bedside locker.

Whats in your bedside locker?

Valium

ANXIOUS · 27-06-2018 6:27pm

Are you taking convenience shop like a Spar or Centra?

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 6:36pm

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Are you taking convenience shop like a Spar or Centra?

Yes. A hard german discounter opened near me and that was it. Also. the council in their wisdom, introduced pay-parking and that killed the entire street.

ANXIOUS · 27-06-2018 6:44pm

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA wrote: »

Yes. A hard german discounter opened near me and that was it. Also. the council in their wisdom, introduced pay-parking and that killed the entire street.

Thanks can you explain what you mean about customers making demands on you and requiring supplies delivered?

Also with your level of debt I'm guessing you bought the building rather than the leasehold?

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 6:54pm

ANXIOUS wrote: »

Thanks can you explain what you mean about customers making demands on you and requiring supplies delivered?

Also with your level of debt I'm guessing you bought the building rather than the leasehold?

A customer had a large order at the weekend, hundreds of euro, but then wanted daily deliveries of 10 to 15 euro, then demanded sale or return. So having to open up, drive up to them, then also take returns made it operate at a loss during the week. They used to buy other things but then their head office gave a contract to a cash and carry, so they could not buy other things off me.

The level of debt was due to it being set up as,I bought the building, and rented it to my company - me!. So, as the business died, I was left in the lurch. The bank who financed it - no names mentioned, went under, and sold it to a vulture fund who waited, but as I couldn't pay, they took it. I was left shell shocked, jumping when the phone rang or I got a brown envelope. I nearly cracked up. My nerves were gone.

Gat Dayum! · 27-06-2018 7:02pm

In the initial boom years how did the business do? Did you save or reinvest at that time?

Calhoun · 27-06-2018 7:04pm

Great AMA, one of the things my old man always said to me was never to go into business on my own.

He like you had to work all hours under the sun when running his business, said it was horrible when it happened .

How did you feel when you walked away, were you happy to be out of it or did it hit you hard ?

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 7:28pm

Gat Dayum! wrote: »

In the initial boom years how did the business do? Did you save or reinvest at that time?

I made the mistake of leaving the money in the business to enable it to grow. Should have taken what I could.

Calhoun wrote: »

Great AMA, one of the things my old man always said to me was never to go into business on my own.

He like you had to work all hours under the sun when running his business, said it was horrible when it happened .

How did you feel when you walked away, were you happy to be out of it or did it hit you hard ?

I was relieved when I locked the door and left, but my wife cried.....

Gat Dayum! · 27-06-2018 8:29pm

Did you declare bankruptcy? If you don't mind me asking, given your wife had dismissed, what did you live on? Do they take every penny you have in every account and leave you high and dry as part of the process?

dellas1979 · 27-06-2018 8:36pm

Do you owe money now?

Am not 100% what bankruptcy means (in Ireland at least).

Do you sleep better at night/have a better quality of life now?

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 10:08pm

Gat Dayum! wrote: »

Did you declare bankruptcy? If you don't mind me asking, given your wife had dismissed, what did you live on? Do they take every penny you have in every account and leave you high and dry as part of the process?

As previously mentioned, we were on means tested social welfare as the business wound down. It was as simple as SW seeing my earning from the business, then treating that as means. They calculated social welfare entitlement from that. When I filed for bankruptcy, I had all my ducks in a row. The IMHO had walked me through the process and filled out the relevant forms. I had to declare my assets (not much) and liabilities. The judge on the day reviewed the statements and declared me insolvent and granted my bankruptcy. I was one of about 40 people, one after another doing this, it was like a conveyor belt. I stood there bewildered and that was it. No fanfare, no shouting, nothing. I was told to go outside and a representative of the Insolvency Service of Ireland would talk to me. He confirmed my details and said he would be in touch.

A couple of days later I got a letter from them telling me to inform my creditors of the judgement and refer all enquiries to them. End of story.

I am allowed a certain income tailored to family need and circumstances. Any excess has to be handed over to pay my creditors. In my case, 2 adults, 2 kids, mortgage *(in special arrangement), and a car, I am allowed about 2600 euro a month to live. My income is about 2400 a month. There is no excess. My only assets are a house in negative equity (effectively valued at zero), a laptop and a second hand motorcycle. In other words, no assets. TV and house furnishings are modest and owned by family so not classed as mine.

I am in bankruptcy for 12 months from last January. I understand that come January 2019, I will exit bankruptcy and can move on with my life. If I have had an excess income in the one year, I must pay it over to the insolvency service for three years to pay my debts. If I have no excess this year, then that is it for the other years. THIS IS MY UNDERSTANDING
I am a student on Back to Education allowance, there is no income to pay over. I am going into year two in college, this september.

dellas1979 wrote: »

Do you owe money now?

Am not 100% what bankruptcy means (in Ireland at least).

Do you sleep better at night/have a better quality of life now?

I still owe the money, but my financial affairs are managed by the insolvency service. They assess what I can pay and look after it. I dont actually have anything. At this moment, my social welfare comes in tomorrow, which is good, I have 2 euro in the bank. My wife has 18 euro in the bank.

I do sleep well at night now. I did have some serious trouble sleeping previously, the stress was killing me. I did spend some time in hospital with chest pains.

Santan · 27-06-2018 10:22pm

Would you try again

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 27-06-2018 10:31pm

Santan wrote: »

Would you try again

Not a hope in hell! It affected my health, my family and my sanity.

Santan · 27-06-2018 10:46pm

I must say congratulations on coming through such a difficult and what can be a dreadful time of your life, for you and family and for doing the AMA, I was that soldier and was not able to deal with it in the manner you did I.e so quickly and proper channels. I am now 12 years in my new business and going strong but those nights which I'm sure you had were some of the worst I ever had, disappointed myself, family, workers, but the hardest step is not the first one up, for me it was the one back down, to admit defeat, and to try try try again. It took a long time for me to look back on what I tried to do and to look at it as a learning experience and I did learn. Never ever put yourself down for trying, so many do but more will never even try, good luck for the future and remember your fluglebinder is just around the corner. (Cocktail the movie reference)

John Hutton · 27-06-2018 11:12pm

Do you feel guilty knowing that you failing to pay your bills can and will potentially have negative effects on other businesses and other people's jobs?

Are you paying your mortgage? Can you afford it? Will you chose for the property to revest, and if not where will you live given that you won't get a mortgage and mad rent prices?

28-06-2018 12:01am

Were you a limited company or sole trader?

If limited, had you tied personal assets to the business, as collateral?

Nokia6230i · 28-06-2018 12:58am

Do you know anyone, personally or anecdotally who's played the bankruptcy card?

For example by becoming a bankrupt tourist and legging it to England or Wales for a period and being declared bankrupt there instead because, I think, it used to be easier than over here to recover from?

Does such a thing mean your creditors here in Ireland can't touch you subsequently?

Do people, not you specifically clearly, squirrel money or assets away by signing it over to family to avoid it being frozen/seized?

idnkph · 28-06-2018 1:41am

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA wrote:

I found myself in a position where my business was gone and my personal debts were unserviceable. I had a glut of advisors helping me, but the final decision came down to me. I eventually went to a debt charity in Dublin who arranged everything for me. I bit the bullet and went to them. It was a cut and dried situation, so I was declared bankrupt in the High Court in January of this year.

How long did the process take from the time you went to the charity to getting into court in January?

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 28-06-2018 10:12am

John Hutton wrote: »

Do you feel guilty knowing that you failing to pay your bills can and will potentially have negative effects on other businesses and other people's jobs?

Are you paying your mortgage? Can you afford it? Will you chose for the property to revest, and if not where will you live given that you won't get a mortgage and mad rent prices?

All suppliers were paid. It was the vulture fund who was not. In my personal life, it was my credit cards went unpaid. My home is 50% warehoused so am paying the other half. The warehoused portion will still have to be paid. It's a family home, so like thousands of others, it's supposed to be protected. There are people playing the system who won't pay, I am not one of them.

Deleted User wrote: »

Were you a limited company or sole trader?

If limited, had you tied personal assets to the business, as collateral?

The business was a limited company but I was technically the landlord so its on my head personally. At the time of the tiger roaring, it was in comprehensible things would go bad. Remember the government telling everyone things were fine?

Nokia6230i wrote: »

Do you know anyone, personally or anecdotally who's played the bankruptcy card?

For example by becoming a bankrupt tourist and legging it to England or Wales for a period and being declared bankrupt there instead because, I think, it used to be easier than over here to recover from?

Does such a thing mean your creditors here in Ireland can't touch you subsequently?

Do people, not you specifically clearly, squirrel money or assets away by signing it over to family to avoid it being frozen/seized?

I have UK connections and addresses, but so many people were going to the UK, Ireland changed their rules to make Irish bankruptcy similar. So no real benefit I am aware of.

idnkph wrote: »

How long did the process take from the time you went to the charity to getting into court in January?

I think it was 2 or 3 months.

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 28-06-2018 10:16am

I am on a 2 year college course extendable to a degree by doing 1 more year, or an honours degree with a other year. I was always weary about what I could do next, but I am blessed with the attitude of the college, social welfare and Susi. I want to give them credit as they are really helping me.

My college is assisting me as it is soooo hard returning to education after nearly 30 years!

My wife is doing a degree along with her part time job, so we are getting the finger out and expect to be well on track in 12 to 24 months. WE ARE NOT SITTING AROUND.

Wanderer78 · 28-06-2018 10:27am

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA wrote:

The business was a limited company but I was technically the landlord so its on my head personally. At the time of the tiger roaring, it was in comprehensible things would go bad. Remember the government telling everyone things were fine?

I'm a big fan of banking expert and white collar criminologist bill black, one of his says is, 'behind every bad borrower is a bad lender', I do think people such as yourself have fallen foul to this. The link between the financial sector and our governments is a very dangerous one, it's actually undermining our democracy. we were well informed by people such as black during the boom what was likely gonna happen, we actually haven't listened much to their expertise, and sadly, not much has actually changed regarding these issues. It must have been an extremely stressful period in your life and your families, I wish you well

spurshero · 28-06-2018 10:32am

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA wrote: »

I am on a 2 year college course extendable to a degree by doing 1 more year, or an honours degree with a other year. I was always weary about what I could do next, but I am blessed with the attitude of the college, social welfare and Susi. I want to give them credit as they are really helping me.

My college is assisting me as it is soooo hard returning to education after nearly 30 years!

My wife is doing a degree along with her part time job, so we are getting the finger out and expect to be well on track in 12 to 24 months. WE ARE NOT SITTING AROUND.

You don’t have to justify yourself to anybody here . You done your best and things didn’t work out . I’m sure that upset you more then anybody else . There’s some very harsh comments from some on here . But most of these comments in general come from people who never have to worry on a Thursday night if they can meet wages etc for 14 people on a Friday .in general they worry about themselves and criticize others who try and fail . Best of luck with the new start .... might be the best thing that ever happened in the long run

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA · 28-06-2018 10:33am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I'm a big fan of banking expert and white collar criminologist bill black, one of his says is, 'behind every bad borrower is a bad lender', I do think people such as yourself have fallen foul to this. The link between the financial sector and our governments is a very dangerous one, it's actually undermining our democracy. we were well informed by people such as black during the boom what was likely gonna happen, we actually haven't listened much to their expertise, and sadly, not much has actually changed regarding these issues. It must have been an extremely stressful period in your life and your families, I wish you well

That is an interesting view, but I am not blaming others. At the time, after working 10 years in the place, I knew the business inside out. The business did not change, the country did.
It was fueled by aggressive lending by a bank called BOSI, when the crash happened EVERYONE got burned. BOSI fell on the sword.

It is one of those things, I am not blaming anyone. I was lucky to have people to turn to. My buddy the accountant was a great support.

28-06-2018 10:35am

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA wrote: »

I am on a 2 year college course extendable to a degree by doing 1 more year, or an honours degree with a other year. I was always weary about what I could do next, but I am blessed with the attitude of the college, social welfare and Susi. I want to give them credit as they are really helping me.

My college is assisting me as it is soooo hard returning to education after nearly 30 years!

My wife is doing a degree along with her part time job, so we are getting the finger out and expect to be well on track in 12 to 24 months. WE ARE NOT SITTING AROUND.

Made redundant myself in 2013 and did a conversion hdip and completely changed career.

It's hard but worth it, well done lad. You're taking back control of your life (as is your wife). This is what social welfare is meant to be for.

One thing, if it's possible. The honours degree (or any level 8) opens doors that bit easier

Bob Harris · 28-06-2018 10:39am

I'm a bankrupt student, AMA wrote: »

That is an interesting view, but I am not blaming others. At the time, after working 10 years in the place, I knew the business inside out. The business did not change, the country did.
It was fueled by aggressive lending by a bank called BOSI, when the crash happened EVERYONE got burned. BOSI fell on the sword.

It is one of those things, I am not blaming anyone. I was lucky to have people to turn to. My buddy the accountant was a great support.

Do you think you could have changed the business in any way to have coped with the downturn or was it simply a case of people not spending and whatever you could have done wouldn't have been enough?

Now Ye're Talking - to a Bankrupt Student

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