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BOi closing 103 branches in ROi/Ni - new deal with An Post

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    #32
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,131 ✭✭✭screamer


    Ultimately this will just hasten the end of BOI, as traditional banks move out of their bricks and mortar presence, they cannot compare with the digital offering from the likes of N25 and revolut. They have no unique selling point left, and customers forced to digital services will chose the superior options. Mortgages are about the only thing they offer, but seems even they are difficult to obtain and a decent broker seems a better way to go.


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    #33
    coylemj
    Registered Users Posts: 25,331 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    https://www.bankofireland.com/service-changes/


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    #34
    marvin80
    Registered Users Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭marvin80


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    There's an interm renumeration deal between an post and the postmasters which expires in June, unless the government step in to bail them out there's going to be an avalanche of closures, 891 post offices are in private ownership, an post only own 45. It's government intervention or the retail network is going to collapse. This BOI deal won't come close to saving it.
    http://communityandpostoffice.ie/2021/02/government-solution-for-post-offices-to-maintain-vital-services-for-communities/

    Didn't know that.


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    #35
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    screamer wrote: »
    Ultimately this will just hasten the end of BOI, as traditional banks move out of their bricks and mortar presence, they cannot compare with the digital offering from the likes of N25 and revolut..


    Pity about the facts though - the digital versions are fairing no better, they are all reporting losses. Eventually they will all run out of road and consolidation and elimination are on the cards for both.


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    #36
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I've never really understood how (established) banks make a loss. A single mortgage of 200k at 4% over 30 years brings in interest of about €144k. Approximately €100 per week, if you break it down that way.


    A quick google tells me there are about 850,000 mortgages in Ireland. Assuming BOI have even 200,000 of them, that's about, €20m per week rolling in the door? (and that's before you take into consideration they do personal loans, charges for current accounts, insurance, etc.) How can their costs surpass that?

    Also, you'd assume that, being a bank, if you wanted to make more money, you'd just drop mortgage interest rates to 1.5% or something, and you'd hoover up almost everyone in the country.


    And you never will with this kind of logic. You want to understand - stop listening to the talking heads and the reporters click bait, take out the accounts of the Irish banks and a couple of the big European banks and start going through the audit it figures, read the notes to the accounts etc...


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    #37
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,651 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Dempo1 wrote: »
    The Branch Banking model is coming to an end. I've been with KBC for years, can't recall the last time I was in a bank branch. I accept cheque /cash lodging can and is a challenge with KBC

    Shove the cheques onto an envelope with a note to lodge to your account, post to Sandwith Street, easy.


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    #38
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,651 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I've never really understood how (established) banks make a loss. A single mortgage of 200k at 4% over 30 years brings in interest of about €144k. Approximately €100 per week, if you break it down that way.


    A quick google tells me there are about 850,000 mortgages in Ireland. Assuming BOI have even 200,000 of them, that's about, €20m per week rolling in the door? (and that's before you take into consideration they do personal loans, charges for current accounts, insurance, etc.) How can their costs surpass that?

    Also, you'd assume that, being a bank, if you wanted to make more money, you'd just drop mortgage interest rates to 1.5% or something, and you'd hoover up almost everyone in the country.

    Here's a few random costs:
    Cost of borrowing the money to lend out
    Cost of staff
    Cost of the branches (rent/depreciation/repairs etc).
    Cost of IT infrastructure
    ATM network costs
    Central bank levy
    Ombudsman levy
    CCPC levy
    Cost of holding capital
    Bad debts
    Fraud

    That's going to take up a fair bit of your hypothetical interest income. There's loads of other costs too


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    #39
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Every time there’s news like this, it just reminds us that towns all over Ireland are dying. Hopefully 20 years from now, with advances in technology people will be flooding into these main streets living and working in a type of technological working hub, pedestrianise the streets, make them completely different to what they are right now- probably pie in the sky but we’ve got to start dreaming here - grants to convert empty commercial buildings into accommodation - less planning granted for big estates on the edges of towns until the main st is revamped first with mixed housing- apartments houses etc

    Like I said this is pie in the sky thinking but radical thought ideas are needed now as current approach not working


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    #40
    crossmolinalad
    Registered Users Posts: 837 ✭✭✭crossmolinalad


    McGaggs wrote: »
    Shove the cheques onto an envelope with a note to lodge to your account, post to Sandwith Street, easy.
    Who is using cheques nowdays
    i wont accept them because some are bouncing and or take a week or more to get your money in
    paying from account to account takes just between an hour and 4 hours
    first thing i told my employer no Cheques accepted


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    #41
    Delta2113
    Registered Users Posts: 2,667 ✭✭✭Delta2113


    https://www.statesavings.ie/ are using cheques for one.


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    #42
    begbysback
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭begbysback


    malinheader wrote: »
    Another casualty of covid.

    But some large institutions might see the covid as a plus to cut costs.

    Between Ulster bank and BOI and the small businesses that will go to the wall I fear the end is in sight for alot of towns and villages

    Nothing to do with covid, BOI is in a league of it’s own when it comes to being disingenuous, previously the communication regarding increased fees, as if it was doing the customer a favour, and now pretending they are adapting to customer needs, nonsense, they have been pushing customers out of branches for the last 10 years through their own initiatives.


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    #43
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,651 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    crossmolinalad wrote: »
    Who is using cheques nowdays
    i wont accept them because some are bouncing and or take a week or more to get your money in
    paying from account to account takes just between an hour and 4 hours
    first thing i told my employer no Cheques accepted

    Only ever badly organised companies. VHI being the latest.


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    #44
    downtheroad
    Registered Users Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭downtheroad


    crossmolinalad wrote: »
    Who is using cheques nowdays
    i wont accept them because some are bouncing and or take a week or more to get your money in
    paying from account to account takes just between an hour and 4 hours
    first thing i told my employer no Cheques accepted

    The legal industry love cheques. Stuck in the past.


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    #45
    Slutmonkey57b
    Registered Users Posts: 5,552 ✭✭✭Slutmonkey57b


    McGaggs wrote: »
    Here's a few random costs:
    Cost of borrowing the money to lend out
    Cost of staff
    Cost of the branches (rent/depreciation/repairs etc).
    Cost of IT infrastructure
    ATM network costs
    Central bank levy
    Ombudsman levy
    CCPC levy
    Cost of holding capital
    Bad debts
    Fraud

    That's going to take up a fair bit of your hypothetical interest income. There's loads of other costs too

    Cost of offices and equipment for those 10k staff as well (surprised they haven't also announced closures there too but I assume they need to complete leases). Pension costs for all the retired biddies on final salary schemes from the good old days. I heard from people in the know that "customers" actually cost a fortune to have their accounts maintained,though I assume that's because their IT is ****, based on their appalling app, years waiting for Google pay, etc.


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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I've never really understood how (established) banks make a loss. A single mortgage of 200k at 4% over 30 years brings in interest of about €144k. Approximately €100 per week, if you break it down that way.


    A quick google tells me there are about 850,000 mortgages in Ireland. Assuming BOI have even 200,000 of them, that's about, €20m per week rolling in the door? (and that's before you take into consideration they do personal loans, charges for current accounts, insurance, etc.) How can their costs surpass that?

    Also, you'd assume that, being a bank, if you wanted to make more money, you'd just drop mortgage interest rates to 1.5% or something, and you'd hoover up almost everyone in the country.

    They didn't actually make a loss, there was 1.1b set aside for bad loans arising from the pandemic, these losses haven't actually occurred yet, and might never occur.


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    #47
    TempAc
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭TempAc


    McGaggs wrote: »
    Here's a few random costs:
    Cost of borrowing the money to lend out
    Cost of staff
    Cost of the branches (rent/depreciation/repairs etc).
    Cost of IT infrastructure
    ATM network costs
    Central bank levy
    Ombudsman levy
    CCPC levy
    Cost of holding capital
    Bad debts
    Fraud

    That's going to take up a fair bit of your hypothetical interest income. There's loads of other costs too
    And let's add on significant compliance costs, enforcement costs (because there are over 22,000 properties that are in arrears over 5 years and the spend on this is pricey), and the fact that there is another 55k properties in arrears of less than 5 years which aren't necessarily bad debts but which have a cost attached to them.


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    #48
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,064 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    If you're running a bank, a large branch network doesn't make much sense. They are costly and in and of themselves don't bring in much income.


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    #49
    JTMan
    Registered Users Posts: 5,537 ✭✭✭JTMan


    Bank of Ireland today said that they are considering implementing negative rates on deposits over 1 million euros.

    AIB have said the same previously.

    Once AIB/BOI take the lead with negative rates, others will follow.


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    #50
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,801 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    If you're running a bank, a large branch network doesn't make much sense. They are costly and in and of themselves don't bring in much income.

    When you hear the arguments against branch closures they're nearly always about customers wanting to access savings as well. They effectively want banks to continue operating loss making branches for the purpose of servicing a product that banks are currently desperate to get rid of....


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    #51
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,651 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    CrabRevolution wrote: »
    When you hear the arguments against branch closures they're nearly always about customers wanting to access savings as well. They effectively want banks to continue operating loss making branches for the purpose of servicing a product that banks are currently desperate to get rid of....

    And I don't see the link between accessing savings and needing a branch. I haven't done an in branch savings withdrawal since 2002.


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    #52
    TempAc
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭TempAc


    McGaggs wrote: »
    And I don't see the link between accessing savings and needing a branch. I haven't done an in branch savings withdrawal since 2002.
    There isn't one really, it's more about habit than necessity, and it's certainly not about convenience. People enjoy the action of going into a branch to make lodgements/withdrawals.

    Last year someone tried to pay me with a cheque, I just looked at them and told them that was of no use to me since I couldn't do anything with it. Upon querying why they were still using cheques it was pretty much along the lines of "I've just always done it like that".

    As much as BOIs online banking is absolutely horrendous, and the payments are appallingly slow due to a lack of SEPA instant, it is still quicker than going to a branch to do banking, or have someone to try and cash a cheque.

    People's arguments for in branch banking most of the time amount to because they just don't want to/couldn't be bothered doing it any other way. Reality is that that attitude will just cost them and be progressively more inconvenient for them as time progresses.


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    #53
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,801 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Every time there’s news like this, it just reminds us that towns all over Ireland are dying. Hopefully 20 years from now, with advances in technology people will be flooding into these main streets living and working in a type of technological working hub, pedestrianise the streets, make them completely different to what they are right now- probably pie in the sky but we’ve got to start dreaming here - grants to convert empty commercial buildings into accommodation - less planning granted for big estates on the edges of towns until the main st is revamped first with mixed housing- apartments houses etc

    Like I said this is pie in the sky thinking but radical thought ideas are needed now as current approach not working

    I admire your optimism, but look at just about any county council around the country and most of the councillors advocate pretty much the opposite. They want more one off housing and fewer people in towns, and even in the towns they want more on street parking and access for cars.


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    #54
    Sheep Shagger
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,217 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    JTMan wrote: »
    Bank of Ireland today said that they are considering implementing negative rates on deposits over 1 million euros.

    AIB have said the same previously.

    Once AIB/BOI take the lead with negative rates, others will follow.

    So vast majority of retail customers won't be affected.

    Corporate customers have been charged negative rates for years.


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    #55
    The J Stands for Jay
    Registered Users Posts: 5,651 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    Sheep Shagger wrote: »
    So vast majority of retail customers won't be affected.

    Corporate customers have been charged negative rates for years.

    I do wonder what kind of person has €1m on deposit. I suppose there could be lots of people who have it there on its way to another investment.


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    #56
    deravarra
    Registered Users Posts: 1,814 ✭✭✭deravarra


    The one thing I was bemused with in the BOI reasoning for closing so many branches was that they had invested a lot into their online offerings.
    I can say without any hesitation that no Irish bank gives anything like a half decent online experience, especially when it comes to their apps.
    The one bank to did alright was Ulsterbank - and they're going.
    PTSB came a good way back, and AIB along with BOI are quite poor in terms of UI and UE.
    We also do not have what other banking/finance apps have: push notifications as with the likes of Revolut and N26. The ability to be able to lodge a cheque using an app (Halifax customers in the UK can do it - and many banks in the US can do it). Just these two, if implemented, would make a significant change for the better. Those, along with availability of google pay AND samsung pay would help customers a lot.

    For a country with a lot of Fintech business and start ups, we sure are lagging behind when it comes to consumer banking offerings.


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    #57
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Deleted User wrote: »
    They didn't actually make a loss, there was 1.1b set aside for bad loans arising from the pandemic, these losses haven't actually occurred yet, and might never occur.

    It does not work like that, you can’t just randomly pluck something randomly out of the accounts and just decided without any basis that it can be excluded.

    Firstly, I have never encountered anyone in senior management that wanted to report a bigger loss than was necessary. It impacts their bonus, their pride, power and even job security.

    Secondly, these figures are not plucked out of the sky, they are built up under the supervision of risk management going over the loan books and looking into the circumstances of the more shaky loans.

    Third, there is the public auditor will want to cover themselves as well.

    So the final figures represent the trade off between the three, it is not something you can dismiss out of hand because it suits you.


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    #58
    JP Liz V1
    Registered Users Posts: 85,026 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1


    72 euros per year charges and now closures :mad:
    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #59
    Jim2007
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 9,989 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    JP Liz V1 wrote: »
    72 euros per year charges and now closures :mad:

    And you think they should continue to swallow losses for the sake of 72 Euro....

    As taxpayers and owners, we need to see BOI etc. advance so the state recovers the capital we put in.


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    #60
    Slutmonkey57b
    Registered Users Posts: 5,552 ✭✭✭Slutmonkey57b


    Jim2007 wrote: »
    And you think they should continue to swallow losses for the sake of 72 Euro....

    As taxpayers and owners, we need to see BOI etc. advance so the state recovers the capital we put in.

    In fairness to boi, they're one bank that did pay back the taxpayer and isn't in majority ownership by the state.


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