Third Secretary & Development Specialist Campaign 2020

CrouchTiger · 26-11-2020 8:44pm

rainyday2020 wrote: »

I agree with all the above. Given that PAS's overarching goals is to ensure fairness and consistency at all stages of a competition I think it is safe to say that this is out the window in regards to this competition.

I really don't think so. Sorry to be frank, but they're just going to get people to do it again and score people based on the result. Seeing it once before isn't really that much help, it's about doing it under pressure and producing the result from an unseen text. Those conditions aren't going to change. A précis is a précis, they are already telling you what it is.

FenFlynn · 26-11-2020 9:49pm

CrouchTiger wrote: »

I really don't think so. Sorry to be frank, but they're just going to get people to do it again and score people based on the result. Seeing it once before isn't really that much help, it's about doing it under pressure and producing the result from an unseen text. Those conditions aren't going to change. A précis is a précis, they are already telling you what it is.

I totally agree with you there. I went through a whole book written on Precis with samples and solutions and hints, but it didn't help me much in the test. There was too little time to even think about any of the techniques or points to be careful about.
The fact that we had geared up to do it on Wednesday and gave it our all and afterwards completely left it behind, then to be told that you have to do it again is already a test for one's patience and mental attitude. I don't see any advantage in that at all. Not to count in the two mornings took off work, and the stress beforehand, the mere fact that one has to rewire their head and make sure it's in the same mental focus as before is already a lot to ask. Being non native English speaker, I had been reading the news, listening to podcasts beforehand so I could think of words to say, and now to do it again just created so much stress.
If I had the choice I wouldn't want to be doing it again, not with the practice or the knowledge of the type of the passage. It's just my honest opinion.

CrouchTiger · 26-11-2020 9:57pm

FenFlynn wrote: »

I totally agree with you there. I went through a whole book written on Precis with samples and solutions and hints, but it didn't help me much in the test. There was too little time to even think about any of the techniques or points to be careful about.
The fact that we had geared up to do it on Wednesday and gave it our all and afterwards completely left it behind, then to be told that you have to do it again is already a test for one's patience and mental attitude. I don't see any advantage in that at all. Not to count in the two mornings took off work, and the stress beforehand, the mere fact that one has to rewire their head and make sure it's in the same mental focus as before is already a lot to ask. Being non native English speaker, I had been reading the news, listening to podcasts beforehand so I could think of words to say, and now to do it again just created so much stress.
If I had the choice I wouldn't want to be doing it again, not with the practice or the knowledge of the type of the passage. It's just my honest opinion.

I have a lot of sympathy for everyone going through this process. If it's any consolation, it's good practice for the job itself which will test all of your resolve, patience, and determination sometimes - even at HQ. When I was going through the testing process it felt interminable and there was no pandemic then. In one way, it is harsh and impersonal in order to be fair to everyone, but it is ruthless. Try stay patient and calm, focus on one stage at a time, and allow yourself to stay realistic about the job - if it doesn't work out many competitive applicants normally have lots of really enviable other opportunities.

FenFlynn · 26-11-2020 10:57pm

CrouchTiger wrote: »

I have a lot of sympathy for everyone going through this process. If it's any consolation, it's good practice for the job itself which will test all of your resolve, patience, and determination sometimes - even at HQ. When I was going through the testing process it felt interminable and there was no pandemic then. In one way, it is harsh and impersonal in order to be fair to everyone, but it is ruthless. Try stay patient and calm, focus on one stage at a time, and allow yourself to stay realistic about the job - if it doesn't work out many competitive applicants normally have lots of really enviable other opportunities.

Thanks a million for the encouragement and advice. I'll be really glad when this is all finished. It is an invaluable experience to take away for sure.

spritefeedback · 27-11-2020 2:08pm

Well I was one of those that had to go through the precis exercise twice. Before completing the second one I would have been sympathetic that doing it a second time would have been a benefit. I had gone over in my head my last exercise and spotted some ways to reduce or tighten it up.

However, having just finished the second one I can say that the topic and type of data for the second exercise was completely different so none of this helped at all. So, for myself, I don't think it was an advantage at all to have done it twice. I am really not sure that my piece today was any stronger than the first one.

I don't really think that doing an exercise twice makes all that much difference. Although briefing in general is not alien to me, so maybe for others it might but I doubt it.

FenFlynn · 27-11-2020 2:14pm

Just finished mine as well. I feel this is a far harder passage compared to the previous one. I had 402 words which I think I would be penalised severely for. I meant to cut a sentence but panicked the last few minutes and just hit the send button. I don't see myself going forward though, it was so hard to know what to omit and what to cover, and a few sections I didn't feely understand and had no time to check the meanings on certain words. Ah well, at least it's done now, can forget about it for the moment.

spritefeedback · 27-11-2020 3:03pm

CrouchTiger wrote: »

I have a lot of sympathy for everyone going through this process. If it's any consolation, it's good practice for the job itself which will test all of your resolve, patience, and determination sometimes - even at HQ. When I was going through the testing process it felt interminable and there was no pandemic then. In one way, it is harsh and impersonal in order to be fair to everyone, but it is ruthless. Try stay patient and calm, focus on one stage at a time, and allow yourself to stay realistic about the job - if it doesn't work out many competitive applicants normally have lots of really enviable other opportunities.

If you don't mind I have a more general query about promotional opportunities. Are there more opportunities for progression as a sitting civil servant, as in are there internal competitions you can apply for as well as external ones.

CrouchTiger · 27-11-2020 3:27pm

spritefeedback wrote: »

If you don't mind I have a more general query about promotional opportunities. Are there more opportunities for progression as a sitting civil servant, as in are there internal competitions you can apply for as well as external ones.

There are internal and external competitions for certain roles in the DFA. Third Secretary is always an open external competition to allow everyone an opportunity to join the Department as there are very limited transfer routes into the Department and no permanent transfer mechanisms (the diplomatic positions are distinct from AO, AP, and PO if nominally equivalent in seniority).

There are internal competitions for DFA diplomats only for First Secretary and Counsellor, but there are also external competitions at these grades that allow anyone to apply.

PeachL00pies · 27-11-2020 4:49pm

FenFlynn wrote: »

Just finished mine as well. I feel this is a far harder passage compared to the previous one. I had 402 words which I think I would be penalised severely for. I meant to cut a sentence but panicked the last few minutes and just hit the send button. I don't see myself going forward though, it was so hard to know what to omit and what to cover, and a few sections I didn't feely understand and had no time to check the meanings on certain words. Ah well, at least it's done now, can forget about it for the moment.

From the booklet:

Your summary should take the form of a continuous narrative and should be no longer than 350 - 400 words (i.e. approximately one third the length of the original).

They haven't put 400 as the cut-off.

spritefeedback · 27-11-2020 5:33pm

CrouchTiger wrote: »

There are internal competitions for DFA diplomats only for First Secretary and Counsellor, but there are also external competitions at these grades that allow anyone to apply.

Many thanks for coming back to me. Apologies if I’m asking too many questions.

So in terms of options for First Secretary you would probably have more opportunities as a sitting Third Secretary than as an external candidate. I presume you would have to serve out your probationary period of 1 year before being able to go for internal opportunities.

I saw reference to quotas between internal and external lists for competitions. Does that mean as an internal candidate you go through the same stages as someone external but you end up on a different list, or is there a separate internal process that produces another list?

With regards to other internal promotions are they general DFA wide or are they specific trawls for to posts or a mix of both?

Seems there has been quite an intake of Third Secretaries of late so would expect that means quite a lot of competition for higher grades for those joining in this one.

Not that is necessarily the most important consideration but I think with any job you take up you should be at least considering how you get one level up. Particularly when there is such a huge salary difference between Third/First Sec both in relative and absolute terms.

CrouchTiger · 27-11-2020 5:39pm

spritefeedback wrote: »

Many thanks for coming back to me. Apologies if I’m asking too many questions.

So in terms of options for First Secretary you would probably have more opportunities as a sitting Third Secretary than as an external candidate. I presume you would have to serve out your probationary period of 1 year before being able to go for internal opportunities.

I saw reference to quotas between internal and external lists for competitions. Does that mean as an internal candidate you go through the same stages as someone external but you end up on a different list, or is there a separate internal process that produces another list?

With regards to other internal promotions are they general DFA wide or are they specific trawls for to posts or a mix of both?

Seems there has been quite an intake of Third Secretaries of late so would expect that means quite a lot of competition for higher grades for those joining in this one.

Not that is necessarily the most important consideration but I think with any job you take up you should be at least considering how you get one level up. Particularly when there is such a huge salary difference between Third/First Sec both in relative and absolute terms.

I think the idea of going for promotion after 1 year as TS is probably a bit crazy. I mean, people have done it, but you can't realistically expect a promotion to FS till you've gone on posting, and that would mean usually at least 2 years at HQ and 4 years on post, so 6 years. In a word, the competition for a very small number of promotions is going to be very, very intense. The salary difference at the top end for TS (say after 10 years) and the starting salary for FS are not that big.

I don't really know what you mean about quotas or process. An internal competition is for DFA candidates only, and external competition can be anyone, including DFA candidates. The opportunities will just depend on your CV I guess. Someone might come in with great experience that could see them promoted very quickly.

HartsHat · 27-11-2020 5:50pm

CrouchTiger wrote: »

I think the idea of going for promotion after 1 year as TS is probably a bit crazy. I mean, people have done it, but you can't realistically expect a promotion to FS till you've gone on posting, and that would mean usually at least 2 years at HQ and 4 years on post, so 6 years. In a word, the competition for a very small number of promotions is going to be very, very intense. The salary difference at the top end for TS (say after 10 years) and the starting salary for FS are not that big.

I don't really know what you mean about quotas or process. An internal competition is for DFA candidates only, and external competition can be anyone, including DFA candidates. The opportunities will just depend on your CV I guess. Someone might come in with great experience that could see them promoted very quickly.

You also can't apply for an internal competition until you are at least 2 years in the Department.

Any TS coming in expecting to be promoted before going on posting is in for a land.

CrouchTiger · 27-11-2020 5:54pm

HartsHat wrote: »

You also can't apply for an internal competition until you are at least 2 years in the Department.

Any TS coming in expecting to be promoted before going on posting is in for a land.

Just to say I don't think this is quite right. At least at other levels of seniority. People have come in and applied for internal competitions in less than 2 years. I don't know of anyone who was successful, however. Very much agreed on the latter point!

adwickham · 27-11-2020 6:13pm

CrouchTiger wrote: »

Just to say I don't think this is quite right. At least at other levels of seniority. People have come in and applied for internal competitions in less than 2 years. I don't know of anyone who was successful, however. Very much agreed on the latter point!

No, the previous poster is correct. You have to have served two years in the Civil Service before going for internal DFA competitions.

CrouchTiger · 27-11-2020 6:31pm

adwickham wrote: »

No, the previous poster is correct. You have to have served two years in the Civil Service before going for internal DFA competitions.

Ah, of course! I meant that you didn't necessarily need 2 years in the DFA to go for an internal competition if you've 2 years elsewhere in the civil service and then entered the DFA via external competition you're probably good to go before 2 years in the DFA? Happy to be corrected though!

HartsHat · 27-11-2020 6:40pm

CrouchTiger wrote: »

Ah, of course! I meant that you didn't necessarily need 2 years in the DFA to go for an internal competition if you've 2 years elsewhere in the civil service and then entered the DFA via external competition you're probably good to go before 2 years in the DFA? Happy to be corrected though!

Apologies, you're correct. Two years in CS rather than the Dept specifically.

PurpleRainx · 27-11-2020 7:01pm

When can we expect results of stage 3? Reckon interviews will be this side of Christmas? Hope those of us lucky enough to progress to Stage 4 will have ample time to prepare (unlike stage 3!)

27-11-2020 7:20pm

Does the order of merit reset at this stage - as in, we’re all at 0 and then they create a brand new one based on the précis.

Or do they adjust your place on the OOM and it’s a combination of stage 1, 2 and 3. Or a combo of 2 and 3.

My understanding was that OOM was reset with each stage but it seems a lot to reset it for final stage on basis of just one written exercise (when in non-COVID times the précis was at an earlier stage and only one component out of a few at the assessment centre).

But I suppose they’re working off a shortlist at this point anyway, so maybe it does make sense to use the précis as the only judgement of whether you’ll proceed to interview as you have already made it to stage 3.

FenFlynn · 28-11-2020 8:32pm

Does anyone have any idea how many might be placed on a panel this time around?
Is it a 2 year or 1 year panel like the AO one?

exitstageleft · 28-11-2020 9:47pm

FenFlynn wrote: »

Does anyone have any idea how many might be placed on a panel this time around?
Is it a 2 year or 1 year panel like the AO one?

I think it's very rarely a one-year panel (but there were ones in both 2017 and 2018). It's often a two-year panel but it can be longer (as I think it was during the recession).

After making a hames of the first test I'd much rather it be a one year panel but that's pretty unlikely!

FenFlynn · 29-11-2020 12:08pm

exitstageleft wrote: »

I think it's very rarely a one-year panel (but there were ones in both 2017 and 2018). It's often a two-year panel but it can be longer (as I think it was during the recession).

After making a hames of the first test I'd much rather it be a one year panel but that's pretty unlikely!

I do believe it's a two year panel after reading through some previous posts. It's no indication as to how many positions are available though.
Stage 1 definitely could be improved via practice, I've never done so well in any of the previous competitions but this year I did a lot of practice beforehand and scored quite surprisingly well.

spritefeedback · 29-11-2020 1:41pm

CrouchTiger wrote: »

I think the idea of going for promotion after 1 year as TS is probably a bit crazy. I mean, people have done it, but you can't realistically expect a promotion to FS till you've gone on posting, and that would mean usually at least 2 years at HQ and 4 years on post, so 6 years. In a word, the competition for a very small number of promotions is going to be very, very intense. The salary difference at the top end for TS (say after 10 years) and the starting salary for FS are not that big.

I don't really know what you mean about quotas or process. An internal competition is for DFA candidates only, and external competition can be anyone, including DFA candidates. The opportunities will just depend on your CV I guess. Someone might come in with great experience that could see them promoted very quickly.

That's more or less what I would have expected. Promotion will always depend on examples for an interview and to manage it quickly you would have to have enough relevant examples from before joining.

Maybe quotas is the wrong term but another thread discussed departments having a 2:1 ratio of external to internal people for each competition. Maybe that is the general service wide competitions only.

Benarros · 29-11-2020 4:53pm

PurpleRainx wrote: »

When can we expect results of stage 3? Reckon interviews will be this side of Christmas? Hope those of us lucky enough to progress to Stage 4 will have ample time to prepare (unlike stage 3!)

Has anybody knows when the third stage will happen? How can you prepare for the interview? Are the competencies the same as the AO/HEO, for example, leadership, analysis and decision making? Will they ask the same questions of the interview recorded followed up with probing questions?

gaillimhjon · 04-12-2020 4:22pm

Just got some feedback from the development specialist interviews !

04-12-2020 4:37pm

gaillimhjon wrote: »

Just got some feedback from the development specialist interviews !

Do you receive the result of the précis and details of stage 4?

spritefeedback · 04-12-2020 5:03pm

gaillimhjon wrote: »

Just got some feedback from the development specialist interviews !

Three questions :-)
Did you pass?
Did you request it?
Did you find it helpful?

gaillimhjon · 04-12-2020 6:33pm

spritefeedback wrote: »

Three questions :-)
Did you pass?
Did you request it?
Did you find it helpful?

Hi

! I didn’t pass, failed 2 questions, and for those 2 questions I got feedback. I found it useful yes, and will take it onboard. I didn’t request the feedback, they said in their original results message that feedback would be issued in the coming weeks to those who didn’t pass the entire interview.

Alrite_ · 04-12-2020 6:39pm

Thanks for letting us know. Just wondering when did you find out the results of the precis? Or did they invite you to the interview without you knowing the results of the written exercise?

gaillimhjon · 04-12-2020 6:56pm

Alrite_ wrote: »

Thanks for letting us know. Just wondering when did you find out the results of the precis? Or did they invite you to the interview without you knowing the results of the written exercise?

Hi! I haven’t received my precis stage 3 results for third secretary yet! This was just feedback for the DSO stage 2 that I didn’t pass! Hopefully precis results come soon for us!

04-12-2020 7:43pm

Disappointed we didn’t hear today about stage 3 results. They said stage 4 would take place early December so looks like there’ll be very little notice (for those lucky enough to go through) , as they did with stage 3...

ddpas · 04-12-2020 8:19pm

There was about 8 days notice for the AO interviews

spritefeedback · 05-12-2020 12:54am

gaillimhjon wrote: »

Hi ! I didn’t pass, failed 2 questions, and for those 2 questions I got feedback. I found it useful yes, and will take it onboard. I didn’t request the feedback, they said in their original results message that feedback would be issued in the coming weeks to those who didn’t pass the entire interview.

The questions for DSA were very different to the third sec. I would suspect that most people did better with the third sec questions. It is good that they automatically provide feedback and better yet that it was helpful.

Hope the precis excercise went well for you.

07-12-2020 5:16pm

Going mad waiting for news!!!! Hope it’s today, watching my phone

Amazon88 · 07-12-2020 5:28pm

Did anyone hear anything yet? 17 days until Christmas...

blithe · 07-12-2020 5:31pm

Hoping we get the results soon! Preferably today or tomorrow ðŸ€ž Just want to know at this stage haha

John45 · 07-12-2020 5:38pm

Theres a lot of movement in d dept now
Internal promotions, postings etc .so keep ur hopes up

FenFlynn · 08-12-2020 5:40pm

Another day with no news..
I just want to be put out of my misery at this stage.

08-12-2020 6:03pm

We got such little notice for stage 3 so it is annoying that they’re taking a while... and they said early December for stage 4...

ticklemonster · 08-12-2020 7:01pm

It is possible that only a small proportion of people at stage 3 are being interviewed and hence only the top 40/50 or so have heard anything. Basing this on the Admin officer thread though

CrouchTiger · 08-12-2020 8:04pm

I think you'll probably hear shortly. The Department is absolutely slammed with Brexit, postings, an A/Sec competition, a Counsellor competition, and many other HR concerns. The delay is pretty inevitable when you also consider the COVID demands. The précis pieces need to be marked by colleagues already overworked, so I'm sure that may be part of it.

08-12-2020 8:26pm

ticklemonster wrote: »

It is possible that only a small proportion of people at stage 3 are being interviewed and hence only the top 40/50 or so have heard anything. Basing this on the Admin officer thread though

I think everyone in the AO competition received their spot on the order of merit though so they had that news at least

PeachL00pies · 10-12-2020 12:13pm

Results are out. No OOM.

emhds · 10-12-2020 12:14pm

So those with a score of 42 or higher being called. Does that mean that those who have qualified but did not get a high enough score may be called forward to interview in the future?

PeachL00pies · 10-12-2020 12:17pm

emhds wrote: »

So those with a score of 42 or higher being called. Does that mean that those who have qualified but did not get a high enough score may be called forward to interview in the future?

They actually didn't clarify. Which is disappointing. I passed and scored just under the mark, so to not have the opportunity to interview now is a let down.

FenFlynn · 10-12-2020 12:18pm

I got no results, does that mean I failed?

thirdsecmaybe · 10-12-2020 12:20pm

I've got a score of 36 - anyone have an idea how likely I am to be called to a potential second round of interviews?

Amazon88 · 10-12-2020 12:20pm

Same here, scored 40. Gutted.

belgowho · 10-12-2020 12:21pm

Yea id like to know those who got under 42, are they gonna get called in future. I know previous competitions, people interviewed a year after the competition started. I hope it will be the same.

FenFlynn · 10-12-2020 12:21pm

As expected I failed. Good luck to those going forward.

PearseCork92 · 10-12-2020 12:37pm

PeachL00pies wrote: »

They actually didn't clarify. Which is disappointing. I passed and scored just under the mark, so to not have the opportunity to interview now is a let down.

I'd suspect if they didn't outright say you're eliminated they'll keep you on ice depending on how many they intend to hire over the duration of the campaign. Wouldn't lose hope just yet.

Third Secretary & Development Specialist Campaign 2020

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