Dublin - BusConnects

LXFlyer · 09-03-2021 12:20am

MJohnston wrote: »

I see, well aside from not really thinking they look that wide (they look barely sufficient tbh, but the camera perspective makes it hard to say for sure) that seems like not a problem. As long it doesn’t cause any disruption between now and whenever the BC corridors are constructed, I think they should remain. In this case I don’t think they do.

I think that you misread the earlier post and conflated two different points - in that particular example the other poster was suggesting that there seems to be a conflict between what is in the BusConnects corridor plan and what has been physically put in there and was suggesting that that would be a potential row in the making in locations like that when BusConnects corridors comes to be implemented.

MJohnston wrote: »

It’s a different story perhaps in places where active mobility measures *are* disrupting buses in the knowledge that it’d be temporary. I’m not sure I’ve seen many places where that is true.

An example of what I was referring to are the measures in Dundrum Village where temporary measures were introduced involving converting the Main Strert to be one way traffic northbound but which were not particularly an improvement for bus users, and which if traffic levels revert and bus usage numbers return across the city will become more of an issue. It’s an example of where the overall impact on the bus service isn’t particularly obvious right now due to low usage.

I think that it will need a proper long term traffic plan in due course for Dundrum Village area.

Qrt · 09-03-2021 3:39am

LXFlyer wrote: »

The third round of public consultations was completed in December 2020.

The next phase is to commence planning application direct to ABP later this year.

Paschal Donohoe recently indicated on his website that this was likely to be during April or May.

The NTA indicated previously that it was likely to submit separate planning applications for the corridors, but that may change - we will have to wait and see.

So we won’t see the final plans until the planning is submitted? Grand. I really hope they do cop on with the cycling junctions though. If that one in Ballymun is replicated across the whole city...disaster.

MJohnston · 09-03-2021 10:55am

LXFlyer wrote: »

I think that you misread the earlier post and conflated two different points - in that particular example the other poster was suggesting that there seems to be a conflict between what is in the BusConnects corridor plan and what has been physically put in there and was suggesting that that would be a potential row in the making in locations like that when BusConnects corridors comes to be implemented.

No, I understand what was said, I just don't think there will be any hassle as long as the temporary infrastructure can remain until the BusConnects corridor begins implementation.

riddlinrussell · 09-03-2021 11:00am

MJohnston wrote: »

No, I understand what was said, I just don't think there will be any hassle as long as the temporary infrastructure can remain until the BusConnects corridor begins implementation.

I reckon in places where pedestrians and cyclists have been 'liberated' there will be pushback unless there is a redesign of that section to account for the fact that some people have realised they don't need as much car space.

spaceHopper · 09-03-2021 11:09am

Qrt wrote: »

I had a burst of optimism today about the CRCs. I think the strategy of aiming high by the NTA has worked in their favour. I can’t see any major hurdles to getting bus priority on the sixteen routes. The way it boiled down to trees vs detours really showed the hypocrisy of some of the specific community groups.

I have some reservations about the bike junctions, but overall I’m fairly happy with the way the city is going. There’s no real point to this post but I just thought I’d say it anyway.

If you lived in Shankill you wouldn't be say that,
The first published plan was riddled with errors,
They said it was 13KM, actually it 13 miles 20 ish KM if they can't even get the units right !
They said it would not affect parking in the village as there was none. In fact there is and it would all be taken.
They down played the trees to be take out and how that would change the environment. Between the Bray roundabout and Shankill is very green huge chestnut trees taking them out would effective make it like the ****ty bypass running through one of the last villages in Dublin.
They wanted to divert a foot path in to the park, would any woman feel safe walking in there after dark.

It was clear for the plan that it was badly thought out and they hadn't done a boots on the ground survey or walk about. After the first consultation there as a flurry of people taking measurements.

Oh and the time to get form the Bray roundabout to the other side of shankill would improve by a minute or two it's not a significant bottleneck.

marno21 · 10-03-2021 5:04pm

The NTA have commenced a pre-application consultation with An Bord Pleanala for the Core Bus Corridors project

http://www.pleanala.ie/casenum/309584.htm

yascaoimhin · 25-03-2021 12:06pm

Just a reminder that we're by no means finished talking about Trees and Cycle lanes
https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1375039308466434053?s=20

cgcsb · 25-03-2021 12:18pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Just a reminder that we're by no means finished talking about Trees and Cycle lanes
https://twitter.com/DublinCommuters/status/1375039308466434053?s=20

Should we be concerned that the map seems to not cover a large % of the actual orbital routes. The O (most important) is barely touched there.

yascaoimhin · 25-03-2021 12:26pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Should we be concerned that the map seems to not cover a large % of the actual orbital routes. The O (most important) is barely touched there.

Whilst it's highly unlikely we'll see the O being designated as one of these Core bus Corridors, the reconfiguration of the North and South Circulars is something I know Dublin City Council is looking at separately.

The idea of having an inner-city orbital was something that was born out of the Network Redesign, suggested by Jarret Walker and Co in 2018/2019. At that point the Orbital Bus Corridors had already been agreed to in the Transport Strategy in 2016 and the North and South Circulars weren't part of it.

It's worth remembering that the specific alignment of the corridors are just guides until preliminary studies are carried out which haven't happened yet. It's also worth remembering that the Transport Strategy is in the process of being reviewed so it's possible the NTA are waiting until that review is complete before deciding whether the north and South Circulars reconfiguration for bus and bike travel should be their or Dublin City Councils responsibility

LXFlyer · 25-03-2021 1:48pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Whilst it's highly unlikely we'll see the O being designated as one of these Core bus Corridors, the reconfiguration of the North and South Circulars is something I know Dublin City Council is looking at separately.

The idea of having an inner-city orbital was something that was born out of the Network Redesign, suggested by Jarret Walker and Co in 2018/2019. At that point the Orbital Bus Corridors had already been agreed to in the Transport Strategy in 2016 and the North and South Circulars weren't part of it.

It's worth remembering that the specific alignment of the corridors are just guides until preliminary studies are carried out which haven't happened yet. It's also worth remembering that the Transport Strategy is in the process of being reviewed so it's possible the NTA are waiting until that review is complete before deciding whether the north and South Circulars reconfiguration for bus and bike travel should be their or Dublin City Councils responsibility

Well without any additional priority, the O will not function properly at peak times.

Years of experience along the SCR tells me that. Without CPO there, it's going to be very difficult to deliver any additional priority for that route.

As to the other corridors, they will have to correspond to the orbital routes in the network review, so it's pretty obvious where they would be needed.

I remain VERY skeptical with regards to how much priority can be delivered along the inner orbital bus routes on the south side, such as the S2 and S4, given that it is planned for general traffic to be re-routed along many of those roads from the radial routes such as Kimmage Road and Rathmines where the bus gates are planned.

Most of the roads used by the S2 and S4 are two lane roads, far narrower than the radial routes and the scope for widening is minimal, especially at the pinch points. You would talking about far greater amounts of CPO than on the radial routes, and frankly that's going to be pretty toxic politically.

I think that debate will be pushed well down the road unfortunately. The NTA will want to get the radial corridors progressing I think first.

The outer routes such as the S6 and S8 already have bus priority measures for much of the roads they will travel along, so aren't as big an issue, but will need attention at pinch points.

cgcsb · 25-03-2021 2:34pm

yascaoimhin wrote: »

Whilst it's highly unlikely we'll see the O being designated as one of these Core bus Corridors, the reconfiguration of the North and South Circulars is something I know Dublin City Council is looking at separately.

The idea of having an inner-city orbital was something that was born out of the Network Redesign, suggested by Jarret Walker and Co in 2018/2019. At that point the Orbital Bus Corridors had already been agreed to in the Transport Strategy in 2016 and the North and South Circulars weren't part of it.

It's worth remembering that the specific alignment of the corridors are just guides until preliminary studies are carried out which haven't happened yet. It's also worth remembering that the Transport Strategy is in the process of being reviewed so it's possible the NTA are waiting until that review is complete before deciding whether the north and South Circulars reconfiguration for bus and bike travel should be their or Dublin City Councils responsibility

The O bus has to be on a core orbital corridor, it's the most important orbital, arguably the most important new route in all of bus connects, a game changer, it has to work. That doesn't mean there must be continuous bus lanes though.

Removing street parking on the NCR west of Phibsboro and replacing with segregated cycle lanes is possible. Throw in a bus gate at the main cross roads in Phibsboro and another at Adelaide Rd/Fitzwilliam st and you're half way there. Make the cycle lanes on NCR east of Phibs parking protected. Same job on SCR. Very doable, no need for a drop of CPO either, just restrict cars.

Car numbers will collapse anyway after the radial CBCs are done because driving will become too indirect to be competitive with the bus / active modes.

riddlinrussell · 25-03-2021 3:19pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The O bus has to be on a core orbital corridor, it's the most important orbital, arguably the most important new route in all of bus connects, a game changer, it has to work. That doesn't mean there must be continuous bus lanes though.

Removing street parking on the NCR west of Phibsboro and replacing with segregated cycle lanes is possible. Throw in a bus gate at the main cross roads in Phibsboro and another at Adelaide Rd/Fitzwilliam st and you're half way there. Make the cycle lanes on NCR east of Phibs parking protected. Same job on SCR. Very doable, no need for a drop of CPO either, just restrict cars.

Car numbers will collapse anyway after the radial CBCs are done because driving will become too indirect to be competitive with the bus / active modes.

I haven't gone through and checked, but how many turning lanes are there at junctions along the SCR/NCR? Each of those becoming a priority bus gate instead would be a huge time save for the O route. Along with any junctions where the lane width becomes extra generous.

cgcsb · 25-03-2021 3:49pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

I haven't gone through and checked, but how many turning lanes are there at junctions along the SCR/NCR? Each of those becoming a priority bus gate instead would be a huge time save for the O route. Along with any junctions where the lane width becomes extra generous.

There's some crazy wide lanes all over Dublin. I'd love to know what the original logic behind them was, not quite big enough for 2 cars to pass but may enough for one to partially mount the pavement and put the flashers on while the other passes unhindered.

I bet that was part of the rationale.

LXFlyer · 25-03-2021 4:04pm

cgcsb wrote: »

The O bus has to be on a core orbital corridor, it's the most important orbital, arguably the most important new route in all of bus connects, a game changer, it has to work. That doesn't mean there must be continuous bus lanes though.

Removing street parking on the NCR west of Phibsboro and replacing with segregated cycle lanes is possible. Throw in a bus gate at the main cross roads in Phibsboro and another at Adelaide Rd/Fitzwilliam st and you're half way there. Make the cycle lanes on NCR east of Phibs parking protected. Same job on SCR. Very doable, no need for a drop of CPO either, just restrict cars.

Car numbers will collapse anyway after the radial CBCs are done because driving will become too indirect to be competitive with the bus / active modes.

I think that, not for the first time, your post above is a tad over-optimistic, specifically that car numbers "will collapse".

A little bit of realism here is needed, rather than simply pure idealism.

While car numbers will undoubtedly reduce, there's still going to be a reasonablly significant amount of car traffic that will be using the city's roads, and particularly those planned for some of the inner orbital bus routes, as they are the planned diversion roads from the likes of Kimmage Road and Rathmines Road. The Stillorgan QBC for example didn't kill off car traffic along that route.

There are of course small things that could be done, such as widening the turn at Kelly's Corner to allow buses and cars turn left alongside one another, and perhaps restricting some of the turns off the road, but there are limits to the scale that this can be done.

The SCR betwen Leonard's Corner and Kelly's Corner simply isn't wide enough for two lanes of traffic and two bus lanes, and that's before you even think of adding dedicated cycle lanes too. That's one of the worst points for bus congestion as it is, but I can think of others too - the nose-to-kerb parking just west of Dolphin's Barn Crossroads is a humdinger of bad design.

I really don't think that we will see significant changes in priority before the new routes are implemented - remember that they are due to start next year.

cgcsb · 25-03-2021 4:10pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

I think that, not for the first time, your post above is a tad over-optimistic,

Wow, we're doing character bits now.

LXFlyer wrote: »

A little bit of realism here is needed, rather than simply pure idealism.

While car numbers will undoubtedly reduce, there's still going to be a reasonablly significant amount of car traffic that will be using the city's roads, and particularly those planned for some of the inner orbital bus routes, as they are the planned diversion roads from the likes of Kimmage Road and Rathmines Road. The Stillorgan QBC for example didn't kill off car traffic along that route.

There are of course small things that could be done, such as widening the turn at Kelly's Corner to allow buses and cars turn left alongside one another, and perhaps restricting some of the turns off the road, but there are limits to the scale that this can be done.

The SCR betwen Leonard's Corner and Kelly's Corner simply isn't wide enough for two lanes of traffic and two bus lanes, and that's before you even think of adding dedicated cycle lanes too. That's one of the worst points for bus congestion as it is, but I can think of others too - the nose-to-kerb parking just west of Dolphin's Barn Crossroads is a humdinger of bad design.

I really don't think that we will see significant changes in priority before the new routes are implemented - remember that they are due to start next year.

I was talking more in the context of Central Dublin, bus gates at Rathmines, Prussia St, Kilmainham etc coupled with reduced traffic lanes, reduced on street parking, pedestrianisation schemes and various other cycling schemes will no doubt mean a drastic reduction of cars, at least within the central area, perhaps even knock on closure of car parks.

Victor · 25-03-2021 4:23pm

cgcsb wrote: »

There's some crazy wide lanes all over Dublin. I'd love to know what the original logic behind them was, not quite big enough for 2 cars to pass but may enough for one to partially mount the pavement and put the flashers on while the other passes unhindered.

They were built four horse carts wide.

LXFlyer · 25-03-2021 4:39pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Wow, we're doing character bits now.

I was talking more in the context of Central Dublin, bus gates at Rathmines, Prussia St, Kilmainham etc coupled with reduced traffic lanes, reduced on street parking, pedestrianisation schemes and various other cycling schemes will no doubt mean a drastic reduction of cars, at least within the central area, perhaps even knock on closure of car parks.

For absolute clarity, I was referring to the language used in your post ("total collapse...").

The discussion was about the orbital routes, not the city centre.

I can certainly see traffic levels in the very centre of the city reducing significantly, but when you get out to the likes of the NCR/SCR, the Grand Canal and the planned inner orbital bus routes, I don't see a "total collapse" or drastic reduction happening. If anything those routes will be far more congested than before.

riddlinrussell · 25-03-2021 4:51pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The SCR betwen Leonard's Corner and Kelly's Corner simply isn't wide enough for two lanes of traffic and two bus lanes, and that's before you even think of adding dedicated cycle lanes too. That's one of the worst points for bus congestion as it is, but I can think of others too - the nose-to-kerb parking just west of Dolphin's Barn Crossroads is a humdinger of bad design.

Had a quick look at Leonards corner, there is a turning lane coming both directions at that junction on the SCR, if they were changed to bus priority lights then the bus would sail through and up to the next junction (which hopefully would also have same priority junction setup)

Ensure light sequences are timed so the bus will arrive at the priority light before traffic can build up enough to block the lane split and buses will be able to sail along the route regardless of other priority measures.

LXFlyer · 25-03-2021 5:07pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Had a quick look at Leonards corner, there is a turning lane coming both directions at that junction on the SCR, if they were changed to bus priority lights then the bus would sail through and up to the next junction (which hopefully would also have same priority junction setup)

Ensure light sequences are timed so the bus will arrive at the priority light before traffic can build up enough to block the lane split and buses will be able to sail along the route regardless of other priority measures.

The problem is not that junction per se, but rather the whole section from Kelly's Corner back to Leonard's Corner in the morning peak.

The traffic can back up the entire length of that section, and the bus lane only starts after Emor Street which is roughly halfway along that section. That means buses can take 15 minutes to cover that section. I've had to resort to getting off buses at the first stop on the SCR and walk to Camden Street and catch the departure or two departures ahead of mine at times which is ludicrous.

The road is simply not wide enough to accommodate an inbound bus lane there as there's an outbound one which is needed in the evening peak.

Add to that the bus lane being blocked by left turning traffic off the SCR at various junctions and traffic joining the SCR from side streets, and it's a mess.

Most of the traffic from the SCR continues around onto Charlotte Way and points east from there, which in turn means that most of it has then to cross the LUAS line at the Harcourt Street / Hatch Street junction leading to tailbacks at peak times where LUAS frequency is high.

riddlinrussell · 25-03-2021 5:18pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

The problem is not that junction per se, but rather the whole section from Kelly's Corner back to Leonard's Corner in the morning peak.

The traffic can back up the entire length of that section, and the bus lane only starts after Emor Street which is roughly halfway along that section. That means buses can take 15 minutes to cover that section. I've had to resort to getting off buses at the first stop on the SCR and walk to Camden Street and catch the departure or two departures ahead of mine at times which is ludicrous.

The road is simply not wide enough to accommodate an inbound bus lane there as there's an outbound one which is needed in the evening peak.

Add to that the bus lane being blocked by left turning traffic off the SCR at various junctions and traffic joining the SCR from side streets, and it's a mess.

Most of the traffic from the SCR continues around onto Charlotte Way and points east from there, which in turn means that most of it has then to cross the LUAS line at the Harcourt Street / Hatch Street junction leading to tailbacks at peak times where LUAS frequency is high.

Aye but I wasn't proposing a bus lane at all along there?

LXFlyer · 25-03-2021 5:27pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Aye but I wasn't proposing a bus lane at all along there?

Well you did say "buses will be able to sail along the route".

Leonard's Corner junction itself really isn't a major issue.

I am making the point that the actual SCR itself is the problem as it isn't wide enough at many locations. Widening it further would be difficult.

It is likely that the "O" will have the exact same problems that the 9, 16, 68/a and 122 have right now (well pre-Covid).

riddlinrussell · 25-03-2021 5:33pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Well you did say "buses will be able to sail along the route".

Leonard's Corner junction itself really isn't a major issue.

I am making the point that the actual SCR itself is a problem as it isn't wide enough at many locations. And the "O" will have the same problems that the 9, 16, 68/a and 122 have right now.

I was proposing that bus gates + strategic lighting sequences could achieve something at least some of the way towards what full bus lanes would, if buses go first at junctions, and the queue allowed to build up at the next junction is timed correctly a bus could pass the priority light at Leonards corner, drive along an open lane of mixed traffic, sharing it only with cars from side roads, reach the next junction where 2 or 3 cars have built up waiting, move into the next bus priority light and be on its way as soon as the sequence changes.

cgcsb · 30-03-2021 2:58pm

Latest conventional wisdom from the NTA now points to waiting until lockdown is over to START introducing the revised network.
I myself would see lockdown as the ideal opportunity to roll it out in it's entirety. Never waste a crisis and all that. The rationale for this is a nebulous spiel about having to 'reintroduce people' to the new system when lockdown ends or something like that.

Painful to say the least.

BonnieSituation · 30-03-2021 3:18pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Latest conventional wisdom from the NTA now points to waiting until lockdown is over to START introducing the revised network.
I myself would see lockdown as the ideal opportunity to roll it out in it's entirety. Never waste a crisis and all that. The rationale for this is a nebulous spiel about having to 'reintroduce people' to the new system when lockdown ends or something like that.

Painful to say the least.

Yup.

Heard the very same thing from an NTA higher up on a zoom call a few weeks back. My jaw dropped. When I probed further I was told that there's too much change going on as it is.

Absolutely mindboggling.

LXFlyer · 30-03-2021 3:41pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Latest conventional wisdom from the NTA now points to waiting until lockdown is over to START introducing the revised network.
I myself would see lockdown as the ideal opportunity to roll it out in it's entirety. Never waste a crisis and all that. The rationale for this is a nebulous spiel about having to 'reintroduce people' to the new system when lockdown ends or something like that.

Painful to say the least.

You clearly have no idea about how complicated this change is and in particular the work involved in coming up with new integrated schedules on the Spines.

Scheduling is a very specialised skill, and needless to say Dublin Bus do not have armies of schedulers available to roll this out. They are limited in number as it is so specialised. Covid is also not helping.

Coming up with the schedules is tricky enough, but it is the supporting rosters for the drivers and vehicles that is the really difficult part of the process, and in particular ensuring that they are in compliance with the EU Working Time directive.

Add to that the issue that the entire timetabling process, and the customer facing timetables are changing for Dublin Bus, to one of developing public stop specific timetables rather than one based simply on terminus departure times. The company's performance will be measured on the individual stop specific times, which complicates this even further.

All that information has to get uploaded into journey planners and Google Maps and there are not inconsequential lead times involved in that process.

Add to that the complication of trying to schedule even headways in both directions along the various spines. That's going to be very tricky to deliver in my view where the routes start at different locations, given that journey times can vary from one departure to the next quite randomly depending on traffic light sequencing etc.

Up until now, Dublin Bus have changed the stop-by-stop timetables on a rolling basis to match traffic levels, but the customer never really knew this as they were more or less internal times.

With the rollout of the new network the times at each stop will be fixed and will only be changing as part of a formal timetable change.

So what intermediate times would you roll out right now, and what do you when all of a sudden lockdown ends, and the traffic levels increase once again and totally new schedules (with full publicity at every stop) need to be rolled out due to the current times being too tight?

Incidentally the schedulers would have been busy working on special rosters to keep all of the drivers working during Covid, as the Saturday schedule requires less drivers than a normal weekday. Duties are being split up as I understand it.

Rolling out a new network is a massively complicated given the new layers of detail and the notion that you could roll out the entire network in such a short space of time as you think is possible is ludicrous.

That being said, the stops along the H Spine have now been rebranded and the public information panels redesigned.

Better to launch this when full Monday-Friday timetables are up and running again, rather than having a false launch and then have to redo it all a few weeks later.

This post by Peregrine in C & T outlines some of the complexity involved from what I understand is an internal NTA document.

Peregrine wrote: »

BonnieSituation · 30-03-2021 4:04pm

Let's hold up there.

There's no need to jump at that poster for what they have stated.

Regardless of scheduling and the logistics behind what needs to be done it has been stated on numerous occasions that the reason behind the delay is because of "the issues the public would have with the changes during covid".

The problems behind the scenes are of no consequence to the general public in the grand scheme, they just want to get their bus.

The NTA can easily state that the logistics are too onerous to introduce the changes during covid rather than state that the public wouldn't be able for it. But they're not.

LXFlyer · 30-03-2021 4:18pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Let's hold up there.

There's no need to jump at that poster for what they have stated.

Regardless of scheduling and the logistics behind what needs to be done it has been stated on numerous occasions that the reason behind the delay is because of "the issues the public would have with the changes during covid".

The problems behind the scenes are of no consequence to the general public in the grand scheme, they just want to get their bus.

The NTA can easily state that the logistics are too onerous to introduce the changes during covid rather than state that the public wouldn't be able for it. But they're not.

Sorry, but quite frankly I was focussing on the notion, which that poster has made in several posts over some time, that it is very simple to deliver this, and that it could all be done in weeks.

It just really annoys me, as it is anything but.

As someone who has a very detailed understanding of what is involved (having had a long interest in timetables and scheduling), it's so irritating to see posts like that suggesting that could be done quickly.

It can't.

However, I suspect that there is also an element of H & S involved here too with what you are referring to from the NTA. With the rollout of a brand new network, publicity needs to be maximised and you are going to need reasonably large numbers of bodies on the ground at bus stops directing people to make this work, as past experience shows that huge numbers of people will not have a clue about this, no matter how much publicity online, in papers, onboard buses and at stops there is.

Being in Level 5, I very much doubt that is going to be remotelty an option.

cgcsb · 30-03-2021 4:31pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

You clearly have no idea about how complicated this change is and in particular the work involved in coming up with new integrated schedules on the Spines.

Scheduling is a very specialised skill, and needless to say Dublin Bus do not have armies of schedulers available to roll this out. They are limited in number as it is so specialised. Covid is also not helping.

Coming up with the schedules is tricky enough, but it is the supporting rosters for the drivers and vehicles that is the really difficult part of the process, and in particular ensuring that they are in compliance with the EU Working Time directive.

Add to that the issue that the entire timetabling process, and the customer facing timetables are changing for Dublin Bus, to one of developing public stop specific timetables rather than one based simply on terminus departure times. The company's performance will be measured on the individual stop specific times, which complicates this even further.

All that information has to get uploaded into journey planners and Google Maps and there are not inconsequential lead times involved in that process.

Add to that the complication of trying to schedule even headways in both directions along the various spines. That's going to be very tricky to deliver in my view where the routes start at different locations, given that journey times can vary from one departure to the next quite randomly depending on traffic light sequencing etc.

Up until now, Dublin Bus have changed the stop-by-stop timetables on a rolling basis to match traffic levels, but the customer never really knew this as they were more or less internal times.

With the rollout of the new network the times at each stop will be fixed and will only be changing as part of a formal timetable change.

So what intermediate times would you roll out right now, and what do you when all of a sudden lockdown ends, and the traffic levels increase once again and totally new schedules (with full publicity at every stop) need to be rolled out due to the current times being too tight?

Incidentally the schedulers would have been busy working on special rosters to keep all of the drivers working during Covid, as the Saturday schedule requires less drivers than a normal weekday. Duties are being split up as I understand it.

Rolling out a new network is a massively complicated given the new layers of detail and the notion that you could roll out the entire network in such a short space of time as you think is possible is ludicrous.

That being said, the stops along the H Spine have now been rebranded and the public information panels redesigned.

Better to launch this when full Monday-Friday timetables are up and running again, rather than having a false launch and then have to redo it all a few weeks later.

This post by Peregrine in C & T outlines some of the complexity involved from what I understand is an internal NTA document.

None of this was mentioned as a particular difficulty during the pandemic as far as I am aware. I never claimed that it was a simple task, I claimed it was a task that could be easier done during the pandemic when there will be less public scrutiny if there are any hiccups. The same number of timetable changes will be required regardless if they are done now or in 2024. NTA are claiming the hold up is due to their perception of the public being unable to cope with it.

LXFlyer · 30-03-2021 4:37pm

cgcsb wrote: »

None of this was mentioned as a particular difficulty during the pandemic as far as I am aware. I never claimed that it was a simple task, I claimed it was a task that could be easier done during the pandemic when there will be less public scrutiny if there are any hiccups. The same number of timetable changes will be required regardless if they are done now or in 2024. NTA are claiming the hold up is due to their perception of the public being unable to cope with it.

Sorry, but you have posted that the network implementation could and should be done very quickly.

I am pointing out to you that it just simply cannot happen quickly due to the complexity involved in the work to deliver the service. It can take considerable time to get schedules drawn up with the supporting rosters, and to get them agreed with the driver unions.

I just didn't get the impression that you actually understood what is involved in this.

I also suspect that with schedulers presumably working from home and in all likelhihood covid absences from garages (one of the reasons for the reduced service levels), I very much doubt that this is any easier to deliver. If anything it is harder.

But as I suggested above, I suspect that the other issue is that you can't have people out on street to direct people to the right bus. And yes that is needed. The confusion during Network Direct was something else, despite posters, leaflets, newspaper ads etc., etc.

Despite the consultations and publicity about this, I will guarantee you that a sizeable number of people will not have a clue about it. Hence you need bodies on the ground to explain it.

cgcsb · 30-03-2021 4:51pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Sorry, but you have posted that the network implementation could and should be done very quickly.

I am pointing out to you that it just simply cannot happen quickly due to the complexity involved in the work to deliver the service. It can take considerable time to get schedules drawn up with the supporting rosters, and to get them agreed with the driver unions.

I just didn't get the impression that you actually understood what is involved in this.

I also suspect that with schedulers presumably working from home and in all likelhihood covid absences from garages (one of the reasons for the reduced service levels), I very much doubt that this is any easier to deliver. If anything it is harder.

But as I suggested above, I suspect that the other issue is that you can't have people out on street to direct people to the right bus. And yes that is needed. The confusion during Network Direct was something else, despite posters, leaflets, newspaper ads etc., etc.

Despite the consultations and publicity about this, I will guarantee you that a sizeable number of people will not have a clue about it. Hence you need bodies on the ground to explain it.

We're 3 years since the launch of bus connects and the implementation of the revised network is now coming up on 2 years behind what was originally touted to be the start date of the new network (now to be phased in over 4 years). I don't expect it to be done quickly, merely stated it could and should be done quickly. Pointing out that it's a lot of work is fine and all but it's work that should be done by now, instead of sitting around saying it's a lot of work and not starting said work using far fetched excuses of public perception.

There is no real barriers as it stands to rolling out the H spine, it could be done next week if there were a will, even if the time table had to be changed post covid (will have to happen anyway).

LXFlyer · 30-03-2021 6:20pm

cgcsb wrote: »

We're 3 years since the launch of bus connects and the implementation of the revised network is now coming up on 2 years behind what was originally touted to be the start date of the new network (now to be phased in over 4 years). I don't expect it to be done quickly, merely stated it could and should be done quickly. Pointing out that it's a lot of work is fine and all but it's work that should be done by now, instead of sitting around saying it's a lot of work and not starting said work using far fetched excuses of public perception.

There is no real barriers as it stands to rolling out the H spine, it could be done next week if there were a will, even if the time table had to be changed post covid (will have to happen anyway).

Just to focus on the timeframes here, I think you need to stand back from this a bit, and perhaps realise that the NTA made serious basic mistakes in this process from the outset.

The original implementation schedule that the NTA published was bunkum, and anyone outside of the NTA with an understanding of the complexities involved in day-to-day operations would have known that. I certainly said it was nonsense at the time. But as with many things, the NTA found that out the hard way. So scrap that for a start.

Also, a lot of time was lost due to the nonsenical parameters set by the NTA in the original proposal, which they based on the responses to a very high level online survey which was massively overly-simplistic.

Then we had the original network proposal drawn up by Jarrett Walker which was based on these half-assed parameters from the NTA which involved an awful lot of people being forced to change to rail, LUAS or other buses to get to the city centre, rather than the direct service they had, and others having to walk further to get a bus. The fact that the trains, trams and buses were already full was ignored. But the NTA pushed ahead with it. It also cancelled a lot of community bus routes which many people rely on.

Much of that proposal ended up being overwhelmingly rejected by the responses to the consultation, and indeed the Taoiseach told Anne Graham to start the process again (and that is on the Dáil record).

It also didn't help that the first consultation was planned to be held during July and August when most people are on holidays. That was another mistake, which lead to the consultation period being extended significantly, but I would suggest that the number of responses to it, proved that it was the correct thing to do.

So, taking all of that into account, I would suggest that you need to look at this from the perspective that the orginal plan from July 2018 was effectively binned following that consultation, and rightly so.

I look it as that a brand new proposal was produced in October 2019, which was far more realistic. That went to consultation, and we finally got the revised network proposal in September 2020, based on the consultation in Autumn/Winter 2019, the production of which it would be fair to say was impacted by Covid.

I think that the NTA made several massive errors of judgement in the early part of this process and their communications during the first consultation was atrocious. The almost-complete lack of day-to-day operational transport experience in that organisation was telling in the early stages of the project and that unfortunately has had significant negative consequences.

We are now though at implementation stage, and it is clear finally that the NTA have realised that the idealistic timeframe they quoted orginally (one big change) was impossible.

If you look back at Network Direct, that was done over quite a few phases, and there were issues with many routes during those phases that required new driver bills and schedules to be drawn up. That took time to get right as it is complicated to do.

Implementing the H Spine in a week as you suggest isn't realistic. Sure they could renumber the individual routes. But this is about delivering a new bus service, and it is not just a renumbering exercise. The Spine concept focusses on is delivering even headways along the section of the route that the various spine routes share, both inbound and outbound. That requires completely new integrated timetables, and therefore driver and bus rosters to be drawn up.

More importantly, this project requires a completely new approach to scheduling from Dublin Bus. You may not be concerned about that, but unless the underlying processes that deliver the bus service are got right this whole exercise will collapse in a mess. It is important that they get that right.

I understand that they have been trialling stop specific timetables on the Howth Road routes (29a/31/31a/31b/32) since the winter, but with Covid lockdown levels changing and traffic levels dropping again, the running times underlying those schedules were way too generous. That meant buses having to wait at stops as they were early, something passengers were complaining about on social media.

Add to that, I believe that agreement has only recently been reached between DB and the unions on safe locations for buses to wait along routes if they are running early.

I don't think that people were sitting around doing nothing as you are implying, but developing new schedules couldn't begin to happen until the final network was decided upon by the NTA. Remember that the schedulers were also doing the normal day-to-day work as well. They are all operating company staff in the depots, and not employed by the NTA.

As I said above, you will need bodies on the ground to help people for this rollout. That's not realistic until level 5 restrictions are lifited. Never underestimate how many people find about the changes at the bus stop on the morning and first days of the change. Past experience bears that out.

There is progress. The bus stops along the Howth Road have been rebranded, stop specific timetables are being rolled out along the stops on those routes, and there will shortly be enough buses repainted in the new livery (as part of the normal repainting cycle) to allocate to the routes for phase 1 - I imagine that the NTA will want the routes to be operated by new liveried vehicles.

I would also imagine that work is taking place on the next phase too, as schedulers are garage based within Dublin Bus rather than working at head office.

But I think if I was to get one point through to you, it is that this is a slow tedious process to come up with the detailed schedules, and that's even before the additional complication of stop-by-stop schedules with even headways elements are added.

The devil is in the detail with these things, and getting that right is not something that will happen overnight.

LXFlyer · 03-04-2021 11:07am

Some more positive news.

As of this morning the map in the TFI Journey Planner app is at last displaying the live position of GoAhead buses on Dublin City services in addition to Dublin Bus vehicles.

VonLuck · 22-04-2021 8:57am

I've kind of lost track of where the BusConnects plan is at the moment. Don't hear much about it in the news. Does anyone know which routes will be implemented first and when will they start construction?

loyatemu · 22-04-2021 9:01am

VonLuck wrote: »

I've kind of lost track of where the BusConnects plan is at the moment. Don't hear much about it in the news. Does anyone know which routes will be implemented first and when will they start construction?

also when is the flat fare being introduced?

LXFlyer · 22-04-2021 9:05am

VonLuck wrote: »

I've kind of lost track of where the BusConnects plan is at the moment. Don't hear much about it in the news. Does anyone know which routes will be implemented first and when will they start construction?

Remember that BusConnects has two separate projects - the new network and the corridor infrastructure.

New network
The first phase of the new route network which is the H Spine along the Howth Road is due to be implemented during Q2 (this quarter). The C Spine (Lucan Road) is due to be implemented in the Autumn.

Corridor Infrastructure
Planning applications to be submitted this summer to An Bord Pleanála. There will be a statutory public consultation on these plans.

tobsey · 22-04-2021 12:35pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

Remember that BusConnects has two separate projects - the new network and the corridor infrastructure.

New network
The first phase of the new route network which is the H Spine along the Howth Road is due to be implemented during Q2 (this quarter). The C Spine (Lucan Road) is due to be implemented in the Autumn.

Corridor Infrastructure
Planning applications to be submitted this summer to An Bord Pleanála. There will be a statutory public consultation on these plans.

Is the rollout schedule of the new network published somewhere? I was looking for it on the busconnects website but couldn't find it.

L1011 · 22-04-2021 12:36pm

There was a published schedule but it has been significantly delayed due to the pandemic so I imagine its been un-published.

LXFlyer · 22-04-2021 12:58pm

L1011 wrote: »

There was a published schedule but it has been significantly delayed due to the pandemic so I imagine its been un-published.

The only document was an FOI request that was on twitter.

Not really "significantly" delayed.

The first phase of the network changes is only slightly behind at this stage - a couple of months.

The next one was due in the Autumn as it was.

Peregrine · 22-04-2021 1:28pm

W4 and W6 were due to start in December 2021 but it'll be June 2022 now.

Qrt · 23-04-2021 1:03am

Peregrine wrote: »

W4 and W6 were due to start in December 2021 but it'll be June 2022 now.

Ugh, both of incredible benefit to me. Oh well.

VonLuck · 23-04-2021 8:50am

Peregrine wrote: »

W4 and W6 were due to start in December 2021 but it'll be June 2022 now.

You know what, I was trying to search for the W8 route on the BusConnects map for a while yesterday and couldn't find it but see now it was a typo in your post! Does it even exist?

Zebra3 · 23-04-2021 10:27am

VonLuck wrote: »

You know what, I was trying to search for the W8 route on the BusConnects map for a while yesterday and couldn't find it but see now it was a typo in your post! Does it even exist?

W8 is from Maynooth to Tallaght.

LXFlyer · 23-04-2021 10:38am

Zebra3 wrote: »

W8 is from Maynooth to Tallaght.

That route was renumbered the W6 in the final plan published last September.

There is no W8 anymore.

Following on from the C Spine (Lucan & Maynooth) and associated local routes, the next routes to be implemented will be the N4 and N6 (replacing the 17a) at the start of next year.

It seems Dublin Bus will operate the N4 and Go Ahead the N6.

The delay to the W4 and W6 is because the NTA are putting their operation out to tender as additional routes rather than replacements.

Zebra3 · 23-04-2021 1:31pm

Fair enough. Still showing as W8 here though.

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/new-dublin-area-bus-network/local-area-maps/

LXFlyer · 23-04-2021 1:36pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Fair enough. Still showing as W8 here though.

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/new-dublin-area-bus-network/local-area-maps/

That's not the final version, but rather the last consultation in 2019.

The final maps issued in September 2020 are all linked to here:
https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/new-dublin-area-bus-network/

bk · 23-04-2021 7:16pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

It seems Dublin Bus will operate the N4 and Go Ahead the N6.

I assume you mean the N8, there is no N6 I think?

Also do you know when the N2 is supposed to be rolled out?

LXFlyer · 23-04-2021 8:48pm

bk wrote: »

I assume you mean the N8, there is no N6 I think?

Also do you know when the N2 is supposed to be rolled out?

Check the final network map here again - the route numbers all changed last September:

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/new-dublin-area-bus-network/

I do mean the N6 which will run from Finglas to Raheny.

The original plan as the FOI response was that the O & N2 would be the next set of routes after the N4 & N6 - I don’t know if that’s still the case. The O is replacing sections of existing DB routes, but the N2 is a completely new route and they may decide to put it out to tender too. But that’s supposition on my part.

The document that I had sight of was a response to a Dáil question and didn’t go beyond the N4 & N6.

bk · 25-04-2021 11:30am

Ah, I missed that they renamed those routes, thanks for the pointers LXFlyer.

LXFlyer · 30-04-2021 10:21am

More progress:

The first two vehicles of the new hybrid double deck fleet have started in public service today on route 140 between IKEA and Palmerston Park in Rathmines.

yascaoimhin · 30-04-2021 10:51am

The H Spine will launch in Mid/Late June now.

The reason for the delay is two-fold and related directly to Level 5 restrictions.

1. Some construction is required to bus stops along the spine for new bus poles, shelters and moving bus stops closer to junctions for interchange but as construction was not permitted under Level 5 that could not go-ahead

2. Prior to the launch of the Spine the NTA wanted to have brand ambassadors on the street giving people in formation on the new routes but obviously that was not permitted under Level 5.

The rest of the spines have been only slightly delayed as a result. The next Spine due for launch is the C in September, which has been pushed back to October, but the NTA said that further delays to the rollout would be recouped by them just working harder to get back on track

Dublin - BusConnects

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