Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

Bazzy · 02-11-2017 9:24pm

NH2013 wrote: »

I think instead he's referring to the fact that Ryanair are still charging their new pilots the guts of €30k for a place on a type rating course, a fact that might deter experienced pilots from considering them as an option for a career move.

Yes, 4-6 weeks of flying passengers while under training and suprivision of a training Captain. That's standard industry practice. I couldn't tell you how many they have although I have heard that a large number of them left in the last year to pastures new, which might leave them with an issue in getting new joiners up to speed and proficiency at a fast enough rate to replace the numbers leaving.

How much roughly would the least paid First officer earn in a year?

donkey balls · 02-11-2017 11:15pm

When my mate did his TR over seven years ago he was earning roughly about 50k, This goes up on the more hours you have on type.
FR train approx 600/800 cadets a year at 30k from what I'm hearing the cadets are maxing the 900 hrs out these days compared to a few years ago.

Blut2 · 02-11-2017 11:35pm

NH2013 wrote: »

Yes, 4-6 weeks of flying passengers while under training and suprivision of a training Captain. That's standard industry practice. I couldn't tell you how many they have although I have heard that a large number of them left in the last year to pastures new, which might leave them with an issue in getting new joiners up to speed and proficiency at a fast enough rate to replace the numbers leaving.

This is the biggest problem facing Ryanair currently. They can recruit new under/unqualified pilots in large numbers relatively easily still. But its the fact they're hemorrhaging Captains thats the real issue. Captains have far better options in other airlines these days, and thats why they're leaving in droves. And without the Captains to train new pilots the whole system grinds to a halt.

JCX BXC · 02-11-2017 11:38pm

donkey balls wrote: »

When my mate did his TR over seven years ago he was earning roughly about 50k, This goes up on the more hours you have on type.
FR train approx 600/800 cadets a year at 30k from what I'm hearing the cadets are maxing the 900 hrs out these days compared to a few years ago.

To think a train driver gets 60k and then strikes!

Bazzy · 03-11-2017 12:18am

donkey balls wrote: »

When my mate did his TR over seven years ago he was earning roughly about 50k, This goes up on the more hours you have on type.
FR train approx 600/800 cadets a year at 30k from what I'm hearing the cadets are maxing the 900 hrs out these days compared to a few years ago.

So how much would a training captain earn?

Bazzy · 03-11-2017 12:18am

Blut2 wrote: »

This is the biggest problem facing Ryanair currently. They can recruit new under/unqualified pilots in large numbers relatively easily still. But its the fact they're hemorrhaging Captains thats the real issue. Captains have far better options in other airlines these days, and thats why they're leaving in droves. And without the Captains to train new pilots the whole system grinds to a halt.

That could be a problem could they borrow a few from southwest ?

donkey balls · 03-11-2017 12:29am

JCX BXC wrote: »

To think a train driver gets 60k and then strikes!

That is starting off after you are released on to the line with the more experience you gain the more the $$ go up.

donkey balls · 03-11-2017 12:31am

Bazzy wrote: »

That could be a problem could they borrow a few from southwest ?

Different jurisdiction and license held along with passport/visa issues.

Comhrá · 03-11-2017 11:12am

View Profile · 03-11-2017 7:56pm

https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/1103/917332-ryanair/

So if there's no pilot shortage, why are they still denying leave?!

Lustrum · 03-11-2017 11:23pm

donkey balls wrote: »

Different jurisdiction and license held along with passport/visa issues.

Cityjet did it last year with crews from Cobham in Australia when they were screwed for captains. Don't know the ins and outs licence and visa wise but it can be done. In saying that though, maybe southwest don't have a load of spare captains either!

View Profile · 04-11-2017 10:58am

Bazzy wrote:

That could be a problem could they borrow a few from southwest ?

Not going to happen. The President of the Southwest Airline Pilot Association (SWAPA) was in Dublin 2 weeks ago lending support to the Ryanair pilots and their cause.
He and the President of the Allied Pilot's Association have offered to fly Ryanair pilots to their facility in Texas to train them in industrial relations negotiation skills.

They fully support the pilots efforts to receive decent working conditions.

Bazzy · 04-11-2017 4:48pm

Looking here ( I assume its up to date ish)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Boeing_737_operators

Theres plenty of 737-800 operators I know they were busy recruiting in Brazil, I'd say they have something up their sleeve so to speak

View Profile · 04-11-2017 6:30pm

30 Brazilian lads are arriving for selection apparently.
Whether they meet the standard is another thing.

LiamaDelta · 07-11-2017 9:36pm

Seems by todays reports the pilots are digging in their heels and looking for a Europe-wide agreement.

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/dublinbased-ryanair-captain-validates-eerc-representative-body-in-letter-to-ceo-michael-oleary-36298123.html

Brennus335 · 08-11-2017 5:52am

View Profile wrote: »

30 Brazilian lads are arriving for selection apparently.
Whether they meet the standard is another thing.

Having flown with quite a few Brazilian pilots, I'd say the number meeting the standards won't be great.
South American CRM skills tend to leave a lot to be desired. Too much "machismo" ingrained in the culture still, though it is getting better.

never_mind · 08-11-2017 3:29pm

Thought I'd update...

I applied for compensation with the EU216 form and as others have pointed out I am not entitled to be compensated as this was for safety reasons (Ophelia). However, I re-applied and 'unticked' the compensation box and was confirmed today that I am entitled to my expenses back. Just goes to show that reading the small print is a good idea.

Now I wonder how long this cheque will take to come through!

JCX BXC · 08-11-2017 4:06pm

You'll get your expenses yes

Cessna_Pilot · 10-11-2017 9:57pm

http://www.pbp.ie/the_real_story_behind_the_ryanair_cancellations

Not a fan of PBP but a lot of very interesting points raised in this article.

LeChienMefiant · 11-11-2017 9:40am

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

http://www.pbp.ie/the_real_story_behind_the_ryanair_cancellations

Not a fan of PBP but a lot of very interesting points raised in this article.

The strangest point the article makes for me...

If a pilot is flying the maximum number of hours in summer and then goes on to a different company for the remainder of that calendar year, this had potential implications for safety.

Don't they get paid by the hours they fly? So they'll have earned their money for the year.

Tenger · 11-11-2017 9:48am

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

The strangest point the article makes for me...

Don't they get paid by the hours they fly? So they'll have earned their money for the year.

Nope. Normal practise in the industry is for flight crew to have a salary and a small allowance perhaps or hours flown.

900 is a legal limit, its not the target for rostering planners to aim for.

Most airlines plan to spread the hours over the entire 12 month calender year. But because FR and EI were allowed by the IAA to retain their April-March 'year' it allowed them to frontload the workload onto their flight crew (and cabin crew BTW)

This meant that pilots were hitting their 450 mark about 4-5 months in the 12 month recording period, and 750-800 by Xmas. The airline would restrict the ability to take time off in the peak Summer season. Then in the post Xmas low demand season they would fly a lot less and be granted leave.

Brennus335 · 11-11-2017 10:16am

Tenger wrote: »

900 is a legal limit, its not the target for rostering planners to aim for.
.

Unfortunately, it is exactly the target the planners aim for now.
These figures were designed as limits, but are now seen by all airlines as targets.

It's equivalent to accelerating your car engine to the rpm red line between every gear change. Sure, you're not breaking any limits, but how's it going to affect your engine if you do it continuously?

Mebuntu · 11-11-2017 11:47am

Cessna_Pilot wrote: »

http://www.pbp.ie/the_real_story_behind_the_ryanair_cancellations

Not a fan of PBP but a lot of very interesting points raised in this article.

LOL, the PBP wouldn't have a clue about the intricacies of aviation. I'd have no doubt that the actual authors of this article would be members of one of the various incarnations of "alpas" or similar.

Blut2 · 11-11-2017 12:36pm

Mebuntu wrote: »

LOL, the PBP wouldn't have a clue about the intricacies of aviation. I'd have no doubt that the actual authors of this article would be members of one of the various incarnations of "alpas" or similar.

Did you read the article? What 'intricacies' exactly in it did you disagree with?

I'm also no fan of the PBP, but its a well informed, well thought out piece. Theres nothing to be gained in shooting the messenger when the message is the more important element.

IngazZagni · 11-11-2017 1:49pm

Tenger wrote: »

Nope. Normal practise in the industry is for flight crew to have a salary and a small allowance perhaps or hours flown.

900 is a legal limit, its not the target for rostering planners to aim for.
.

You are referring to normal companies. In Ryanair it absolutely is a target. Perhaps not 900 but 850 or so. Also still around half, if not more of pilots on Ryanair aircraft are on zero hour contracts meaning they get no salary at all and all of their income depends on hours flown.

Ryanair management continue to deflect the real problems in the company which relate to terms and conditions and try to resolve it by offering short term pay increases or through bogus productivity payments but as has has been mentioned Ryanair pilots already fly in excess of 800 hours a year, how much more productive can they get?

flexcon · 13-11-2017 1:37pm

LeChienMefiant wrote: »

The strangest point the article makes for me...

Don't they get paid by the hours they fly? So they'll have earned their money for the year.

So in this case Ryanair got the Pilot to fly say....800 hours from April 2nd to August the 1st.

August the 3rd the Pilot leaves Ryanair and Joins BA. Ba can only get the Pilot to Fly 100 hours to the year end and that's it. Come january 1st the pilots total starts again.

So in other words, once the busy season is over - it would be against the Pilots interest to leave then and join another airline, and also against that airlines advantage as they now have a newly hired Pilot but already has used 800 of his 900 allowed per calendar year

LeChienMefiant · 13-11-2017 2:03pm

The airline pays the agencies based on block (flying) hours scheduled by Ryanair. The agencies offered to pay the pilots in any bank account outside the UK. The pilots’ contract also means that they are responsible for tax and social charges.

If a pilot has flown 800 hours, have they not been paid for 800 hours? So waiting x number of months to start a new job shouldn't be an issue as they have earned 8/9ths of their possible earnings for the year.

Comhrá · 14-11-2017 12:01am

https://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/ryanair-pilots-identify-themselves-as-new-employee-council-following-rostering-fiasco-36317295.html

Five Ryanair pilots based in Portugal have identified themselves as representatives of a new employee council that aims to commence negotiations for a collective labour agreement with airline management.

The move is hugely significant in an on-going effort by a large number of Ryanair pilots to initiate collective bargaining across Europe with the airline.

In a letter sent on Monday to Ryanair chief executive Michael O'Leary, the president of Portugal's Civil Aviation Pilots' Union, Sindicato dos Pilotos da Aviacao Civil (SPAC), Alfredo Mendonca, has urged the airline to "immediately enter direct negotiations" with a newly-formed European Employee Representative Committee (EERC), as the "legitimate voice of the pilot body, to develop a framework agreement for pilot representation in Ryanair".

The EERC was formed in the wake of Ryanair's pilot rostering fiasco. The airline has said it will never negotiate with the EERC.

Ryanair instead relies on Employee Representative Committees it established across its almost 90 bases to negotiate with pilots, a system that has been in place for more than 20 years.

Mr Mendonca said in the letter to Mr O'Leary, seen by Independent.ie, that SPAC is "pleased to advise you that Ryanair pilots based in Portugal have decided to form the Ryanair Company Council in SPAC".

The SPAC president names the five pilots in the letter to Mr O'Leary.

"With appropriate support from SPAC these pilots will in due course negotiate with Ryanair on the details of a collective labour agreement," he added in the letter.

"We look forward to supporting our members in Portugal through their SPAC Company Council to engage in constructive dialogue with Ryanair."

Pilots are hoping the naming of the pilots as employees prepared to negotiate with Ryanair management will intensify pressure on the airline to engage with the EERC and commence collective bargaining.

Ryanair has been asked to comment on the letter.

Online Editors

Irish Steve · 14-11-2017 2:28am

IF ( and I'm not going to hold my breath on this one) some of the comments made earlier today by Regina Doherty are anything to go by, the days of "self employed" pilots flying 900 hours a year for Ryanair are numbered, it was very clear from the interview that the Government are looking very closely indeed at a number of aspects of the "self employed" bubble that has increased in size since the Tiger years, and it is being looked at by Social Welfare, and Revenue, and more significantly, it was made very clear that if a company is found to have forced an inappropriate status on employees, the State will have the power to seek retrospective payments in respect of things like PRSI, dated back to the start of employment. If other factors like holiday pay and entitlement are also back dated, there will be some employers who are going to be looking at very substantial bills.

While the name Ryanair did not get any mentions in the interview, it was clear that the present situation with Ryanair has been a motivation to look more closely and urgently at the way in which the system is (not) working for the self employed sector.

Action on zero hours contracts was also promised, and a strengthening of employee protections was also discussed. It was clear that the Government are determined that the construction sector in particular will no longer be able to abuse workers in the way that was often the norm during the Tiger years, and the timing of this change is clearly aimed at ensuring that these abuses are not repeated as the construction sector starts to recover from the long downturn.

What was made very clear is that the Government parties are very much aware that there have been blatant abuses of the system, and many supposedly self employed people are being denied basic employment rights by the abuse of their status.

There is a new bill in preparation and due to be released "within weeks", which will put an end to many of the abuses of employment law, and having been on the wrong end of some of those abuses for a number of years, it's long overdue, and while it will cost the employers, and some employees, the plus side will be the removal of a number of significant inequalities that have existed for many years in relation to state benefits that were never available to the self employed.

It will be interesting to see how this eventually plays out for Ryanair, as many of their pilots and ground handling staff have been either self employed or contractors for a considerable period of time. I suspect that there will be significant changes over the next months.

737max · 14-11-2017 10:25am

Any witterings you hear from politicians are only to placate the Hoi Polloi.
Ireland Inc. is going to do absolutely nothing to make Ireland less attractive to large multi-nationals of which Ryanair now is one.
The labour laws which Ryanair exploit are of benefit to other multi-nationals.

If Ireland did attempt this then you would find Ryanair and others moving the staff virtually to another more "benign" jurisdiction in the E.U. and there would be the best part of a dozen Countries lining up for the honour of hosting Ryanair and these other multi-nationals.

Irish Steve · 14-11-2017 10:44am

737max wrote: »

Any witterings you hear from politicians are only to placate the Hoi Polloi.
Ireland Inc. is going to do absolutely nothing to make Ireland less attractive to large multi-nationals of which Ryanair now is one.
The labour laws which Ryanair exploit are of benefit to other multi-nationals.

If Ireland did attempt this then you would find Ryanair and others moving the staff virtually to another more "benign" jurisdiction in the E.U. and there would be the best part of a dozen Countries lining up for the honour of hosting Ryanair and these other multi-nationals.

That might be the case if it wasn't for some specific EU directives related to labour law that Ireland is not yet compliant with. The very clear impression given was that the issues of bogus self employment are being looked at over a wider arena than just here in Ireland.

For all sorts of reasons, the whole subject of multi nationals and employee protection is more on the radar now than it has been for some considerable time, probably because there have been increasing abuses by companies of all sizes, not just multinationals.

It may well then be the case that such changes across the EU will make Europe less competitive with other parts of the world, there's nothing new there unfortunately, but there has to be a balance in all of this, and for sure, there have been very significant abuses here in Ireland that do need to be addressed, there are supposedly nearly half a million people in Ireland that are self employed, which is out of balance with the expected split between employed and self employed.

I trust politicians as far as I can throw them with one hand tied, but there does appear to be a growing awareness that they cannot just sit back and ignore the very real social issues that things like zero hours contracts are causing. As to if their solutions are the right solutions, the jury is out on that, but the discussion about that really is not one for this thread.

737max · 14-11-2017 10:51am

Yeah, if they won't collect explicit amounts of tax that the E.U. tell them they must collect then what chance do you think they will not work around this issue to facilitate multi-nationals.

Fred Swanson · 14-11-2017 11:46am

This post has been deleted.

donkey balls · 15-11-2017 12:03am

One of the lads was telling me that there was a wings ceremony the other day, And that the cadets be lucky to start their line training anytime soon due to the shortage of LTC.
As for FR and the contracts for flight crews how does that hold up against EI & EZY along with Norwegian? I remember hearing that FR only had a handful of ground staff employed and the rest via agencies(zero hour contracts)
One thing that I always found strange is FR employees working in their home countries base yet on Irish contracts, That be like Apple or any of the pharma companies that have operations here giving Irish employees US contracts etc.

...And Justice · 15-11-2017 8:23pm

I'm torn here, I want to book a flight to the canary islands in January. EI are ridiculous prices, but Ryanair are reasonable, but I'm afraid of the flight being cancelled last minute. Pain in the hole.

JCX BXC · 15-11-2017 8:27pm

...And Justice wrote: »

I'm torn here, I want to book a flight to the canary islands in January. EI are ridiculous prices, but Ryanair are reasonable, but I'm afraid of the flight being cancelled last minute. Pain in the hole.

Honestly I cant see why one wouldn't book Ryanair, there was a period of 2 weeks where flights were cancelled with less than 2 weeks notice. The amount of flights cancelled was around 2%.

You've a much higher chance of your flight being cancelled due to a technical issue, air traffic control strikes or weather!

...And Justice · 15-11-2017 8:32pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

Honestly I cant see why one wouldn't book Ryanair, there was a period of 2 weeks where flights were cancelled with less than 2 weeks notice. The amount of flights cancelled was around 2%.

You've a much higher chance of your flight being cancelled due to a technical issue, air traffic control strikes or weather!

I'm almost there, I think I'll wait 1 more week for price drops, if they don't happen Ryanair it is.

Comhrá · 16-11-2017 11:03am

"Jet Pilot Might Not Seem Like a ‘Gig,’ but at Ryanair, It Is"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/16/business/ryanair-pilots.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

munchkin_utd · 16-11-2017 1:44pm

JCX BXC wrote: »

Honestly I cant see why one wouldn't book Ryanair, there was a period of 2 weeks where flights were cancelled with less than 2 weeks notice. The amount of flights cancelled was around 2%.

You've a much higher chance of your flight being cancelled due to a technical issue, air traffic control strikes or weather!

of if flying with KLM, being bumped off the plane because they have chronically overbooked your flight , which isnt a problem you'd associate with Ryanair.

Muahahaha · 16-11-2017 2:58pm

Ryanair taking a high court action against Independent News & Media and one of their business journalists now for his reporting on the staff shortages. OLeary suing OBrien, this should be interesting.

Fred Swanson · 16-11-2017 3:05pm

This post has been deleted.

...And Justice · 16-11-2017 9:33pm

Got my flights on Ryanair, dropped another €100 today, aer lingus still €1000 dearer with a 25% of the plane filled.

vectorvictor · 19-11-2017 10:13pm

I notice Ryanair still pushing the "we've hired 1000 new pilots this year" message. Am I the only one that doesn't see this as a great selling point? 1000 newbies flying around Europe expedited through training to replace the pissed off ones doesn't fill me with confidence.

Not doubting all standards met but the hands on line flying experience gap must me huge. Many of the cadets in the photos look as likely to be posing with their leaving certificate.

Tenger · 19-11-2017 10:28pm

Well flying for Ryanair is a great way to build up your experience very quickly.

pepe the prawn · 20-11-2017 12:41am

vectorvictor wrote: »

......newbies flying around Europe expedited through training....

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

JCX BXC · 20-11-2017 12:49am

vectorvictor wrote: »

I notice Ryanair still pushing the "we've hired 1000 new pilots this year" message. Am I the only one that doesn't see this as a great selling point? 1000 newbies flying around Europe expedited through training to replace the pissed off ones doesn't fill me with confidence.

Not doubting all standards met but the hands on line flying experience gap must me huge. Many of the cadets in the photos look as likely to be posing with their leaving certificate.

I very much doubt the vast majority of people (of whom this is aimed at) would even consider that! Many of the travelling public don't know much about aviation whatsoever. Other than a plane flies, an airline owns the plane and air traffic control tell clears you to take off or land.

vectorvictor · 20-11-2017 1:10am

pepe the prawn wrote: »

How did you arrive at this conclusion?

Newbies by the photos - the last thing they were possibly old enough to fly could have been a kite and expedited from many comments on pprune about "changes" to base training.

Like I said not querying that everything isn't as it should be - my query was centered on is the statement of so many new pilots in a short space of time considered positive. My mind read the announcement as a negative.

They also left out that while 1000 new pilots joined, 901 left with another couple of hundred working notice - source Balpa

CoisFharraige · 20-11-2017 9:16am

JCX BXC wrote: »

Many of the travelling public don't know much about aviation whatsoever… and air traffic control tell clears you to take off or land.

I thought they were the ones with the sticks?

NIMAN · 20-11-2017 9:19am

I'm currently thinking of booking our flights for July 2018 very soon, and still slightly concerned about using Ryanair.

Do we think it will all be in the past come summer next year?

Bob24 · 20-11-2017 10:35am

NIMAN wrote: »

I'm currently thinking of booking our flights for July 2018 very soon, and still slightly concerned about using Ryanair.

Do we think it will all be in the past come summer next year?

No one can tell. Summer service will be their next test as traffic will increase again (while it is reduced in the winter), and they will have had to sort their pilot numbers by then. Of course they will aim at doing that as it is in their interest, but will they manage is difficult to answer.

Do they offer significant savings to book so early for flights during a busy period anyway?

Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

Comments