Aston Villa Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14

COYVB · 16-09-2013 1:21pm

Typically any big, well built guy in any sport is referred to as a beast. Their colour doesn't come into it

JPA · 16-09-2013 1:23pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

I take your word that you've heard Healy being referred to as a beast, but would it be more descriptive rather than categorising? I.e., people saying he is a beast, rather than calling him beast, or the beast. I think there's subtle but very important difference.

Of all the units that exist in sport, the nickname "beast" seems to be reserved for black people. That's just my impression, anyway.

I'm certainly not comfortable using it, what with the connotations associated with the word. Particularly when you look at South Africa, there's something very off-putting about a crowd of largely white middleclass spectators all roaring "BEAST" when one of the few black players get the ball. I'd hate for something similar to be subconsciously underscoring the word's usage for Benteke.

You are doing that terrible thing of getting offended on behalf of somebody else.

shoutman · 16-09-2013 1:36pm

JPA wrote: »

You are doing that terrible thing of getting offended on behalf of somebody else.

Agreed, Neil you are really reading far too much into it.

You have some weird hybrid of catholic/white-mans guilt.

listermint · 16-09-2013 3:37pm

shoutman wrote: »

Agreed, Neil you are really reading far too much into it.

You have some weird hybrid of catholic/white-mans guilt.

I wouldnt describe myself as catholic or guilty for being white. Couldnt care less.

But i do find the term to be a bit ... Why not describe his football rather than looking at it from entirely aesthetic viewpoint

astonaidan · 16-09-2013 3:37pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Just to get a tiny bit Guardian for a moment, am I the only one a little bit uncomfortable labelling Benteke, "beast", or "the beast", or anything of that nature?

Another example I can think of is Tendai Mtawarira, a black South African rugby player. Every time he gets the ball, the crowd chant, "beeeeast".

I've heard a few people also say it about Okore, that if he gets to grips with the league he could soon become "a beast".

I dunno. There's just something not quite right with a group of largely white people, in an area of strong racial tension (South Africa, working class Britain) applying the word "beast" to what appears to be exclusively black players.

Chabal was regularly called The Beast, his nickname was the Caveman, think your reading into this abit too much

shoutman · 16-09-2013 4:14pm

listermint wrote: »

I wouldnt describe myself as catholic or guilty for being white. Couldnt care less.

But i do find the term to be a bit ... Why not describe his football rather than looking at it from entirely aesthetic viewpoint

Haha now you sound like the footballing version of a feminist - stop thinking of them like pieces of meat, they have personalities too

I guess it goes to show you how little we have to talk about that the most debate in a while on this thread has been over something so trivial.

Speaking of debate, whatever happened to Helix?

CSF · 16-09-2013 4:27pm

shoutman wrote: »

Haha now you sound like the footballing version of a feminist - stop thinking of them like pieces of meat, they have personalities too

I guess it goes to show you how little we have to talk about that the most debate in a while on this thread has been over something so trivial.

Speaking of debate, whatever happened to Helix?

COYVB.

Neil3030 · 16-09-2013 4:42pm

Well I had always operated under the impression that Villa fans were cut from higher quality stuff than your average football fan, thus to allow spirited debate on slightly more high-brow topics....

If I could I'd give you a slap!

Notwithstanding....

JPA · 16-09-2013 4:46pm

Ronaldo is probably the best example of a beast in footballing terms, then you have someone like Falcao or Aguero or Tevez . Strong, fast, awesome. Shearer if he was still playing would definitely be a beast.

In many cases black players are big and strong and therefore the term beast fits well.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beast

Dead wrong on this one Neil, strange thought process actually.

COYVB · 16-09-2013 4:54pm

listermint wrote: »

I wouldnt describe myself as catholic or guilty for being white. Couldnt care less.

But i do find the term to be a bit ... Why not describe his football rather than looking at it from entirely aesthetic viewpoint

For Benteke I think it also describes his football, in that he's a beast and there's no stopping him from scoring

Neil3030 · 16-09-2013 5:01pm

JPA wrote: »

Ronaldo is probably the best example of a beast in footballing terms, then you have someone like Falcao or Aguero or Tevez . Strong, fast, awesome. Shearer if he was still playing would definitely be a beast.

In many cases black players are big and strong and therefore the term beast fits well.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=beast

Dead wrong on this one Neil, strange thought process actually.

You may have actually strengthened my point here. You cite several players who fit a racially neutral definition of "beast", (big, athletic, fast, strong, etc) yet how often are these players actually called referred to as "the beast", "our beast", etc, by fans?

Contrast that to Lukaku and Benteke, just two current examples, or Okore as a possible future contender.

JPA · 16-09-2013 5:04pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

You may have actually strengthened my point here. You cite several players who fit a racially neutral definition of "beast", (big, athletic, fast, strong, etc) yet how often are these players actually called referred to as "the beast", "our beast", etc, by fans?

Contrast that to Lukaku and Benteke, just two current examples, or Okore as a possible future contender.

Ya Ronaldo is frequently called a beast or a machine, ie not human.

Neil3030 · 16-09-2013 5:07pm

JPA wrote: »

Ya Ronaldo is frequently called a beast or a machine, ie not human.

Fair enough, but is that his nickname? If you told a Madrid fan that "the beast scored a goal last night", would they instantly think of Ronaldo?

JPA · 16-09-2013 5:10pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Fair enough, but is that his nickname? If you told a Madrid fan that "the beast scored a goal last night", would they instantly think of Ronaldo?

I don't hear many calling Benteke, "the beast", more like A beast.
Calling someone a beast is a new and modern term as shown by my link above . I think it probably comes from gaming where such things as beast mode exist.

Neil3030 · 16-09-2013 5:18pm

JPA wrote: »

I don't hear many calling Benteke, "the beast", more like A beast.
Calling someone a beast is a new and modern term as shown by my link above . I think it probably comes from gaming where such things as beast mode exist.

Yeah, like I said above, calling someone "a beast" is different, and it's fair enough provided it's evenly split along all racial divides. But I do hear Benteke frequently referred to as "our beast" or "the beast", especially on VT, and it gives me the same reservations as when I hear large crowds of Afrikaners roaring "BEEEEAST" at Mtawarira. Sure, to most it's a term of affection, but there's enough history/context there just to make you think twice about whether it's appropriate.

It'd be interesting to take a random mix of fans from different clubs, tell them that "the beast" is your favourite player on their team, and see who they come up with.

COYVB · 16-09-2013 5:43pm

would you feel the same about players being called a monster neil?

Neil3030 · 16-09-2013 5:47pm

COYVB wrote: »

would you feel the same about players being called a monster neil?

No. Monster, animal, machine, etc. all come with less baggage, imo.

shoutman · 16-09-2013 5:53pm

Our would be monster is confirmed to have ruptered his ACL and is out for 9 months - what is he going to be called now?

Pretty awful news as he was really starting to look good.

Official site wrote:

Following clinical examination and the results of an MRI scan, the Club can confirm that Jores Okore sustained a ruptured anterior cruciate ligament injury in his right knee in the game against Newcastle on Saturday.

Jores will undergo surgery in due course and he could be sidelined for a period of up to nine months.

JPA · 16-09-2013 6:03pm

shoutman wrote: »

Our would be monster is confirmed to have ruptered his ACL and is out for 9 months - what is he going to be called now?

Pretty awful news as he was really starting to look good.

Fuccckkkk.

Neil3030 · 16-09-2013 6:41pm

****....

Corholio · 16-09-2013 6:56pm

Pretty disastrous news if I'm honest. Back to Clark, Baker and Vlaar. :eek:

Benteke will need to score at least 2 every game now to win or draw.

Eathrin · 16-09-2013 7:00pm

Most promising signing out for the season

Doodee · 16-09-2013 7:09pm

Sucks

Never good to see this happen to a young lad either.

astonaidan · 16-09-2013 9:33pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

Yeah, like I said above, calling someone "a beast" is different, and it's fair enough provided it's evenly split along all racial divides. But I do hear Benteke frequently referred to as "our beast" or "the beast", especially on VT, and it gives me the same reservations as when I hear large crowds of Afrikaners roaring "BEEEEAST" at Mtawarira. Sure, to most it's a term of affection, but there's enough history/context there just to make you think twice about whether it's appropriate.

It'd be interesting to take a random mix of fans from different clubs, tell them that "the beast" is your favourite player on their team, and see who they come up with.

But Mtawarira is called the beast because well to be honest some of the things he does is super human in strength, If the guy was white im nearly certain his nickname would be the same

Neil3030 · 17-09-2013 8:50am

astonaidan wrote: »

But Mtawarira is called the beast because well to be honest some of the things he does is super human in strength, If the guy was white im nearly certain his nickname would be the same

I would certainly hope that would be the case alright - that if he were an Afrikaner, for example, his nickname would remain the same. But how many units has that country produced? They are known as the most physically intimidating side in world rugby. The style of play of the contemporary New Zealand teams has even evolved to counteract their physicality. They have produced plenty of players far stronger than Mtawarira, and I can't name you one who was nicknamed "beast", and many players around the world are far stronger than him (Andrew Sheridan can bench nearly 50kg more than him, for example) and again, I can't name any with that nickname.

Anyway, look, I'll drop it. Doesn't seem to be the most popular theory in the world. I'll just stick to Bentekkers for the time being

.

Neil3030 · 17-09-2013 10:33am

So is that Delph, Gardner and now Okore who have all banjaxed their ACL at a pretty young age at Villa? :mad:

Corholio · 17-09-2013 2:16pm

Interesting piece by Kendrick this morning, talking to Villa's doctor between late 1970's upto 2004. He said the only cruciate he ever remembers treating was Fashanu's when he got tackled by Giggs.

Wonder if it says a bit about modern technologies in boots, or training surfaces etc.

Saab Ed · 17-09-2013 2:24pm

Corholio wrote: »

Interesting piece by Kendrick this morning, talking to Villa's doctor between late 1970's upto 2004. He said the only cruciate he ever remembers treating was Fashanu's when he got tackled by Giggs.

Wonder if it says a bit about modern technologies in boots, or training surfaces etc.

I had the very same discussion with a friend recently and he made a very obvious point. The modern player, even compared to one 15-20 years ago, is a highly tuned & strung machine. Such are the levels the modern players body is being pushed to, so too is the tolerance when the limit is reached.

astonaidan · 17-09-2013 4:01pm

Neil3030 wrote: »

I would certainly hope that would be the case alright - that if he were an Afrikaner, for example, his nickname would remain the same. But how many units has that country produced? They are known as the most physically intimidating side in world rugby. The style of play of the contemporary New Zealand teams has even evolved to counteract their physicality. They have produced plenty of players far stronger than Mtawarira, and I can't name you one who was nicknamed "beast", and many players around the world are far stronger than him (Andrew Sheridan can bench nearly 50kg more than him, for example) and again, I can't name any with that nickname.

Anyway, look, I'll drop it. Doesn't seem to be the most popular theory in the world. I'll just stick to Bentekkers for the time being .

Ah but if you watched Mtawarira play you would see why the beast nickname fits, its like he goes out of his way to show his strength, youtube some of the lifts he does from kickoff.
Weight doesnt really always mean strength, like our flanker on the local team is a country mile stronger than our front row but would be losing out 5/6 stone in weight on them. Im sure Vickery was heavier than the beast when Lions played them in South Africa, which didnt do him much good.
Ive heard Spies been called a beast plenty of times, wouldnt make much sense to have two guys with the same nickname from same country would it.

Doodee · 18-09-2013 7:13am

Any chance of moving on from the beast conversation onto Villa topics?

So who will deputise in Okores absence? Clark or Baker?

shoutman · 18-09-2013 9:19am

Seems like Baker is Lamberts first choice? I think Clark is solid defensively, hate when he has the ball though as invariably a hoof ball is coming.
Reckon if Okore is out for the season we'd be after someone again in January?

Strengthening the midfield is still key imo, Delph has come on great this year and is playing very well, but we could do with another attack minded midfielder IMO

LeBash · 18-09-2013 10:03am

I doubt we will sign an atrackong midfielder. I reckon Bacuna will be give a year like KEA to fit into the league.

On that note although not fantastic KEA is planets apart from last season. Still think he has a lot of improving if he is to warrent a first team place in any Premier club but nice to see what can happen when given time to adjust.

matrim · 18-09-2013 10:07am

LeBash wrote: »

I doubt we will sign an atrackong midfielder. I reckon Bacuna will be give a year like KEA to fit into the league.

On that note although not fantastic KEA is planets apart from last season. Still think he has a lot of improving if he is to warrent a first team place in any Premier club but nice to see what can happen when given time to adjust.

He was good in the first few games but was very poor on Saturday. Constantly gave the ball away and just seemed to be off the pace

Neil3030 · 18-09-2013 10:24am

The thing I notice about KEA from what I've seen of him, is that he always seems to press, but stands off making a challenge. Now that's all well and good when your primary role is to be hassling more than one player in the same area of the pitch, but if he doesn't at least give the impression that he might follow through with a tackle, guys won't feel hurried in possession. I'd love to see him stick the boot in more frequently, if nothing else just to keep the opposition honest.

Moneymaker · 18-09-2013 10:40am

Sorry to hear Okore is out, it looked pretty innocuous too. He looked like your best defender on Saturday too, real shame.

Neil3030 · 18-09-2013 12:16pm

Moneymaker wrote: »

Sorry to hear Okore is out, it looked pretty innocuous too. He looked like your best defender on Saturday too, real shame.

I've certainly felt a lot more comfortable when he's been on the pitch. Which either says a lot about him, or not much about the rest of the cetnre-halves!

Neil3030 · 21-09-2013 8:26am

3 days and not a peep from anyone. Do I have to call you all racists again to get a bit of action in here? :pac:

LeBash · 21-09-2013 9:32am

Im Florida bound so wont get to catch the match today. Im hoping we scrape a win. Suppose the big question is who wil Pl favour between Clark and Baker?

kilburn · 21-09-2013 11:54am

I think he will go with Clark

JPA · 21-09-2013 11:58am

kilburn wrote: »

I think he will go with Clark

Guzan, Bacuna, Clark, Vlaar, Luna, Delph, El Ahmadi, Tonev, Weimann, Agbonlahor, Benteke.

matrim · 21-09-2013 12:14pm

JPA wrote: »

Guzan, Bacuna, Clark, Vlaar, Luna, Delph, El Ahmadi, Tonev, Weimann, Agbonlahor, Benteke.

Westwood injured?

Frankie Lee · 21-09-2013 12:14pm

Lowton needed to be dropped.

Doyler92 · 21-09-2013 12:27pm

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Lowton needed to be dropped.

Why did Lowton need to be dropped do you know by any chance?

JPA · 21-09-2013 12:30pm

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Lowton needed to be dropped.

I'm sure he's injured.

Frankie Lee · 21-09-2013 12:39pm

Oh right my mistake. His form has not been near the same level as it was last spring.

astonaidan · 21-09-2013 12:44pm

Time for some Benteke magic

matrim · 21-09-2013 12:45pm

Interested to see what Tonev can do on his first start

matrim · 21-09-2013 12:49pm

Bright start. 2 good chances for Wiemann.

Seems to have setup differently than normal. Wiemann looks to be on the left with Gabby through the center

No goal for you. Guzan with a good save from a peno. Clark handball but there was nothing he could do about it

JPA · 21-09-2013 1:09pm

Frankie Lee wrote: »

Oh right my mistake. His form has not been near the same level as it was last spring.

No, just saying he could be injured, not even on bench. Be surprised to see him dropped from the squad.

matrim · 21-09-2013 1:11pm

Benteke looks injured

Aston Villa Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2013/14

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