What do the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness mean?

santana75 · 12-02-2020 8:17pm #1

Matthew 4: 1-11

Jesus is led into the wilderness By the Spiritwhere he fasts for 40 days and then is tempted by Satan.

The first temptation: Satan challenges a starving Jesus to turn stones into loaves of bread.

The second temptation: Satan urges Jesus to test God by throwing himself off the top of the holy temple in Jerusalem.

The third temptation: Satan offers Jesus power, wealth and earthly kingdoms if he would only bow down and worship him instead of God.

I've read this passage many times and each time I feel I get closer to understanding whats really going on here. For me the first temptation is about the flesh and overcoming our own fleshly desires. Jesus after fasting for 40 days, was being encouraged by satan to turn the stones into bread. I did some fasting during the summer and even doing 24 hours is not an easy thing. It made me see how easy it easy to get attached to things like food and sex, and make them an idol, put them ahead of God. So to tell a man to have some bread after 40 days of fasting does not seem, on the surface of things, to be an unreasonable request. But the fact that satan is the one urging Jesus to do this means it shouldnt be done, no matter how reasonable it seems. And I think thats what this means for us aswell. "The world" will tell us that its ok to do pretty much anything, and a lot of it may seem reasonable, but we know in our hearts as christians, that its not ok. Or is this about obedience to God? The spirit led Jesus into the wilderness, so he was being told what to do by the spirit but satan was trying to get him to go away from what the spirit wanted.

The second temptation for me is about trusting God and not doubting him to the point where you test him. Thats what the Israelites did constantly in the wilderness. Even though they had witnessed his miracles first hand, they soon forgot and tested him by complaining and then plotting rebellions. In the end they didnt even make it into the promised land because of their doubt and lack of trust in God

The third temptation I believe, is about pursuing worldly wealth, fame and power over pursuing God. I've often heard the expression to make a deal with the devil, as if satan himself appears with a contract and you sign on the dotted line. I think it happens covertly and incrementally over time. Bit by bit, people forget about God or they never knew him at all, and instead chase after the things of the world. In short, its about Idolatry.

Anyway this is what I think those temptations are about. But this is my interpretation. I'd love to hear what everyone else believes about this passage from the scriptures.

antiskeptic · 13-02-2020 6:56am

santana75 wrote: »

Matthew 4: 1-11

Jesus is led into the wilderness By the Spiritwhere he fasts for 40 days and then is tempted by Satan.

The first temptation: Satan challenges a starving Jesus to turn stones into loaves of bread.

The second temptation: Satan urges Jesus to test God by throwing himself off the top of the holy temple in Jerusalem.

The third temptation: Satan offers Jesus power, wealth and earthly kingdoms if he would only bow down and worship him instead of God.

I've read this passage many times and each time I feel I get closer to understanding whats really going on here. For me the first temptation is about the flesh and overcoming our own fleshly desires. Jesus after fasting for 40 days, was being encouraged by satan to turn the stones into bread. I did some fasting during the summer and even doing 24 hours is not an easy thing. It made me see how easy it easy to get attached to things like food and sex, and make them an idol, put them ahead of God. So to tell a man to have some bread after 40 days of fasting does not seem, on the surface of things, to be an unreasonable request. But the fact that satan is the one urging Jesus to do this means it shouldnt be done, no matter how reasonable it seems. And I think thats what this means for us aswell. "The world" will tell us that its ok to do pretty much anything, and a lot of it may seem reasonable, but we know in our hearts as christians, that its not ok. Or is this about obedience to God? The spirit led Jesus into the wilderness, so he was being told what to do by the spirit but satan was trying to get him to go away from what the spirit wanted.

The second temptation for me is about trusting God and not doubting him to the point where you test him. Thats what the Israelites did constantly in the wilderness. Even though they had witnessed his miracles first hand, they soon forgot and tested him by complaining and then plotting rebellions. In the end they didnt even make it into the promised land because of their doubt and lack of trust in God

The third temptation I believe, is about pursuing worldly wealth, fame and power over pursuing God. I've often heard the expression to make a deal with the devil, as if satan himself appears with a contract and you sign on the dotted line. I think it happens covertly and incrementally over time. Bit by bit, people forget about God or they never knew him at all, and instead chase after the things of the world. In short, its about Idolatry.

Anyway this is what I think those temptations are about. But this is my interpretation. I'd love to hear what everyone else believes about this passage from the scriptures.

Great post.

Given its for our instruction, I'd say it's the whole gig we live .. in a nutshell.

1st. The flesh and the way it can dominate.

2nd. Doubting the love of God. Doubt because when we doubt we test. This mutation in Adam has evolved unto doubting that God exists. A kind of survival of the diabolically fit. I say doubt because people do know God existd. Its vague, its uneasy. But it's there

3rd. A repeat of the original sin offering. The opportunity for self sufficiency, self direction and self exhaltation - which places our interests supreme. In order for this to be, others interests have to be subject and second to our own. Hence power - the ability to have anything we want no matter what the cost to anyone else. Because we succumb (by virtue of our sin nature) to the first two, our wielding of power will be corrupt, evil, selfish, greedy, lustful, lazy etc.

The kindgom of God is a flat hierarchy. All equal children in the household of God.

The alternative is a vertical hierarchy (for people will compete for a place at your court) with all that that entails.The cost is switching our fathers, from God to the father of lies.

And he has lied - we see the effect of his 3 promises all around us. It doesn't do what it says on the tin.

santana75 · 13-02-2020 7:01pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

3rd. A repeat of the original sin offering. The opportunity for self sufficiency, self direction and self exhaltation - which places our interests supreme. In order for this to be, others interests have to be subject and second to our own. Hence power - the ability to have anything we want no matter what the cost to anyone else. Because we succumb (by virtue of our sin nature) to the first two, our wielding of power will be corrupt, evil, selfish, greedy, lustful, lazy etc.

I didnt actually kop that, but I can see it now. Jesus was actually undoing all the bad work Adam & Eve had done in the garden of eden. Satan came to him, just like he came to Adam & Eve, only this time I would say the circumstances where a little rougher for Jesus. He'd been fasting for 40 days in the wilderness, where as Adam & Eve where literally in the greatest paradise in the history of the world, plus God himself was in their presence. Yet even with all of that in their favor, they still gave in to what satan was offering. Whereas Jesus, starving and in a desolate place, didnt. Theres so much going in with this piece of scripture. You can see it play itself out right in front of your eyes. How many times has there been a story of some celebrity, who has wealth, fame, success and every material thing anyone could ever want, yet they're miserable and empty, some take their own lives. If there was ever proof that satan's promises end in despair and death, this is it. The whole world dreams of being rich and famous, and satan knows this, so he lures them away from God and into his trap.
Jesus said "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all things shall be added onto you". As far as I can see to seek the kingdom of God means to turn from satan's promises of material wealth. But its like turning from what you can see to what you cant. You can see material wealth and the things of the world, whereas the kingdom of heaven cant be seen. Its faith really. The Bible says Its impossible to please God without faith. To turn away from the things of this world is the ultimate act of faith.

Until I started to read the Bible I didnt even know I was being tempted by satan. Now Im well aware of whats going on, but for people who dont believe, who dont read the Bible.......I dont know if they even have a chance. I mean its like being in a battle with an enemy but you dont ever realise it.

antiskeptic · 13-02-2020 9:38pm

santana75 wrote: »

I didnt actually kop that, but I can see it now. Jesus was actually undoing all the bad work Adam & Eve had done in the garden of eden. Satan came to him, just like he came to Adam & Eve, only this time I would say the circumstances where a little rougher for Jesus. He'd been fasting for 40 days in the wilderness, where as Adam & Eve where literally in the greatest paradise in the history of the world, plus God himself was in their presence. Yet even with all of that in their favor, they still gave in to what satan was offering. Whereas Jesus, starving and in a desolate place, didnt. Theres so much going in with this piece of scripture. You can see it play itself out right in front of your eyes. How many times has there been a story of some celebrity, who has wealth, fame, success and every material thing anyone could ever want, yet they're miserable and empty, some take their own lives. If there was ever proof that satan's promises end in despair and death, this is it. The whole world dreams of being rich and famous, and satan knows this, so he lures them away from God and into his trap.
Jesus said "But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness and all things shall be added onto you". As far as I can see to seek the kingdom of God means to turn from satan's promises of material wealth. But its like turning from what you can see to what you cant. You can see material wealth and the things of the world, whereas the kingdom of heaven cant be seen. Its faith really. The Bible says Its impossible to please God without faith. To turn away from the things of this world is the ultimate act of faith.

Until I started to read the Bible I didnt even know I was being tempted by satan. Now Im well aware of whats going on, but for people who dont believe, who dont read the Bible.......I dont know if they even have a chance. I mean its like being in a battle with an enemy but you dont ever realise it.

A view I have expressed elsewhere: the very fact of peoples unawareness means they swallow the lure.

Which inevitably brings trouble ... better said, pain. But they are not so unaware as to be ignorant of the fact that there is something up with who they are and what they do. Even if they don't recognise that the standard they fall short of is God.

That awareness brings discomfort too, the discomfort of knowing you are not quite right. Not anywhere near as right and sorted as you try to let on to everyone else.

There is nothing as effective as pain to drive one to seek a Remedy. Thus, God using the power of Satan against Satan in an attempt at salvation. Turning bad into good.

Every cloud...

hinault · 14-02-2020 12:51am

Good answers thus far.

I'd like to add that this gospel passage also clearly reasserts that God incarnate, Jesus Christ, was true God and true Man.
Therefore Jesus experienced the all too human weakness called temptation, as told in that gospel passage.

In that context Jesus therefore fully shared our humanity and feels our humanity and our susceptibility to temptation/weakness.
Of course, His other "nature" God ensured that this temptation could not be overcome and He resisted fully.

This gospel passage also tells me just how arrogant and how disingenuous Satan is.
Why?

Because the memory of his downfall from Heaven is burnt forever on his memory and into his psyche, yet he has the overweening pride knowing that he can't win to continue to try to tempt Him who will defeat him every single time throughout all eternity.

antiskeptic · 14-02-2020 9:56am

hinault wrote: »

Good answers thus far.

I'd like to add that this gospel passage also clearly reasserts that God incarnate, Jesus Christ, was true God and true Man.
Therefore Jesus experienced the all too human weakness called temptation, as told in that gospel passage.

In that context Jesus therefore fully shared our humanity and feels our humanity and our susceptibility to temptation/weakness.
Of course, His other "nature" God ensured that this temptation could not be overcome and He resisted fully.

This gospel passage also tells me just how arrogant and how disingenuous Satan is.
Why?

Because the memory of his downfall from Heaven is burnt forever on his memory and into his psyche, yet he has the overweening pride knowing that he can't win to continue to try to tempt Him who will defeat him every single time throughout all eternity.

A conundrum springs to mind:

Jesus was tempted just as we are .. or so the story goes. But the mechanism of our temptation is our sin (or sin nature). Our sin nature is as iron to Satan's magnet. His realm exerts a force on us, drawing us towards sin, as a magnet draws iron.

What was in Jesus that could be drawn by Satan? For he was without sin. He was made of aluminium .. not iron.

It's not enough to say he was fully human, since that doesn't explain the mechanism.

The same conundrum applies to Adam. There too, the question arises as to the mechanism whereby he could be drawn. He thought independence from God an attractive thing to obtain. But why would he think that unless there was some felt lack in the position he occupied?

hinault · 14-02-2020 11:52am

antiskeptic wrote: »

A conundrum springs to mind:

Jesus was tempted just as we are .. or so the story goes. But the mechanism of our temptation is our sin (or sin nature). Our sin nature is as iron to Satan's magnet. His realm exerts a force on us, drawing us towards sin, as a magnet draws iron.

What was in Jesus that could be drawn by Satan? For he was without sin. He was made of aluminium .. not iron.

It's not enough to say he was fully human, since that doesn't explain the mechanism.

The same conundrum applies to Adam. There too, the question arises as to the mechanism whereby he could be drawn. He thought independence from God an attractive thing to obtain. But why would he think that unless there was some felt lack in the position he occupied?

It is a conundrum for sure.

The Church teaching is that God incarnate Jesus Christ on Earth was true God and true Man.
The term to describe this is called Hypostatic State.

I

antiskeptic · 14-02-2020 6:43pm

hinault wrote: »

It is a conundrum for sure.

The Church teaching is that God incarnate Jesus Christ on Earth was true God and true Man.
The term to describe this is called Hypostatic State.

I

Which, of course, does nothing to resolve the conundrum.

hinault · 14-02-2020 7:25pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

Which, of course, does nothing to resolve the conundrum.

Reply 5 provides the answer to your "conundrum"

Satan knowing full well that he could not tempt Jesus to sin, did not waste an opportunity to try to tempt Jesus. As I explained to you in answer 5, that is the measure of Satan's pride. His pride is infinite.

The mechanism you asked about in reply 6 is answered in reply 7.
Hypostatic state explains how Jesus experienced temptation like every other human being, and the hypostatic state explains how Jesus could never ever succumb to temptation to sin.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains more eloquently the concept of the hypostatic state.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm

santana75 · 15-02-2020 12:40am

antiskeptic wrote: »

A conundrum springs to mind:

Jesus was tempted just as we are .. or so the story goes. But the mechanism of our temptation is our sin (or sin nature). Our sin nature is as iron to Satan's magnet. His realm exerts a force on us, drawing us towards sin, as a magnet draws iron.

What was in Jesus that could be drawn by Satan? For he was without sin. He was made of aluminium .. not iron.

It's not enough to say he was fully human, since that doesn't explain the mechanism.

The same conundrum applies to Adam. There too, the question arises as to the mechanism whereby he could be drawn. He thought independence from God an attractive thing to obtain. But why would he think that unless there was some felt lack in the position he occupied?

I think satan tempts all, no matter who they are. I have a theory, that God actually uses satan as a means to test the hearts of men. God allows satan to roam the earth when he could just throw him into the lake of fire. I think God wants people with pure hearts, who's intentions are true and honorable. He wants to weed out those who are just "using him" to get what they want. It's like some people you meet in life who are only interested in what they can get from you. They're not actually interested In you as a person, only what you can give them. And as soon as they no longer can get something from you they're gone. I think God destests people like this. People who dont actually love him but people who will only try to satisfy their own selfish desires at his expense. Paul said "Dont you know that one day you believers will judge the whole earth". That's literally The greatest job in the history of the world. But in order to be a fair and honorable judge God has to test us and what better way to test us by using our greatest enemy who tempts us with the things of the world. Most people fail this test, they place the things of the world ahead of God. They're not willing to pick up their cross daily, deny themselves and follow Jesus. Sin is in us and satan knows this and thats why he is the ultimate test for people who will judge the whole earth. But sins power was broken when Jesus gave his life for us. Even though sin still acts in our lives it's a dead entity that is being banished day by day. And satan is always trying to lure us back in with those 3 big temptations he tested Jesus with.

antiskeptic · 15-02-2020 1:58pm

hinault wrote: »

Reply 5 provides the answer to your "conundrum"

Satan knowing full well that he could not tempt Jesus to sin, did not waste an opportunity to try to tempt Jesus. As I explained to you in answer 5, that is the measure of Satan's pride. His pride is infinite.

You seem to use contradictory language.There was no opportunity to tempt Jesus if Jesus was untemptable. Having an opportunity necessitates the opportunity, does it not.

So Jesus wasn't tempted. There was no struggle for him. Satan might as well have thrown ball bearings at an ocean liner in the attempt to sink it.

Would you say being given a handful of ball bearings an opportunity to sink a passing ocean liner?

The mechanism you asked about in reply 6 is answered in reply 7.
Hypostatic state explains how Jesus experienced temptation like every other human being, and the hypostatic state explains how Jesus could never ever succumb to temptation to sin.

Hypostatic state merely seems to assume its conclusions. That Jesus being fully man means he was tempted as we are.

But that's not an explanation of HOW he was tempted just as we arr. How do you tempt the untemptable? If you simply hold that useless ball bearing throwing represents temptation then fine. But to be tempted as we are means the person subject to the temptation suffers and struggles.

Whereas Jesus couldn't have suffered and struggled - failing a route for the ball bearings to penetrate the iron plate surface. And there appears to be no route.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains more eloquently the concept of the hypostatic state.

https://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm

I'd prefer it in your own words if possible?

hinault · 15-02-2020 4:09pm

You're doubting that Jesus was fully human.

Why do you refuse to read the Catechism (link)?

antiskeptic · 16-02-2020 10:14am

hinault wrote: »

You're doubting that Jesus was fully human.

To be fully human is to be a sinner, to be born with a nature that is bent towards sin. If you say 'fully human' you cannot mean human with a bit (the sin nature) removed. An Audi TT with the engine removed cannot be described as fully Audi TT

Or else you say that to be fully human is to be as God originally made us (e.g. Adam) and that Jesus took that sinless form. In that case, all of us post-fall are less than fully human. Jesus not like us.

Why do you refuse to read the Catechism (link)?

Because it's a big chunk of text and I'm looking for something that addresses the specific problem. How is someone without sin and without a nature bent towards and loving of sin, tempted by satan?

By all means quote the specific bit which addresses this problem if it is there.

hinault · 16-02-2020 10:44am

You don't believe the incarnation.
Your disbelief goes with your own brand.

The link supplied to you explaining the Hypostatic state isn't a long read.

antiskeptic · 16-02-2020 10:58am

hinault wrote: »

You don't believe the incarnation.
Your disbelief goes with your own brand.

I asked a simple, rather obvious question. You either have a specific way of dealing with it or you don't. I don't myself at this moment, because the question only occurred to me.

The link supplied to you explaining the Hypostatic state isn't a long read.

There's nothing there to resolve the conundrum

482 Christ, being true God and true man, has a human intellect and will, perfectly attuned and subject to his divine intellect and divine will, which he has in common with the Father and the Holy Spirit.

A human will is sin bent. Christ's wasn't.

How does someone without a sin-enticeable will, experience the force of sin temptation?

Simple question. No amount of saying 'fully human' solves the problem.

hinault · 16-02-2020 11:08am

You"re obstinate in your refusal to believe in the incarnation.

That's your right to refuse of course. But your refusal puts you in a very precarious situation, when you deny such teachings.

theological · 16-02-2020 11:48am

antiskeptic wrote: »

To be fully human is to be a sinner, to be born with a nature that is bent towards sin. If you say 'fully human' you cannot mean human with a bit (the sin nature) removed. An Audi TT with the engine removed cannot be described as fully Audi TT

Or is it the combination of being fully human and fully God that make Jesus able to resist sin despite being tempted?

As you say Jesus is the second Adam who resisted the devil's tempting unlike the first.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Or else you say that to be fully human is to be as God originally made us (e.g. Adam) and that Jesus took that sinless form. In that case, all of us post-fall are less than fully human. Jesus not like us.

I think it is more nuanced. I'm finding more and more that the Bible rarely gives an explicit yes or no answer. Jesus is like us, and Jesus is not like us at the same time.

As the Bible says:

Hebrews 4:14-16 wrote:

Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

ChrisJ84 · 17-02-2020 11:28am

antiskeptic wrote: »

To be fully human is to be a sinner, to be born with a nature that is bent towards sin. If you say 'fully human' you cannot mean human with a bit (the sin nature) removed. An Audi TT with the engine removed cannot be described as fully Audi TT

I think this is where you are going wrong; where do you get this idea from? If you are going to develop a biblical anthropology, then the key passage is Genesis 1:26-26, as it describes what a person is. Adam was fully human, we are fully human, and Jesus is fully human. Just because we are all fully human doesn't we are exactly alike in every way. A key difference is that Adam fell, we are fallen, and Jesus did not.

And I don't understand why you are tying yourself up in such knots about Jesus being fully God and fully human?

antiskeptic · 17-02-2020 7:11pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

I think this is where you are going wrong; where do you get this idea from? If you are going to develop a biblical anthropology, then the key passage is Genesis 1:26-26, as it describes what a person is. Adam was fully human, we are fully human, and Jesus is fully human. Just because we are all fully human doesn't we are exactly alike in every way. A key difference is that Adam fell, we are fallen, and Jesus did not.

I covered this option earlier..

antiskeptic wrote:

Or else you say that to be fully human is to be as God originally made us (e.g. Adam) and that Jesus took that sinless form. In that case, all of us post-fall are less than fully human. Jesus is not like us.

..not like us in a pretty significant way. He had no sin nature. Which I accept he hadn't

Hence my query: what in Jesus could experience the sin-based temptations of Satan (such as being attracted to power and wealth, getting all we like). Satan would having been peeing against the wind. How can we say he was tempted if there was no sin nature present in him for the temptation to stimulate?

And I don't understand why you are tying yourself up in such knots about Jesus being fully God and fully human?

The only knot I am concerned with is the one outlined above

antiskeptic · 17-02-2020 7:14pm

theological wrote: »

Or is it the combination of being fully human and fully God that make Jesus able to resist sin despite being tempted?

And I'm asking how sin can tempt someone who has no sin in them. Same question regarding Adam. How can sin attract someone who has no sin within for its pulling power to latch onto.

antiskeptic · 17-02-2020 7:20pm

hinault wrote: »

You"re obstinate in your refusal to believe in the incarnation.

Where have I denied the incarnation? I have queried a link of yours which didn't say anything about the specific question.

That's your right to refuse of course. But your refusal puts you in a very precarious situation, when you deny such teachings.

.. since I am not denying it but am enquiring into it's workings all is cushty!

Are you not allowed to enquire into the workings of things on your side of the pond?

theological · 17-02-2020 8:11pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

And I'm asking how sin can tempt someone who has no sin in them. Same question regarding Adam. How can sin attract someone who has no sin within for its pulling power to latch onto.

My answer would be relatively simple in that I rely on Scripture to see that Jesus was indeed tempted and indeed human. I can also rely on Scripture to see that He is also God.

Is Scripture isn't sufficient to satisfy you what would be?

I'm genuinely interested because for me if I am to disregard Scripture and try look for something else then what reliable source do we have for looking into these matters?

ChrisJ84 · 17-02-2020 9:28pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

..not like us in a pretty significant way. He had no sin nature. Which I accept he hadn't

No where in scripture is it stated or implied that being sinful makes us less human, so I simply don't see it as a problem.

antiskeptic wrote: »

Hence my query: what in Jesus could experience the sin-based temptations of Satan (such as being attracted to power and wealth, getting all we like). Satan would having been peeing against the wind. How can we say he was tempted if there was no sin nature present in him for the temptation to stimulate?

"We" aren't saying that he was tempted, the Bible does. Jesus experienced these temptations in his humanity, just as Adam did. Adam didn't have a sin nature when he was tempted either. The difference is that he fell where Jesus resisted.

antiskeptic wrote: »

The only knot I am concerned with is the one outlined above

I don't think there is a knot. The testimony of scripture is clear, and the witness of the church (Roman, Orthodox and Protestant) has been consistent, as seen in the ecumenical creeds.

Jesus is fully and completely human, and fully and completely divine. These two natures are distinct, and they are completely united in one person. Clearly there is a lot more that can be said, but none of it changes the truth of anything in those last two sentences.

Is there anything in this post you disagree with? If so, why?

antiskeptic · 17-02-2020 9:36pm

theological wrote: »

My answer would be relatively simple in that I rely on Scripture to see that Jesus was indeed tempted and indeed human. I can also rely on Scripture to see that He is also God.

Is Scripture isn't sufficient to satisfy you what would be?

I'm genuinely interested because for me if I am to disregard Scripture and try look for something else then what reliable source do we have for looking into these matters?

"Scripture satisfying" leads to RC's "on this rock", Calvinism's "God choses man for reasons unknown" and Arminianisn's "man choses God despite not a single NT verse indicating man can chose for God".

You might agree that 'scripture satisfying' might say more about a persons threshold for satisfaction than it does about scripture's contents. Given you hold at least two of the above views unsatisfying yourself

Scripture says Jesus was tempted. That means he was tempted. I'm asking how? You don't seem interested in how.

Ask no questions get no lies, when applied to the Bible means you get no truth.

antiskeptic · 17-02-2020 9:40pm

ChrisJ84 wrote: »

No where in scripture is it stated or implied that being sinful makes us less human, so I simply don't see it as a problem.

"We" aren't saying that he was tempted, the Bible does. Jesus experienced these temptations in his humanity, just as Adam did. Adam didn't have a sin nature when he was tempted either. The difference is that he fell where Jesus resisted.

I don't think there is a knot. The testimony of scripture is clear, and the witness of the church (Roman, Orthodox and Protestant) has been consistent, as seen in the ecumenical creeds.

Jesus is fully and completely human, and fully and completely divine. These two natures are distinct, and they are completely united in one person. Clearly there is a lot more that can be said, but none of it changes the truth of anything in those last two sentences.

Is there anything in this post you disagree with? If so, why?

How is someone without a sin nature tempted? Dah bible says it, ah boleeve it, dat settles it .. is fine. I hold that view of it myself.

I was merely asking about the how. How can it be?

theological · 17-02-2020 10:23pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

"Scripture satisfying" leads to RC's "on this rock", Calvinism's "God choses man for reasons unknown" and Arminianisn's "man choses God despite not a single NT verse indicating man can chose for God".

You might agree that 'scripture satisfying' might say more about a persons threshold for satisfaction than it does about scripture's contents. Given you hold at least two of the above views unsatisfying yourself

Scripture says Jesus was tempted. That means he was tempted. I'm asking how? You don't seem interested in how.

Ask no questions get no lies, when applied to the Bible means you get no truth.

The reason I'm asking is to determine what criteria need to be met for you to have a sufficient answer.

The question is more epistemology. How do we know things about Jesus? The answer seems to be because God has revealed it to us through the prophets and most supremely in Christ. The Scriptural record shows us this testimony.

What source do you suggest is more reliable?

ChrisJ84 · 17-02-2020 11:46pm

antiskeptic wrote: »

How is someone without a sin nature tempted? Dah bible says it, ah boleeve it, dat settles it .. is fine. I hold that view of it myself.

Well, yeah. You can do a lot worse than taking that view of things. We don't need to understand something fully to believe it, especially when we have it on good authority. That's true in every area of life, not just in matters of faith.

antiskeptic wrote: »

I was merely asking about the how. How can it be?

I think that's where the comparison with Adam is helpful. Sinning didn't come naturally to Adam, like it does to us, but it had to be a possibility. Otherwise, how could his obedience be genuine? God didn't create an automoton.

The fact of Jesus humanity isn't where I see the difficulty, but rather in the fact of his divinity. And that brings us back to the unique nature of the incarnation, and to that dreaded word from the other thread: mystery. It simply can't be avoided, or eliminated.

That doesn't mean we don't study, think and grapple with scripture and with these truths. But it does mean that we're on a hiding to nothing if we think we're going to bottom out something like the incarnation. I don't think the Chalcedonian creed has ever been bettered as a biblical Christology, and all my thinking on these things is built on that foundation, but you could study and ponder this for a lifetime and never come to the end of it.

I'm more interested in what happens at that point - where understanding fails. At that point, we can choose to believe or disbelieve.

hinault · 18-02-2020 12:34am

I believe that the temptation which Jesus Christ underwent was real. It was real for several reasons.

One reason is that Satan in his infinite pride saw this as an opportunity to attack God through His (Jesus) physical nature.

A second reason is that because Jesus was true God and true man, He experienced (felt) the temptation that we each of us experiences (feels)

This second reason is a vital part of the Incarnation because God in his generosity and love for all mankind, lowered Himself to experience what we experience. He shared our burden to temptation, during 40 days in the desert.

One final point, temptation and succumbing to temptation are two different things.
Succumbing to temptation involves sinning.

antiskeptic · 18-02-2020 6:55am

theological wrote: »

The reason I'm asking is to determine what criteria need to be met for you to have a sufficient answer.

Any kind of 'how' would do for a start. That he was fully human and tempted as we are is a statement of fact. But it is not a how he was tempted as we are given he cannot be tempted via the mode we are tempted.

[Qupte]The question is more epistemology. How do we know things about Jesus? The answer seems to be because God has revealed it to us through the prophets and most supremely in Christ. The Scriptural record shows us this testimony.

What source do you suggest is more reliable?[/quote]

Given 'us' is a critical part in the above then obviously "us" is an important source. How we view the bible depends upon ourselves. Our thoughts, our experiences, our conclusions about everything, inform how we extract from the bible.

And there is, of course, my relationship with God. Although he breathe the bible, he isn't the bible. My knowledge of him also informs. Hence, for example my rejection of Refomed's God choosing this one and not that one. It doesn't fit him amd when I go look at the bible I find it doesn't fit there either. Not best fit in any case.

"Mystery" things might be on the matter of how Jesus could be tempted. But it's not the first answer I'd accept.

theological · 18-02-2020 9:04am

Human experience and a personal relationship with God is important. What order of priority does it have over Scripture as a source?

Personal experience can be a dangerous source if it comes into conflict with the Scriptures however. It could be pretty easy to make a god in our own image. I never said that God is the Bible but the Bible is His inspired word and it tells us about His character. He is the same yesterday today and forever so that means if someone comes with a radically different idea I can point to God's immutability.

On the question of how. I can't provide an exact answer because God hasn't revealed that to us. Much in the same way as He didn't reveal how a virgin can give birth.

That's ok in my view. There are limitations to what I can understand as a human being and I'm happy that is left in God's domain.

antiskeptic · 19-02-2020 5:43pm

theological wrote: »

Human experience and a personal relationship with God is important. What order of priority does it have over Scripture as a source?

What priority does flour have over oven temperature in the production of a cake? Wrong way to view it, priority.

Besides, it's not "over scripture" it's "over a personal interpretation of scripture. What priority does personal over personal have. Well, none. They both inform each other.

Personal experience can be a dangerous source if it comes into conflict with the Scriptures however. It could be pretty easy to make a god in our own image.

But making a God in own image is unavoidable - see above. All we can decide for ourselves is that we are heading to a point where the image and God are approaching each other rather than diverging from each other.

For there is only ourselves who can decide on these things. The idea that there is some sure fire method outside ourselves that can decide on matters independently from ourselves is blown out of the water by the commonly cited atheist trope: 66,000 squillion Christian denominations.

Majority doesn't rule either - the bigger ideas might be older, or more well developed. But that says nothing at all about them being on the right path. Besides - if you take "God sovereignly" chooses man .. for instance. That idea has been countered by the "other side" for centuries (they say man chooses God)

All citing scripture.

I never said that God is the Bible but the Bible is His inspired word and it tells us about His character. He is the same yesterday today and forever so that means if someone comes with a radically different idea I can point to God's immutability.

Non sequitur. Whilst the bible reveals God's character, what God's character is, isn't the preserve of anyone. My "radical" idea - God neither chooses man nor does man choose God - doesn't alter the character of God in the multitude of areas we can agree on.

On the question of how. I can't provide an exact answer because God hasn't revealed that to us. Much in the same way as He didn't reveal how a virgin can give birth.

But it is revealed: supernatural intervention. If God can create the world, he can produce a baby. He can insert a supernaturally produced sperm and off we go.

But God can't make a square circle.

And the question is, how does God be tempted as we are without being tempted as we are? Temptation stirs something within us, it latches onto a desire and tugs

It's just a discussion anyway - we're not going to overthrow Christianity by looking at it. Adam is probably a good one to look at, seeing as Jesus is the second Adam. Adam hadn't got sin yet temptation tugged at something in him - a desire.

Could it be that even God has a latent desire not to be Trinitarian. But that he is incorruptable.

Or could Jesus have fallen? Did God put even himself, his very being and essence on the line for us? That'd be astounding. Total love is totally self sacrificial after all. Prepared to risk one's total existance for the beloved. Wow.

That's ok in my view. There are limitations to what I can understand as a human being and I'm happy that is left in God's domain.

If it comes down to it, so am I. But as I've said: when I hear "mystery" I do wonder if that merely means the theology doesn't stack up (as it doesn't appear to stack up to me with "God chooses man"). And so, I think digging until you hit bedrock is the way to go

What do the temptations of Jesus in the wilderness mean?

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