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Undiagnosed circle of hell.

1356713

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    hi dlofnep

    Regarding mercury, I want to share some information.
    The first thing to say is the blood and urine mercury levels are useless for diagnosing chronic mercury toxicity - check any reference book it will confirm this.
    The second thing is taking chelators is not a simple risk free process. There is a danger of something called 'redistribution'. In other words the chelators can stir up mercury in the body and it can move around the body and potentially make things worse (turns out chelators are poorly effective - they only remove a small percentage of mercury with each dose).
    Now not all doc's who use chelators 'believe in' redistribution. My advise is before starting chelators ask your doc about redistribution - if he says it doesn't exist - walk away.
    The good news is you can minimise the chances of redistribution by changing the dosing, dosing times and schedules. The bad news is its tricky and complicated and most docs know nothing about it.

    I recommended you check out a guy called Andy Cutler who is a PhD chemist and has several books on the subject.

    You can also find more information and people’s stories on some yahoo groups including:
    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/adult-metal-chelation/
    http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/frequent-dose-chelation/

    Whatever you do if you do get diagnosed with mercury do your homework first before taking any chelators. Read everything about it. I don't know what your background is but if you have biochemical knowledge it will definitely help. Quiz your doctors. I personally attended one of the 'chelation clinics' mentioned previously in this thread and they f**ked me up good and proper (note this was not the clinic you have attended - but ask the guy about redistribution and ask him about Andy Cutler's frequent dose chelation protocol - if you are not happy with answers walk away)

    Also are you sure its mercury - think about your exposure risks - how many amalgams youg ot ? did they make a mess putting them in ? Ever broken any thermometers ? Played with mercury as a kid (sosooooooooo many people seemed to do this!) do you eat alot of tuna ? (if you do STOP, NOW)


    Anyhow - good luck with it!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭cltt97


    If it's the lactose in dairy that causes you upset you're less likely to suffer symptoms from yoghurt (i.e. fermented), but if it's dairy protein then the yoghurt will upset you as well. For the purpose you mention I would recommend acidophilus or acidophilus/bifidus tablets. Also, if you're taking a chelating agent, be aware that it will also bind useful elements, not only Hg, so this is something that should only be done under supervision and you may have to supplement certain nutrients and vitamins. Chelation therapy is not something to be taken lightly. Is it lucozade specifically that makes you faint, or what type of lucozade? Does this happen with other soft drinks or sweet things also? In this case it might be due to hypoglycaemia, could be due to insulin resistance. Of course these are all just "wild guesses" but may be worth looking into. In any case, I would suggest that you try to stay away from all processed and refined foods, maybe limit your carb intake a bit (especially the refined types, so no white bread/cakes/pasta, white rice, white sugar) and try to eat frequently, things like nuts and seeds, these are high in protein and full of good fats, so a good sustained energy source.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    It's lucozade specifically - the original, fizzy bottle.

    I'm aware of the issues surround chelation. I understand that it's too risky to take a chelating agent while I still have fillings as it may pull more mercury into my system. I will consult my dentist this week and see what happens.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    dlofnep wrote: »
    It's lucozade specifically - the original, fizzy bottle.

    I'm aware of the issues surround chelation. I understand that it's too risky to take a chelating agent while I still have fillings as it may pull more mercury into my system. I will consult my dentist this week and see what happens.

    Indeed not taking chelators with fillings in is a point I forgot to make. But redistribution can occur even if you don't have fillings in. Its an inherent part of the process of chelation


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166,026 ✭✭✭✭LegacyUser


    In relation to the disability allowance:

    I am in a similar situation and had to give up work. I am on Illness benefit and have no diagnosis. I explained the situation to my GP and she puts down 'Viral Illness' on the form. Sometimes she writes 'Query Neurological Symptoms'. So I don't think the diagnosis is that important, its more that you have been deemed unfit to work by a Doctor. You then collect a cert from the doctor once a week, the doctor shouldn't charge you - the receptionist will generally have it ready.
    Tha benefit amount is calculated in relation to your tax credits for 2009. Mine works out at €188 per week - the same as the dole. You can then apply for the medical card which should help with medical costs.

    At first I felt incredibly defeatist for giving up work and it seemed incomprehendible how much my life changed in my early twenties. Many times I also have the 'if i don't get better then I will call it a day' thoughts. But sometimes you just have to be, that doesn't mean accepting the situation fully, or giving up hope. It just means that you acknowledge that you are sick right now and your body and mind deserves rest.
    I have every intention of getting better. It is hard to be patient and you can't help but wish for that magic bullet. The lack of understanding from others can also be hard to deal with. Sometimes I envy those who have a clear diagnosis.

    Anyway I am going to see an alternative therapist next week who's praises I have heard from many people. I will let you know how it goes. Best of luck.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    sam34 wrote: »
    ok, could people ease up on throwing potential diagnoses out there please.
    sam34 wrote: »
    ok, again, can people PLEASE steer clear of suggesting/ruling out potential diagnoses
    sam34 wrote: »
    splendour, as has been posted before in the thread, please do not make any sort of attempt at diagnosis. this includes "it sounds like...."
    cltt97 wrote: »
    In this case it might be due to hypoglycaemia, could be due to insulin resistance.

    for the fourth time, could people PLEASE steer clear of suggesting potential diagnoses out there. Nobody here is qualified to suggest any possible diagnosis.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Hi guys,

    Quick update. I made an appointment today to have my amalgams removed. It's by a dentist that specializes in removal of them, and takes into account all safety precautions to ensure I do not get further poisoned. I'm going to test my mercury levels after removal, and go on a mercury detox process pending that.

    I'm just in the situation where I can't be sitting back and waiting, and need to start making moves.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    RE: Ally246, thanks for that. I'm going to pop into the doctors this week to consult regarding disability.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭cltt97


    Sorry if I appeared to make potential diagnoses, that's why I added that these are wild guesses. I just personally found that other people's experiences and knowledge helped me personally to approach my GP/Endocrinologist with suggestions that ultimately helped me getting better and they themselves would have never thought of it, so although I fully understand that we're not to diagnose anything I thought it may be helpful to suggest things that could be further explored with someone who is qualified to verify or at least consider them. But in any case I won't do it again.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I started the ball rolling today and got 2 fillings replace. 4 more to go (2 minor, 2 major) and then onto the detox process which should take about a year. The dentist seemed very well informed on the health concerns of mercury toxicity, and advised me of the best processes of detoxification. He was very careful during extraction to not expose me to more mercury. I'm very happy with the visit, and he was a gentleman.

    His name is <snip> incase anyone ever needs to find someone who practices safe amalgam removals.

    I'm going to join up a local gym and start swimming and doing some sauna work. It will get me back in shape, and the sauna is very helpful for removing heavy metals. The future is bright! Feeling positive today.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭tightropetom


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm going to join up a local gym and start swimming and doing some sauna work. It will get me back in shape, and the sauna is very helpful for removing heavy metals. The future is bright! Feeling positive today.

    That's good to hear. May I make a small (hopefully constructive) suggestion. If you are starting back into an exercise programme, try not to really push yourself hard for the first 3-4 weeks because that will increase risk of attrition/injury, thus may make you feel worse and may make you stop training.

    Slow and steady and you'll hopefully do ok!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The dentist seemed very well informed on the health concerns of mercury toxicity, and advised me of the best processes of detoxification.


    Care to share the details ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    dlofnep wrote: »

    His name is <snip> incase anyone ever needs to find someone who practices safe amalgam removals.

    Sorry dude - we don't allow specific practitioners to be mentioned in either a positive or a negative way - has to be that way I'm afraid. Maybe people could PM you?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Sorry about that :) Yes, PM me if you need the details!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Care to share the details ?

    Multiple routes really.

    One involves routine doses of DMSA, a chelating drug.

    Second is a more natural approach, which uses chlorella, cilantro, milk thistle and high antioxidant content drinks like blueberry which naturally flushes out the mercury over time. It's also important to have healthy bowel movements, and to eat sufficient protein.

    Sauna sessions are also very beneficial to help flush out mercury.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Multiple routes really.

    One involves routine doses of DMSA, a chelating drug.

    Second is a more natural approach, which uses chlorella, cilantro, milk thistle and high antioxidant content drinks like blueberry which naturally flushes out the mercury over time. It's also important to have healthy bowel movements, and to eat sufficient protein.

    Sauna sessions are also very beneficial to help flush out mercury.

    Aha I see.
    Do keep us posted as to how it is going !
    Good luck!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I sure will. I don't expect an immediate recovery. It will be long and arduous, but I'm willing to start taking the first steps.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Got my disability allowance form filled out by my GP today :) Handing in my notice to work. The time for recovery starts now. Alot of stress off my shoulders. Does anyone know how long it will be before I receive payments?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Got my disability allowance form filled out by my GP today :) Handing in my notice to work. The time for recovery starts now. Alot of stress off my shoulders. Does anyone know how long it will be before I receive payments?

    dunno dude but don't hand in your notice until you are sure of what you are getting and when!!!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    dunno dude but don't hand in your notice until you are sure of what you are getting and when!!!

    The form asks if I'm employed or not - Surely if I'm employed I won't qualify, so I have to hand in my notice?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭TrollHammaren


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Got my disability allowance form filled out by my GP today :) Handing in my notice to work. The time for recovery starts now. Alot of stress off my shoulders. Does anyone know how long it will be before I receive payments?

    Delighted for you, man! Did you follow my advice?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Can I submit it, with my employment listed?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    The form asks if I'm employed or not - Surely if I'm employed I won't qualify, so I have to hand in my notice?

    OH right sorry I don't know about this


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭cltt97


    maybe you could askt the social welfare officer in your area? You could also consider only working part time or only a couple of days a week or so as an alternative to completely quit your job? Maybe you could discuss this with HR and see what they think, if relations haven't deteriorated too much with them?
    Or maybe have a roam on the social welfare website or similar to see if you can find information on the normal rates etc?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I am working part-time as it stands, and it's too much. I'm not not well enough to work at all.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭cltt97


    well, in that case I would ring the social welfare office and explain the situation and enquire how long the application will take etc and say that you're planning to resign as soon as the application comes through as you can't live on thin air in the meantime? Or there might even be an alternative to all this, I think it's best to ring them directly and ask.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I'll pop into them tomorrow and find out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 737 ✭✭✭cltt97




  • Registered Users Posts: 22 ally23


    It took about 10 days until I received my first payment, You don't get paid for the first three days so your first payment is slightly lower, it then increases thereafter.

    Not sure about the situation with work, think you should be okay if you have handed in your notice and therefore won't be eligible for sick pay. But you would need to check this.
    Glad for you that you made the decision and hope it all comes good or you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    Just read the whole thread. I was going to say that I reckon the stress and responsibility of the job couldn't be good for your health. Hard to recover from anything when you're running around like a headless chicken.

    I'm out of work 10 years with Chronic fatigue/allergies/viral symptoms. I'll follow your progress on this thread, and I wish you the best of luck.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Thanks :)

    Quick update.

    I've sorted out illness benefit until I sort out a permanent disability benefit option. I can get it for up to 2 years, so I'm ok for the timebeing.

    I've been to the dentist on 3 visits and have the majority of fillings removed, only one more to go and then I'm done. I've also booked an appointment through my doctor to get my stomach and bowel checked out with a camera, as I often feel nauseous and get pains in my stomach. That will be about 4-6 weeks before I get called.

    Staying positive. I've started swimming also to help me at least get my fitness levels up. It can't be good to sit at home all day and do nothing - if I am to fight this, I have to be as fit as I can. I do swim, then sauna which is useful for moving the mercury out of my system. I'm going to test my mercury levels once the last piece is replaced and then start the detox process.

    Fingers crossed!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    Do you feel any different since getting the dental work done ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Do you feel any different since getting the dental work done ?

    No and if I did, it would only be placebo. It can take anywhere from 6 months to a year to detox the body of mercury. Removing the amalgam is only the first step - it is akin to turning off a dripping tap - but all the mercury accumulated on the body tissue and brain needs to be pushed out of the system. It's a long and tedious process, so I honestly won't really know for at least 6 months.

    I watched a documentary on mercury fillings from ITV and I was shocked at the response from the top guys from the British Dental association. They were back-peddling on everything, and contradicting themselves every second sentence. One guy went as far to start making childish noises because he didn't like the questions being asked.

    It showed a case of one woman who had them removed, and she said after a few months she felt very much improved.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    No and if I did, it would only be placebo. It can take anywhere from 6 months to a year to detox the body of mercury. Removing the amalgam is only the first step - it is akin to turning off a dripping tap - but all the mercury accumulated on the body tissue and brain needs to be pushed out of the system. It's a long and tedious process, so I honestly won't really know for at least 6 months.

    I watched a documentary on mercury fillings from ITV and I was shocked at the response from the top guys from the British Dental association. They were back-peddling on everything, and contradicting themselves every second sentence. One guy went as far to start making childish noises because he didn't like the questions being asked.

    It showed a case of one woman who had them removed, and she said after a few months she felt very much improved.


    Yes I know it takes a while to get it out - I was just curious. I've heard some anti-mercury dentists claim that people feel better much quicker - I don't really believe that thou.

    You should check out an organisation called Consumers for Dental Choice - fighting a battle against amalgam in the USA:
    http://www.toxicteeth.org/
    Interesting interviews:


    ...thou I DON'T endorse this Dr Mercola guy who is doing the interview - runs some health website that seems like a marketing tool:mad:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Thanks.

    The way I feel is that even if it isn't the fillings, at least I will have ruled it out and have shiney white teeth. It's a win-win situation :) Although I strongly suspect it is the fillings, as my health was perfect until I got fillings.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,001 ✭✭✭✭opinion guy


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Thanks.

    The way I feel is that even if it isn't the fillings, at least I will have ruled it out and have shiney white teeth. It's a win-win situation :) Although I strongly suspect it is the fillings, as my health was perfect until I got fillings.

    Out of curiosity if you don't mind to share - when did you get the fillings and how long did it take before you started getting symptoms ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Out of curiosity if you don't mind to share - when did you get the fillings and how long did it take before you started getting symptoms ?

    About 5 years ago. I started getting ill about 3 weeks afterwards, although it was a gradual onset. At the beginning, my symptoms weren't too bad. Just tired alot, felt my immune system was weak. Lots of colds. But eventually it has got to the point where I'm ill, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year. I have my good days and bad days, but I haven't felt like a normal person in 5 years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭kangaroo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Staying positive. I've started swimming also to help me at least get my fitness levels up. It can't be good to sit at home all day and do nothing - if I am to fight this, I have to be as fit as I can. I do swim, then sauna which is useful for moving the mercury out of my system. I'm going to test my mercury levels once the last piece is replaced and then start the detox process.

    Fingers crossed!
    Unfortunately, exercise in the period I was undiagnosed I believe led to a deterioration in my health although, of course, at the time I thought I was helping myself and was proud of my self-discipline in prioritising exercise. As I said earlier in the thread, I went on to be diagnosed with ME/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Post-Viral Syndrome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    kangaroo wrote: »
    Unfortunately, exercise in the period I was undiagnosed I believe led to a deterioration in my health although, of course, at the time I thought I was helping myself and was proud of my self-discipline in prioritising exercise. As I said earlier in the thread, I went on to be diagnosed with ME/Chronic Fatigue Syndrome/Post-Viral Syndrome.

    If I must be honest - I think all those names are a cop out from lazy doctors who don't want to pursue the root cause of these illnesses with the rigor that it deserves.

    I was told that I "might have ME" about 5 years ago just because I told a doctor that I was tired and ill alot. He didn't even entertain looking into it. Did nothing beyond a basic blood test and certainly wasn't in a position to diagnose me with anything.

    I'd be weary about listening to any doctor that throws up a diagnosis without knowing what's causing it. The body doesn't just break down one day and tell your immune system to stop working, and your body to become lethargic. There's always a cause. And that's what my mission is - to find out the cause, and not to get some GP who's trying to rush people in and out as fast as possible to get a quick buck to give me a catchy phrase.

    A diagnosis is irrelevant unless there is a cause that's found. At least, that's my feelings on the topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    truthaboutme, don't post in this thread again unless you have something to say which is helpful to the op or contributes to the discussion at hand. any posts nit following these guidelines will be deleted.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Thanks Sam :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭kangaroo


    dlofnep wrote: »
    If I must be honest - I think all those names are a cop out from lazy doctors who don't want to pursue the root cause of these illnesses with the rigor that it deserves.

    I was told that I "might have ME" about 5 years ago just because I told a doctor that I was tired and ill alot. He didn't even entertain looking into it. Did nothing beyond a basic blood test and certainly wasn't in a position to diagnose me with anything.

    I'd be weary about listening to any doctor that throws up a diagnosis without knowing what's causing it. The body doesn't just break down one day and tell your immune system to stop working, and your body to become lethargic. There's always a cause. And that's what my mission is - to find out the cause, and not to get some GP who's trying to rush people in and out as fast as possible to get a quick buck to give me a catchy phrase.

    A diagnosis is irrelevant unless there is a cause that's found. At least, that's my feelings on the topic.
    Well I can't really comment on your medical history but can comment on myself, some others I've come across and the field in general. Apologies if any of this is a repeat of something I've said before - it's a long thread.

    There is some research funded by the CDC and others that followed people who got some infections and a percentage have a similar symptom profile 6 and 12 months later e.g.
    http://www.cdc.gov/cfs/general/causes/index.html

    Recently published research suggests that infection with Epstein-Barr virus, Ross River virus and Coxiella burnetti will lead to a post-infective condition that meets the criteria for CFS in approximately 12% of cases. The severity of the acute illness was the only factor found to predict which individuals would have persistent symptoms characteristic of CFS at the six-month and one-year period following infection.

    ME or CFS or PVFS provides a useful working model for the symptoms I have. I became ill when I was 16 after not resting when I had an infection. I had been sporty up to that but any time I tried to exercise I would get muscle pains. I wanted to get back to my sports and was fed up being tired mentally and physically etc so went to different practitioners e.g. orthopaedic surgeons, physios, doctors, etc. In total, I had over 100 physio appointments. They all basically encouraged me to exercise - that exercise would help me and my symptoms based on how the body reacts in healthy people. However, I kept getting abnormal muscle pains and the like - usually based on the different muscle groups I'd tried to exercise. My health eventually deteriorated, I took a year out of college, tried to exercise, but my health gradually got worse. I have now been stuck at a low level (housebound) for 16 years; if I try to push the bounds, I get symptoms like sore throats, swollen and/or tender glands, and a variety of other symptoms.

    Since reading up about ME/CFS, I have read lots of studies that show that people with the condition have an abnormal response to exercise - it doesn't have the same effect on people with the condition as it does on healthy people. If I had had that label, I feel I would have been much more careful with exercise and never gotten to the low level of functioning I am now.

    I'm not happy that my life is passing me by; I, like many people with ME, have tried a myriad of treatments - having one's mercury fillings out is something I've heard lots of people talk about (I am so ill I don't feel up for it). I would certainly like to get to the root of the problem. But both the patient literature e.g. on how to manage the illness and the research literature e.g. exercise abnormalities, seems to provide a useful model for what I have. I have also met and sometimes become friendly with some people who have similar symptoms - we have a lot in common. Most people aren't as ill as me - there is a huge range of functioning just as in the initial years, I myself was fairly mildly affected (in full-time education).

    There is a lot of talk that CFS (the term generally used in the medical literature) is heterogeneous. There are lots of theories around about what could be causing it and how it should be treated. Lots of people say that there could be different subgroups included in the diagnosis. I hope research will come up with the answers. In the meantime, the diagnosis as I say provides a useful model for what I have. It is frustrating to have a condition where a lot is not known - but when one digs deeper, a lot is not known about a lot of conditions e.g. one may have read about the theory that MS should be treated by increasing the size of arteries/veins - who knows whether it is true or not, but the thing is that people don't know what causes MS.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 874 ✭✭✭eilo1


    kangaroo wrote: »
    Well I can't really comment on your medical history but can comment on myself, some others I've come across and the field in general. Apologies if any of this is a repeat of something I've said before - it's a long thread.

    There is some research funded by the CDC and others that followed people who got some infections and a percentage have a similar symptom profile 6 and 12 months later e.g.


    ME or CFS or PVFS provides a useful working model for the symptoms I have. I became ill when I was 16 after not resting when I had an infection. I had been sporty up to that but any time I tried to exercise I would get muscle pains. I wanted to get back to my sports and was fed up being tired mentally and physically etc so went to different practitioners e.g. orthopaedic surgeons, physios, doctors, etc. In total, I had over 100 physio appointments. They all basically encouraged me to exercise - that exercise would help me and my symptoms based on how the body reacts in healthy people. However, I kept getting abnormal muscle pains and the like - usually based on the different muscle groups I'd tried to exercise. My health eventually deteriorated, I took a year out of college, tried to exercise, but my health gradually got worse. I have now been stuck at a low level (housebound) for 16 years; if I try to push the bounds, I get symptoms like sore throats, swollen and/or tender glands, and a variety of other symptoms.

    Since reading up about ME/CFS, I have read lots of studies that show that people with the condition have an abnormal response to exercise - it doesn't have the same effect on people with the condition as it does on healthy people. If I had had that label, I feel I would have been much more careful with exercise and never gotten to the low level of functioning I am now.

    I'm not happy that my life is passing me by; I, like many people with ME, have tried a myriad of treatments - having one's mercury fillings out is something I've heard lots of people talk about (I am so ill I don't feel up for it). I would certainly like to get to the root of the problem. But both the patient literature e.g. on how to manage the illness and the research literature e.g. exercise abnormalities, seems to provide a useful model for what I have. I have also met and sometimes become friendly with some people who have similar symptoms - we have a lot in common. Most people aren't as ill as me - there is a huge range of functioning just as in the initial years, I myself was fairly mildly affected (in full-time education).

    There is a lot of talk that CFS (the term generally used in the medical literature) is heterogeneous. There are lots of theories around about what could be causing it and how it should be treated. Lots of people say that there could be different subgroups included in the diagnosis. I hope research will come up with the answers. In the meantime, the diagnosis as I say provides a useful model for what I have. It is frustrating to have a condition where a lot is not known - but when one digs deeper, a lot is not known about a lot of conditions e.g. one may have read about the theory that MS should be treated by increasing the size of arteries/veins - who knows whether it is true or not, but the thing is that people don't know what causes MS.

    Hi Kangaroo, Im sorry to hear about our problems. I just wanted to comment on CFS and exercise. Iv read a few papers on the benefits of graded exercise programs for individuals with CFS and thought you may be interested. I realise that it didnt work for you in the past while you where recovering but now that things have stabilised it may be beneficial to readdress. Perhaps your doctors could advise.

    Anyways here are some of the papers I have read.
    http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7283/387.abstract

    http://www.bmj.com/content/314/7095/1647.abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/9828987?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    I don't have any problems exercising. It makes me feel refreshed. My problems stem more from brain-fog, and a poor immune system. My body is otherwise in good shape. Regarding CFS/ME - I'm just not comfortable placing a name on how I feel. I'm only comfortable in seeking out a solution. So I'm narrowing down the causes. I have ruled out bloods. I'm now focusing on mercury toxicity, and my stomach and bowel. So long as I'm in search of a solution, I'll be happy. If I feel that I've exhausted every possible avenue, then at least I will have tried. But I think people are too quick to give up. I haven't given up yet, and I don't plan anytime soon. I'm not on this earth to lay in bed, and I certainly didn't do a degree to not be in a position to become employable.

    I'll make sure that I continue to update as to how I feel. I think it's important that we start documenting these unexplained illnesses, so other people with similar problems can relate and it might give them ideas on what areas to try or where to look.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭kangaroo


    eilo1 wrote: »
    Hi Kangaroo, Im sorry to hear about our problems. I just wanted to comment on CFS and exercise. Iv read a few papers on the benefits of graded exercise programs for individuals with CFS and thought you may be interested. I realise that it didnt work for you in the past while you where recovering but now that things have stabilised it may be beneficial to readdress. Perhaps your doctors could advise.

    Anyways here are some of the papers I have read.
    http://www.bmj.com/content/322/7283/387.abstract

    http://www.bmj.com/content/314/7095/1647.abstract

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez/9828987?dopt=Abstract&holding=f1000,f1000m,isrctn
    Those trials were not done on the severely affected.

    They used the Oxford criteria - basically anyone with chronic tiredness. It's not that surprising that some might benefit. I could criticise them more but it might be considered off-topic.

    My experiences of exercise are not unusual. For example, a survey by the (UK) ME Association found that of 906 who had done GET programs, 212 (23.4%) had been made "slightly worse" and 300 (33.1%) had been made "much worse" http://www.meassociation.org.uk/images/stories/2010_survey_report_lo-res.pdf . Such high rates of adverse reactions would be taken seriously if they were a drug. Many of us who have been harmed feel a duty to warn others to be careful.

    These guidelines discuss the issue further: http://www.mefmaction.com/images/stories/Overviews/Canadian_ME_Overview_A4.pdf including mentioning some of the numerous abnormal responses to exercise that have been found in the condition. There is a battle in the area which outsiders may not be aware of: psychiatrists and others say that all patients have is deconditioning - that there is nothing physically wrong. However, there is plenty of evidence to suggest their model is wrong.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 651 ✭✭✭kangaroo


    I read the following in a published article the other day. It made me think of this thread. It's about the different approaches people can take to health problems (also the paper makes clear that people can change in their viewpoint in time):
    Frank (1995, p. 76) proposes that three types of
    narrative exist, the restitution, chaos and quest
    narratives, and that in any illness narrative all three
    types will be told, with one type guiding the
    narrative at any one time.

    Restitution narrative

    The restitution narrative is framed as the most
    common narrative amongst the recently ill but least
    often evidenced amongst the chronically ill (Frank,
    1995, p. 77). The basic plot of the restitution story is
    that yesterday I was healthy, today I am sick but tomorrow I will be better (Frank, 1995, p. 77). This
    narrative type is about movement away from and
    back towards health, exploring the experiences and
    meaning of investigations and treatments.

    The ill person’s own desire for restitution is
    compounded by the expectation that other people
    want to hear restitution stories. The sick role is a
    master narrative in Western health care espoused in
    Parson’s sick role (Parsons, 1951) with the ultimate
    expectation that an individual will get well. People
    learn from institutional stories the model of how
    illness stories should be told. Media abounds with
    stories of those who have recovered and continued
    with their lives (Kroll-Smith, 2003).

    The restitution narrative reflects a modernist
    expectation that for every suffering there is a
    remedy. The emphasis is on the sufferer to solve
    the puzzle of illness (Frank, 1995, p. 80). This
    narrative type is one often used in the media to
    promote recovery from illness and portrays the
    ability to over come anything. For people living
    with a chronic illness, hearing stories of recovery
    can be both inspiring, that there is hope of positive
    change, and intimidating if they are unable to see
    anyway of taking steps to recovery and experience
    social pressures to overcome illness.

    The implicit genesis of illness in the restitution
    narrative is an unlucky breakdown in the body. The
    causal act is not drawn upon because the individual
    does not focus on illness, but rather on the recovery.

    Chaos narrative

    In the chaos narrative, the plot is that life will
    never get better; no one is in control. Sufferers
    describe experiencing an ‘‘emotional battering’’
    (Frank, 1995, p. 101) stemming from their rejection
    of their suffering by clinicians and socially by
    others. In the chaos narrative, the individual makes
    attempts to reassert predictability but these generally
    fail and efforts have a cost for the individual.
    The stories reveal vulnerability, futility and impotence
    (Frank, 1995, p. 97) and can be difficult to
    listen to. Chaos narratives depict people ‘‘sucked
    into the undertow of illness’’ whilst restitution
    narratives illustrate illness as ‘‘transitory’’ (Frank,
    1995, p. 115).

    Quest narrative
    In the quest narrative, individuals accept illness
    and seek to use this, believing that something is to
    be gained through the experience. Illness is seen as a
    challenge and an impetus for change (Frank, 1995,
    p. 166). This differs from the restitution narrative
    where individuals are not solely seeking recovery
    from illness.

    Three subtypes of quest narratives are proposed.
    The first is memoir in which events are related
    simply. The second is manifesto in which illness
    becomes a motivator for social action or change.
    The third is automythology in which illness is
    expanded to reveal fate or destiny (Frank, 1995,
    pp. 119–120).

    The person whilst no longer ill remains marked
    by illness. A hero’s status is derived from being
    initiated through agony to atonement. When this is
    the only narrative put forward the reader is
    encouraged to critically evaluate it where a move
    straight from the onset of symptoms to a quest
    narrative without apparent suffering appears ‘‘too
    clean’’ cut (Frank, 1995, p. 135).


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    Regarding CFS/ME and Graded Excercise, I'll just quote The Whittemore Peterson Institute Of Neuro Immune Disease:
    Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) and Graded Exercise Therapy (GET) were developed as support therapies for those with primary depression who are otherwise in good health.

    It is well known that appropriately diagnosed ME and CFS patients suffer with signs, symptoms and laboratory findings consistent with a persistent infection. Although there is a place for psychotherapy and exercise appropriate to severity in any chronic illness, the suggestion that such coping strategies are a substitute for meaningful treatment is an insult to patients.

    Just as doctors would never prescribe such treatments for HIV, it is irresponsible to suggest these methods would be effective for patients with a serious infectious neuro-immune disease.

    Research physiologists have clearly shown that exercise can cause an exacerbation of the disease, especially when patients are forced to exercise or when told to “push through” their illness.

    Since the WPI’s discovery of a high correlation between retroviral infection and neuro-immune diseases, it is unforgivable for physicians to continue to harm their patients psychologically by suggesting they are responsible for, or can be talked out of, being ill.


    DLOFNEP -
    I'm sorry to see your thread go off the rails with bickering. Hopefully we can get back to the topic at hand. For anyone who wants to discuss CFS/ME and all the glorious controversy surrounding it, I've made a thread here:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=71400145#post71400145


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭condra


    By the way DLOFNEP, I took a leaf out of your book and decided to book an appointment with Drummartin Clinic. I'm going to go with a fairly open mind. I'll make a thread about my experience at some point.

    Going back to your story though, and I just wanted to say something about graded excercise etc. My own experience (ME/CFS/Undiagnosed) is that I can do some moderate exercise during a "good patch" - but during a "bad patch" it is completely out of the question. When I'm sick, not only do my weak muscles tire quickly, but my coordination is bad, and movement causes nausea.

    I think for many people with unexplained illness, it can be very quickly apparent whether or not exercise helps with their condition. I'm sure it can help with some conditions, but if exercise makes you worse, for goodness sakes get some rest.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    truthaboutme, do not post in this thread again. at all. any more posts of yours will be deleted.

    kangaroo, wildoscar, truthaboutme, if ye haveissues with each others opinions/ beliefs etc, take it to pm or use the ignore function.

    everyone, back on topic please!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 15,914 ✭✭✭✭tbh


    Please note - the mods will take all and every step possible to prevent the unregistered posting function from being abused.

    I'm a pretty patient guy, but when I see someone putting the use of this function in jeopardy to score points anonymously, it pisses me off.

    If it happens again, I'll be going to the admins to try and find out more info on who's doing it, and I promise you, that will not be the end of the matter.


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