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Is there Copyright on Royalty-free Folk Songs?

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  • 08-09-2013 12:36am
    #1
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭


    Our band would like to do an arrangement of a folk song which is listed as a royalty-free folk song on the website www.traditionalmusic.co.uk is there any copyright issues in doing this? Because the song is referred to on the website as being "royalty-free" does that mean we are free to play our arrangement of the song at any of our gigs and record it on our album or release it as a single without infringing anybody's copyright?
    We don't want to do it if we would get ourselves into trouble!
    Tagged:


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    #2
    trad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,696 ✭✭✭trad


    My understanding of the way IMRO work (and I am very much open to correction) is that if you preform in a premises that is licensed by IMRO the venue pay a license fee to IMRO who then distribute some portion of it to the copyright holder.

    When you record a version of a song that is subject to copyright you then become liable to pay a royalty fee to the owner of the copyright.

    Read this book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Need-Know-About-Music-Business/dp/0670918865

    I had a copy but lent and haven't got it back yet but it's a great insight into how the music business works


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    #3
    mathepac
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,991 ✭✭✭mathepac


    The website OP links to contains very clear copyright statements. To quote some of it

    "The materials on this site are provided for personal, non commercial, research and educational purposes. Some items e.g. books are covered by particular or public commons licensing. (see below)

    To the best of my knowledge, unless otherwise stated, the music included mainly comes under the traditional category and is out of copyright* or otherwise within the public domain category or are personal transcriptions. My arrangements are intended to be generic, and do not represent the performance of any particular artist, band or version. The arrangements and midis are all my own work and my copyright. However, you are welcome to use these scores and midis to help with your personal music training and development, and you may pass them to your musician friends for their personal training purposes. I would also recommend that before using this material as the basis for any public performance or commercial exploitation check the copyright status with HFA, BMI, ASCAP and similar agencies. The other lists and information on this site have been generated by me from my own researches, and is my copyright material. "

    The site owner even gives directions on where to check further.


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    #4
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    druidstone wrote: »
    Our band would like to do an arrangement of a folk song which is listed as a royalty-free folk song on the website www.traditionalmusic.co.uk is there any copyright issues in doing this? Because the song is referred to on the website as being "royalty-free" does that mean we are free to play our arrangement of the song at any of our gigs and record it on our album or release it as a single without infringing anybody's copyright?
    We don't want to do it if we would get ourselves into trouble!

    Which song is it? Is the author still alive?

    Is the song is copyrighted you may still arrange and record your version once it is in the public domain (this means that it has been recorded and released once before). The owner of the copyright will claim mechanical royalties on it. You just need to list the copyright owner after the song title on your album.

    If the song is traditional (i.e. a lot of folk songs handed down from generation to generation) you may arrange the song however you wish, copyright that arrangement and collect performance and mechanical royalties on it.

    IMRO or MCPS will be able to tell you the status of the particular song if you contact them. Indeed, if you give them a list of tracks for your album they will be able to tell you which are traditional and which are copyrighted.


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    #5
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Thanks for the info. The Author passed away in 1978 and the song was originally a poem, now its become a folk song and been sung by many. It's even been recorded by Christy Moore. But our version is different, we use different chords and timing and playing it with our full band in rehearsals it sounds so different, and so awesome. We are really keen to start playing it at our gigs and record it, so I will check with IMRO, and do what we have to do to in order to do everything properly.


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    #6
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    The song has also previously been recorded and played by Christy Moore, although our arrangement is completely different.


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    #7
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    Do you want the good news or the bad news?

    The good news is that you can arrange the song, perform and record it as it is clearly in the public domain.

    The bad news is that you won't be able to claim any royalties on it as the author's estate will be claiming them. Once a work has been composed or created the copyright will remain with the author/creator until 70 years after their death (70 years in Ireland - other jurisdictions may vary). You will have to pay mechanical royalties to MCPS for each copy of the album printed. As far as I am aware the author's estate can claim the performance royalties too. You would just get the revenue from CD sales.

    If you were to take a traditional work, e.g. a poem or song not subject to copyright and apply your arrangement to it then you could claim both mechanical and performance royalties on that work.


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    #8
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Thanks for that I've also emailed to IMRO to ask for advice, I will find out who owns the copyright to the song. Christy Moore has recorded it so at least I know the copyright owner will allow it. Of course once I contact the copyright owner and assuming we can also obtain permission we'd need to get something in writing outlining the conditions under which the approval is granted, just to cover ourselves in future.


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    #9
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    druidstone wrote: »
    Thanks for that I've also emailed to IMRO to ask for advice, I will find out who owns the copyright to the song. Christy Moore has recorded it so at least I know the copyright owner will allow it. Of course once I contact the copyright owner and assuming we can also obtain permission we'd need to get something in writing outlining the conditions under which the approval is granted, just to cover ourselves in future.

    You don't need permission. You just credit the author on your album.


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    #10
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Just want to make sure we don't have to pay royalties in advance for every copy of the CD we get printed. (someone said that earlier) I don't mind if we will have to pay royalties, but we sure don't want to pay royalties to anyone unless we make a profit from it. Hopefully, IMRO will answer my query with some advice on that.


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    #11
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    You will usually get a bill from MCPS for any tracks where mechanical royalties are due. It is directly related to how many cd's you have manufactured. I can't remember how exactly it is calculated, MCPS should be able to help you there. Indeed, you may be due some of these royalties.

    Performance royalties are collected from radio stations, shops, etc. by IMRO and distributed to the authors. You or other copyright owners would be collecting these royalties, rather than paying them out.


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    #12
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    The song is Back Home in Derry written by Bobby Sands, and I have discovered there is a Bobby Sands Trust. I am guessing from their website that they are the copyright owners, so I'll check with them. Thanks for all the info and help!


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    #13
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    You're welcome. Hope it goes well for you.


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    #14
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Thanks I hope they don't take too long to reply!


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    #15
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,723 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    druidstone wrote: »
    The song is Back Home in Derry written by Bobby Sands, and I have discovered there is a Bobby Sands Trust. I am guessing from their website that they are the copyright owners, so I'll check with them. Thanks for all the info and help!

    That deals with the words.

    But there's another problem: the tune.

    Is you arrangemement of a completely new tune? Or is it an adaptation of Gordon Lightfoot's tune originally used for "Wreck of the Edumnd Fitzgerald". If it's the latter (or an arrangement of some other tune) then you have a 2nd copyright owner to deal with too.

    Sorry ....


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    #16
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    It has been recorded many times already. You just need to give the correct credit on the album and IMRO / MCPS will take care of the rest. You don't need permission from anyone.


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    #17
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Thanks for the info, I am not familiar with that tune, but what we've done is an arrangement of the tune "Back Home in Derry" recorded by Christy Moore we've made it slower and changed the chord structure a lot, and added lots of new instrumental parts


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    #18
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Páid wrote: »
    It has been recorded many times already. You just need to give the correct credit on the album and IMRO / MCPS will take care of the rest. You don't need permission from anyone.

    Thanks does that mean we wouldn't have to pay mechanical royalties for each CD manufactured (as someone suggested previously) as long as the correct credits are on the album? We don't mind paying royalties at all, but would only record it if royalties were paid only if and when there is any sales.


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    #19
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,723 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    druidstone wrote: »
    Thanks for the info, I am not familiar with that tune, but what we've done is an arrangement of the tune "Back Home in Derry" recorded by Christy Moore we've made it slower and changed the chord structure a lot, and added lots of new instrumental parts

    Back Home in Derry is not a tune.

    It is a song (ie set of words), which Christy Moore and others have sung to Gordon Lightfoot's tune.

    If you've used it, then you will likely have to pay royalties for that, too.


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    #20
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    As far as I am aware MCPS will send you a bill for all of the mechanical royalties after you have the album duplicated. For songs where there are two copyright owners (i.e. one for the words and one for the tune) you still pay the same royalty on it. The royalty is split between the copyright owners. You will probably have to pay this in advance of any cd sales.

    You don't get to choose to pay mechanical royalties if there are any sales. You have to pay them regardless of if there are any sales or not. MCPS should be able to let you know how much (roughly) it will cost if you give them a track listing and tell them how many cd's you want to have made.


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    #21
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Thanks for the info, we wont bother recording it if we have to pay a huge amount, before we have sold any CD's. Thats just crazy! How do you find out how much mechanical royalites are due? There's not much of the tune that resembles the original, and there's more original music in there than the original tune so how are royalties calculated?. We have plenty of our own original material to record, so maybe we'll just stick to that. And if we want to arrange a traditional folk tune in future, we'll make sure there that the tune is well and truly in the public domain and royalty-free! (there are plenty of those!) thanks so much for your help!


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    #22
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    Contact MCPS, they are the only people that can tell you how much it will cost. You should be joining IMRO/MCPS if you are recording your own original work and registering those pieces with them. They will collect royalties for you for your works.


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    #23
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Thanks for that. I have contacted IMRO a few weeks ago for advice on the royalties due, but they never replied to me. Oh well I will just persist with it until I find the answer because its bugging me now! (How much in mechanical royalties would be due). Thanks so much for your advice. :-)


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    #24
    Páid
    Registered Users Posts: 916 ✭✭✭Páid


    IMRO won't be collecting royalties from you. As an artist they would be paying you instead.

    Ring MCPS as they collect the mechanical royalties.


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    #25
    druidstone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 74 ✭✭druidstone


    Thanks for your help, yes it's an arrangement of that tune, but not sure how much of the original tune remains. We don't want any legal problems so we won't be recording this unless we have all the necessary approvals, it's not worth the nightmare! There are plenty of great royality-free folk tunes we can arrange, and we've got a good number of originals (entirely our own works) too so luckily, we'll still be able to record an album with or without this song. We are not depending on it.


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