Forgiving/Unforgiving

bassy · 27-09-2020 2:26am

Leg End Reject wrote: »

This is my view on it too.

Seeing as he's been mentioned, where is feg these days?

Riding some ones wife

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 11:19am

SnowyMay wrote: »

Jesus Wibbs. Do you have some anger issues?

Nope, merely used a descriptive term. Whoremaster works for the male version.

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you know there are plenty of trustworthy people out there Wibbs?

Because I know and have known them. I know men and women that haven't cheated even with clear opportunities where the chances of being discovered were pretty much nil. I myself have never cheated and had opportunity and some real temptation when at the end of a relationship. I made a moral choice not to. While it has been my experience that cheating is pretty much identical between the sexes on the end of a relationship cheating front I have found women way more likely to do this and accept it as OK, often couched in BS excuses, but the reality for quite the number is they can't be single and want to grab the next branch before they let go of the previous one. I've known a few to hang onto both branches until they worked out which was the more advantageous for them. Often using the "I don't know how I feel" defence with both.

SnowyMay wrote: »

Yes, because he used the word “whores”. I’m no snowflake, but if somebody called me a a whore, I’d be gone faster than if they cheated. It’s a word meant to degenerate, and, as I think we have seen from this thread, lots of people cheat. Maybe some of them have reasons. That word is unnecessary and purposefully nasty.

A nasty word for a nasty act and individual. Still works for me. I find it fascinating that you'd be out the door if you were called a whore faster than if they had abused you, the core of your relationship and trust, even increased the risk of you catching STD's. Remember the old kids trope, sticks and stones? Well cheating is a stick and a stone.

Never mind that I could never understand how being called something one is not can cause much beyond confusion. If someone called me a martian would I take issue? Of course not, because I'm not from Mars. The only spoken barbs that have ever stung had the ring of truth to them. That was their power. If there's no truth to the insult big whoop, beyond questioning why the hell someone, particularly someone close to me decided to fire something like that at me.

Kylta wrote: »

Name calling is all about social concept.
Why does the word whore upset a woman when she is called it? Yet when a man is called a whoremaster he is adored and idolised.

Likely down to basic differences in basic reproduction and resources sharing between the sexes. Right off the bat paternity. Until paternity testing came along men were never 100% sure of paternity, whereas a woman was 100% sure her child was hers, even if the father was an unknown. There's not exactly much call for a maternity tests. With the coming of the agricultural revolution and more resources and inheritance, paternity became more important as men didn't want to "waste" resources on another man's child. Hence the world religions that mostly sprang out of that revolution have been keen to make such things verboten. Now if a man cheats this can also bring "resource concerns" if the other woman has a child by him and thins the resources to the primary family, but both women are still 100% sure of their maternity. It's also more likely to kick off violence with the cuckolded male partner so no so good for society. Even the term cuckhold for a man(I can't recall if there's even a an equivalent in women?) has a very strong insult factor. Considering that genetically there are more female lines than male it seems this concern had some foundation. Lastly as far as sex goes women are in control of "access" to that to a much greater degree than men are, so it's essentially "easier" to be a whore than a whoremaster. Plus because of this "access" aspect a woman putting it about is going against the grain in many ways. Indeed throughout my life I've heard words like slut used more by women than men and coming from different angles.

Airbus507 · 27-09-2020 11:25am

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, merely used a descriptive term. Whoremaster works for the male version.

Because I know and have known them. I know men and women that haven't cheated even with clear opportunities where the chances of being discovered were pretty much nil. I myself have never cheated and had opportunity and some real temptation when at the end of a relationship. I made a moral choice not to. While it has been my experience that cheating is pretty much identical between the sexes on the end of a relationship cheating front I have found women way more likely to do this and accept it as OK, often couched in BS excuses, but the reality for quite the number is they can't be single and want to grab the next branch before they let go of the previous one. I've known a few to hang onto both branches until they worked out which was the more advantageous for them. Often using the "I don't know how I feel" defence with both.

A nasty word for a nasty act and individual. Still works for me. I find it fascinating that you'd be out the door if you were called a whore faster than if they had abused you, the core of your relationship and trust, even increased the risk of you catching STD's. Remember the old kids trope, sticks and stones? Well cheating is a stick and a stone.

Never mind that I could never understand how being called something one is not can cause much beyond confusion. If someone called me a martian would I take issue? Of course not, because I'm not from Mars. The only spoken barbs that have ever stung had the ring of truth to them. That was their power. If there's no truth to the insult big whoop, beyond questioning why the hell someone, particularly someone close to me decided to fire something like that at me.

Likely down to basic differences in basic reproduction and resources sharing between the sexes. Right off the bat paternity. Until paternity testing came along men were never 100% sure of paternity, whereas a woman was 100% sure her child was hers, even if the father was an unknown. There's not exactly much call for a maternity tests. With the coming of the agricultural revolution and more resources and inheritance, paternity became more important as men didn't want to "waste" resources on another man's child. Hence the world religions that mostly sprang out of that revolution have been keen to make such things verboten. Now if a man cheats this can also bring "resource concerns" if the other woman has a child by him and thins the resources to the primary family, but both women are still 100% sure of their maternity. It's also more likely to kick off violence with the cuckolded male partner so no so good for society. Even the term cuckhold for a man(I can't recall if there's even a an equivalent in women?) has a very strong insult factor. Considering that genetically there are more female lines than male it seems this concern had some foundation. Lastly as far as sex goes women are in control of "access" to that to a much greater degree than men are, so it's essentially "easier" to be a whore than a whoremaster. Plus because of this "access" aspect a woman putting it about is going against the grain in many ways. Indeed throughout my life I've heard words like slut used more by women than men and coming from different angles.

Superb post, cuts right through the bull****.

27-09-2020 11:28am

Wibbs, what's your honest opinion on this scenario...a group of say 30 men aged 30 to 65 ish go on a weekend away abroad for a stag/ event ,a cross section from all walks of life, a similar group of women do the same thing, do you think a similar % of cheating would go on in both groups, be honest?ðŸ˜›

SnowyMay · 27-09-2020 11:57am

Wibbs wrote: »

Nope, merely used a descriptive term. Whoremaster works for the male version.

Does “Whoremaster” work for the male version? I don’t think so.

In fact, it was mentioned on thread that this is a word which would inspire respect. I don’t agree, but it doesn’t have the levity of “Whore”. Would you agree?

Wibbs wrote: »

A nasty word for a nasty act and individual. Still works for me. I find it fascinating that you'd be out the door if you were called a whore faster than if they had abused you, the core of your relationship and trust, even increased the risk of you catching STD's. Remember the old kids trope, sticks and stones? Well cheating is a stick and a stone.

If I was with somebody who thought it was acceptable to call me a whore, I would be gone. What are they trying to achieve other than to hurt? That is an action with no other purpose than to cause pain and undermine a person. That is anger, pure and simple. At least with cheating they will get their rocks off.

Cheating - whilst bad, bad, bad isn’t somebody necessarily trying to cause hurt. It’s awful, but it can happen in a moment of madness, (or for reasons as set out above) and can destroy a relationship, but it is the cheater doing something, and not deliberately trying to blame or insult their partner in a horrible way.

Wibbs wrote: »

If someone called me a martian would I take issue? Of course not, because I'm not from Mars.

I would also not take issue with being called a Martian. Unless things have changed, it’s not an insult. In fact, in the right context, it could be a compliment.

Being called a whore though doesn’t have the same flexibility. And I am talking here about your context and use.

Wibbs wrote: »

Lastly as far as sex goes women are in control of "access" to that to a much greater degree than men are, so it's essentially "easier" to be a whore than a whoremaster.

I have to say, this is a weird argument.

Women can go out and hook up pretty much any time they want, because men are willing and available!

Men can’t do the same anytime they want because women aren’t so available.

I haven’t responded to all of the points in your post as it was a very long post. But, if there is anything else, I’m more than willing to discuss.

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 11:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

Wibbs, what's your honest opinion on this scenario...a group of say 30 men aged 30 to 65 ish go on a weekend away abroad for a stag/ event ,a cross section from all walks of life, a similar group of women do the same thing, do you think a similar % of cheating would go on in both groups, be honest?��

No D. In that particular scenario and that age group I'd generally expect more cheating in the men.

Just in my experience mind you, I have found women's cheating generally tends to be more local, domestic and more one on one involved and often more about finding a way out of a current relationship, even if not with the bit on the side. He may merely provide the confirmation and push that the old relationship is fully over.

That's beyond early adulthood anyway. In the 20's with a weekend or holiday away from partners it would be more equal. Having gone on one such getaway with friends of both sexes in my late twenties the cheating where it occurred was pretty much equally divided between the men and women. How they framed the cheating was interesting. The men were more bragging about a bit of skirt, the women more guarded and more likely to pretend it didn't happen to the point of blocking it from their heads. More of a what goes on on holiday, stays on holiday. The ditzy eat, pray, love types were a charm for this. They're more likely to have a "Moment" with Sven from Sweden in the dunes of a night, rather than pulling the tipsy blonde bird from Dagenham and having a leg trembler in the hotel car park.

I'd reckon the differences are often down to opportunity. IE a married man with kids at say 35 is more free to play away than a married woman with kids at 35. Simply because the woman is generally busier. Plus and generally speaking while a woman at 20 has more options than a man at 20, that tends more to reverse as people age. Particularly if the guy is even half way successful in life.

27-09-2020 12:06pm

I agree with your reply but let's call a spade a spade, by cheating I'm really referring to paying for it rather than randomly meeting up with someone, of that hypothetical group of men what % would you predict go for that option?

27-09-2020 12:10pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I agree with your reply but let's call a spade a spade, by cheating I'm really referring to paying for it rather than randomly meeting up with someone, of that hypothetical group of men what % would you predict go for that option?

What does paying for it have to do with cheating?..

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 12:15pm

SnowyMay wrote: »

Does “Whoremaster” work for the male version? I don’t think so.

In fact, it was mentioned on thread that this is a word which would inspire respect. I don’t agree, but it doesn’t have the levity of “Whore”. Would you agree?

Depends on the audience it seems. If I were to called a whoremaster and if it was accurate it would expose me to question my behavior. As indeed it did. If I wasn't? Big whoop. Like I say the barbs that sting have the ring of truth to them, or should.

If I was with somebody who thought it was acceptable to call me a whore, I would be gone. What are they trying to achieve other than to hurt? That is an action with no other purpose than to cause pain and undermine a person. That is anger, pure and simple. At least with cheating they will get their rocks off.

Cheating - whilst bad, bad, bad isn’t somebody necessarily trying to cause hurt. It’s awful, but it can happen in a moment of madness, (or for reasons as set out above) and can destroy a relationship, but it is the cheater doing something, and not deliberately trying to blame or insult their partner in a horrible way.

And this is where we fundamentally differ. And again back to sticks and stones. A spoken word insult can come from a moment of madness too and the damage is all in the head of the insulted. An action, rather a series of discrete actions that leads to sexual involvement with someone other than your partner is far more involved and far more "planned" with many more steps before it happens. Unless someone works on the principle of it "just happened". Like this:

Put it another way S, I could insult you call you a "whore" right now on this thread and all it took were a few keystrokes. We can't exchange illicit texts, meet up for "drinks" and do the beast with two backs, behind your partner's back. Cheating requires far more intent than speaking a word.

I have to say, this is a weird argument.

Women can go out and hook up pretty much any time they want, because men are willing and available!

Men can’t do the same anytime they want because women aren’t so available.

Well, exactly and hence it's easier to be whore than a whoremaster. I don't see the confusion. It's not a value judgement on either sex, merely a reflection of the realities. Just like noting that there are significantly more women prostitutes servicing men than male gigolos servicing women. There are fundamental gender differences at play here. In essence eggs are more precious and in shorter supply than sperm.

27-09-2020 12:19pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

What does paying for it have to do with cheating?..

I just get the impression that people seem to think that women are equally likely to cheat as men, in my personal experience I don't believe that, not saying they don't but not as much imo, I asked a question about 2 hypothetical groups and the likelihood of cheating in whatever form that may be, paying, random pick up etc...what part don't you understand?

27-09-2020 12:24pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I just get the impression that people seem to think that women are equally likely to cheat as men, in my personal experience I don't believe that, not saying they don't but not as much imo, I asked a question about 2 hypothetical groups and the likelihood of cheating in whatever form that may be, paying, random pick up etc...what part don't you understand?

Well, you said that by cheating you were really referring to paying for it..of course men are probably more likely to pay for it, but not necessarily more likely to cheat..and cheating and not paying for it is no better than paying for it..

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 12:25pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with your reply but let's call a spade a spade, by cheating I'm really referring to paying for it rather than randomly meeting up with someone, of that hypothetical group of men what % would you predict go for that option?

Depends entirely on the group "culture" involved D. Of the male groups I know or have known there would be quite marked differences in tolerance and encouragement for that sorta thing. For a start in my friends circle I can't think of one man who would pay for it(though some would otherwise cheat and have).

In one group I knew mostly on the periphery many moons ago mostly middle aged guys who enjoyed golf(always a worry

) and weekends away minus the little missus, yeah there were a few among them who would pay for it on such weekends with maybe not the approval of some in their party, but an acceptance of it and an unspoken omerta among them that that sorta thing never happened.

One guy told me while pissed he and his wife after the third kid came along hadn't had sex in over 5 years. That was his reason to himself anyway and it is a somewhat valid one and I suppose a "safer" one to be having annual one offs with a sex worker who is far more likely to use condoms, than extended ins and out with Mary from the office in the photocopy room after the christmas do. Me, I'd hope I'd address the home issues first and try to work that out, but...

screamer · 27-09-2020 12:27pm

No forgiveness, and I’d get none either, that’s how we are and that’s it. Personally have no time for cheats, morally bankrupt people who I’d not trust as far as I can see. If you don’t want someone anymore just let them go, don’t ruin them by cheating on them.

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 12:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I just get the impression that people seem to think that women are equally likely to cheat as men, in my personal experience I don't believe that, not saying they don't but not as much imo, I asked a question about 2 hypothetical groups and the likelihood of cheating in whatever form that may be, paying, random pick up etc...what part don't you understand?

Yes but you're mostly talking about paying for it, which definitely has a wide gender difference. You're also talking more about maturer people. Like you noted people from 30-60. And likely more settled people too, eoither in very longtermers or married and more likely with kids. That's rigging the game as it were to reinforce your already held, possibly through bad experiences position that men are more likely to cheat.

As far as cheating in general, that is having it away with someone that isn't your partner, it has been my experience that women are just as prone to it as men, but generally in different ways. The overlapping relationships thing earlier I have found is far more in play with women than men. Indeed I've personally only know one guy who did it and only the once. Right now I can think of five women off the top of my head that did it and repeatedly and none of them saw it as cheating particularly, not in the classical sense. Hell I was that soldier in one example of being cheated on and I've been that soldier as the one doing the cheating with them(save for one case I didn't initially know they had an existing partner). I even started a relationship with one woman out of such an scenario, though didn't find out until down the line and when pressed she used all sorts of excuses and memory shifts to try to convince me it wasn't cheating on the previous guy. She had herself fully convinced and had largely wiped it from her romantic narrative. Something I have found women much more at ease with and not just with cheating. I've also known more women who cheat emotionally than men. IE share emotional intimacy with men that aren't their partner.

TL;DR? Cheating runs about equal between men and women in my experience and in my humble. Just their definitions may vary.

Gruffalux · 27-09-2020 12:49pm

SnowyMay wrote: »

Cheating - whilst bad, bad, bad isn’t somebody necessarily trying to cause hurt. It’s awful, but it can happen in a moment of madness, (or for reasons as set out above) and can destroy a relationship, but it is the cheater doing something, and not deliberately trying to blame or insult their partner in a horrible way.

.

This is not true. Cheating is a conscious act and if done without informing your partner first is a very insulting thing to do to them. It degrades them, and their trust in what their life is, in real time.

The moment of madness excuse which is often used by people for various things is a paper thin one. No one gets to be that mad. No one gets to have such lack of control. It is imaginary. I have been very drunk and very stoned in my life and known what I am doing. Now unless the person was passed out which is rape. A moment of madness excuse is an attempt at out of body metaphysics as mitigation.

Whore is not a nice word to use. But neither is prick or bastard or cheating cùnt. Which I might call someone inclined to cheat, eg the partner of a friend. One friend experienced her husband installing his lover in a house on their land. She forgave him eventually when the lover left. I still call him, without fail, that fcuking prick.

Having said that, once in a long marriage my husband has used a terrible word crossly at me. It was a shock and took a while to get over. But it was minute compared to if he had cheated on me.

27-09-2020 2:27pm

Cheating can be complicated. It can be a one night stand or a lengthy affair, it can be carried out from a place of contempt and unfeeling towards your partner or it can happen in a tortuous way destroying yourself.

I never judge because I know people on both sides and the pain all involved experienced. And women can absolutely be just as unfaithful as men. It's naive to think otherwise.

For anyone here who has been deceived please don't let that make you hard and cynical. Learn to trust again because life can be lonely behind that wall. It isn't true that most people are untrustworthy. Most people are wonderful and will love and care for you.

B.A._Baracus · 27-09-2020 3:34pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

That's a bit of a stretch. Robbing, raping, beating, torturing, abusing, murdering, scamming, kidnapping, bullying would definitely be worse in my opinion.

And you sound like a bitter person. Yes whore and junkie are nasty demeaning words. Calling someone a bastard or a scumbag (nasty words too) is a bit different beause you are labelling someone who is a nasty fcuker with a term that fits their behaviour. But calling someone a whore because they cheated or a junkie because they have a drug problem just shows that you are vindictive. I don't need to cast judgement on someone because of their own weaknesses. I'm bigger than that.

Where to begin?
You split hairs with me as to what's worse in life. That's the first sign of an arsehole to be honest.

You come to the conclusion after a few sentences from me that I am "bitter" - so either one of two things are happening right now

you have some amazing ability in life to read people through and through from a few lines posted on an internet website or you're up your own arse and think you are clever. Calling someone names to make your opinion more valid. If it's the former please join the police force as they could use some awesome detectives ... But it's not really the former is it

Then you go on to say how calling someone a whore or junkie is wrong but calling someone a bastard or scumbag is perfectly acceptable.

Wow. Just wow :pac:

Then you cap it all off with calling me vindictive but not before you blow yourself out saying how bigger of a person you are.

I am in awe of your post mate. But I must ask how do you fit your head up your own arse? Do you have to remove some ribs? :pac:

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 3:51pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Cheating can be complicated. It can be a one night stand or a lengthy affair,

True. There is the "one off" and the longer term thing. Quite different in dynamic. Whatever about moving past a one off, the more sustained sort is Game Over. Respect is out the window pretty much. I'm sure some have worked through such things, often for "the sake of the kids", but wouldn't be for me.

it can be carried out from a place of contempt and unfeeling towards your partner or it can happen in a tortuous way destroying yourself.

Tortuous way? I'm sorry, getting jiggy with someone requires a helluva lot of steps, each of which open the door to stopping. It's not like tripping over your feet, or indeed a harsh word in anger(though apparently...). You meet someone, you talk about yourselves and each other to some degree, you decide to flirt, you decide to swap spits, you decide to feel them up, you decide to find somewhere more private, you decide to remove clothing, you decide to feel them up more, you decide to jam your organs of generation together until resolution, you decide to hide it. That's just the once, repeated assignations under the cloak of secrecy require even more decisions. At each step of the way you make a clear choice, unless you're so halfwitted decision making is not a strong suit, or reckon some magical thinking romance/going with the flow is in play. Mostly it's just the comforting lies people can often be err to as a way to rewrite their own narrative.

I never judge because I know people on both sides and the pain all involved experienced.

TBH I'm well leery of the non judgement thing so popular of late. We make value judgements all the time. It's what humans do. Sharing a group hug to sort it out, or worse navel gazing to the nth degree looking for answers when you don't know the questions and the questions are too "judgemental" in the first place to even ask them any more. For me that's cloth headed thinking. Fine for hippies and bald lads chanting OMMMMM up a Tibetan mountain(who are quite "judgemental" actually), but not exactly practical or workable in the long term.

What is practical is acknowledging and yes judging the screwup. Knowing you screwed up and why and seek to make sure it doesn't happen again. How you, if you're the one at fault, processes and learns from it and moves beyond it is the crux of it. Your partner's take on the whole thing is actually secondary and entirely up to them in the end, and if they were a catalyst for the cheating. The latter rarely goes over well. Victim blaming etc. It nearly always takes two to tango. I certainly know that in the two cases where I was cheated on I dropped the ball in the relationships to some degree anyway. Before I dropped said ball, would either women have cheated? No in one case. Or I'd be very shocked. The other? Meh hard to call, she was a silly cow always looking for validation and never finding it, so would have gone that way sooner or later I reckon. A broken toy emotionally so in the end though painful at the time I suspect a bullet, nay howitzer shell dodged.

And women can absolutely be just as unfaithful as men. It's naive to think otherwise.

+1

For anyone here who has been deceived please don't let that make you hard and cynical. Learn to trust again because life can be lonely behind that wall. It isn't true that most people are untrustworthy. Most people are wonderful and will love and care for you.

Actually, I would say most people are mostly grand, but generally and quite naturally look out for themselves and theirs. If you find yourself in the latter group then game ball, otherwise it's lip service or temporary attention about the best result. And that's fine too. As for trust? Yep trust people, but be aware of dropping the ball on your side and also be aware that trust and love and care are limited resources and rarely renewable. IE yes trust people, but trust that they can and will on occasion act like people do.

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 3:56pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Wow. Just wow :pac:

Then you cap it all off with calling me vindictive but not before you blow yourself out saying how bigger of a person you are.

I have found that anyone who claims not to be judgemental is lying to you and themselves. Usually as an ego trip. The triggered by "nasty words" are a sure sign of delicate egos at play. Very common among the religious and latterly non religious crawthumpers. Of course they miss the obvious irony(not a shock) of being regularly and overtly judgemental of things they have chosen to be judgemental about.

SCOOP 64 · 27-09-2020 4:03pm

Would it depend what age you at time ,maybe if you're in the 30/40 age bracket, you wouldn't think twice about kicking your partner out, but 50 plus, i believe it would be a harder decision to make.

27-09-2020 4:14pm

Wibbs wrote: »

True. There is the "one off" and the longer term thing. Quite different in dynamic. Whatever about moving past a one off, the more sustained sort is Game Over. Respect is out the window pretty much. I'm sure some have worked through such things, often for "the sake of the kids", but wouldn't be for me.

Tortuous way? I'm sorry, getting jiggy with someone requires a helluva lot of steps, each of which open the door to stopping. It's not like tripping over your feet, or indeed a harsh word in anger(though apparently...). You meet someone, you talk about yourselves and each other to some degree, you decide to flirt, you decide to swap spits, you decide to feel them up, you decide to find somewhere more private, you decide to remove clothing, you decide to feel them up more, you decide to jam your organs of generation together until resolution, you decide to hide it. That's just the once, repeated assignations under the cloak of secrecy require even more decisions. At each step of the way you make a clear choice, unless you're so halfwitted decision making is not a strong suit, or reckon some magical thinking romance/going with the flow is in play. Mostly it's just the comforting lies people can often be err to as a way to rewrite their own narrative.
TBH I'm well leery of the non judgement thing so popular of late. We make value judgements all the time. It's what humans do. Sharing a group hug to sort it out, or worse navel gazing to the nth degree looking for answers when you don't know the questions and the questions are too "judgemental" in the first place to even ask them any more. For me that's cloth headed thinking. Fine for hippies and bald lads chanting OMMMMM up a Tibetan mountain(who are quite "judgemental" actually), but not exactly practical or workable in the long term.

I don't judge because I have an insight. If I didn't perhaps I would, I don't know.

We can never know the landscape of another's relationship, the loneliness and hurts that might lie within. The reasons why we do the things we do. There is nothing to excuse deceiving a person, even when they treat you less than you deserve but I think it can sometimes be understood.

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 4:15pm

SCOOP 64 wrote: »

Would it depend what age you at time ,maybe if you're in the 30/40 age bracket, you wouldn't think twice about kicking your partner out, but 50 plus, i believe it would be a harder decision to make.

Depends on what was the cause too. Like in those sexless setups. I mean if I couldn't get it up, or worse had no interest in physical intimacy any more and wasn't willing to try to change then if the other half was chewing the furniture from sexual frustration, yeah I could see and understand why they might play away. I've known of a few such setups down the years and I dunno how they stood it myself.

And contrary to popular belief, or at least in the examples I knew of, the party not into that was just as likely to be the man as the woman. And these weren't older men either. Like guys in their 20's and 30's. After the early honeymoon period they largely shut down the mickey dept. And they came out with the same kinda thing as the women who had shut up sexytown. Things like "is that all you think of me as??" etc.

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 4:29pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't judge because I have an insight. If I didn't perhaps I would, I don't know.

Insight suggests a subjective experience in the subject which is cool, but it is subjective and such things are often if not usually quite self selective and self protective, which is cool too. I've been there too, but soon enough I came to terms with tha subjectivity and the excuses it was was laying at my feet.

We can never know the landscape of another's relationship, the loneliness and hurts that might lie within.

Sure. I'd agree there.

The reasons why we do the things we do.

Well, it would be my humble - and I realise this is not the most popular notion these days - that if I couldn't work out the reasons why I did something then I'd need my head read, or a stern talking to, involving the words "cop on you self involved gobsh1te". Unless someone has a mental disability how in god's name can a grown arsed adult not know why they do something? It's like those who say they don't know how they feel? Da fuq? How disconnected from their own heads(or how far up their own arses) can they be?

For the record and currently: A bit chilly, lap warm from macbook, a threatening peckishness, contented enough in myself, bit distracted too, liking the sun outside the window, though have pangs knowing it's heading into bloody winter, trying not to think about that(too late dammit!!), calm, bit bored, looking forward to something manana, slight itch in my upper left shoulder blade. Marginally horny.

There is nothing to excuse deceiving a person, even when they treat you less than you deserve but I think it can sometimes be understood.

Well there's a lot going on there Diamonds. If someone is being abusive, however mildly then... well a lot of bets are off, though the best course is to suggest they feck off, with a size nine swiftly applied to their arse as required or indicated. Though to be fair for some, the more emotionally dependant type, or the "need to fix this" type that's a lot easier said than done.

Princess Calla · 27-09-2020 5:14pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

That neighbour didn't do anybody any favours. She just told because she didn't want the burden of knowing and keeping it a secret. Sometimes you have to be stronger. I like to think that if the wife/girlfriend of a friend of mine cheated on him I wouldn't go running to him and spill the beans especially if there were children involved.

So you are blaming the neighbour for the sh*tshow that happened after the husbands infidelity?

If my friends knew my partner was having an affair but didn't tell me I wouldn't view them as friends. Yes it would be an extremely hard conversation to have but by staying quiet I'd view them as condoning his behaviour.

The fact that kids are involved shows that the couple are having unprotected sex so by staying quiet the innocent partner is being exposed to a health risk not of their making.

Kylta · 27-09-2020 5:25pm

Princess Calla wrote: »

So you are blaming the neighbour for the sh*tshow that happened after the husbands infidelity?

If my friends knew my partner was having an affair but didn't tell me I wouldn't view them as friends. Yes it would be an extremely hard conversation to have but by staying quiet I'd view them as condoning his behaviour.

The fact that kids are involved shows that the couple are having unprotected sex so by staying quiet the innocent partner is being exposed to a health risk not of their making.

I personally wouldn't tell, what gives me the right to interfere in another persons relationship, friend or not. The other thing is the friend informing might have other reasons for telling about the relationship. Maybe your friend alreadys knows and doesn't choose to do anything about the infidelity. I think the best way to lose a friend is by interfering in their relationship. Thats just my opinion though I could be wrong.

Jimmy Twotimes · 27-09-2020 5:29pm

Had several opportunities to cheat on my ex-gf and declined all. I suppose I did the right thing but on the other had I'll probably never again have a smoking hot 19yo girl trying to seduce me.

Gruffalux · 27-09-2020 5:34pm

Jimmy Twotimes wrote: »

Had several opportunities to cheat on my ex-gf and declined all. I suppose I did the right thing but on the other had I'll probably never have a smoking hot 19yo girl trying to seduce me.

You could have been a two-timing Jimmy.

Wibbs · 27-09-2020 6:17pm

Princess Calla wrote: »

So you are blaming the neighbour for the sh*tshow that happened after the husbands infidelity?

If my friends knew my partner was having an affair but didn't tell me I wouldn't view them as friends. Yes it would be an extremely hard conversation to have but by staying quiet I'd view them as condoning his behaviour.

The fact that kids are involved shows that the couple are having unprotected sex so by staying quiet the innocent partner is being exposed to a health risk not of their making.

True enough P, though and call me selfish in this, it's a major can of worms being opened and too often the bearer of the bad news takes the crap rather than the cheater.

Kylta · 27-09-2020 6:25pm

Wibbs wrote: »

True enough P, though and call me selfish in this, it's a major can of worms being opened and too often the bearer of the bad news takes the crap rather than the cheater.

Am curious why would anybody interfere in another person relstionship?

Princess Calla · 27-09-2020 6:42pm

Wibbs wrote: »

True enough P, though and call me selfish in this, it's a major can of worms being opened and too often the bearer of the bad news takes the crap rather than the cheater.

Oh god yeah a complete nightmare.

However I'd rather tell my friend, even at the expense of our relationship, and keep my integrity.

I couldn't sit chatting about future holidays, more children etc etc knowing that he's balls deep in someone else behind her back.

Princess Calla · 27-09-2020 6:47pm

Kylta wrote: »

Am curious why would anybody interfere in another person relstionship?

Maybe because you don't want to see someone you care about being made a fool of.

Would you not rather your friend being with someone who treats them well rather than someone who is betraying them.

Personally I would hate to find out that for one he was cheating and for two everyone knew about it feeling sorry for me or thinking I'm an eejit while no one said a thing. That's a double betrayal.

IAMAMORON · 27-09-2020 8:34pm

I have known or witnessed 2 indiscretions on a close friend and I have highly suspected in several other instances ( my suspicions were always spot on btw ).

However if you elect to let your pal know etc, be prepared for it to be a problem and for it to hinder your relationship with your friend. This will probably spark lots of posts saying, "no no no they need to know" etc., but believe me it is rarely that simple. Anyone stating it is a simple process to tell a friend something is up..... has probably never done it. You certainly will not be thanked for it, at the time anyways.

Never ever ever ever ever disclose a hunch or a gut feeling about indiscretions, even if you are very certain. You get that type of crap wrong and not only will you lose a friend but you will also get a rep for being meddling chunt as well. you don't want that.

99/100 if your friend is still in love with their unfaithful partner they will not want you pointing out the obvious. Regrettably your honesty and willingness to "help" a friend will get spat back at you, thread carefully, there is no happy ending when you are delivering bad news, that is all you are doing.

McGinniesta · 27-09-2020 8:46pm

Kylta wrote: »

If your husband/wife/partner was unfaithful to you
Would you forgive them?
Maybe their are kids, mortagages etc involved?
Would you be unforgiving with them?
Would you pack up their gear and kick them out.

If you have lost trust in your spouse then your marriage is officially over.

If my spouse cheated on me she'd be out on the street in a heartbeat and she wouldn't get the steam off my sh1t without a fight.

Kylta · 27-09-2020 9:12pm

Princess Calla wrote: »

Maybe because you don't want to see someone you care about being made a fool of.

Would you not rather your friend being with someone who treats them well rather than someone who is betraying them.

Personally I would hate to find out that for one he was cheating and for two everyone knew about it feeling sorry for me or thinking I'm an eejit while no one said a thing. That's a double betrayal.

You can care about your friends thats one thing but unless a friend asks you do you know anything(maybe a rumour) thats one thing. But nobody has the given right to interfere in a relationship unless their is (domestic abuse) going on. A true friend in my opinion is the friend thats their when the relationship disintegrates. Not to destroyed the relationship with revelations.

JoChervil · 27-09-2020 10:44pm

Kylta wrote: »

You can care about your friends thats one thing but unless a friend asks you do you know anything(maybe a rumour) thats one thing. But nobody has the given right to interfere in a relationship unless their is (domestic abuse) going on. A true friend in my opinion is the friend thats their when the relationship disintegrates. Not to destroyed the relationship with revelations.

I totally agree. It amazes me how people think that cheated wife doesn't know. They usually know deep down but they are choosing not to see signs. But when they get stronger and ready to face it, so then you can tell them. I don't appreciate unsolicited information in any matter, especially unsolicited advice...

Ladygoodman1 · 27-09-2020 10:47pm

I think id make him suffer a bit before id kick him out. Prob not pc to say. I wouldnt hand him over easy. Id like other woman to know she was 2nd choice in the end before i booted his ass out. Just being honest.

JoChervil · 27-09-2020 10:48pm

As far as original post is concerned hurting people hurt others and themselves BTW. Some cheat, some call names...

SnowyMay · 27-09-2020 10:56pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Depends on the audience it seems. If I were to called a whoremaster and if it was accurate it would expose me to question my behavior. As indeed it did. If I wasn't? Big whoop. Like I say the barbs that sting have the ring of truth to them, or should.

Play stupid games; win stupid prizes. Calling a woman a whore is a despicable thing to do. You come from this with an attitude born of your own experience, and I come with an attitude born of mine. So we do differ. I, on the one hand, wouldn't say something like this about a group of people. And to infer that this is insulting because it had some truth in it is pretty low Wibbs.

Wibbs wrote: »

And this is where we fundamentally differ. And again back to sticks and stones. A spoken word insult can come from a moment of madness too and the damage is all in the head of the insulted. An action, rather a series of discrete actions that leads to sexual involvement with someone other than your partner is far more involved and far more "planned" with many more steps before it happens. Unless someone works on the principle of it "just happened". Like this:

Wibbs wrote: »

Put it another way S, I could insult you call you a "whore" right now on this thread and all it took were a few keystrokes. We can't exchange illicit texts, meet up for "drinks" and do the beast with two backs, behind your partner's back. Cheating requires far more intent than speaking a word.

I hope you won't. Why would you? That would be the action of somebody who has issues.

Let's face it - I have already said that I don't cheat, and I haven't been cheated on - to my knowledge - and I think it's a wrong thing to do, but, I would bet you your farm that more people have been cheated on than have had such hateful insults thrown at them. Sex is a particularly nice part of life, and, if, for reasons like five years without it, or in physical or emotional abuse, or feeling unloved, some people will have that "moment of madness"(TM), or some need to feel loved. It can happen because people are needing something else - whereas calling somebody a really nasty name is just designed to hurt.

Wibbs wrote: »

Well, exactly and hence it's easier to be whore than a whoremaster. I don't see the confusion. It's not a value judgement on either sex, merely a reflection of the realities. Just like noting that there are significantly more women prostitutes servicing men than male gigolos servicing women. There are fundamental gender differences at play here. In essence eggs are more precious and in shorter supply than sperm.

There is no confusion here. The reason guys can't get laid every day of the week is because women don't offer it up so easily.

Your original point was that women were in control of "access". This is not a case of women holding all of the cards; they just don't choose to sleep with anything that moves. This is the reason why women prostitutes are more popular than male - the demand is there.

I am relatively done with this argument. I see that you have gone on to describe women as often being ditzy, Eat Pray Love Types where they go on holidays and cheat, and you believe they block whatever incident from their minds.

I'm sorry that you had whatever experiences that you had to make you think this way about women. We are not so bad when you get to know us. Maybe you were just unlucky.

Princess Calla · 27-09-2020 11:47pm

Kylta wrote: »

You can care about your friends thats one thing but unless a friend asks you do you know anything(maybe a rumour) thats one thing. But nobody has the given right to interfere in a relationship unless their is (domestic abuse) going on. A true friend in my opinion is the friend thats their when the relationship disintegrates. Not to destroyed the relationship with revelations.

So you think raising a hand and hitting a spouse is alot worse than jumping into bed with another?

Both are abuse, emotional scars can leave a much bigger scar that physical ones. That's not even taking into consideration the risk of contracting stds /stis and passing them on to the innocent partner.

Or maybe fathering a child, secretly supporting the child .... Or if its the wife getting pregnant and having the husband raise the child as their own.

The messenger isn't the person that destroyed the relationship.

Kylta · 28-09-2020 12:05am

Princess Calla wrote: »

So you think raising a hand and hitting a spouse is alot worse than jumping into bed with another?

Both are abuse, emotional scars can leave a much bigger scar that physical ones. That's not even taking into consideration the risk of contracting stds /stis and passing them on to the innocent partner.

Or maybe fathering a child, secretly supporting the child .... Or if its the wife getting pregnant and having the husband raise the child as their own.

The messenger isn't the person that destroyed the relationship.

The messenger might not be the one who destroyed the relationship, but the messenger is pouring petrol on the fire.
Friendships and relationships are two different things. And who is to say that the friend has not got a particular reason for informing on the adultery. I would say as a friend you could say it sarcastically to the adulterer that you know what there at and you don't want your friend treated like fool, (and that could be ropey too because you also need proof). I've friends and I'd never get involved in relationship issues unless they ask me.

ShatterAlan · 28-09-2020 12:58am

Deleted User wrote: »

Wibbs, what's your honest opinion on this scenario...a group of say 30 men aged 30 to 65 ish go on a weekend away abroad for a stag/ event ,a cross section from all walks of life, a similar group of women do the same thing, do you think a similar % of cheating would go on in both groups, be honest?&#55357;&#56859;

You'd be surprised how many women play away especially on hen nights abroad. I was in a bar in Amsterdam and a hen party landed into the place. They were well oiled. The bride to be had sex with the barman in the toilets. On another occasion I got chatting to two girls from Essex. Just friendly banter. I asked them "So do you have boyfriends back home?" and one replied "yeah, but we'd make an exception for you."

ShatterAlan · 28-09-2020 1:59am

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Where to begin?
You split hairs with me as to what's worse in life. That's the first sign of an arsehole to be honest.

You come to the conclusion after a few sentences from me that I am "bitter" - so either one of two things are happening right now you have some amazing ability in life to read people through and through from a few lines posted on an internet website or you're up your own arse and think you are clever. Calling someone names to make your opinion more valid. If it's the former please join the police force as they could use some awesome detectives ... But it's not really the former is it

Then you go on to say how calling someone a whore or junkie is wrong but calling someone a bastard or scumbag is perfectly acceptable.

Wow. Just wow :pac:

Then you cap it all off with calling me vindictive but not before you blow yourself out saying how bigger of a person you are.

I am in awe of your post mate. But I must ask how do you fit your head up your own arse? Do you have to remove some ribs? :pac:

I never once called you any names and certainly not to make my opinion more "valid".

You, on the contrary, allude to me being an arsehole and that I have my head up my arse.

Is that to make your opinion more valid?

Gremlinertia · 28-09-2020 2:16am

Mod Note - quit it with the personal digs

ShatterAlan · 28-09-2020 2:42am

Princess Calla wrote: »

So you are blaming the neighbour for the sh*tshow that happened after the husbands infidelity?

If my friends knew my partner was having an affair but didn't tell me I wouldn't view them as friends. Yes it would be an extremely hard conversation to have but by staying quiet I'd view them as condoning his behaviour.

The fact that kids are involved shows that the couple are having unprotected sex so by staying quiet the innocent partner is being exposed to a health risk not of their making.

What are you on about?

The children are from the marriage. Where does unprotected sex with the mistress and a health risk come into your head?

And I'm not blaming the neighbour for the sh*tshow. I said the neighbour didn't help things at all by exposing the affair. The OP said that the husband was a decent guy in general. The wife booted him out and now she's living in poverty and so are the kids. He's tried for years to work things out but she's not having any of it. She's now an emotional basket case catting around on Tinder and generally miserable. It sounds to me like she might have been a bit unstable even prior to the knowledge of the infidelity yet the husband was somehow taking care of his wife and his children.

How do you know if it was an ongoing sordid affair or maybe just a once off or a fling with an old flame from years gone by because he was lonely or missing something?

Most affairs burn themselves out. They die a natural death. Very few go on ad infinitum and very few result in the cheaters ending up together and living happily ever after.

The husband could very easily have had a tryst and then gotten over it and carried his guilt with him but safe in the knowledge that his family were ok. The neighbour could have very easily kept her mouth shut or approached the husband and said "I know what your up to mister. End it!". Better still she could have been really mature and diplomatic and asked for a meeting with him in confidence to discuss what was happening and why. But you see that's difficult. It takes empathy. It takes courage. It takes understanding and facing up to uncomfortable truths. She didn't want the burden of having a secret so she took the easy way out and offloaded it.

Answer me this. If your choices were:

A. Your friend's life will be destroyed if you expose the affair.

B. Your friend will live happily ever after oblivious to the affair if you keep your mouth shut even if it means you have to carry that secret with you.

Which would you choose? A true friend would take option B. It takes iron will to shoulder that burden so as to protect a friend.

Sometimes doing what's perceived as "the right thing" backfires and doesn't yield the best results. But of course people will simply dust off their hands and say "Well he shouldn't have cheated. Not my fault now that all their lives are ruined."

ShatterAlan · 28-09-2020 2:50am

Princess Calla wrote: »

So you are blaming the neighbour for the sh*tshow that happened after the husbands infidelity?

If my friends knew my partner was having an affair but didn't tell me I wouldn't view them as friends. Yes it would be an extremely hard conversation to have but by staying quiet I'd view them as condoning his behaviour.

The fact that kids are involved shows that the couple are having unprotected sex so by staying quiet the innocent partner is being exposed to a health risk not of their making.

And what if they said that they loved you so much that they were willing to do anything to protect you from pain even if that meant going to bed every night with a secret gnawing at their soul? And why would you think that that would be condoning the affair?

ShatterAlan · 28-09-2020 2:57am

Princess Calla wrote: »

Oh god yeah a complete nightmare.

However I'd rather tell my friend, even at the expense of our relationship, and keep my integrity.

I couldn't sit chatting about future holidays, more children etc etc knowing that he's balls deep in someone else behind her back.

Well here's another one for you.

Let's just say you got drunk and snogged your friend's OH. Would you then go running to her and say "Listen, I've got something to confess. I shifted your fella last week. I'm just telling you to maintain my integrity."?

ShatterAlan · 28-09-2020 3:10am

Princess Calla wrote: »

So you think raising a hand and hitting a spouse is alot worse than jumping into bed with another?

Both are abuse, emotional scars can leave a much bigger scar that physical ones. That's not even taking into consideration the risk of contracting stds /stis and passing them on to the innocent partner.

Or maybe fathering a child, secretly supporting the child .... Or if its the wife getting pregnant and having the husband raise the child as their own.

The messenger isn't the person that destroyed the relationship.

Of course hitting one's wife is a lot worse. And do you think that a wife being punched only leaves a black eye that will be gone in a couple of weeks. The emotional scars from spousal abuse far outweigh those of infidelity. Whilst being cheated on she will feel betrayed. Being beaten she will feel nothing but terror all her waking hours.

IAMAMORON · 28-09-2020 9:57am

Agreed on women being as bad as men when it comes to infidelity, in particular on short term weekend trips like Hens, Stags etc. Females in longer term relationships are the most promiscuous in my experience. They are looking for no strings attached sex more often than not. On my experience on Stags it is actually the married lads who are the first to hit the brothels and stay up all night. It is like they are Gorillas left out of their cage for 48 hours, shocking stuff really.

What I think happens is that after the Honeymoon period is through ( say 6-12 mths ) of a relationship and once the " love consolidation" is through ( 1yr-4ys) you are into the " 7 year itch" territory. I think this is where most of the shenanigans kicks in.

Both partners get bored of the Status Quo and start looking around for a bit of strange, it happens. This is obviously worse if there are kids involved.

I do also think that once the sex itch has been scratched that these infidels

are more likely to go lovingly back to their partners. They still love them.

Wibbs · 28-09-2020 9:57am

SnowyMay wrote: »

Play stupid games; win stupid prizes. Calling a woman a whore is a despicable thing to do. You come from this with an attitude born of your own experience, and I come with an attitude born of mine. So we do differ. I, on the one hand, wouldn't say something like this about a group of people. And to infer that this is insulting because it had some truth in it is pretty low Wibbs.

Nope, my point is and stands that insults sting when someone thinks they have some truth to them. It doesn't necessarily mean they do, merely that the person thinks they do. You're illustrating it quite well actually.

I hope you won't. Why would you? That would be the action of somebody who has issues.

"Issues". Yep, the lazy catchall for when argument fails. It was by way of illustration of the difference between a name calling and actually cheating on someone. I beggars belief, well mine anyway, that being called a name would wind someone up more than being actually betrayed emotionally and physically. Clearly some didn't pick up on the sense behind the school yard sticks and stones trope.

Let's face it - I have already said that I don't cheat, and I haven't been cheated on - to my knowledge - and I think it's a wrong thing to do, but, I would bet you your farm that more people have been cheated on than have had such hateful insults thrown at them.

Christ you're easily offended and oddly with it. Again a partner calling me say as aonce off in a moment of madness and high emotion [insert Worst Insult. Ever!] compared to going off and shagging someone else is chalk and cheese and would be to most people. Given you've not been cheated upon nor cheated yourself, you're hardly in a position to quantify the difference in hurt and impact. Though how you can fail to imagine the obvious differences in impact again beggars belief.

Sex is a particularly nice part of life, and, if, for reasons like five years without it, or in physical or emotional abuse, or feeling unloved, some people will have that "moment of madness"(TM), or some need to feel loved. It can happen because people are needing something else - whereas calling somebody a really nasty name is just designed to hurt.

Well there's a lot to untangle there. Reasons to cheat. Cool. But again a myriad of decisions are in play to get to that point. Decisions that are consciously made at each step in the knowledge that they're about to break a major trust. But apparently a "nasty name" blurted in anger is worse. Okaaay.

There is no confusion here. The reason guys can't get laid every day of the week is because women don't offer it up so easily.

Your original point was that women were in control of "access". This is not a case of women holding all of the cards; they just don't choose to sleep with anything that moves. This is the reason why women prostitutes are more popular than male - the demand is there.

Eh... that's what my point was. Join the dots. Why don't women generally not "sleep with anything that moves"?

I am relatively done with this argument. I see that you have gone on to describe women as often being ditzy, Eat Pray Love Types where they go on holidays and cheat, and you believe they block whatever incident from their minds.

I'm sorry that you had whatever experiences that you had to make you think this way about women. We are not so bad when you get to know us. Maybe you were just unlucky.

More projection. You read some women are morons, therefore all women are morons. Some leap there Ted. I'm beginning to see how words may fire you up. 1) I denoted a particular type of woman. I did not say all women, but keep going with the oul projection. 2) in the very post that wound you up over a nasty word and as a counter to previous posters who were of a mindset that a lot of people cheat(though more men, which is nonsense), I stated that there are plenty of women(and men) who aren't whores. Most indeed. And yes there are plenty of ditzy types, men and women. The average IQ is 100, this means that about half of people run below that number. That's before we get to emotional intelligence.

As for my experiences with women? The majority have been positive, some very positive, with the occasional sprinkling of the ditzy, neurotic and untrustworthy. So basically my experience with people in general. Unless you think women by virtue of their sex are somehow of a hive mind of general purity and fantasticness(should be a word) and not err to the human condition.

Wibbs · 28-09-2020 10:02am

ShatterAlan wrote: »

Well here's another one for you.

Let's just say you got drunk and snogged your friend's OH. Would you then go running to her and say "Listen, I've got something to confess. I shifted your fella last week. I'm just telling you to maintain my integrity."?

I do take your point S, though in the above scenario if I ended up snogging a mate's better three quarters I'd be pretty sure I would tell them and accept the consequences of that. I'd find it bloody hard to live with myself for doing it in the first place and not letting them know. Maybe if it actually happened I might not? I dunno, maybe. Though maybe you're right, that I'd be selfishly telling them to assuage my guilt more than as a kindness to them and their relationship.

Forgiving/Unforgiving

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