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Anyone in Ireland that can speak Irish only?
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Insect Overlord wrote: »Go back to the early part of this thread and look for references to "culture". Nobody mentioned it until you came along. It literally isn't part of the topic at all until you start ranting about it.
You created the culture debate out of thin air. It's a straw man argument and a total non sequitur in the context of this thread. Blaming it on Irish speakers is simply a lie, a blatant fabrication on your part alone.
Language is a method of communication. It is a code through which messages and meanings are passed on from one person or group to another. Some parts of a culture depend on language for historical context. One such example is the lore of placenames. A tradition becomes meaningless when nobody can remember where it came from. When a language is lost, that knowledge is also lost, and therefore there is a cultural impact on the surviving community.
That's not true actually. One of the first comments I replied to in this thread, was someone talking about how we are some sort of strange anomaly among other countries in the EU, because we don't seem to "self-identify" with the Irish language the way other countries do with their traditional national tongue - which is basically just one of many interchangeable phrases used to describe what I chose to refer to as "cultural identity"....
And their comment was not in response to any contribution I made in this thread, and completely unprompted by me.
Whenever you question the value or status of the Irish language in society, you are invariably always confronted with how critically important it is for the survival of our "culture" "identity" "Irish-ness"... (Choose whichever terminology you wish - they essentially all mean the same basic thing).
But almost no-one ever really questions the validity of these claims, or asks for some sort of compelling evidence to back up these assertions.
Even you have made a very weak attempt there, to support the idea that the language has strong cultural importance. I'm really hoping that's not your strongest effort? :rolleyes:
It's actually quite insulting to the rest of the country, to claim that speaking Irish is vitally important to our sense of Irish-ness or cultural identity... Apart from the fact that it is clearly not true, and there is no legitimate evidence to back it up... but it's also a very arrogant premise.
If you were to buy into these claims, then apparently only the tiny % of people who speak the language fluently on a daily basis in this country, can be truly considered to be authentic Irish people... with a strong connection to their history and culture. They are the sole gatekeepers to what it really means to be Irish!
It's frankly nonsense.
There are millions of people in this country who do not speak Irish fluently or at all, and yet have a very strong connection to their culture and history... or their "Irishness"... apart from a few token words here and there, the Irish language actually plays very little part in how most people "self-identify" their sense of Irishness. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.Snow Garden wrote: »Sinn Fein brought down Stormont because of the Irish language. Mindless really.
I think the Irish language is used as a segregation tool in this country too.
Way too much money spent propping it and translating EU documents that nobody will ever read but that always changes during a recession.
You won't find me agreeing with unionists on very much tbh... many of them tend to be a hugely stubborn lot overall, who don't like to compromise very much on anything really.
However, I find myself agreeing with their stance on the Irish language up north.
How can you justify basically replicating many of the measures that were brought in down here, just to placate a tiny subsection of society that wants have a minority language given equal status with English - when every single one of them is fluent in English?
Look at the state of their economy up there... even just from a financial perspective, how can you justify it?
Speaking Irish is basically just a glorified hobby... and that is the status it should be given in society. Even in this country, 50K people actively speaking it on a daily basis does not justify spending millions of taxpayers money to prop it up and keep it alive...
There's probably more people that go out and play a round of golf at the weekend, than go out and converse fluently in the Irish language... it's a glorified hobby.
I've no problem with those who love the language and enjoy speaking it... but there is no logical reason why it should be afforded such huge national importance/status and given such huge taxpayer funding. (or forced on people - by being compulsory in schools etc)0 -
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Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
It's actually quite insulting to the rest of the country, to claim that speaking Irish is vitally important to our sense of Irish-ness or cultural identity... Apart from the fact that it is clearly not true, and there is no legitimate evidence to back it up... but it's also a very arrogant premise.
Look at the state of their economy up there... even just from a financial perspective, how can you justify it?
There's probably more people that go out and play a round of golf at the weekend, than go out and converse fluently in the Irish language... it's a glorified hobby.
Just editing down your post to your key arguments which all have a utilitarian basis. If you want to raid cultural discussions of their substance and come up with facile comparisons or financial metrics that's your right. All three arguments could be applied to any conservation movement, because they are not driven by utilitarian arguments and yet most of us believe that diversity is a good thing, whether that's in the environmental or cultural sphere.there is no logical reason why it should be afforded such huge national importance/status
There is no utilitarian or economic argument perhaps, but that does not mean there is no logical or valid reason. Preserving the language creates fierce debate here on boards and regularly appears on media, why is that? I mentioned previously that the language is bound up with culture, not that it's the only filter of irish culture, but it is intimately connected with it.
Only yesterday, Imelda May, a part of present day Irish musical and cultural scene, was grieving the language and vowed to improve her ability in it. When was the last time you heard a 'golf widow' grieving? Of course, the state should facilitate this. The Irish question boils down to a conservation and indeed a justice issue, most Irish people are not willing to put a 'price' on that.
Have a read:
Imelda May sparked the conversation by opening up about a sense of grief she felt while watching the Fleadh Cheoil on television....
The singer told how she burst out in tears during a performance from a brother and sister Séamus Ó Flatharta and Caoimhe Ní Fhlatharta, as they performed a duet of the sean-nós song ‘Eileanóir na Rún’ because she didn’t understand what they were saying.
Speaking to Kathryn Thomas, filling in for Ray D’Arcy on RTE Radio One, she said: “I listened to it... please go and listen to it. It floored me, it was so beautiful, this brother and sister.0 -
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Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »That's not true actually. One of the first comments I replied to in this thread, was someone talking about how we are some sort of strange anomaly among other countries in the EU, because we don't seem to "self-identify" with the Irish language the way other countries do with their traditional national tongue - which is basically just one of many interchangeable phrases used to describe what I chose to refer to as "cultural identity"....
Right, let's examine this claim first. This was one of your first contributions to this thread:Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »If they learned Irish first, and speak it with their family, then it is their first language. I'm not sure what way you would define first language.
I could invent my own private language, and use it to speak with just my family members or closest friends... still doesn't make it your first language on this island as English is the only language spoken fluently by everyone.
English is by far the most important language to learn and understand if you want to live in this country, so on that basis it is your first language.
Mistake Number 1. You made up your own definition of "first language". A fallacy of false equivocation.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »In the face of this stark reality, most Irish speakers or enthusiasts are left with far less compelling arguments for promoting the language. There's a lot of talk about it's "cultural" significance... etc
Mistake Number 2. You introduced the argument about "culture" despite the fact that neither Duffy nor anybody else had used the word beforehand in this thread.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »People who think our culture, or a large part of it, hangs on the survival of our dying native tongue... are really quite naive and deluded. But not just that, there is also an inherent arrogance among many of these people too. Those few "elite" who speak it fluently, like to believe that it has greater significance than it actually does...
Mistake Number 3. You made insulting comments about other people. Both an ad hominem attack and a hasty generalisation.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »which is basically just one of many interchangeable phrases used to describe what I chose to refer to as "cultural identity"....
Mistake Number 4. You made up your own definition of cultural identity. Another fallacy of false equivocation.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »Whenever you question the value or status of the Irish language in society, you are invariably always confronted with how critically important it is for the survival of our "culture" "identity" "Irish-ness"... (Choose whichever terminology you wish - they essentially all mean the same basic thing).
But almost no-one ever really questions the validity of these claims, or asks for some sort of compelling evidence to back up these assertions.
As we proved above, nobody made these claims. You introduced them in response to a very different claim.
Therefore, Mistake Number 5. The classic Straw Man argument.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »If you were to buy into these claims, then apparently only the tiny % of people who speak the language fluently on a daily basis in this country, can be truly considered to be authentic Irish people... with a strong connection to their history and culture.
Mistake Number 6. Setting up your position as a riposte to a "No True Scotsman" argument that had never been posited in the first place.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »Look at the state of their economy up there... even just from a financial perspective, how can you justify it?
Mistake Number 7. A red herring. Arguing from the point of view of one potential consequence (in this case a financial one) is simply not sufficient.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »Speaking Irish is basically just a glorified hobby... and that is the status it should be given in society. Even in this country, 50K people actively speaking it on a daily basis does not justify spending millions of taxpayers money to prop it up and keep it alive...
There's probably more people that go out and play a round of golf at the weekend, than go out and converse fluently in the Irish language... it's a glorified hobby.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »The Irish language should be an interesting hobby that people take up, like stamp collecting or bird watching...
Mistake Number 8. Argumentum ad nauseam. Repetition is an effective way to make people give up, but needling one's interlocutors to the point of frustration is not the same as winning an argument.0 -
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And then of course there's this.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »This is a thread about the Irish language, and I have been giving my opinions in reply to various comments within this thread. Which I am perfectly entitled to do.
You don't like my opinions... tough sh!t.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »I gave very valid opposing views, to comments posted in this thread. Which I am entitled to do.
If you're insulted by my opinions, that is unfortunate... but there was nothing overtly insulting about my remarks. They are just simply different views to your own on the subject.
Show me the rule, that says every comment in this thread is required to be in favour of the Irish language? Because that is what some of you are choosing to be butthurt about...Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »I am entitled to reply to comments in this thread, and give my opinions... you are choosing to interpret that as a direct attack on YOU... which it most definitely is NOT. That is how you are choosing to interpret my remarks - but your interpretation is incorrect.
My comments are general observations about different aspects of the language - I have not "accosted" any individual choosing to speak the language.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »I do consider it a dead/dying language... that's my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
The difference between me, and some of you guys... is that some of you guys are obsessed with language... where as I feel more passionately about communication.
And there can be quite a bit of difference between those two things.
There is a grotesque irony in claims of "arrogance" from one who insists so much on their own sense of entitlement.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but they also have a responsibility to consider the flaws in it when presented with logical alternatives.Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »My comments are general observations about different aspects of the language - I have not "accosted" any individual choosing to speak the language.
This is technically true, but only in the sense that you insulted everyone who speaks the language with terms like "tough sh!t", "butthurt", "arrogant", "naive", "obsessed", and "deluded". That's an impressive amount of insults for one man in one thread.0 -
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Upforthematch wrote: »Just editing down your post to your key arguments which all have a utilitarian basis. If you want to raid cultural discussions of their substance and come up with facile comparisons or financial metrics that's your right. All three arguments could be applied to any conservation movement, because they are not driven by utilitarian arguments and yet most of us believe that diversity is a good thing, whether that's in the environmental or cultural sphere.
There is no utilitarian or economic argument perhaps, but that does not mean there is no logical or valid reason. Preserving the language creates fierce debate here on boards and regularly appears on media, why is that? I mentioned previously that the language is bound up with culture, not that it's the only filter of irish culture, but it is intimately connected with it.
Only yesterday, Imelda May, a part of present day Irish musical and cultural scene, was grieving the language and vowed to improve her ability in it. When was the last time you heard a 'golf widow' grieving? Of course, the state should facilitate this. The Irish question boils down to a conservation and indeed a justice issue, most Irish people are not willing to put a 'price' on that.
Have a read:
Imelda May sparked the conversation by opening up about a sense of grief she felt while watching the Fleadh Cheoil on television....
The singer told how she burst out in tears during a performance from a brother and sister Séamus Ó Flatharta and Caoimhe Ní Fhlatharta, as they performed a duet of the sean-nós song ‘Eileanóir na Rún’ because she didn’t understand what they were saying.
Speaking to Kathryn Thomas, filling in for Ray D’Arcy on RTE Radio One, she said: “I listened to it... please go and listen to it. It floored me, it was so beautiful, this brother and sister.
But the overwhelming reason for maintaining a language, is for it's utilitarian purpose.
Where is the cultural merit in plowing obscene amounts of money into the Irish language?
If a group of tourists travel to the west of Ireland, and they want to learn more about Irish culture, history and traditions... what language are you going to use to converse with those people? Are you going to refuse to speak English to them?
So even in that cultural context, when you are attempting to give someone a deeper understanding of our history and traditions... English is still the most important language that you need to get those things across to people. Not Irish!
You may throw in a few token Irish words/phrase... but that's it. It's just tokenism... The very same as almost everyone else that uses some Irish outside of daily use in the Gaeltacht... Tokenism. Wrapped up in misguided ideals of patriotism/national pride.
Learning a language on it's own doesn't give you a greater appreciation of that culture. Which is why I argue that speaking Irish doesn't make you any more Irish, or give you a deeper understanding of your "Irishness"... Language is a tool for communication - through that communication is how you gain an appreciation for a particular culture.
So for example, if I wanted to immerse myself in say French culture... it would make logical sense for me to learn some French. Because it's the most widely spoken language across France, and many French people would actually refuse to speak English to me... so I might struggle to get a true authentic experience of France or deep understanding of French culture without learning to communicate in French!
But learning the French language in and of itself, is not what makes me more culturally aware or connected to that country... it's the ability to effectively communicate with more people!
The same argument cannot really be made for something like Irish, because 96% of our country speaks English as their preferred language of daily communication... and even the remaining 4% that prefer Irish as their 1st language, are all completely fluent in English and do not refuse to speak English when tourists travel into their region!
I have travelled all over this country, including the gaeltacht areas... I have completely immersed myself in those regions and soaked up lots of knowledge... but I never required Irish in order to gain any of that understanding. Everyone I encountered was perfectly happy to speak English with me!
If Irish was essential to my ability to connect with my country and its culture, history and traditions... how did I manage to to accomplish this without learning any Irish?Another issue with his tone is the deliberate and repeated claim that people "choose" to learn Irish, this is egregious.
The Irish speaking community have Irish as their first language and "choose" to learn English.
There may be a point in the future were they choose a second language more relevant to our society in the next generation such as German or Spainish, instead of English.
Yes, but you did choose to learn English didn't you!
Because despite your emotional attachment to Irish, you do still have a logical and rational part to your brain... you know it would be foolish from a practical point of view, to not learn a language spoken by 96% of the nation as their preferred language of daily communication.
That is part of the problem when attempting to have a logical and rational discussion about the Irish language in this country... too many of you guys do not argue using logic or sound reasoning... it's mostly just emotional arguments.
According to many Irish language enthusiasts, Irish is just as important as English... despite English being spoken by a far greater number of people on this Island and everywhere else... but that criteria doesn't give it greater importance, right?
And yet, when considering what language you might choose to learn instead of English as a 2nd language... you unconsciously picked German and Spanish... two languages spoken by tens of millions of people! (In the case of Spanish, maybe even hundreds of millions)
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think there are roughly 24 officially recognised languages in the European Union... ?
So you guys believe in the idea of multilingualism, right? But a no one language is more important than another based on how many people speak that language or how many regions of the world it's spoken in, right?
So let's say my goal is to become multilingual... what languages would you advise me to learn? And what would be your criteria for choosing those particular languages?
Why learn say, German/Spanish/French/Italian and Portuguese.... when I could learn Latvian/Hungarian/Finnish/Estonian and Maltese ??
Irish is just as important as English, right? So Latvian or Estonian is just as important as German or Spanish, right? :rolleyes:
I am simply applying the flawed logic used by people promoting and defending the Irish language... And when applied in a wider context, you can clearly see how ridiculous those claims are.
You cannot make an argument for learning Irish as a tool for mass communication... or even regional communication, as every Irish person is fluent in English - and quite happy to speak it with anyone who arrives on our shores.
You could actually make an argument for some of those other regional languages, because some of those countries actually do have widespread use of their mother tongue... and their English isn't always fluent.
And as I've already explained, Irish is not essential for anyone wishing to fully immerse themselves in our culture or learn about our history and traditions... You only need a decent fluency in English to achieve that objective.
Suggesting that all languages have equal importance, is frankly nonsensical... and if you really believed this, and believed in multilingualism... then why stop at learning 5 languages? If all languages have equal importance, why not learn all 24 official languages of the European Union?
When I suggested a very practical idea of one universal language... many of you laughed at me.
Yet if we take your multilingualism ideals to their extreme - and give equal value and importance to every unique language... as is suggested with the Irish language... then all Europeans should aim to master 24 languages?
And there is no reason for say a French person, for example, to master English before they master Irish... because Irish is just as important as English, right?
See this is what happens when you are emotionally attached to a language... you don't think logically...
I'm not emotionally attached to English... it's just a useful tool for mass communication. And for that very same reason, I have no motivation to learn Irish... as it serves no useful purpose for any reason that I would need a language.
The only way you can convince anyone outside of the gaeltacht regions to learn Irish, is to appeal to a misguided sense of patriotism/national pride... that speaking Irish will make them feel "more Irish"... which is a lie, but a small % of people will swallow that particular lie....
Most people will not however... hence why there is so much apathy towards the language. It's not hatred towards our culture or history... just simple pragmatism and common sense. 0 -
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I think Peig's story is amazing for the culture and history, what a hard life, but I always thought it should be have been on the 1st year university syllabus. Grammatically it was too difficult for secondary school.
...but back in the 70s it was boring as hell, like really boring for secondary school kids, in the colourful world of glam rock & Raleigh Choppers nobody had any interest in an old woman on an island speaking in Irish ... add to that the threat of corporal punishment if you couldn't translate, and it all adds up to a depressing memory
Not the best way to ingratiate the old language to the younger generation.0 -
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Hamsterchops wrote: »...but back in the 70s it was boring as hell, like really boring for secondary school kids, in the colourful world of glam rock & Raleigh Choppers nobody had any interest in an old woman on an island speaking in Irish ... add to that the threat of corporal punishment if you couldn't translate, and it all adds up to a depressing memory
Not the best way to ingratiate the old language to the younger generation.
maybe if they re-wrote it and spiced it up a bit, have Peig go off to Santa Barbara and become a star in the adult entertainment industry or something similar0 -
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I have in previous posts in the thread.Ok. We get that, thanks.
Have you anything to say about the subject matter of the thread?
I would be rehashing i think at this stage.
One interesting thing.
I lived in spain for a while. And in catalonia ....you would find people who didn't speak spanish ..it was rare but in a language where 10 million speakers ...6 million of which live in catalonia itself ..it happens. But it was unknown to find a catalan who didn't speak another language besides catalan ..they might speak french etc rather than spanish.0 -
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Of course.bobbyy gee wrote: »does Latin count instead of english
In fact it was the case that a lot of Irish speakers could speak latin ..but not english at one point ..some far distant point in history tho ..i think anyway..0 -
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Well the 2016 census indicates that 73000 people speak irish daily out of the total irish population.
111,000 roughly who speak it weekly.A total of 63,664 persons (aged 3 or over) or 66.3 per cent of persons in the Gaeltacht areas said that they could speak Irish in 2016. That is 66% of the gaeltacht
I don't count people outside of the gaeltacht who say they speak it less than weekly ...simply they don't REALLY speak it regularly enough.
In reality that makes it 2% of the population. I think a lot of Irish speakers might be older or not be fluent enough to use an ATM in Irish. So ..i will double the 1%.
Also .... https://www.thejournal.ie/irish-language-bank-3570505-Aug2017/
When Irish was an Option for Atms ...less than 1% of customers used it.
Obv not all people particularly older people would use ATMS as ....well they just are not used to them.
So 2% ..might be about right.
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Hotblack Desiato wrote: »Press an extra button causing delay at an ATM where people may be fearful of mugging, because less than 1% of users need to impose that choice upon everyone else.
There you have it, folks. You Gaeilgeoiri have blood on your hands
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If you were intending to respond to post 236 you are missing the point in quoting 2%.
My question relates to this, as posted: "From the data, second language (L2) speakers can be calculated by looking at the difference between native and total speakers, as a proportion of the total. For example, 66% of English speakers learned it as a second language."
The question is not what percentage of the total population speaks Irish as L2, but what percentage of all Irish speakers are L2 speakers. All those who are every day speakers are not necessarily L1 speakers. I appreciate that it may be very difficult if not impossible to divine this information but maybe it is capable of an educated guess.
4% of our tiny population speaks the language as their daily method of communication.
This is why I quite often argue, that the Irish language is not actually particularly important either as a tool for mass communication or as a tool for promoting Irish culture/heritage.
Because so few people can/do speak the language on a daily basis, if you wanted to allocate funds for promoting Irish culture/history/heritage (call it what you will)... it actually doesn't make much sense to produce these things in the Irish language.
English is actually the most practical and sensible language to use when promoting Irish culture, as it gives you the best possible chance of reaching the largest audience - particularly with tourism etc. And yet the fanatical gaeilgeoir types ignore this logic when attempting to promote Irish culture.
You could pick many examples, but let's take comedy as one example... (it is classified under the art and culture sector btw)
Let's say you produced Father Ted as an Irish language show, instead of English.... Which is not a particularly crazy idea, as the show was written and produced by two Irish writers and set on a fictional Island off the west coast... so would have been ideal as an Irish language show.
That show has millions of fans around the world, including people like Steven Spielberg, Jim Carrey, Steve Martin... (Maurice Gibb of the Bee Gees was even buried with a DVD box set of the show!) :pac:
But if you produced that show in Irish, you would have denied millions of these people the chance to enjoy a great example of Irish humour. And yet, producing the show in English doesn't stop any Irish language enthusiasts from enjoying it... because, as we all know, they're all fluent in English!
The argument behind pouring money into art or cultural projects produced in the Irish language, with the principal aim of promoting Irish culture/heritage/history etc, just doesn't make much logical sense... your target audience for the Irish language is always going to be tiny.
English is the best language to use, when promoting Irish culture... but this simple logic is lost on fanatical gaeilgeoir types, who are blinded by their emotional attachment to their ancient language. And it's pretty much pointless trying to have a common sense discussion, with anyone who forms their arguments based on emotion rather than logic! 0 -
Gretas Gonna Get Ya! wrote: »
English is actually the most practical and sensible language to use when promoting Irish culture, as it gives you the best possible chance of reaching the largest audience - particularly with tourism etc. And yet the fanatical gaeilgeoir types ignore this logic when attempting to promote Irish culture.
English is the best language to use, when promoting Irish culture... but this simple logic is lost on fanatical gaeilgeoir types, who are blinded by their emotional attachment to their ancient language. And it's pretty much pointless trying to have a common sense discussion, with anyone who forms their arguments based on emotion rather than logic!
You speak as if translating Irishness into English hasnt been tried before.... despite the facts that any translator will tell you..... There are no direct translations between languages. Why do you think there are hundreds of differing translations of the world's most famous book, the Bible?
Let's focus on your logical reasons and one that's right in front of your nose. Look out the window, whereever you are in Ireland. Find the irish name for location. It's almost certain to be more logical and informative than the English version.
If you go the mountains like I do, it's a lot more helpful for me when I can pickout Céim na mBulóg (pass of the bullocks) or Bruach na Binne (verge of the peak) instead of the mumbo jumbo English names of these beautiful summits in our landscape.... Camenabologue & Broaghnabinnia.
Knowing Irish grounds you.... to our land and to our traditions and it is beautiful.0 -
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