David Irving

daithi1970 · 04-12-2013 8:21pm

.. please dont feed the troll..

pedroeibar1 · 04-12-2013 8:32pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Military historian Sir John Keegan called Irving’s Hitler’s War “certainly among the half dozen most important books.” Keegan admits, however, that Irving is a controversial figure “who currently champions extreme right-wing politics in Europe. Nonetheless, he is a historian of formidable power, having worked in all major German archives, discovered important deposits of papers himself, and interviewed man of the survivors or their families and intimates.”

Keegan moves on to say, “No historian of the second World War can afford to avoid Irving.”[8] Irving’s biography of Goring, says Keegan, is “the most illuminating”[9] among historical books.

In 1977, noted British historian Hugh Trevor-Roper, though questioning Irving’s motives, wrote that “no praise can be too high for his [Irving’s] indefatigable, scholarly industry.”[10] Other historians such as Paul Addison, John Charmley, and Rainer Zitelmann, praised Irving’s work, although they do not like some of the positions he has taken.

Noted British historian A. J. P. Taylor wrote that Irving possessed “an unrivaled industry” and a “good scholarship” when it comes to decoding the archives to see what the records actually say. British historian Paul Addison likewise noted that Irving possesses a “colossus of research,” while at the same time takes issues with him on other matters.

Lipstadt, whose greatest intellectual and historical achievement is to call everyone who fundamentally disagrees with her on aspects of the Holocaust a “Holocaust denier,” tells us in her book History on Trial that John Lukacs and Charles Sydnor challenged Irving on his use of sources and found them inaccurate.

But saying some sources are inaccurate and documenting where the inaccuracies lie is a big problem for Lipstadt. She does not tell us where Lukacs and Sydnor found Irving’s sources as “pretentious twaddle” at all. One is asked to take their words at face value.

Noted economic historian Robert Higgs came to similar conclusions, believing that historical revisionism can stimulate healthy discussion precisely because historians are always looking for more evidence in order to give an accurate or more consistent account of the past.

An easy way to disarm your opponent is to call him names: anti-Semite, Holocaust denier, neo-Nazi, etc. Once she convinced the media that Irving is indeed a “Holocaust denier” and an anti-Semite, then no one would bother to read Irving’s books to examine them for their evidentiary foundations—or lack thereof.

From this excellent article: http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/06/05/the-curious-case-of-david-irving-part-i/

Aaaah I see you have found Veteran’s Today (VT). Really unbiased source,:rolleyes: its senior editor is Gordon Duff, the conspiricist who wrote in that ‘journal’ that the "five dancing Israelis" arrested on 9/11 were part of a "team of Israeli intelligence agents" who remotely guided the planes into the World Trade Center with the knowledge of "top members of America's military." He also wrote that America's security continues to be threatened "by a nefarious and disloyal group of Americans who have dual U.S./Israeli citizenship and who control government organizations and private companies."

Or, in another example of VT’s garbage, its columnist J. Bruce Campbell in May 2011, stated that: The holy gas chamber is a fake. Which makes the entire Holocaust story a fake. You can study it for a day or for a lifetime and your conclusion will be the same. There was never a plan for exterminating Jews and there was never an instrument. As Professor Robert Faurisson has asked for years, ‘Show me a gas chamber. Draw for me a gas chamber.’ It can’t be done because there was never such a thing.

VT is a notoriously anti-Semitic publication, and Faurisson is a Holocaust denier. You expect us to take that rag seriously?

So, next is Keegan, a colourful character, big supporter of Bush in the first Gulf War, non-believer in Clauswitz’s dictum, etc.. You might also like to quote him in more detail, like when he - as a key witness for Irving in his libel trial - said: Like many who seek to shock, he [Irving] may not really believe what he says and probably feels astounded when taken seriously. He has, in short, many of the qualities of the most creative historians.’ Actually, if I used an expert witness I’d prefer them to be on my side, rather than say stuff like that. Nor do I like my historians to be creative, I prefer them to be factual. Is that not their role?

But, wait a minute, this Keegan guy is quite special. Could he be the Keegan who published an essay and in it confused Bulgaria with Romania? Or the Keegan who in a book on the US Civil War said that Lincoln “never learnt the importance of visiting armies in the field, from which he might have discovered a great deal,” apparently unaware that Lincoln visited his armies in the field on eleven occasions, spending 42 days in their camps.... Could he be the Keegan who made the astonishing claim that at the outbreak of the conflict “almost all” of [the U.S. Navy's] “antiquated” warships were sailing vessels and that “none had been launched later than 1822.” When, in fact, 57 of the Navy’s ships had been launched since 1822, and 23 of them were steamships.... Or the Keegan who did not know his own country’s prime minister during the American Civil War and said its PM was Benjamin Disraeli?
You guessed it, Mr. Precision and Accuracy himself, the bold Mr. Keegan. A review of that book in the New York Times is here

You continue to cut and paste selectively, as your post above shows. There is no issue with Irving’s early work, it is later work that has been criticised by historians, as this succinct comment by Peter Hoffman exemplifies:
Mr. Irving’s constant references to archives, diaries and letters, and the overwhelming amount of detail in his work, suggest objectivity. In fact they put a screen behind which a very different agenda is transacted… Mr. Irving is a great obfuscator…Distortions affect every important aspect of this book to the point of obfuscation… It is unfortunate that Mr. Irving wastes his extraordinary talents as a researcher and writer on trivializing the greatest crimes in German history, on manipulating historical sources and on highlighting the theatrics of the Nazi era.” (Quoted in Richard J. Evans, Lying about Hitler: History, the Holocaust, and the David Irving Trial (New York: Basic Books, 2001), 11.)

There are historians on here who have given you chapter and verse of comment, sources and reasoned argument. All you can do is 'cut and paste' from $#ite sources like VT and Wikipedia. Pathetic.

pedroeibar1 · 04-12-2013 8:41pm

Jawgap wrote: »

So Turing, in between breaking the odd German cipher, found the time to forge a few documents before tea........

Which hut or huts do you reckon they were using to carry out all this forging? and were the American and French intelligence services involved or was this fantasy just a British affair.

Not quite Turing, Jawgap, it was done by all those who ‘disappeared’ to America and are stuffed in Area 51, cheek by jowl, being supervised by the guy who shot JFK and Elvis.
I'm out of here .

Neutronale · 04-12-2013 9:05pm

Jawgap wrote: »

You haven't read much and yet you consider yourself in a position to be sceptical?

I suppose its the quality of the reading rather than the quantity

BTW- I'd suggest not quoting Wikipedia, or if you do at least have the courtesy to reference the article and / or quote the entire section, especially the critical bit that makes up the other part of that section of the article you chose to selectively quote.

I'v quoted from wikipedia very sparingly and dont make a habit of it.

Btw you're not exactly replete with references yourself for someone so ready to give out the pay about it

As you just pointed out, eugenics concerned itself with prevention of procreation, not, as it did with Aktion T-4, with the taking of life. Also T-4 had more to do with reducing the supposed economic burden associated with caring for the mentally ill and chronically sick, not to mention children with Downs and other conditions - it was, to use their own words, about 'disburdening.' and it is clear that Hitler both agreed and endorsed the programme of euthanasia, saying as early as 1936 that it was 'right' to take 'worthless lives.'

I wont make too many comments about T-4 as I've not come across too much about it.

As for the Commando Order, no one knows for sure how many, but as you are fond of Wikipedia here's a quote from the page on Operation Frankton ('the Cockleshell Heroes)

Lol, you dont have to make excuses about your use of wikipedia.

In your quote two men are shot, hardly worth mentioning two deaths in the face of the millions we are discussing. If this is the evidence of Hitler "evil" its sadly lacking imo.

Wibbs · 04-12-2013 10:16pm

Neutronale wrote: »

An interesting point. Perhaps it was a balance of interests involved. The promotion of the zionist project then beginning to take shape in Palestine became more important than attacking the soviets.

Hardly N. Before say the mid 60's Israel was a tiny sideshow at best. Barely surviving and fighting off local Arab incursions. In the immediate post war the western powers largely ignored it. It was a British protectorate until 48, fought off Arab attacks and in the early 50's was hanging on by the skin of it's teeth. Nothing like the later support when it looked like they were going to be a buffer against Reds under the Arab Bed. Western support of Zionism of all sorts was pretty marginal and sidetracked and the special relationship and lobbying was to come later*. The Soviets were by far the biggest threat and propaganda target seen in the west. It would have been so much better of the new allies could have proven the Holocaust was one big commie lie about our vanquished but proud new German ally.

Indeed even with the heavy duty nukes at the ready east versus west Cold war guff going on, one of the vanishingly rare things both sides agreed on was the scale of Nazi atrocities. Officialdom, researchers and witnesses on both sides of the Iron curtain were in broad agreement, only differing in some details.

[edit]*My dad had lived in New York in the late 50's and one of his mates was this Jewish bloke. Him and his family were very kind to him. Home cooked meals and all that for the bachelor Irish guy far from home kinda thing(and tried to marry him off to every single woman they knew

). Anyway he was back in the place on a flying visit in the early 60's and they met up. They were chatting after a meal and this chap mentioned to my dad he'd voted for Kennedy and my dad joked that that must have been his influence

Yer man said that he figured if an Irish Catholic guy got in a Jewish guy might one day get in too.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 10:51am

Jawgap wrote: »

So Turing, in between breaking the odd German cipher, found the time to forge a few documents before tea........

Which hut or huts do you reckon they were using to carry out all this forging? and were the American and French intelligence services involved or was this fantasy just a British affair.

Yes, signing the Official Secrets Act has been demonstrated to be effective at keeping official secrets, secret.

Why is this so complicated for you.

You have a couple of lads with typewriters typing out a few pages of forgeries and you try to pretend it is a major industrial exercise to do this; you're not being in the slightest bit logical.

For the major part the OSA seems to have worked, none of this is rocket science :rolleyes:

who the fug · 05-12-2013 10:58am

Neutronale wrote: »

Why is this so complicated for you.

You have a couple of lads with typewriters typing out a few pages of forgeries and you try to pretend it is a major industrial exercise to do this; you're not being in the slightest bit logical.

For the major part the OSA seems to have worked, none of this is rocket science :rolleyes:

I take it all the pictures on this website are staged

tac foley · 05-12-2013 11:11am

who the fug wrote: »

I take it all the pictures on this website are staged

Sir - you are wasting your time posting factual images. Mr 'neutronale' is not interested in them. For whatever his reasons, and for whatever agenda he has subscribed to, his mind is made up.

None of it - to him or the nazi apologist Irving - ever happened.

tac

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 11:31am

Wibbs wrote: »

By the by... what about Himmlers Posen speeches? Where he directly refers to the "Die ausrottung des Judischen Volkes/The extermination of the Jewish people". Are they invented too?

Thats a hair-raising speech, yet a mere few months before it Himmler had instructed that Sobibor transit camp, be converted into a concentration camp. This would have been many months after Gerstein says 20,000 people a day were being gassed there.

The Reichsfuehrer-SS

RF/Bn pencilled 1674/43 geh.M.

Field Command Post, 5 July 1943

Top Secret!

10 Copies
10th Copy

I n s t r u c t i o n

1.) SS-Economics and Administrative Main Office
2.) SS-Operational Main Office
3.) Higher SS- and Police Leader East
4.) Higher SS- and Polce Leader Ostland (Eastern Countries)
5.) Higher SS- and Police Leader Russia Center
6.) Higher SS- and Police Leader Ukraine
7.) SS- and Police Leader in the District of Lubin
8.) (Chief of Anti-Terrorist Units) pencilled: 9th copy delivered at Hochwald by Ostubaf BRANDT

1. The transit camp of Sobibor in the district of Lublin is to be transformed into a concentration camp. In this concentration camp a depot for the dismantling of captured ammunition has to be set up.

2. All Higher SS- and Police Leaders are instructed to forward to this camp all captured ammunition, as far as it is not needed for the loading of captured guns in use.

3. Motars and in particular the blasting powder are to be used carefully.

4. At the same time a depot for the manufacturing of our multiple mortars or other ammunition is to be set up in this concentration camp.

signed
H. HIMMLER

SS-Obergruppenführer Oswald Pohl, head of slave labour in the Reich, wrote to Himmler 10 days later saying it wasn't a good idea to convert Sobibor transit camp into a concentration camp.

SS-Economic and Administrative Main Office

Telephone: 763261 local
761101 long distance
Berlin 15 July 1943
Lichterfelde-West
Unter den Eichen 126-135
Dictate initials:
Ch,Po/Fa.
Absolutely. to be indicated in replies.

Subject: Transient Camp of Sobibor.
Reference: Your letter of 5 July RF/Bn 1674/43 Goh.RS
(Top Secret)

To Reichsfuehrer-SS

B e r l i n

Reichsfuehrer!
According to your above instruction, the transient camp of Sobibor in the district of Lubin is to be transformed into a concentration camp.

I have discussed the matter with SS-Gruppenfuehrer GLOBOCNIK. We both suggest to you to abandon the idea of transforming it into a concentration camp, because the purpose intended by you, namely, to set up at Sobibor a depot for the dismantling of captured ammunition, will be reached without this transformation too.

The other points of the above instruction can remain unaltered. I ask for your consent, which will be of importance only for Gruppenfuehrer GLOBONIK and myself.

Heil Hitler!
(signature) POHL
SS-Obergruppenfuehrer and
General in the Waffen-SS

http://nuremberg.law.harvard.edu/php/search.php?DI=1&FieldFlag=11&NMTID=1&MTNo=482&MTNoSuff=

It seems to me this conversation throws a major rag into the works of the official story.

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 11:48am

I googled the reference "RF/Bn 1674/43 Goh.RS"

Four hits were returned.

One site (Winstonsmith) is anti-semitic

Two hits registered on a self-described Holocaust Revisionist Forum.

The fourth site has the full correspondence the subsequent bits of which you conveniently left out because they do not support your position / argument such as it is.

boomchicawawa · 05-12-2013 12:00pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Why is this so complicated for you.

You have a couple of lads with typewriters typing out a few pages of forgeries and you try to pretend it is a major industrial exercise to do this; you're not being in the slightest bit logical.

For the major part the OSA seems to have worked, none of this is rocket science :rolleyes:

"It was a typical November day in England….I’d taken the district line to Kew Gardens …and hastened to the British national archives. At the desk I had been assigned, I found a thick bundle of files perhaps totalling 800 pages, held together only by a string. The thin sheets of paper were still immaculately organised. I had to be one of the first people to have held them in his hands. I glanced over seemingly endless protocols of German navy men, mostly U Boat crew members, transcribed word for word. If such reports existed for Sept 43, I reasoned there would have been similar ones for October and November 1943 as well. And what about the rest of the war?.....Gradually I realised that this was just the tip of the Iceberg….captured members of the German Air Force and Army had been subjected to covert surveillance as well…you could practically hear the soldiers talking, gesticulating amongst themselves. What most surprised me was how openly they talked about fighting, killing and dying…..

Over the course of the war, the British intelligence service had systematically subjected thousands of Germans and hundreds of Italians POW to covert surveillance, recording passages of conversations they found particularly interesting on wax records and making protocols of them. These protocols had survived the war in their entirety and had been declassified in 1996…..
A short time later I discovered a similar collection of material – some 100,000 pages worth, twice as extensive as the British Files – in the national archive in Washington (NARA)….It was clear that there was no way I could process this seemingly INFINITE quantity of material on my own"……

Sonke Neitzel ‘Soldaten’ prologue. (available to buy, check it out on Amazon)

I'm posting this for those of ‘Reason’ who post here. I agree that there are some who will never believe what’s in front of their eyes. To be honest I'm not surprised they find this hard to believe, because the web sites they trawl through would not have mentioned these files which are open for anyone…even David Irving ….to look at, I wonder why he hasn't ? Perhaps there is nothing there to support his theories in the 150,000+ files but a shed load of evidence to oppose them…..I have posted pages from these files on this thread and the ‘Holocaust’ thread and also transcribed them, please read them and make up your own minds and I challenge sceptics to order some files for themselves and investigate the soldiers names on them, the service record of these men would now be available to look at too, see if you find evidence they are fabricated....That should keep you busy.....good luck ...and a final Goodbye as I'm finished here.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 12:03pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Propaganda and intelligence are two very separate functions that were run by different organisations and agencies - which one was doing the forging?

Does that even matter? Anyone with a type-writer and 10 minutes on their hands.

And while typing two pages may indeed take less than ten minutes, getting that document to fit with all the other documents generated by the notoriously bureaucratic Nazi German state takes a herculean effort.

Its a bit of a job perhaps but you're really over egging the effort needed.

Take trains for example - do you know how many cars it took the Reichsbahn to move 10,000 people? And how many trains that equates to? Well, if those any many thousands of transports didn't take place, how do you account for the documentation surrounding them? Did the British manage to forge thousands of manifests, transport orders, timetables, station logs etc and insert them into the historical record to be found by investigators? Did they also manage to formulate them in such a way that there is no duplication - no suggestion a civilian train, for instance was running on the same track or at the same time as a military train?

I never said anything about trains, you keep rambling off at a tangent. I've no problem with the trains, they were needed to move the people being evacuated and emigrated. You quite rightly say the "notoriously bureaucratic Nazi German state", and yet there are no manifests of the numbers being gassed. The notoriously bureaucratic Nazi German state machinery breaks down here, perhaps where reality meets fantasy.

Anyway, I think I'm done with this thread. Off back to the real world to do some proper study.......

So you keep saying :rolleyes:

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 12:11pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Finally, a soldier telling his story in 1947 or through the 50s and 60s is afraid the Germans are going to 'make a comback'?............right:cool:

You missed that point completely :rolleyes:

Nothing to say on Babi Yar, thought not.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 12:12pm

daithi1970 wrote: »

.. please dont feed the troll..

Which one, there are so many

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 12:25pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Aaaah I see you have found Veteran’s Today (VT). Really unbiased source,:rolleyes:

I've no interest in VT, I merely surfed for historians saying nice things about Irving and got what seems to me to be a reasonable article. The historians really seemed to think Irving a good historian as their statements make clear. The problem came when he didnt sing off the holocaust industry hymn sheet.

Or, in another example of VT’s garbage, its columnist J. Bruce Campbell in May 2011, stated that: The holy gas chamber is a fake. Which makes the entire Holocaust story a fake. You can study it for a day or for a lifetime and your conclusion will be the same. There was never a plan for exterminating Jews and there was never an instrument. As Professor Robert Faurisson has asked for years, ‘Show me a gas chamber. Draw for me a gas chamber.’ It can’t be done because there was never such a thing. VT is a notoriously anti-Semitic publication, and Faurisson is a Holocaust denier. You expect us to take that rag seriously?

That seems reasonable to me. Calling VT or Faurisson "anti-semitic" or other nasty names doesnt impress me. They seem to be looking at the evidence while you ignore the evidence and play your silly name calling game :rolleyes:

So, next is Keegan, a colourful character...American Civil War and said its PM was Benjamin Disraeli?

I see you're not going to run down the pro-holocaust historians who also said nice things about Irving. You're effort is typical of holocaustians, you constantly throw mud and attempt to deflect and censor views, anything but concentrate on evidence.

You continue to cut and paste selectively, as your post above shows.

I replied to your post which was also cut and paste, pot n kettle :rolleyes:

There are historians on here who have given you chapter and verse of comment, sources and reasoned argument. All you can do is 'cut and paste' from $#ite sources like VT and Wikipedia. Pathetic.

Whereas you provide no links or sources at all :rolleyes:

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 12:26pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Does that even matter? Anyone with a type-writer and 10 minutes on their hands.

Its a bit of a job perhaps but you're really over egging the effort needed.

I never said anything about trains, you keep rambling off at a tangent. I've no problem with the trains, they were needed to move the people being evacuated and emigrated. You quite rightly say the "notoriously bureaucratic Nazi German state", and yet there are no manifests of the numbers being gassed. The notoriously bureaucratic Nazi German state machinery breaks down here, perhaps where reality meets fantasy.

So you keep saying :rolleyes:

Neutronale wrote: »

You missed that point completely :rolleyes:

Nothing to say on Babi Yar, thought not.

I think all that needs to be said about Babi Yar, has been said.

Incidentally, the translations you put up of the correspondence - do you know where that came from? I'm assuming Himmler didn't correspond with his underlings in English.

On the one had the Allies are being accused of mass forgery, then you go on to post documents they translated!! I don't speak German, but I'll assume Staff Sgt Davenport did a competent job translating the original - maybe he was outside the conspiracy.

It also sounds like on the one hand you're saying there was a conspiracy, but on the other hand it wasn't competently executed because the Allies in their rush forgot to formulate "manifests of the numbers being gassed" - you proposed the idea of this grand conspiracy and yet it fails every test thrown at it.

You cite no evidence, only pointing at the lack of evidence before criticising people who do the opposite - there are certainly shades of 'Irving-ism' about your approach.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 12:33pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

So, next is Keegan, a colourful character, big supporter of Bush in the first Gulf War, non-believer in Clauswitz’s dictum, etc..

The article you quote from also says nice things about Keegan...

John Keegan is our generation’s foremost military historian. His 1976 book “The Face of Battle” helped start what is still called “the new military history,” with its emphasis on the cultural context of war and the actual experience of men in battle. In more than a dozen additional books, Keegan has demonstrated his narrative and analytical skills in the traditional genre of military history, concentrating on questions of command, strategy, tactics and the changing technologies of warfare. With great expectancy, therefore, one turns to his first book-length study of the Civil War.

In some respects “The American Civil War: A Military History” fulfills such high expectations. With deft turns of phrase, Keegan portrays the weaknesses and strengths of the war’s principal commanders. The Union general George B. McClellan suffered from a “disabling defect as a commander: readiness to take counsel of his fears.” He was “psychologically deterred from pushing action to the point of result. Fearing failure, he did not try to win.”

boomchicawawa · 05-12-2013 12:41pm

Neutronale wrote: »

You missed that point completely :rolleyes:

Nothing to say on Babi Yar, thought not.

Ha....I know I said I was gone but I thought of something else I should have said and now I have some other points:D

1. I have seen testimony from a survivor of Babi Yar by the way from the Russian archives but I couldn't be assed to post it here because I have no interest in engaging with someone like you anymore. I will only defend points I've made or squash any hocus pocus that's spouted but no engagement in disussion, there's no point ....if anyone else would like a link to it, pls PM me.

2. Has anyone else noticed that when something is posted that has no rebuttal, someone else

posts multiple questions/answers one after the other to try and bury other peoples posts.....how mature of them.

3. I meant to say to those of 'reason'.... that I am unaware if any of the evidence from the tapping files was ever published before 1996 as the British were paranoid about their covert methods been discovered, especially when they thought they would use these methods again, perhaps against the Russians. I have seen were information from a tapping file was used in an interrogation though. I have a transcript from an SS man from WO208/4138 who claimed that the killing of a WSS General's dog was the motive for the annihilation of a Ukrainian village, he had been given the dog by Hitler...In his interrogation he was asked if he had ever got a dog from Hitler, he denied this (funnily enough in his biography,this gift was mentioned at length :rolleyes:) He was being questioned at that time about the action on the Eastern front, but he was not told where the allies had got this info...his answer actually was ...Dog? What dog? Who mentioned a Dog? So good stuff that was heard was not always wasted but it wasn't used as a propaganda tool either t the best of my knowledge.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 1:02pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Hardly N. Before say the mid 60's Israel was a tiny sideshow at best. Barely surviving and fighting off local Arab incursions. In the immediate post war the western powers largely ignored it. It was a British protectorate until 48, fought off Arab attacks and in the early 50's was hanging on by the skin of it's teeth. Nothing like the later support when it looked like they were going to be a buffer against Reds under the Arab Bed. Western support of Zionism of all sorts was pretty marginal and sidetracked and the special relationship and lobbying was to come later*. The Soviets were by far the biggest threat and propaganda target seen in the west. It would have been so much better of the new allies could have proven the Holocaust was one big commie lie about our vanquished but proud new German ally.

Perhaps, its one to ponder. I still think you are downplaying the Palestinian angle and the growing strength of the zionist lobby. Also I think its certainly the case that the suffering of the Jews was appreciated and was beginning to be exploited. I know for example that Hollywood director Billy Wilder made a documentary about Buchenwald in 1945.

%253B%253B%253B.jpg

tac foley · 05-12-2013 1:05pm

Re neutronale's post above - 'evacuated and emigrated'............

Evacuated?

To where?

Emigrated?

To where?

I'm joining a few others, in fact, I'm going right n

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 1:14pm

^^^^^

Wilder photo from the "christiansolution.net" website?

The same website that describes in 'detail' how the "Swedish-jew" [sic] Eisenhower led the conspiracy? That it was a 'popularity coup' for him?

Excellent research. At least Irving uses primary materials to support his views - you might take a lesson from him in that regard.

pedroeibar1 · 05-12-2013 1:29pm

Neutronale is either a Holocaust denier or a troll. None of his posts have adressed the key issues put to him and in response he has put forward ambiguous points or obfuscation, backed up by links to / or excerpts from Wiki. or anti-Semitic sites that have no basis in history.
Could a Mod please do something with this thread.

Jolly Red Giant · 05-12-2013 1:41pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Neutronale is either a Holocaust denier or a troll. None of his posts have adressed the key issues put to him and in response he has put forward ambiguous points or obfuscation, backed up by links to / or excerpts from Wiki. or anti-Semitic sites that have no basis in history.
Could a Mod please do something with this thread.

People should stop engaging for this apologist for Irving's fascism

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 1:49pm

Jolly Red Giant wrote: »

People should stop engaging for this apologist for Irving's fascism

I kind of tend to disagree.

I think people of that ilk need to be called out and the ridiculousness of their assertions subject to scrutiny. They should post their 'evidence' for all to see, only then will they be seen for what they are.

Otherwise, they'll claim they are just being ignored / ostracised / martyred for telling the truth.

I think there is an argument for moving the thread out of History and Heritage - not sure where though.

boomchicawawa · 05-12-2013 4:09pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I kind of tend to disagree.

I think there is an argument for moving the thread out of History and Heritage - not sure where though.

Suggestions: To a thread of 'fantasy and fiction', 'hocus pocus, smoke and mirrors thread', 'i see it but I don't believe it' thread, 'the ulterior motive thread', 'I just like stirrin it thread' 'zzzzzzzzz thread'. 'The Einsatzgruppen were a great bunch of lads' thread 'I only believe Holocaust denial forums' thread...etc...etc...etc...etc...etc..

My vote would be that all the 'interesting and informed' posters share their reading/research/visiting experiences with each other on another thread, would love to hear more from you guys. I've been to Auschwitz, Ann Franks house and Oradour Sur Glane, but would like some info on other places of WW2 interest...etc

ps I went to these places not to be convinced they happened, I went because I knew they happened.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 4:33pm

tac foley wrote: »

Sir - you are wasting your time posting factual images. Mr 'neutronale' is not interested in them. For whatever his reasons, and for whatever agenda he has subscribed to, his mind is made up.

None of it - to him or the nazi apologist Irving - ever happened.

tac

Are you going to confine your contribution to playing the man?

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 4:37pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I googled the reference "RF/Bn 1674/43 Goh.RS"
Four hits were returned.
One site (Winstonsmith) is anti-semitic
Two hits registered on a self-described Holocaust Revisionist Forum.
The fourth site has the full correspondence the subsequent bits of which you conveniently left out because they do not support your position / argument such as it is.

Anything you dont agree with is anti-Semitic, such labelling is not to taken seriously :rolleyes:

I'm not obliged to make your pro-holocaustian points for you.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 4:42pm

boomchicawawa wrote: »

I'm posting this for those of ‘Reason’ who post here. ...and a final Goodbye as I'm finished here.

Still cant resist the half-arsed insults :rolleyes:

You said you were finished ages ago...but you're still here...see u later

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 4:42pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Anything you dont agree with is anti-Semitic, such labelling is not to taken seriously :rolleyes:

I'm not obliged to make your pro-holocaustian points for you.

Not quite - two of those sites were revisionist - I don't agree with them but I didn't lump them in with the first one which is blatantly anti-semitic and definitely NSFW

Well, I don't you make any points for me but I love how define posting the complete evidence as making points for me.

Incidentally, when are you posting up the link or links to that correspondence?

valknut · 05-12-2013 4:46pm

Worth a watch, http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uuV1K_1enmQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DuuV1K_1enmQ

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 4:51pm

valknut wrote: »

Worth a watch, http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uuV1K_1enmQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DuuV1K_1enmQ

And when you're finished watching why not watch some of that posters other videos.....

"9/11 Penatagon Attack - Behind the Smoke Curtain"
"Cab Driver involved in 9/11"
"Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile - Proof!"
"Judea Declares War on Germany"
etc
etc
etc

I doubt even "Conspiracy Theories" would accept this thread.......

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 4:54pm

tac foley wrote: »

Re neutronale's post above - 'evacuated and emigrated'............
Evacuated?
To where?
Emigrated?
To where?
I'm joining a few others, in fact, I'm going right n

That was what Goering had in his letter to Heydrich, the Jews were to be evacuated and emigrate to the East. That is the part of his letter that is often left out by holocaustians.

Join away, make sure you dont sneak back now

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 4:57pm

Jawgap wrote: »

^^^^^

Wilder photo from the "christiansolution.net" website?

The same website that describes in 'detail' how the "Swedish-jew" [sic] Eisenhower led the conspiracy? That it was a 'popularity coup' for him?

Excellent research. At least Irving uses primary materials to support his views - you might take a lesson from him in that regard.

It wasnt actually.

Bet you I'm one of the few on here who has used primary sources in this thread, I doubt the same can be said for yourself.

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 4:59pm

Neutronale wrote: »

It wasnt actually.

Bet you I'm one of the few on here who has used primary sources in this thread, I doubt the same can be said for yourself.

Can you provide a link to the Himmler correspondence please?

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 4:59pm

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Neutronale is either a Holocaust denier or a troll. None of his posts have adressed the key issues put to him and in response he has put forward ambiguous points or obfuscation, backed up by links to / or excerpts from Wiki. or anti-Semitic sites that have no basis in history.
Could a Mod please do something with this thread.

Aha, when you run out of arguments you turn to censorship, so much for free speech and democratic values :rolleyes:

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 5:00pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I kind of tend to disagree.

I think people of that ilk need to be called out and the ridiculousness of their assertions subject to scrutiny. They should post their 'evidence' for all to see, only then will they be seen for what they are.

Otherwise, they'll claim they are just being ignored / ostracised / martyred for telling the truth.

I think there is an argument for moving the thread out of History and Heritage - not sure where though.

Somewhere where its hidden from view so people cant be exposed to the truth.

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 5:01pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Somewhere where its hidden from view so people cant be exposed to the truth.

Link, to the Himmler correspondence - any chance?

If you haven't got it - it's ok to admit it and I'll post it up for you.

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 5:11pm

Ok, well clearly you're not going to post up the original doc so I will

Rudolf Emil H. Brandt (SS Obersturmbannfuehrer (Himmler's personal staff)), Heinrich Himmler (Reichsfuehrer-SS and Chief of Police), Oswald Pohl (Chief of WVHA (SS Econ. and Admin. Main Office); Lt. General Waffen SS)

Is that the only document you accept in that whole archive - or are there others?

boomchicawawa · 05-12-2013 5:28pm

link to an Interrogation of the poor 'maligned and misunderstood' Rudolf Hoess from 1946 - Source. Munich Archives. German first/English second.

http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/archiv/zs/zs-0942.pdf

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 6:27pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Link, to the Himmler correspondence - any chance?

If you haven't got it - it's ok to admit it and I'll post it up for you.

I linked to it already, read again :rolleyes:

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 6:31pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Ok, well clearly you're not going to post up the original doc so I will

Rudolf Emil H. Brandt (SS Obersturmbannfuehrer (Himmler's personal staff)), Heinrich Himmler (Reichsfuehrer-SS and Chief of Police), Oswald Pohl (Chief of WVHA (SS Econ. and Admin. Main Office); Lt. General Waffen SS)

Is that the only document you accept in that whole archive - or are there others?

Why do you insist on asking daft questions?

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 6:34pm

boomchicawawa wrote: »

link to an Interrogation of the poor 'maligned and misunderstood' Rudolf Hoess from 1946 - Source. Munich Archives. German first/English second.

http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/archiv/zs/zs-0942.pdf

Well done you, just shows what you can do when you try.

Hoess wasnt maligned and misunderstood, he was tortured and his family threatened, big difference.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 6:42pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Not quite - two of those sites were revisionist - I don't agree with them but I didn't lump them in with the first one which is blatantly anti-semitic and definitely NSFW

Well, I don't you make any points for me but I love how define posting the complete evidence as making points for me.

Incidentally, when are you posting up the link or links to that correspondence?

Prove it.

What does the second paragraph mean?

Links posted already.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 6:50pm

Jawgap wrote: »

And when you're finished watching why not watch some of that posters other videos.....

"9/11 Penatagon Attack - Behind the Smoke Curtain"
"Cab Driver involved in 9/11"
"Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile - Proof!"
"Judea Declares War on Germany"
etc
etc
etc

I doubt even "Conspiracy Theories" would accept this thread.......

"9/11 Penatagon Attack - Behind the Smoke Curtain" - freeseattle
"Cab Driver involved in 9/11" - hiptothedig
"Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile - Proof!" - Alexander Light

Why are you lying?

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 6:51pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Why do you insist on asking daft questions?

There are no daft questions. Only daft answers.

I notice how you assiduously avoid answering 'daft' questions in any meaningful way.

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 6:53pm

Neutronale wrote: »

"9/11 Penatagon Attack - Behind the Smoke Curtain" - freeseattle
"Cab Driver involved in 9/11" - hiptothedig
"Pentagon was hit by a cruise missile - Proof!" - Alexander Light

Why are you lying?

Now who is playing the man not the ball?

All those videos appeared under that users profile. He was probably critiquing them.

Neutronale · 05-12-2013 7:01pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Now who is playing the man not the ball?

All those videos appeared under that users profile. He was probably critiquing them.

Appearing under his profile is not the same as him creating or endorsing them, you made it sound as if they were his vids when you can plainly see they are not.

None of that invalidates his Auschwitz video in which he goes through the actual facts.

It would be interesting to see you challenging some of his assertions.

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 7:33pm

Neutronale wrote: »

I linked to it already, read again :rolleyes:

Happy to apologise and acknowledge that at post #110 there is indeed a link to the document on the Harvard site - sourced through Mr Winston Smith, I take, it given you've also added links to that vile site in some of your other posts.

Interesting, though, that the link wasn't included in your original post and was added some minutes after.

Jawgap · 05-12-2013 7:38pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Appearing under his profile is not the same as him creating or endorsing them, you made it sound as if they were his vids when you can plainly see they are not.

None of that invalidates his Auschwitz video in which he goes through the actual facts.

It would be interesting to see you challenging some of his assertions.

Maybe later - I can only ride one crazy train at a time.

Wibbs · 05-12-2013 7:50pm

Neutronale wrote: »

Perhaps, its one to ponder. I still think you are downplaying the Palestinian angle and the growing strength of the zionist lobby. Also I think its certainly the case that the suffering of the Jews was appreciated and was beginning to be exploited. I know for example that Hollywood director Billy Wilder made a documentary about Buchenwald in 1945.

John huston made a couple of documentaries on the war in the east. So? Hollywood was a big part of the US war effort, both in hearts and minds and used for expertise when documentary footage was required and lots of people from that industry waded in.

As I said the Zionist lobby though present in the US(naturally, because of the Jewish diaspora there. Just like the Irish republican lobby was present for the same reason) was at a much lower level than later. Perfect example of this was the number of Jews granted visas prewar. Remarkably few considering the size of the place and the existing diaspora. So if Zionism was so influential how come so many Jews were refused visas to the US(and elsewhere for that matter)?

PS if Wilder wanted to gee up the Zionist angle why pick Buchenwald? There were as many Russians and other nationalities incarcerated there. It was an "international" camp.

David Irving

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