Religious persecution in Ireland

MarchDub · 07-08-2011 12:35pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are you going to wheel out the "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" line as well, that's usually how the self pitying threads go.

George Hook and a guest were talking about how the Irish are treated in England the other day and George said he remembered only too well the anti Irish backlash when Mountbatten was killed. To which his guest replied what backlash? Everyone talked about it, but he'd never experienced it.

That was Hook's point, a lot of the anti Irishness is talked about, but you'll rarely fund anyone that experienced it.

It just fits in with the Irish belief that the world is out to get them and they are the most oppressed people on earth.

A lot of Irish people did very nicely for themselves under British rule and if someone had the background and the money they were treated as equals.

Fred What is your problem with Irish history? Heck what is your problem with English history? You add nothing of any historic validity to any discussion but your own frustration and your personal anger at the historic record which you are unable to refute so you turn to jeers, taunts and derision at what is shown to be the record - now the latest "self pity" angle that you have adopted. If you can't refute a fact - what? - just tear it down with taunts?

Monty Burnz · 07-08-2011 12:40pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are you going to wheel out the "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" line as well, that's usually how the self pitying threads go.

Fred, I'm usually characterised as a 'West-Brit' on Boards, so it makes a refreshing change to be lumped in with the Republican and 'oppressed Paddy' lobby for a change. But this does not change the fact that you are wrong about this, whatever exceptions you try to throw up, or however you like to spin it.

jonniebgood1 · 07-08-2011 12:48pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Are you going to wheel out the "no dogs, no blacks, no irish" line as well, that's usually how the self pitying threads go.

The thread is is not 'self pity'. It is dealing with religious persecution.
You need to introduce historic sources into your posts as without backing up your opinion your posts appear to be an attempt to stir the pot or start a row. If you can back up your opinions with relevent sources (not George hooks opinion) it would be very helpful.

I have made this point generally already on this thread and it is ignored. If it is continuely ignored then I will have to either close the thread or ban people who ignore it. I would prefer not to do either. Note- if people have a problem with a post it should be reported.

If this is not clear then PM me.
moderator.

JustinDee · 07-08-2011 1:47pm

HellsAngel wrote: »

German POWS, including Catholics, also got hassle and refusal to stay in Ireland after WW2, it was on a program on TG4. To try and make out that those of the Jewish religion were singled out by the backwardness of the time is nonsense. I'm sure if say, Bosnian Muslims or Serbian Orthodox refugees had tried to enter the country the same ignorance would have unfortunately prevailed.

Nobody was singling out anyone. I gave an example of a particular sorry chapter in this country. I didn't grade it in comparison to anything as many moral relativists posting here tend to do.

CDfm · 07-08-2011 2:25pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That was Hook's point, a lot of the anti Irishness is talked about, but you'll rarely fund anyone that experienced it.

That makes me a rarity.

I am glad it does not exist now and ,in fairness, a lot of the rugby bunch that would make up Hook's peer group would not be into it.

jonniebgood1 · 08-08-2011 10:41am

CDfm wrote: »

Did I say there was one .

He pulled on the Irish Jersey for Rugby and admonished his fellow officers for their simplistic attitudes towards Ireland.

And he is still listed by the Tony O'Reilly owned Indo as a Rugby great

I think it is easy to pigeon hole people.

The suggestion that a link was 'official' implies an unofficial version IMO.
But is there anything solid to back up the claim that he was passed over because he was Irish. It sounds a bit like hearsay to me.

Maybe he missed out because he rubbed people up the wrong way? Or maybe because as the earlier linked book said, the recommendation was not technically correct.

Monty Burnz · 08-08-2011 10:55am

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Maybe he missed out because he rubbed people up the wrong way? Or maybe because as the earlier linked book said, the recommendation was not technically correct.

That seems to stem from Wemyss claiming that he should not be awarded the VC because he wasn't working alone and the citation requires that the VC is awarded for a 'single act of courage'. In fact, the VC is awarded for a 'signal act of courage' - is it possible/likely he misunderstood the meaning of the word?

CDfm · 08-08-2011 12:15pm

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

The suggestion that a link was 'official' implies an unofficial version IMO.
But is there anything solid to back up the claim that he was passed over because he was Irish. It sounds a bit like hearsay to me.

Maybe he missed out because he rubbed people up the wrong way? Or maybe because as the earlier linked book said, the recommendation was not technically correct.

There is a lot of innuendo surrounding Paddy Mayne which is unfortunate.

We do know that accounts of his misbehavior are proven to be exaggerated. The story concerning Richard Dimbleby has been proven to be false by his son David. We also know that he had a habit of correcting fellow officers in the officers mess concerning their misunderstanding of the Irish political situation. This gave him a reputation for being difficult and off message.

I am not a rugby fan, but, I do know from a friends uncle who played for Ireland that there was a long tradition in rugby to be sensitive and inclusive ( I am sure rugby fans could come up with specific example's of this when the english team played in Lansdowne Road consistantly during the troubles).Another Irish cap was Tom Crean in the 1890's.

I am hazarding a guess that he brought this in to his personal and professional life as what was sportsmanlike behaviour and that his sports took precedence over politics. There is an old saying " tell me who your friends are and I will tell you what you are".

He was not a politician, though, and Montgomery and King George were amongst his supporters for his VC.

It is good that he is remembered fondly in Irish Rugby circles.

Anyway, look at Rorke's Drift for VC's and Baron Von Richtofen for aircraft destroyed and they are easly outclassed by a guy nicknamed Paddy.

http://www.rorkesdriftvc.com/

http://www.worldwar1.com/biocmvr.htm

So if you take away all the innuendo what are you left with ?

Monty Burnz · 08-08-2011 12:33pm

CDfm wrote: »

Another Irish cap was Tom Crean.

Note though that that was a Tom Crean, not the Tom Crean.

CDfm · 08-08-2011 12:47pm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Note though that that was a Tom Crean, not the Tom Crean.

Pedant

Tom Crean VC

I shall lower the tone by posting a wiki link and mention that he was catholic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Crean

Fratton Fred · 08-08-2011 1:25pm

In total 1357 Victoria Crosses have been awarded, of these 188 recipients are either born in Ireland or have Irish parentage.

52 awarded during the Indian mutiny, 46 between then and 1914, 37 in WWI and 8 in WWII. The best known is probably Eugene Esmonde.

For every Paddy Mayne that should have been awarded a VC but wasn't, there was most likely a Tommy Mayne, a Donald Mayne, a Sanjay Mayne or a Rhys Mayne.

CDfm · 08-08-2011 4:19pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

For every Paddy Mayne that should have been awarded a VC but wasn't, there was most likely a Tommy Mayne, a Donald Mayne, a Sanjay Mayne or a Rhys Mayne.

So you concede then that Paddy should have gotten a VC.

Fratton Fred · 08-08-2011 4:26pm

CDfm wrote: »

So you concede then that Paddy should have gotten a VC.

By the sounds of things yes. I don't think I ever claimed otherwise.

CDfm · 09-08-2011 7:30pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

By the sounds of things yes. I don't think I ever claimed otherwise.

Ah yes, well if he had been Scottish

http://www.stuart.patterson1.btinternet.co.uk/

kabakuyu · 19-08-2011 9:44pm

I always thought Martin doyle should have got 2 Vc's for this action.

Martin Doyle, M.M., Company Sergeant-Major, No. 10864, 1st Battalion Munster Fusiliers (New Ross, County Wexford). On September 2nd, 1918, near Riencourt, as Acting Company Sergeant-Major, command of the company devolved upon him consequent on officer casualties. Observing that some of our men were surrounded by the enemy, he led a party to their assistance, and by skill and leadership worked his way along the trenches, killed several of the enemy and extricated the party, carrying back under heavy fire a wounded officer to a place of safety. Later, seeing a tank in difficulties, he rushed forward under an intense fire, routed the enemy who were attempting to get into it, and prevented the advance of another enemy party collecting for a further attack on the tank. An enemy machine gun now opened on the tank at close range, rendering it impossible to get the wounded away, whereupon Company Sergeant-Major Doyle, with great gallantry, rushed forward, and, single-handed, silenced the machine gun, capturing it with three prisoners He then carried a wounded man to safety under a very heavy fire. Later in the day, when the enemy counter-attacked his position, he showed great power of command, driving back the enemy, and capturing many prisoners. Throughout the whole of these operations Company Sergeant-Major Doyle set the very highest example to all ranks by his courage and total disregard of danger.

Religious persecution in Ireland

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