Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

The Black and tans in Ireland

  • 09-12-2009 4:43pm
    #1
    Crann na Beatha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,763 ✭✭✭✭


    This post has been deleted.


«134

Comments

  • #2
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Iolar wrote: »
    Were attrocities like rape,murder of unarmed civilians commited by irregulars etc documented in Ireland during the War of independance?
    Undoubtably when I post on this I'll be accussed of anti british extremism and that britian is a benign, benevolent, well meaning friend, etc, etc

    Anyway, I recently read again Ernie O'Malley's On Another Man's Wound, so I'll try and get some of the stuff from it. In particuliar their is the horrendous beatings and torture he suffered in Dublin Castle, mock executions with empty revolvers, and how his eyesight was damaged when they threatened to burn his eyes out with a red hot poker placed millimeters from his eyes. I rememeber when he was captrued with a pistol on a morning house raid down in Tipperary and been beaten to pulp in the local barracks, they asked him had he ever been in the army ( meaning the british army). Ernie replied " Yes " to which a bemused brit asked " what regiment ? " and Ernie replied " We don't have regiments in the Irish Republican Army "


  • #3
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    since when was Ernie O'Malley an unarmed civilian?


  • #4
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    If you google black and tan atrocity you eventually end up at this page

    http://www.oswaldmosley.com/war-atrocities.htm

    For some odd reason Oswald Mosely was apparently one of the few british establishment people at that time to speak out against them.

    the page contains this piece of information ;

    In 1920 over 2000 unarmed civilians, including women and children, were killed by British forces[/B]].

    There were also several official white-wash reports about their activities. Among which were claims that republicans were the cause of the burning of Cork Balbriggan etc etc.

    There is also a good article here about the composition of the Black and Tans ;

    http://www.historyireland.com////volumes/volume12/issue3/features/?id=113768

    Also one here about Listowel where this famous order was given

    http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/listowel.html

    Here is the order;

    "....If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there - the more the merrier. Police and military will patrol the country at least five nights a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but make across the country, lie in ambush and, when civilians are seen approaching, shout "Hands up!" Should the order be not immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man ..."

    June 17, 1920, Lt. Col. Smyth


    Worth noting that issuing this order caused a near mutiny. Many RIC men were dismissed or resigned and at least 2 joined the IRA as a result.


  • #5
    funkydunkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭funkydunkey


    Although a member of the IRA at the Time of his death. The Lord Mayor of Cork was shot in his bed in front of his family.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom%C3%A1s_Mac_Curtain

    When the Delaney brothers in Cork were killed by British Forces in similar circumstances, their Uncle (who was not a member of the IRA) was also shot. He did not die as far as I know. This lead to reprisals that triggered the Burning of Cork City by Black and Tans / Auxiliaries during which a number of civilians were shot and killed.
    In the lead-up to the burning an unarmed civilian and priest was also shot outside Dunmanway. Another priest was killed in Galway and his body dumped.

    A quick look at wiki pages for Aux / Black and Tans would tell alot. Also Dan Breen's Fight for Irish Freedom and Tom Barry's Guerilla days in Ireland are great books and first hand accounts of the time that document attacks of all nature but do mention attacks of civilians regularly.


  • #6
    Mr.Nice Guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    I read a book recently, I think it might have been William Sheehan's Fighting for Dublin : the British battle for Dublin, 1919-1921 - though I'm not certain - but the book in question detailed the experiences of British Army men in Ireland during the War of Independence. It was fascinating how the regular British army men spoke with contempt of the Black and Tans about their poor attitude and how they were effectively a law unto themselves.

    I recall one man saying how when he and the other British army folk would go into a local pub to get a pint they would be served and would be treated respectfully, though he noted he sensed an underlying sense of hostlity from the locals.

    However he said when a Black and Tan would go into the same pub the place would fall silent and the locals would have nothing to do with them.

    Very nasty pieces of work the Black and Tans.


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    funkydunkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 101 ✭✭funkydunkey


    I might look that one up. I read a book a while back along the same lines called British Voices. It was a collection of letters home by British soldiers. It was very interesting because they were by anything from an Auxiliary up to Lord French. And it pretty much covered the whole spectrum of attitudes towards the war. Some were angry with the Irish and others were confused as to why we didnt want to be part of "the Realm"


  • #8
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,559 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »
    I read a book recently, I think it might have been William Sheehan's Fighting for Dublin : the British battle for Dublin, 1919-1921 -
    Very good book.

    The whole role the Auxiliaries played is generally overlooked when ascribing all the blame to the Black and Tans. They were supposed to be the officers who oversaw the B&T's, but in general, didn't.

    I'm not trying to excuse the B&T's for any of their numerous atrocities, but it is worth remembering that many of them were severely shell-shocked and psychologically scarred from the trenches of WW1.


  • #9
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    My grandfather was in the West Cork Brigade and was from Millstreet. He rarely spoke about events but did speak of moving weapons along the trainlines at night and of an ambush outside Ballavourna and Black and Tan reprisals.

    He was embarrassed by the Civil War and had been involved in securing polling stations and ballot boxes in 1932. He discouraged an interest in it.

    Years back I met some of his co-volunteers in San Francisco. I think they were a bit dismayed by the outcome and aftermath.

    There are lots of reasons why many did not document there experiences and from the little I know thought many episodes were best forgotten as in the Civil War they adopted the same paractices.

    West Cork was ungovernable for the British forces during the War of Independence.


  • #10
    donaghs
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,773 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Yes there certainly were atrocities against civilians. But I've never read anything definitive on rape, or an accusation in court. I did read of women being maltreated/roughed up in house searches and in womens prisons.
    McArmalite wrote: »
    Undoubtably when I post on this I'll be accussed of anti british extremism and that britian is a benign, benevolent, well meaning friend, etc, etc

    Anyway, I recently read again Ernie O'Malley's On Another Man's Wound, so I'll try and get some of the stuff from it. In particuliar their is the horrendous beatings and torture he suffered in Dublin Castle, mock executions with empty revolvers, and how his eyesight was damaged when they threatened to burn his eyes out with a red hot poker placed millimeters from his eyes. I rememeber when he was captrued with a pistol on a morning house raid down in Tipperary and been beaten to pulp in the local barracks, they asked him had he ever been in the army ( meaning the british army). Ernie replied " Yes " to which a bemused brit asked " what regiment ? " and Ernie replied " We don't have regiments in the Irish Republican Army "

    Ridiculous. Off the point as he was an armed participant. A different question would be how each side treated their prisoners.


  • #11
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    I know three people whose Grandfather was walking home from school and were confronted by the B&Ts. In each case they took the newspaper their Grandfather was carrying out of his top pocket, hit him over the head with it and told him to **** off home quickly.

    it must have been common practice for the B&Ts.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    I know three people whose Grandfather was walking home from school and were confronted by the B&Ts. In each case they took the newspaper their Grandfather was carrying out of his top pocket, hit him over the head with it and told him to **** off home quickly.

    it must have been common practice for the B&Ts.

    To the best of my knowledge there is no central repository for listing their recorded atrocities.

    However if you read through random Irish history books & historical biographies you come across countless atrocities (some of which were mentioned).

    To give you one other example, Tim Pat Coogans 'Michael Collins' biography - off the top of my head lists several including anecdotes about the woman tending her garden shot right through with a 303 by a potshot from a lorry carrying some passing b&t's.

    The incident of the b&t who arrived in the country a matter of hours when he had executed a random priest and a random civilian standing by the side of the road - the only reason anything came of that was because the survivor happened to be a local RM.

    I think what was commonplace was a far sight worse than happy-smacking random children with newspapers.

    I think this comment above serves only as an attempt to downplay the actual & significant atrocities they committed on a fairly large scale. This is all notwithstanding the sacking of entire towns, balbriggan and cork city etc - shooting firemen and cutting hoses etc. There were also stories of them executing people and putting 'Executed Tout' on the bodies so as to deflect attention to local republicans who would have known full well who they did and did not shoot.


  • #13
    Winty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,033 ✭✭✭Winty


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Undoubtably when I post on this I'll be accussed of anti british extremism and that britian is a benign, benevolent, well meaning friend, etc, etc "

    McArmalite more often that not writes very one sided bar stool I love the IRA crap but today on the matter of the Black and Tans he is correct.
    Britan should face the fact that the Tans were killers who loved nothing more than inflicting pain on innocent people. A dark part of British Army History


  • #14
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Morlar wrote: »
    I think this comment above serves only as an attempt to downplay the actual & significant atrocities they committed on a fairly large scale. This is all notwithstanding the sacking of entire towns, balbriggan and cork city etc - shooting firemen and cutting hoses etc. There were also stories of them executing people and putting 'Executed Tout' on the bodies so as to deflect attention to local republicans who would have known full well who they did and did not shoot.

    I was just relaying a story I have heard several times.

    I wouldn't question the well documented abuse of civilians, especially the incidents you mention above.


  • #15
    R.Dub.Fusilier
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭R.Dub.Fusilier


    donaghs wrote: »
    Yes there certainly were atrocities against civilians. But I've never read anything definitive on rape, or an accusation in court. I did read of women being maltreated/roughed up in house searches and in womens prisons.

    i have read a bit about the Easter Rising , War of Independence , Tan War etc but i cant remember ever reading anything about women being raped. i'm not saying it didnt happen just that i never heard of it.

    i read in a book about Tom Barry , i may have been Meda Ryans one, taht Barry became friends with a former B&T officer. the officer in question was decent and didnt mistreat prisoners etc. he later opened a bookmakers , one of the big chains that operates here in ireland.


  • #16
    Simarillion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 123 ✭✭Simarillion


    My great-grandparents lived near a castle that had been requisitioned by the Auxilieries and partly by the Black&Tans to act as a barracks. They were protestant and unionist, and were on rather poor terms with the local republicans (burned them out in the end), but in particular they talked of some of the awful things that happened as a result of the B&T's drunken raids. They could see the reasons they had been drafted over, and frankly most of them were suffering from trauma from the Great War and many were certainly alcoholics but I think they were seen to be letting down the side, especially when compared to the army.


  • #17
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Simarillion wrote: »
    They could see the reasons they had been drafted over, and frankly most of them were suffering from trauma from the Great War and many were certainly alcoholics but I think they were seen to be letting down the side, especially when compared to the army.

    I dont think you can really excuse it like that. It doesnt matter how they were seen they represented the Crown -so you cant really say "bad show chaps" .(no disrespect to your family) The Black and Tans were little more than mercenaries and similar to contractors in the Middle East today.

    There was no shortage of regular soldiers available and their use was inexcuseable. The Curragh Mutiny where the officers based there were given the offer by their Commander General Paget as early as 1914 and prior to WW1 to resign rather than accept deployment in Ulster to move against the Ulster Volunteers should Home Rule take place.

    So the Army had a political and not an impartial role and was aligned with Unionism and ,while it is not much mentioned now,this undermined the authority of Parliment as Home Rule had already been passed by Parliment.

    Furthermore, the hurried executions following the 1916 Rising by courts martial was stupid and General Maxwell proceeded even though he had been advised by telegram from London to stop them and he disregarded this.

    So on balance I think that the Army Brass was out of control for a long time and lacked the will to control them. You cant really blame an undisciplined load of drunks for their behavior if thats what you recruit.

    So you could probably say that the legitimacy of the administration and its forces had started to break down long before the black and tans arrived. I would question their formation as supporting the administration and say it was to intimidate the population.


  • #18
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    CDfm wrote: »
    So the Army had a political and not an impartial role and was aligned with Unionism and ,while it is not much mentioned now,this undermined the authority of Parliment as Home Rule had already been passed by Parliment..

    Agree - this was well borne out by the army's actions during the Curragh Mutiny. In fact they was accompanied in this support by the English Conservative Party also who travelled to Belfast during 1913/14 in open support of the Unionists urging them to break the Home Rule legislation.

    CDfm wrote: »
    So on balance I think that the Army Brass was out of control for a long time and lacked the will to control them. You cant really blame an undisciplined load of drunks for their behavior if thats what you recruit.


    The records of the discussion concerning Churchill's proposal to Lloyd George regarding the deployment of the Black and Tans was hidden for decades. In fact Churchill himself was told not to mention this discussion in his memoirs. We now know that the reasoning behind this decision was precisely to send in a crowd of murdering hooligans to terrorize the country into submission.


  • #19
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    MarchDub wrote: »
    Agree - this was well borne out by the army's actions during the Curragh Mutiny. In fact they was accompanied in this support by the English Conservative Party also who travelled to Belfast during 1913/14 in open support of the Unionists urging them to break the Home Rule legislation.

    So its pretty clear that lots of groups got used to the show of military force without a mandate. This type of behavior sent a message about the use of force.




    We now know that the reasoning behind this decision was precisely to send in a crowd of murdering hooligans to terrorize the country into submission.

    In some ways this acted like a harbinger to future events by allowing the paramilitary organisation of political factions.

    You could almost say the lesson wasnt lost on Sir Oswald Mosley and his British Union of Fascists which also used military style tactics with William Joyce (yes Lord Haw Haw)as a candidate and director of mayhem. Mosley withdrew support from Joyce but his exposure to force paramilitary must have influenced him.


  • #20
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    Apoint often left out when the curragh munity is brought up, is the fact that the majorty of officers involved in it were of Ulster/Irish/unionist extracation and were in fact refusing to fight what they regarded as fellow country men.


  • #21
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    junder wrote: »
    Apoint often left out when the curragh munity is brought up, is the fact that the majorty of officers involved in it were of Ulster/Irish/unionist extracation and were in fact refusing to fight what they regarded as fellow country men.

    Thats how i understand it too. However, the commander had given the officers the option too resign or to absent themselves rather than accept redeployment to Ulster to enforce the law of the land especially against the Ulster Volunteers and 57 did so. The Ulster Volunteers were a "private army" and that it continued without being banned is odd.

    So in effect Paget had given them the option to choose whether or not they would go to Ulster. The events were not a mutiny and the individuals did nothing wrong. The message was that the officers were given the right to choose and it was a huge benefit to the Ulster Volunteers army would not move against them. It gave the message that paramitarisation of politics worked.

    Moving on to the B & T's - the chain of command was biased. and allowed to be so.


  • Advertisement
  • #22
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    CDfm wrote: »
    Thats how i understand it too. However, the commander had given the officers the option too resign or to absent themselves rather than accept redeployment to Ulster to enforce the law of the land especially against the Ulster Volunteers and 57 did so. The Ulster Volunteers were a "private army" and that it continued without being banned is odd.

    So in effect Paget had given them the option to choose whether or not they would go to Ulster. The events were not a mutiny and the individuals did nothing wrong. The message was that the officers were given the right to choose and it was a huge benefit to the Ulster Volunteers army would not move against them. It gave the message that paramitarisation of politics worked.

    Moving on to the B & T's - the chain of command was biased. and allowed to be so.

    I think it had more to do with what they faced, there is a tendacy to dismiss the UVF of the time but it was a fully fleged and trained army so it would insure that any conflict would be protracted


  • #23
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    CDfm wrote: »
    ...Maxwell proceeded even though he had been advised by telegram from London to stop them and he disregarded this...

    History fascinates me because of the way it pivots on small things and huge consequences arise.

    I don't think any force resembling the Tans would have deployed against a similar Welsh or Scottish insurrection.


  • #24
    coldwood92
    Closed Accounts Posts: 481 ✭✭coldwood92


    IRa were worse then the black and Tans


  • #25
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    junder wrote: »
    I think it had more to do with what they faced, there is a tendacy to dismiss the UVF of the time but it was a fully fleged and trained army so it would insure that any conflict would be protracted

    True - but it was their job and it was a colonial army used to conflict. It was explicit about the us and them situation. In other words the army rolled over for the unionists and that was the precedent.
    topper75 wrote: »
    History fascinates me because of the way it pivots on small things and huge consequences arise.

    I don't think any force resembling the Tans would have deployed against a similar Welsh or Scottish insurrection.

    The army saw itself as a colonial force - but it went off on one. Very arrogant.


  • #26
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    There is evidence that rape was sometimes a part of the atrocities committed by the British forces and the Black and Tans during this period. Remember too that women were very reluctant to report rape because of the serious social stigma against women who claimed this.

    Here is a description of events north of the new border just after the Treaty signing.

    http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/D/0032/D.0032.192910230036.html




    After the Treaty the British forces took steps to drive out those who were in favour of the Republican movement and who were a danger to their supremacy there. Naturally enough, they picked out men like James MeGuill, who were well-known Republicans and who had entertained people like Michael Collins, and they raided him time and again. One night a party of Specials with blackened faces broke into the house and attempted to rape Mrs. McGuill and other womenfolk—her mother and the maidservants. Mrs. McGuill was a short time before her confinement. I saw her the next day in the most frightful state, and I swore that if I could take it out of the skins of the men who did it I would do it. We went the following night and we laid ambush for the Specials from the Camp who were responsible for the attempted rape. We shot a few of them. I am sorry we did not get them all. Following that, Mr. McGuill's house was destroyed by the British on the plea of military necessity.



    Another case is that of Mrs. Anne James Byrne, Tullyorior, Banbridge, Co. Down, whose house was burned down by the Specials in June, 1922. She made a claim for compensation amounting to £2,067 5s. 0d. Her claim was turned down because of the evidence given by the [174] Specials that the burning was a military necessity. Mrs. Byrne, of course, was the mother of two boys who were officers under my command during the Black and Tan war. They were officers in Banbridge, where a man had to be a good man to be in the Volunteers. Her home was destroyed because of the help her sons gave to the Volunteers who were fighting Ireland's fight during the Black and Tan war and following it.

    Another case is that of Frederick Joseph Slater, Curry, Belleek, Co. Fermanagh, whose home was burned on the night of the 30th June, 1922, during Curfew hours by the British military and police forces. Mrs. Slater was given a decree for £1,070. This decision was appealed against by the Fermanagh County Council, and the case was dismissed. At the first trial Captain Beatty, who was in charge of the Specials at the time, swore that he was fired at from Mr. Slater's house, but at the later trial he was not called. These are the cases, all cases of people who suffered because of the actions the people of the North took to support the national fight.


  • #27
    Simarillion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 123 ✭✭Simarillion


    I think we can hardly be surprised that the Army was aligned with Unionism. They were not an Irish Army, but rather were Irishmen in the British Army. All of them were British citizens and all would have sworn an oath to the Crown.

    The fact that their mutiny was dealt with harshly is no shock either. You can't give an order and then have half the barracks not bother to follow through because they don't want too. Thats not how the military works. They put forward their objections and were given the choice to "do as your told or resign"


  • #28
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Morlar wrote: »

    Also one here about Listowel where this famous order was given

    http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/listowel.html

    Here is the order;

    "....If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there - the more the merrier. Police and military will patrol the country at least five nights a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but make across the country, lie in ambush and, when civilians are seen approaching, shout "Hands up!" Should the order be not immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man ..."

    June 17, 1920, Lt. Col. Smyth
    Was that fella Smyth later shot by the IRA ? I thnk he may have been.
    Worth noting that issuing this order caused a near mutiny. Many RIC men were dismissed or resigned and at least 2 joined the IRA as a result.
    Yes, Ernie O'Malley states that the Tans actually went around to the houses of resigned RIC men and beat them up, that's the sort of thugs they were.


  • #29
    le
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭le


    dont live in the past


  • #30
    topper75
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    le wrote: »
    dont live in the past

    Have you not heard what happens those who try to forget it?!!!:D doomed to repeat it!

    I saw an interview with an old IRA guy from West Cork, I think it was on RTE's Nationwide, some years back. He spoke more openly than most about these times and events, and seemed like a genuinely 'nice' chap. However, when he was asked about regrets, he only had one. It related to a chance he blew in the War of Independence to get that Smyth chap. I was greatly taken aback listening to the interview to see such deep raw hatred in a very old frail man going back to incidents that happened so long ago. That alone told me all I needed to know about Smyth. Anyone got anymore cold facts about Smyth?


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    simarrilion - thats a leap. The reason I think is that the Home Rule Party had sold the idea of limited self government and that was based on accepting the legitimacy of the existing arrangements. The institutions of the state including the Army express the will of the State.

    The Mutiny as its called gave individuals representing the state the right to cherrypick what they wanted to do. So this breakdown in authority meant the population no longer had ownership of the army as it was aligned with one of the private armies the Ulster Volunteers.

    The Home Rule Act had been passed except there appeared to be no institution to enforce and protect the new institutions of governments should they have come into being.

    Democracy and forms of government are ideas agreed upon - so IMHO - the Curragh Mutiny was significant on behalf of the Unionist population as the Easter Rising was on the part of the Republican population.It was the same - look we have an army and officers too!

    I dont think any army officer would downplay the need for discipline and obedience or that the events surrounding the Mutiny were misunderstood. It was a coup of sorts.


  • #32
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Was that fella Smyth later shot by the IRA ? I thnk he may have been.

    Yes he was killed by the IRA as a result of that speech. There were also iirc catholics killed in rioting by loyalists after Irish railway workers refused to ship his body by train back to Antrim.


  • #33
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »
    I recall one man saying how when he and the other British army folk would go into a local pub to get a pint they would be served and would be treated respectfully, though he noted he sensed an underlying sense of hostlity from the locals.

    However he said when a Black and Tan would go into the same pub the place would fall silent and the locals would have nothing to do with them.

    Very nasty pieces of work the Black and Tans.
    Don't know if the rest of the brits were as civil as you say. In Guerilla Days in Ireland Tom Barry speaks of the murders, torture and wanton thuggery of the Essex regiment, though he did speak better of the Liverpool regiment and said they were much more capable in fighting than the cowardly scum of the Essex regiment.

    A little bit of my own grandparent's experiences back then. My grandfather and a Grand Uncle were both interned during the Tan War. My grandfather from the hot bed of republicanism Crossmaglen did not like talking about it, he'd just say it was a long time ago. Grand Uncle went on to become an officer in the National/Free State Army, though he passed away before I got to know him. My grandmother worked in a bakery shop in Sligo with the bakery out the back and one day the british army came searching the premises ( often during a so called ' search ' the brits would empty the tills of any money and from pubs take bottles of whiskey etc ). Anyway their was a brit standing beside a barrel of trickle and as they were leaving the brit turned around and kicked the barrel over ! Naturally enough my grandmother and the others were too frightened to say anything, though I'm sure they had a few nice words to say when they had left the area !!!!


  • #34
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    le wrote: »
    dont live in the past
    If you didn't notice it's a History forum. In a History forum people talk about events past ;)


  • #35
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    CDfm wrote: »
    True - but it was their job and it was a colonial army used to conflict. It was explicit about the us and them situation. In other words the army rolled over for the unionists and that was the precedent.



    The army saw itself as a colonial force - but it went off on one. Very arrogant.

    And yet if it had been the other way around, and the curragh munity was on behalf of the republican movement those officers would be hailed as heros, the Fact of the matter was they faced a well trained and well disciplined army which in many cases would have contained friends and family of those officers invloved in the curragh munity. Chruchill did infact send a full squadron of Battleships to try and intercept the clydevally which resulted in thier guns being trained on belfast when they came up the lough


  • #36
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    junder wrote: »
    And yet if it had been the other way around, and the curragh munity was on behalf of the republican movement those officers would be hailed as heros, the Fact of the matter was they faced a well trained and well disciplined army which in many cases would have contained friends and family of those officers invloved in the curragh munity.

    I agree - but the difference was that -these guys had a job to do impartially on behalf of the Government.

    We rely on policemen to enforce the law in their areas. This was the same. Lyndon Johnson used or threatened theb use of the National Guard to enforce equal rights in the USA. The British administration should have been able to do the same.
    Chruchill did infact send a full squadron of Battleships to try and intercept the clydevally which resulted in thier guns being trained on belfast when they came up the lough

    I would like to hear more on this incident.


  • Advertisement
  • #37
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    le wrote: »
    dont live in the past

    McArmalite wrote: »
    If you didn't notice it's a History forum. In a History forum people talk about events past ;)

    Isn't it gobsmacking - and depressing - that you have to say this to someone wandering on here and making such absurd remarks???


  • #38
    Simarillion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 123 ✭✭Simarillion


    Lt. Colonel Gerald Gerald Smyth,

    Born 1885 in the Punjab, India. Son the of British High Commisioner (Punjab Region), mother from Banbridge Co.Down.
    Royal Engineers, fought WWI at Ypres and Somme, awarded DSO and French and Belgian Croix de Guerre and later transferred to King's Own Scottish Borderers
    Sent to Ireland (second time, previously stationed in The Curragh) by Maj. General Tudor, and seconded to RIC as Division Commissioner Munster Province

    Made alleged speech at Listowel
    "I wish to make the present situation clear to all ranks. A policeman is perfectly justified in shooting any person seen with arms who does not immediately throw up his hands when ordered. A policeman is perfectly justified in shooting any man whom he has good reason to believe is carrying arms and who does not immediately throw up his arms when ordered. Every proper precaution will be taken at police inquests that no information will be given to Sinn Fein as to the identity of any individual or the movements of the police.

    I wish to make it perfectly clear to all ranks that I will not tolerate reprisals. They bring discredit on the police and I will deal most severely with any Officer or man concerned in them"

    He was murdered in 1920 at the Cork County Club aged 34


    (his brother George was a member the Cairo Gang, and was later shot while attempting to arrest Sean Tracy)

    http://www.bob-sinton.com/smythsofthebann/apx-c.php


  • #39
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    junder wrote: »
    And yet if it had been the other way around, and the curragh munity was on behalf of the republican movement those officers would be hailed as heros,
    What a load of complete tripe, but then you are a unionist and memeber of the orage order*. I rememeber reading in Dan Breen's My Fight for Irish freedom how the british officers leading the Curragh mutiny were all promoted within 12 months of the so called ' mutiny '. Compare that to the treatement of the Connaught Rangers in India when they refused to take orders in protest at british atrocites in Ireland.

    *http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59356393#post59356393
    the Fact of the matter was they faced a well trained and well disciplined army which in many cases would have contained friends and family of those officers invloved in the curragh munity. Chruchill did infact send a full squadron of Battleships to try and intercept the clydevally which resulted in thier guns being trained on belfast when they came up the lough
    Another load of complete tripe. They weren't faced with a " a well trained and well disciplined army " Many of the weapons were actually " old and defective " and " were offered to the belligerents in the Balkans and rejected, and that they are likely to be dangerous to the users " as you can read from the Irish Independents ( no lover of Irish nationalism it should be said ) report of it in the link below and some were even mistakenly delivered to nationalist houses !!! So much for your " well trained and well disciplined army " :rolleyes: I think in my fight for Irish Freedom it's mentioned how the code word for the landing of the arms at Larne was " Gough " after General Gough, see the link ? Not that it was the last time the british army organised gun running to the loyalists.

    http://www.irishnewsarchive.com/Repository/ml.asp?Ref=SU5ELzE5MTQvMDQvMjgjQXIwMDYwOA%3D%3D&Mode=Gif&Locale=english-skin-custom

    Chruchill did not infact send a full squadron of Battleships to try and intercept the clydevally. If that was the case, how come the RIC and british army did not make ONE single arrest or get ONE single bullet across the north ? He muttered a few words of "concern" in the House of Commons and that was the end of it. No thousands of british soldiers, Tans, Auxilliary's etc been sent over to the northeast with martial Law, internment, executions, house burnings etc like the brits did to nationalist Ireland. Too well we know about british ' peace keeping ' and honesty.


  • #40
    MarchDub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,731 ✭✭✭MarchDub


    The issue of the Curragh Mutiny is still a very grey area. The refusal to march against the UVF went beyond those officers who were Irish born. It was more widespread than that and seems to have been a class/privilege/imperial issue more than an ethnic one. But all documents pertaining to the incident have not been made public - or maybe no longer exist.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/easterrising/prelude/pr06.shtml
    [SIZE=-1]
    "Not surprisingly, given its predominantly privileged background, the officer class in the British army also sympathised with the unionists. Their views were graphically exposed during the ‘Curragh Mutiny’ in 1914. This army barracks located just east of Kildare town, had become Britain’s premier military base in Ireland."    [/SIZE]

    Also the War Office made statements that seemed to contradict the British Cabinet.

    "The War Office stated that ministers had no future intention of using the army to enforce submission to the Home Rule Bill. This assurance may have been given without cabinet authority, as those responsible for issuing it were subsequently obliged to resign.    "

    There was of course an uneven handedness to all of this. No such statement was made to the British Army regarding 1916 - that they could desist from rounding up the "rebels" if they [army personnell] had an Irish background. And how many such concessions were made in the 1918-22 period regarding the British Army and the IRA?


  • #41
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Simarillion wrote: »
    Lt. Colonel Gerald Gerald Smyth,


    He was murdered in 1920 at the Cork County Club aged 34

    I know very little about him - but Banbridge is a favorite place of mine.

    At that time - the republican movement in West Cork made it a sort of free zone. So in that respect he was placed in a highly charged area politically.

    I dont really see anything inflamatory in his speech but I dont imagine someone operating on an open andethical way on behalf of the authorities would have been the most popular of people at all with the republican leadership.They may well have wished to prevent him as a moderate.

    (his brother George was a member the Cairo Gang, and was later shot while attempting to arrest Sean Tracy)

    http://www.bob-sinton.com/smythsofthebann/apx-c.php

    Interesting and the Cairo Gang were intelligence officers.

    Nice to see the Army Biographies - and they are very interesting.


  • Advertisement
  • #42
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    CDfm wrote: »
    I agree - but the difference was that -these guys had a job to do impartially on behalf of the Government.

    We rely on policemen to enforce the law in their areas. This was the same. Lyndon Johnson used or threatened theb use of the National Guard to enforce equal rights in the USA. The British administration should have been able to do the same.



    I would like to hear more on this incident.

    the 2 ships the clydevally and other (I forget what it was called) were transfering the weapons in the dark with all lights out as the sqaudron passed the wake nearly suck both ships, if fate hagone the other way the guns would have ended up at the bottem of the sea, further to that the guns were almsot seized in danmark as the danish authorites believed they were destined for a danish home rule crisis.

    Out of interest since when does being unonist make me a member of the orange order Mcarmalite? (why is it armchair soldiers always feel the need to give themselves a war like name such as naming themselves after weapons)


  • #43
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    junder wrote: »
    Out of interest since when does being unonist make me a member of the orange order Mcarmalite? (why is it armchair soldiers always feel the need to give themselves a war like name such as naming themselves after weapons)
    Well according to your post in the link " Frankly being a member of the Apprentice Boys and having many family members in the Orange order ". Sorry for been an unknowning fenian, but is the apprentic boys not basically the same thing as the the orange order ?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...3#post59356393


  • #44
    junder
    Registered Users Posts: 2,706 ✭✭✭junder


    McArmalite wrote: »
    Well according to your post in the link " Frankly being a member of the Apprentice Boys and having many family members in the Orange order ". Sorry for been an unknowning fenian, but is the apprentic boys not basically the same thing as the the orange order ?
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showt...3#post59356393
    no its not


  • #45
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    Also one here about Listowel where this famous order was given

    http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/listowel.html

    Here is the order;

    "....If a police barracks is burned or if the barracks already occupied is not suitable, then the best house in the locality is to be commandeered, the occupants thrown into the gutter. Let them die there - the more the merrier. Police and military will patrol the country at least five nights a week. They are not to confine themselves to the main roads, but make across the country, lie in ambush and, when civilians are seen approaching, shout "Hands up!" Should the order be not immediately obeyed, shoot and shoot with effect. If the persons approaching carry their hands in their pockets, or are in any way suspicious-looking, shoot them down. You may make mistakes occasionally and innocent persons may be shot, but that cannot be helped, and you are bound to get the right parties some time. The more you shoot, the better I will like you, and I assure you no policeman will get into trouble for shooting any man ..."

    June 17, 1920, Lt. Col. Smyth
    CDfm wrote: »
    I dont really see anything inflamatory in his speech but I dont imagine someone operating on an open andethical way on behalf of the authorities would have been the most popular of people at all with the republican leadership.They may well have wished to prevent him as a moderate.

    Are you talking about that same speech ?

    You really do not see anything 'inflamatory' in that ? You would consider him a moderate or am I mis reading you ?


  • #46
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Morlar wrote: »
    Are you talking about that same speech ?

    You really do not see anything 'inflamatory' in that ? You would consider him a moderate or am I mis reading you ?

    As I see it there seems to be disagreement over what was said in the speech -are there any authoratative sources.


  • #47
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    CDfm wrote: »
    As I see it there seems to be disagreement over what was said in the speech -are there any authoratative sources.

    Not according to this ;

    http://www.policehistory.com/

    A Garda Síochána Historical Society site - which has this article quoted earlier

    http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/listowel.html

    On June 19 the Republican forces were greatly strengthened in their struggle against the R.I.C. by the mutiny of the police in Listowel barracks. This incident had repercussions far beyond the confines of north Kerry. Indeed, it was an important factor in determining the outcome of the Anglo-Irish war. It was the dilemma in which most of the R.I.C. found themselves. As hostilities intensified they had to regard as their enemies most of the people from whom they had sprung. Consequently, within three months of this highly-publicised event, some 1,100 men resigned from the force. This was a crippling blow to the Black and Tans and a great influx of military, none of whom had the local knowledge or information which was all-important in trying to contain the republican's growing grip on the countryside.

    Constable Lillis, RIC, at rear of Listowel BarracksThe mutiny itself had all the ingredients of high drama. It was triggered off by the visit of ex-war hero, Colonel Gerald Bryce Ferguson Smyth who, on June 3, had been appointed Divisional Police Commissioner for Munster. However, the situation had been building up for some days. On June 17 the police in Listowel were ordered to hand over their barracks to the British military and most of them were transferred to different stations in the district where they were to act as scouts for the troops. The police held a meeting and decided not to obey these orders. The following day the county inspector, Poer O'Shee, came to Listowel and when he tried to force the men to obey fourteen of them threatened to resign.

    Next morning, June 19, Colonel Smyth arrived at Listowel barracks. He was accompanied by the inspector general, General Tudor, a commissioner of police from Dublin Castle, Major Letham, the county inspector, Poer O'Shee, the O.C. of the military stationed at Ballinruddery, Captain Chadwick, and Assistant County Inspector Dobbyn, and it was obvious that the purpose of his visit was to deal with insubordination on June 17.

    When the police had been assembled in the barrack-room he addressed them. He asserted that from then on the crown forces would have to take the offensive and beat the Republicans at its own game. To this end martial law would come into force immediately and by June 21 the police and military would be completely amalgamated. Then, together, police and military would engage in a ruthless pacification programme and if, in the course of it, innocent people were killed he would see to it that no policeman would have to answer for such an eventuality. He concluded by saying that the government wanted their assistance to wipe out the Republicans and that any man who was not prepared to help in doing so ought to leave the job at once.

    Then came the first of a number of dramatic incidents. He approached the constable who stood at the top of the police line and pointing to him asked, 'Are you prepared to co-operate with me?' There was a tense moment or two as the constable, a Protestant from the north of Ireland, paused before replying that Constable Mee would speak for him. Thereupon Constable Jeremiah Mee startled Smyth, by saying, 'By your accent I take it you are an Englishman. You forget you are addressing Irishmen.' Then taking off his cap, belt and bayonet and laying them on the table, he continued: 'These too are English. Take them as a present from me, and to hell with you, you murderer.' Smyth immediately ordered Mee to be arrested. As two army officers moved to take Mee away the rest of the police, prompted by Constable Thomas Hughes, crowded round them and refused to let them move. After a few tense minutes Smyth ordered the officers to desist and together with all the visiting officers entered another room, adjoining the barrack day-room, in order to discuss the situation.

    At this point Mee, on behalf of the police, wrote a note, which all signed, in which the entire group assumed responsibility for Mee's words and actions and indicated that they would resist Mee's arrest even to the point of bloodshed. Then ignoring Smyth, one of them handed the note to the inspector general. Another tense period followed while the officers considered this note. After about fifteen minutes the inspector general emerged from the adjoining room, shook hands with all the policemen and left with the visitors. The police who no longer felt safe in the barracks, held a meeting in the public-house then known as 'T.D. Sullivans' (now John B. Keane's Pub - owned by John B. Keane who wrote 'The Field' on which the movie of the same name was based) and, of the twenty-five of them who had been involved in the incident, fourteen, who were single, decided to resign. However, two of these, John McNamara and Michael Kelly, were asked by Michael Collins, who was taking a personal interest in the entire matter, to stay on and carry out merely ordinary police duties. This they did and the following day, when summoned to appear before a court-martial, they demanded a civil trial instead. Next morning a high-ranking military officer arrived at the barracks and told them that they had been dismissed and ordered them to leave the barracks at once.

    At this stage there was a very important development. John McNamara went to James Crowley, V.S., who later that year became the Sinn Féin representative for north Kerry, and gave him a detailed account of what had happened and a statement, signed by the fourteen constables who resigned, describing the remarks of Colonel Smyth and requesting an official investigation into the incident. Crowley had the entire story printed by Robert I. (Bob) Cuthbertson and motored to Dublin in with it that afternoon, and the full story appeared in the first edition of the Freeman's Journal on the following morning. However, it was seen in good time by the authorities and was suppressed. Subsequently it appeared in the Freeman's Journal of 10 July 1920.


  • #48
    mirror mirror
    Closed Accounts Posts: 363 ✭✭mirror mirror


    after an ambush in town,the black and tans burnt down a shop and hardware.this premises was owned by the parents of a man killed at the battle of the somme.he was a captain in the royal dublin fusiliers and was mentioned in dispatches.....:confused:


  • #49
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    If there is an impartial source with an alternate text I would be interested to read it.

    Taking it that the above text is the result of 14 RIC Constables transcription almost immediately after the fact, and, that the RIC were not ordinarily renowned for their republican sympathies the above seems likely to be reasonably accurate to me.

    Given that it was the announcement of a policy shift (hence the senior figures present) and that (I read this somewhere but do not have the link at the moment and probably would not be able to find it either) written note taking was not permitted for the delivery.


  • #50
    CDfm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,649 ✭✭✭✭CDfm


    Morlar wrote: »
    If there is an impartial source with an alternate text I would be interested to read it.

    You cant libel the dead so you can write whatever even saying he wanted all prisoners given a bath.

    I dont believe that there is an imparial source.

    Anyway - in 1920 it was fairly obvious the the Home Rule Party days were long gone.They didnt waste much time getting that in the paper.


  • #51
    McArmalite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,476 ✭✭✭McArmalite


    CDfm wrote: »
    You cant libel the dead so you can write whatever even saying he wanted all prisoners given a bath.

    I dont believe that there is an imparial source.

    Anyway - in 1920 it was fairly obvious the the Home Rule Party days were long gone.They didnt waste much time getting that in the paper.
    Are you trying to troll Morlar or what ? I would have thought it very obvious for the RIC men to resign on the spot the speech must have been very extreme.


  • Advertisement
This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement