Post RWC

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 2:05pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I think what we see with Ireland stylistically is that they fall between two bar stools so to speak.

You have the NZ, Wales, Argentina (1997 & 2015) and Japans of the world- fast, nippy, more natural ball players.

On the other side you have the SA and England- big, burly brute force with lethal wingers.

Ireland do not fall into either camp. So I believe the the usual reaction and talk about jettisoning players is over blown- it is far deeper than that and a cultural issue that strikes at the root and branch of rugby in this country. Quite simply Irish rugby players are not raised to be natural ball players- you cannot manufacture new players or change that in a few years.

disagree. I've been involved with plenty of teams that offloaded. I played against clubs for years with that mindset. UCD, Lansdowne, Trinity spring to mind. Yeah a lower level but all part of the same pyramid. Any rugby player involved in Irish rugby has learned drills designed for offloading. Yes its less than the kiwis etc. But only this week i got a text saying from our club team saying not to play tipper but to warm up with drills and team functions. Utter bs. We used to play touch pre every training session , some with Sexton, and the skills on show were brilliant. The lads in the Irish set up have been hamstrung by Schmidt. Mike Ross uncritically goes into detail about his plan in his book. Google it, to me its shocking. McCloskey was effectively banished for a dropped offload.

Alan Quinlan arguing we don't offload cause its the weather and Northern rugby. Then cites the Fijian second row who played for glasgow in scoutstun offloading at will. also did we imagine the Pat Lam era? We play very few games in wet weather. In most rugby below AIL it gets called off if big rain. I've been to loads of Leinster matches last year in the bone dry.

Leinster offload...James Ryan is a brilliant offloader. He tried one that dropped for Ireland against England i think and i'm sure Joe ate him alive. Haven't seen it since.

Plenty of nippy players - Lowry is one that springs to mind. We have pruposefully constructed a small professional net. We have 209 clubs in Ireland with multiple thousands of players, yet only 180 pro players or so fine. But lets not pretend we are this or that. There's big lads, nippy lads, hard lads. For one reason or another only the very few break through. I played with 3 AIL captains who would be pro in many other countries. One of them is now a coach with Leinster. I'm sure others have people in their clubs with the same story. Sport is a weird thing with a lot of luck lets not excuse ourselves with made up stuff. D'arcy also agrees with your theory.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 2:40pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

disagree. I've been involved with plenty of teams that offloaded. I played against clubs for years with that mindset. UCD, Lansdowne, Trinity spring to mind. Yeah a lower level but all part of the same pyramid. Any rugby player involved in Irish rugby has learned drills designed for offloading. Yes its less than the kiwis etc. But only this week i got a text saying from our club team saying not to play tipper but to warm up with drills and team functions. Utter bs. We used to play touch pre every training session , some with Sexton, and the skills on show were brilliant. The lads in the Irish set up have been hamstrung by Schmidt. Mike Ross uncritically goes into detail about his plan in his book. Google it, to me its shocking. McCloskey was effectively banished for a dropped offload.

Alan Quinlan arguing we don't offload cause its the weather and Northern rugby. Then cites the Fijian second row who played for glasgow in scoutstun offloading at will. also did we imagine the Pat Lam era? We play very few games in wet weather. In most rugby below AIL it gets called off if big rain. I've been to loads of Leinster matches last year in the bone dry.

Leinster offload...James Ryan is a brilliant offloader. He tried one that dropped for Ireland against England i think and i'm sure Joe ate him alive. Haven't seen it since.

Plenty of nippy players - Lowry is one that springs to mind. We have pruposefully constructed a small professional net. We have 209 clubs in Ireland with multiple thousands of players, yet only 180 pro players or so fine. But lets not pretend we are this or that. There's big lads, nippy lads, hard lads. For one reason or another only the very few break through. I played with 3 AIL captains who would be pro in many other countries. One of them is now a coach with Leinster. I'm sure others have people in their clubs with the same story. Sport is a weird thing with a lot of luck lets not excuse ourselves with made up stuff. D'arcy also agrees with your theory.

I am not going to challenge your of the AIL but at the same time this is not happening with the national side. Playing like that AIL is one thing but is it really reasonable to compare that the levels at the WC.

The weather in France is not the greatest at times and they offload. I do believe the default position (same goes for the soccer team) is to treat the ball like a hot potato and safety first.

It is then a vicious circle as the players are not trusted by the coach then the players do not back themselves on the pitch so how do you break the cycle?

TBH I have not read D'Arcy's view on it.

The Lost Sheep · 21-10-2019 2:43pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

The one player that way be a big improvement to this squad could be Aaron Sexton, if he fulfills his promise he could be the best wing we’ve ever produced.

we need to give over on hyping some youngsters up. Yes he is quick and big unit but steady on. How often have youngsters with talent talked of like you are here and then disappeared.

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 2:58pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I am not going to challenge your of the AIL but at the same time this is not happening with the national side. Playing like that AIL is one thing but is it really reasonable to compare that the levels at the WC.

The weather in France is not the greatest at times and they offload. I do believe the default position (same goes for the soccer team) is to treat the ball like a hot potato and safety first.

It is then a vicious circle as the players are not trusted by the coach then the players do not back themselves on the pitch so how do you break the cycle?

TBH I have not read D'Arcy's view on it.

Im not comparing, im just challenging the idea that it is alien to these guys many of whom played at that level. Ireland don't offload i totally agree and it is because of our possession game. Kearney has touched on why he runs to contact its a similar thing..to set up the ruck, control the ball. Offloads means the supporting runner has to rethink the ruck etc. Schmidt chose the ruck option. So Ireland have something like the highest ruck creation numbers in World Rugby. Each ruck needs to be secured and creates hundreds of mini collisions and takes players out of the space. There's a photo or two of the team sending in 5 players to rucks on Saturday and No Allblack in sight.

Yeah it is a cycle, its a tough one. I despair at how we play anyhow. Leinster is night and day with nearly the same players.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 3:06pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Im not comparing, im just challenging the idea that it is alien to these guys many of whom played at that level. Ireland don't offload i totally agree and it is because of our possession game. Kearney has touched on why he runs to contact its a similar thing..to set up the ruck, control the ball. Offloads means the supporting runner has to rethink the ruck etc. Schmidt chose the ruck option. So Ireland have something like the highest ruck creation numbers in World Rugby. Each ruck needs to be secured and creates hundreds of mini collisions and takes players out of the space. There's a photo or two of the team sending in 5 players to rucks on Saturday and No Allblack in sight.

Yeah it is a cycle, its a tough one. I despair at how we play anyhow. Leinster is night and day with nearly the same players.

As a commentator said it a few years ago:

The AB see the opposition as something to avoid and side step. Ireland (by no mean the only offender) see the opposition as a target to run into. A lock gets the ball and they are practically falling to the ground already anticipating contact.

hahashake · 21-10-2019 3:07pm

partyguinness wrote: »

I think what we see with Ireland stylistically is that they fall between two bar stools so to speak.

You have the NZ, Wales, Argentina (1997 & 2015) and Japans of the world- fast, nippy, more natural ball players.

On the other side you have the SA and England- big, burly brute force with lethal wingers.

Ireland do not fall into either camp. So I believe the the usual reaction and talk about jettisoning players is over blown- it is far deeper than that and a cultural issue that strikes at the root and branch of rugby in this country. Quite simply Irish rugby players are not raised to be natural ball players- you cannot manufacture new players or change that in a few years.

Are Ireland not a big team? Burly tight 5, big halves pairing, decent sized midfield. Rest are not undersized either.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 3:09pm

hahashake wrote: »

Are Ireland not a big team? Burly tight 5, big halves pairing, decent sized midfield. Rest are not undersized either.

Look at how the England forwards and SA forwards played over the weekend. Ireland would have seriously struggled to match that intensity.

Utah_Saint · 21-10-2019 3:18pm

partyguinness wrote: »

Look at how the England forwards and SA forwards played over the weekend. Ireland would have seriously struggled to match that intensity.

Can't be arsed checking stats but I'm sure Ireland players compare well with others in terms of size. For SA and England it's attitude not size.

Anyway size is not the issue here...

Niallof9 · 21-10-2019 3:21pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

we need to give over on hyping some youngsters up. Yes he is quick and big unit but steady on. How often have youngsters with talent talked of like you are here and then disappeared.

Not many.

Hyped up to some degree : Earls, Stockdale, Ringrose, Conway, Luke, Kearney, Seanie, Healy and so forth. Turned out ok

A few got lost through injury and one or two were way off like Diarmuid McCarthy. Anybody making the pro 14 teams these days at 19 or 20 is probably in it for the long haul. The AIL is getting left behind now i think.

I agree we need to kill the hype in all angles, that includes stalwarts who are underperforming. So Conor Murray was World Class, its hype to still talk of him in that vein at least for the moment. Peter O'Mahony was Lions captain for one test for 50 minutes its hype to still refer to it.

partyguinness · 21-10-2019 3:22pm

Utah_Saint wrote: »

Can't be arsed checking stats but I'm sure Ireland players compare well with others in terms of size. For SA and England it's attitude not size.

Anyway size is not the issue here...

I think you are taking my post too literally. I was more referring to the intensity, size and how these have traditionally been both SA's and England's default strengths and 'go to' game plan as opposed to how Wales and NZ play.

Jump_In_Jack · 21-10-2019 4:18pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

we need to give over on hyping some youngsters up. Yes he is quick and big unit but steady on. How often have youngsters with talent talked of like you are here and then disappeared.

I know you are trying to be a sort of protector of young guys, and I'd agree with that in general,
But in this case the fact is that we simply have never had a sprinter of his calibre in Ireland, and to have him decide to play rugby is hugely exciting.
To be able to record 10.49 seconds for the 100 metre sprint at 18 years of age is unprecedented in this country.
It could be a game changer if that type of speed was available on the wing.
Of course there is more to rugby than just being fast, but it's something we've never had to that extent.

Edit: I meant his 100m record at his age, of course Paul Hession holds the Irish 100m record at 10.18 seconds.

Donnielighto · 21-10-2019 4:51pm

Niallof9 wrote: »

Exactly what I’m suggesting. Peter on 550 k or Ruddock on what probably 250k...they will back their investment. It’s a chicken and egg situation at times which came first the central contract or the immovable undroppable player. Like I don’t know how some of the well paid undroppable look at the others in the eye. I’m sure there is tension. People will point to dev....probably on a lower salary as he’s not as marketable and he’s aging. I think it’s a factor you don’t, we will never know. Look at Bowe always making squads right to the bitter end on his 500 k

Move to provincial contracts, private etc. ringfencing 12 guys from a 35 man squad in 2019 is dumb in my opinion. Zebo was snubbed and he thumbed his nose, rightly or wrongly but earls yesterday was making a mockery of his central contract and big bucks.

We also get flavor of the months who never stood a chance. Of course form should play a major part just as it does at lower level.

Central contracts aren't the issue. Selecting based on them is as you said.

I wouldn't be using zebo to justify much though. Hes a mouth with plenty going in and out.

Donnielighto · 21-10-2019 4:55pm

AdamD wrote: »

Deegan was junior world player of the year. Doris and Penny are top prospects too. Conor O'Brien could breakout this year in the backline at Leinster

Pat Patterson of the fake name is good, very good.

aloooof · 21-10-2019 4:59pm

AdamD wrote: »

Deegan was junior world player of the year. Doris and Penny are top prospects too. Conor O'Brien could breakout this year in the backline at Leinster

JJ Hanrahan was nominated for this back in 2012, so it doesn't always translate to guaranteed success at the highest level, but Deegan does seem to have a really high ceiling; lets hope he can convert his potential.

The Lost Sheep · 21-10-2019 5:26pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I know you are trying to be a sort of protector of young guys, and I'd agree with that in general,
But in this case the fact is that we simply have never had a sprinter of his calibre in Ireland, and to have him decide to play rugby is hugely exciting.
To be able to record 10.49 seconds for the 100 metre sprint at 18 years of age is unprecedented in this country.
It could be a game changer if that type of speed was available on the wing.
Of course there is more to rugby than just being fast, but it's something we've never had to that extent.

Edit: I meant his 100m record at his age, of course Paul Hession holds the Irish 100m record at 10.18 seconds.

I'm no protector just think people over hype kids based on schools and 20s rugby.
Being quick is great but doesnt mean he should be fast tracked.

Dubinusa · 21-10-2019 8:04pm

It's a new era now! Lots of work to do. Lots of lads to be dropped?
Ruddock for 2 years has been a lot better than POM. I think he starts.
Standers and Conan are obviously our best options at 8. Hopefully, Deegan or Doris can pressure them.
VDF is the best 7, depending on Leavy and his recovery.
Penny and Hodnett are possible prospects down the road.
Murray has been awful. Completely below average. Farrell should not persist with him unless he turns it around.
Stockdale, has not been used regularly. Both of our wings have been spectators. They need to be used more. The wrap around is so expected and predictable.
I don't think we're going to suffer a lot. A gradual introduction of new blood over the 18 months will be fine. I think the shackles need to come off a little. But, time will tell. Exciting rugby ahead?

Shefwedfan · 21-10-2019 9:49pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

It's a new era now! Lots of work to do. Lots of lads to be dropped?
Ruddock for 2 years has been a lot better than POM. I think he starts.
Standers and Conan are obviously our best options at 8. Hopefully, Deegan or Doris can pressure them.
VDF is the best 7, depending on Leavy and his recovery.
Penny and Hodnett are possible prospects down the road.
Murray has been awful. Completely below average. Farrell should not persist with him unless he turns it around.
Stockdale, has not been used regularly. Both of our wings have been spectators. They need to be used more. The wrap around is so expected and predictable.
I don't think we're going to suffer a lot. A gradual introduction of new blood over the 18 months will be fine. I think the shackles need to come off a little. But, time will tell. Exciting rugby ahead?

A lot of discussion about the back row :-) I do agree our back row is critical and needs to be changed. I said before tournament our back row would be an issue if we didn’t change it and unfortunately it came true....

The young players coming up are very exciting....loads of great days ahead.....hopefully with the sudden hatred of all things rugby tickets will be easier to get

Jump_In_Jack · 21-10-2019 9:49pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I'm no protector just think people over hype kids based on schools and 20s rugby.
Being quick is great but doesnt mean he should be fast tracked.

I thought I read somewhere that he is going to play sevens for a year to help develop before joining the Ulster senior squad.
Season or two with Ulster will tell a lot.
Hopefully all going well he will develop like Larmour did in his early 20’s in time to make the next RWC.

partyguinness · 22-10-2019 11:45am

I think the issue with Murray is that he is trying too much perhaps trying to be too clever and doing too much whereas he should just concentrate on his role as a SH.

This particularly struck me watching Faf de Clerk on Sunday- a busy little bee doing what SHs should do. Complete contrast to how Murray has played in recent times. Just read he was MOM against Japan.

He needs to get back to basics.

Dubinusa · 22-10-2019 6:11pm

Imo, Murray was not the best sh in Ireland last season. He seemed well off the pace and I thought he should have taken some time off after the 6nations.
It seems he's still not close to being back to himself.
If he doesn't recover form he should definitely be dropped. He's at a crossroads now! He's 30 and has a lot of miles on him. He may never return to form.
That being said, Schmidt ran him into the ground imo. I think the replacement sh's have their own set of skills and styles which were not developed. The lack of game time hurt us. The same could be said for Sexton!
He also has been poor. After the Jackson trial, it seems there was no back up plan. Carberry was rushed? He still does not impress me at 10! Carty made the team, but a little too late! RB was dumped after England absolutely hammered us, like it was his fault.
All in all, I think it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Going forward, the other 9's and 10's definitely need meaningful match time. I hope Farrell sees this. Reliance on a couple of lads is nuts.
The 6nations can't get here soon enough.

disposableFish · 22-10-2019 6:26pm

Jump_In_Jack wrote: »

I know you are trying to be a sort of protector of young guys, and I'd agree with that in general,
But in this case the fact is that we simply have never had a sprinter of his calibre in Ireland, and to have him decide to play rugby is hugely exciting.
To be able to record 10.49 seconds for the 100 metre sprint at 18 years of age is unprecedented in this country.
It could be a game changer if that type of speed was available on the wing.
Of course there is more to rugby than just being fast, but it's something we've never had to that extent.

Edit: I meant his 100m record at his age, of course Paul Hession holds the Irish 100m record at 10.18 seconds.

That's crazy good. I just checked and he ran 10.43 in June.

For context, 10.61 won the national championships this year by an athlete with a pb of 10.41.

partyguinness · 22-10-2019 7:52pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

Imo, Murray was not the best sh in Ireland last season. He seemed well off the pace and I thought he should have taken some time off after the 6nations.
It seems he's still not close to being back to himself.
If he doesn't recover form he should definitely be dropped. He's at a crossroads now! He's 30 and has a lot of miles on him. He may never return to form.
That being said, Schmidt ran him into the ground imo. I think the replacement sh's have their own set of skills and styles which were not developed. The lack of game time hurt us. The same could be said for Sexton!
He also has been poor. After the Jackson trial, it seems there was no back up plan. Carberry was rushed? He still does not impress me at 10! Carty made the team, but a little too late! RB was dumped after England absolutely hammered us, like it was his fault.
All in all, I think it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Going forward, the other 9's and 10's definitely need meaningful match time. I hope Farrell sees this. Reliance on a couple of lads is nuts.
The 6nations can't get here soon enough.

I think Murray spent too much time looking forward over this scrum rather than feeding the backs laterally.

He seemed to be doing too much thinking about it without actually doing the basics.

I just can't get Faf de Clerk's performamce out of my head- nothing ground breaking by any means but just a rock solid SH performamce- quick, incisive and decisive.

threeball · 22-10-2019 8:42pm

Anyone looking for a clean out is only looking for another world cup tonking in 2023. You need to keep some of the senior players with new blood filling in around for the first 2yrs. In the meantime move out the lads who can't move the ball or have a low skill level. In 2021/2022 you need to have the team 70% new blood. High skill levels, low mileage, encouraging the provinces to play similarly. Then build towards the WC tweaking the gameplan in the 2023 six nations and refining in the warm ups. Bring in 15 new lads now and they'll get hammered for two years and be ready to put out to pasture in 4. Alot of the current squad will still serve a purpose.

is_that_so · 24-10-2019 2:51pm

threeball wrote: »

Anyone looking for a clean out is only looking for another world cup tonking in 2023. You need to keep some of the senior players with new blood filling in around for the first 2yrs. In the meantime move out the lads who can't move the ball or have a low skill level. In 2021/2022 you need to have the team 70% new blood. High skill levels, low mileage, encouraging the provinces to play similarly. Then build towards the WC tweaking the gameplan in the 2023 six nations and refining in the warm ups. Bring in 15 new lads now and they'll get hammered for two years and be ready to put out to pasture in 4. Alot of the current squad will still serve a purpose.

There are quite a few positions that need to be looked at now and options lined up. Apart from 2 & 5 the scrum seems well covered. In the backline 9,10,15 need attention as a matter of urgency and the others unquestionably need people to try out for them.

Dubinusa · 24-10-2019 7:24pm

Also, the dynamics of the team may change. Knowing that Sexton is nearing his finale, our strategy will most likely be changed to the strengths of the next 10.
With that in mind, I think we may see some of the younger lads brought in sooner.

Dubinusa · 28-10-2019 5:49pm

So the 6nations are right around the corner!! Any body think there will be a shock omission from the 23?

The Lost Sheep · 28-10-2019 6:17pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

So the 6nations are right around the corner!! Any body think there will be a shock omission from the 23?

far too early to talk about 23. Talk should be about ommissions to extended squad first of all as that's the first thing you will see from Farrell and give an indication of change or not...

Dubinusa · 28-10-2019 7:25pm

So, who gets the hook?
Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".

Former Former · 28-10-2019 8:38pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

So, who gets the hook?
Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".

Nobody is/was undroppable. There are players for whom there are legitimate replacements and there are players for whom there aren't.

whatawaster · 28-10-2019 8:40pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

So, who gets the hook?
Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".

Well Kearney and Best are gone. Toner and Cronin probably also
No point persisting with Earls imo.
I’d immediately start looking beyond Sexton, but I don’t think that will happen. I’d put POM in that boat as well.

I don’t foresee wholesale changes but maybe 5 or 6 new players to freshen things up. The big change needs to be the fringe players getting more of a chance (Larmour, Carbery, Beirne, Addison, Scannell ...)

Max Deegan and/or Doris for the back row
Gibson Park maybe deserves a chance at SH (though I am a fan of both Marmion and McGrath)
Maybe Haley to get a chance for the extended squad. Thought he was brilliant for Munster on Friday

whatawaster · 28-10-2019 8:43pm

Former Former wrote: »

Nobody is/was undroppable. There are players for whom there are legitimate replacements and there are players for whom there aren't.

Conor Murray has not been the best scrum half in Ireland for 12 months if we are being honest.
And we had two viable replacements for him. Marmion has proved himself plenty with the squad and started probably our best ever win (all blacks). McGrath is the starting scrum half for one of the two best teams in Europe

You cannot tell me he hasn’t been undroppable. He was barely sub-able in Joe’s eyes

jacothelad · 28-10-2019 8:52pm

Dubinusa wrote: »

So, who gets the hook?
Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".

Well some who are rightly undroppable at the moment are Healy, Furlong, James Ryan, Ringrust.

Shefwedfan · 28-10-2019 9:35pm

whatawaster wrote: »

Conor Murray has not been the best scrum half in Ireland for 12 months if we are being honest.
And we had two viable replacements for him. Marmion has proved himself plenty with the squad and started probably our best ever win (all blacks). McGrath is the starting scrum half for one of the two best teams in Europe

You cannot tell me he hasn’t been undroppable. He was barely sub-able in Joe’s eyes

I would put the Grand Slam win in twickers above the NZ win.....we had already beaten them in Chicago at that stage

VayNiice · 28-10-2019 9:57pm

Former Former wrote: »

Nobody is/was undroppable. There are players for whom there are legitimate replacements and there are players for whom there aren't.

Total rubbish. O'Mahony has been awful all year and still gets selected regardless. Ruddock has always done well when selected and Beirne has his qualities too.

Dubinusa · 28-10-2019 10:01pm

True enough about Sexton. But, he should not be getting 70 minutes a match. Carberry needs time as does Carty.
Healy's is still our best lh, but he's getting older and I think we should be looking for a successor. Maybe Wycherly at Munster or E.O.S, depending on their progress.
I think Earl's should be jettisoned and Conway should get the nod. Larmour, Addison and Haley are perhaps the best prospects at fb.
The problem as I see it is Murray! His salary is large and he just signed his deal. I think if he's not back to his best, he should be dropped. How will they handle that?
Toner also is on the wrong side of 30, but with Beirne, Henderson and Ryan we're well stocked. Imo, Kleyn was awful! I can't see him getting many caps. Especially, with the likes of Baird and Dunne coming up.
It will be fascinating.

Downlinz · 29-10-2019 12:14am

Dubinusa wrote: »

So, who gets the hook?
Will Farrell ruthlessly drop the "undroppables".

Whoever performs for their province in the next few months should play and whoever doesn't should be left out, there should be no credit in the bank for anyone.

To pick players who should be in or out in October would be repeating the problem. The squad and team should be picked on form while recognising the possibility that someone who had a poor RWC may return to form in the next few months.

bilston · 29-10-2019 12:34am

Which players have been impressing at their provinces over the first four rounds of the Pro 14?

I can only speak for Ulster, but I'd say Billy Burns has been the standout at Ulster so far.

Who has stood out at the other provinces?

Berticus · 29-10-2019 12:46am

It’s interesting to look at the respective 23’s from the last two world cups. Only 9 of the 23 from the 2015 World Cup made the 23 in 2019 (when comparing the predominantly full strength matches at each).
In between, I think it’s fair to say that there has been gradual change with a focus on building depth/the bench without a sort of Big Bang approach of dropping loads of guys - as some people are calling for. I think we’ll see something similar now. Nevertheless, I think we are probably going to see a decent amount of change by 2023 gradually over the 4 years.

Also interesting to note as well, that there’s around 8 players in the ‘19 squad which were quite unknown in ‘15 which is exciting for the next few years in terms of seeing young talent coming through, as there appears to be a lot.,

Ireland vs France RWC 15

15. Rob Kearney
14. Tommy Bowe
13. Keith Earls
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Dave Kearney
10. Johnny Sexton
9. Conor Murray

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. Devin Toner
5. Paul O’Connell (captain)
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Sean O’Brien
8. Jamie Heaslip

Replacements:

16. Richardt Strauss
17. Jack McGrath
18. Nathan White
19. Iain Henderson
20. Chris Henry
21. Eoin Reddan
22. Ian Madigan
23. Luke Fitzgerald

Ireland vs New Zealand RWC 19

15. Rob Kearney
14. Keith Earls
13. Garry Ringrose
12. Robbie Henshaw
11. Jacob Stockdale
10. Jonathan Sexton
9. Conor Murray

1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Iain Henderson
5. James Ryan
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Josh van der Flier
8. CJ Stander

Replacements:
16. Niall Scannell
17. Dave Kilcoyne
18. Andrew Porter
19. Tadhg Beirne,
20. Rhys Ruddock
21. Luke McGrath
22. Joey Carbery
23. Jordan Larmour

2023 World Cup:

15. ? Larmour ?
14. ?
13. Garry Ringrose?
12. Robbie Henshaw?
11. Jacob Stockdale ?
10. Joey Carberry
9. ? Murray?

1. ?
2. ?
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. ? Iain Henderson?
5. James Ryan
6. ?
7. ? Leavy?
8. ?

sydthebeat · 29-10-2019 8:17am

bilston wrote: »

Which players have been impressing at their provinces over the first four rounds of the Pro 14?

I can only speak for Ulster, but I'd say Billy Burns has been the standout at Ulster so far.

Who has stood out at the other provinces?

From a leinster point of view, Hugo Keenan looks very much the real deal at 15.

I'd like to see him get some serious european time this season to see how he goes.

Shefwedfan · 29-10-2019 8:57am

In terms of the team above I don’t think you will be seeing Carbery at 10 for 2023....

Not that he isn’t good enough or anything, I would hope H Byrne kicks on and he is out 10 and we look at Carbery in another position.....let’s say, maybe 15 :-)

Podge_irl · 29-10-2019 9:18am

Niallof9 wrote: »

Did i say the coach? I said the IRFU. Also the players of course care. Its definitely a factor. If people say it isn't , well thats is a denial of human society and how life works.

The IRFU don't pick the team. Thus endeth the relevance of that. It's not even like in England with the EPS, the Irish coach can pick whoever he wants. Players are not ringfenced for selection.

The coach just isn't very likely to drop a centrally contracted player as they generally have that central contract because they are highly rated and consistently selected by the coach. The causality on this one is clear. It wouldn't even make financial sense were that a concern - good performances are worth far more than savings on match fees. Also, central contracts or not, these players will need to be on high salaries to keep them in Ireland and ultimately the IRFU is going to have to pay it either way.

Plenty of nippy players - Lowry is one that springs to mind. We have pruposefully constructed a small professional net. We have 209 clubs in Ireland with multiple thousands of players, yet only 180 pro players or so fine. But lets not pretend we are this or that. There's big lads, nippy lads, hard lads. For one reason or another only the very few break through. I played with 3 AIL captains who would be pro in many other countries. One of them is now a coach with Leinster. I'm sure others have people in their clubs with the same story. Sport is a weird thing with a lot of luck lets not excuse ourselves with made up stuff. D'arcy also agrees with your theory.

Who cares if they would be pro? They would not have any impact on top level professional teams and wouldn't be within a mile of the national team so what does it matter? Provincial teams have pulled from the AIL at times - the players were never particularly good.

Sheep breeder · 29-10-2019 10:15am

From watching the RWC so far the game is changing to quick ball from the SH to keep teams going forward and not slowing the game down, which Ireland do at the moment and how many different English players moved in to SH to move the ball on against the AB. Also England and other teams have put in young players in to the team to great effect and are progressing along the game path and to counter the opposition game.
The way forward is to get more young players into the team for their prime years.

Squidgy Black · 29-10-2019 10:30am

bilston wrote: »

Which players have been impressing at their provinces over the first four rounds of the Pro 14?

I can only speak for Ulster, but I'd say Billy Burns has been the standout at Ulster so far.

Who has stood out at the other provinces?

Ronan Kelleher and Hugo Keenan have been the main two standouts for Leinster.

bilston · 29-10-2019 10:44am

Squidgy Black wrote: »

Ronan Kelleher and Hugo Keenan have been the main two standouts for Leinster.

Kelleher is a hooker??

Shefwedfan · 29-10-2019 11:01am

bilston wrote: »

Which players have been impressing at their provinces over the first four rounds of the Pro 14?

I can only speak for Ulster, but I'd say Billy Burns has been the standout at Ulster so far.

Who has stood out at the other provinces?

It's Pro 14 and to be honest most of the teams are playing B & C sides. So fairly irrelevant.

Need to look at form after Europe and then see who is or who should be going to the Christmas camp and then into 6 nations.

I would expect some of the WC squad will pick up niggles etc so a chance for some of the younger player to start in Europe

Squidgy Black · 29-10-2019 11:02am

bilston wrote: »

Kelleher is a hooker??

Yeah, Cian's younger brother. With Cronin out injured there's a good chance he could be in the mix for starting the first of the champions cup games over Byrne/Tracy.

bilston · 29-10-2019 7:00pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

It's Pro 14 and to be honest most of the teams are playing B & C sides. So fairly irrelevant.

Need to look at form after Europe and then see who is or who should be going to the Christmas camp and then into 6 nations.

I would expect some of the WC squad will pick up niggles etc so a chance for some of the younger player to start in Europe

I understand what you're saying but I'd argue that it's not really irrelevant, because if players perform well now then it puts them in a good position to get selected for the European games. Squidgy mentions Ronan Kelleher. Now I haven't seen him play (to the best of my knowledge), but if there was ever a position we need someone to breakthrough in it is hooker. Kelleher earns a place in the Leinster European team now and then who knows what will happen between now and February.

I would have said the same of James Hume at Ulster before he got injured at the weekend, his early season form could have put McCloskey under pressure come the European games and then who knows. I'm sure there are examples from Munster and Connacht

whatawaster · 29-10-2019 9:29pm

Fitzgerald has been impressive for Connacht at 10, looks to have a bright future

Dubinusa · 30-10-2019 4:58am

A gradual change is most likely what we're going to get.
Many stalwarts will still be in the mix, I reckon.
Nordi, for one looks to be in a good position. His versatility is his strength and with POM constantly underwhelming, it's possible he could be seen as an addition.
Also, Carty v Carberry should heat up over the coming months! Obviously, one of them is in poll position to succeed Sexton. I am unsure as to how RB has performed for Leinster. Burns apparently, is going well for Ulster.
I also think a couple of good months would set J.O.D up to be in the mix. T.O.D is too old imo, and I doubt he'll be in the running. The likes of Doris, Boyle and Deegan will be capped over the next 12 months. My money would be on Boyle to make the leap.
Cillian Gallagher is another lad who I thought would be a force, but he seems to be injured a lot.
I hope Ronan Kelliher lives up to the hype. McBurney too! We could certainly use some quality new blood at hooker.
I think we're going to have a good 6nations. I think we're going to win at least 3 matches.

Shefwedfan · 30-10-2019 11:22am

Dubinusa wrote: »

A gradual change is most likely what we're going to get.
Many stalwarts will still be in the mix, I reckon.
Nordi, for one looks to be in a good position. His versatility is his strength and with POM constantly underwhelming, it's possible he could be seen as an addition.
Also, Carty v Carberry should heat up over the coming months! Obviously, one of them is in poll position to succeed Sexton. I am unsure as to how RB has performed for Leinster. Burns apparently, is going well for Ulster.
I also think a couple of good months would set J.O.D up to be in the mix. T.O.D is too old imo, and I doubt he'll be in the running. The likes of Doris, Boyle and Deegan will be capped over the next 12 months. My money would be on Boyle to make the leap.
Cillian Gallagher is another lad who I thought would be a force, but he seems to be injured a lot.
I hope Ronan Kelliher lives up to the hype. McBurney too! We could certainly use some quality new blood at hooker.
I think we're going to have a good 6nations. I think we're going to win at least 3 matches.

Just in terms of results, last 6 nations we won 3 games and it was a disaster......I know what you mean and I think 3 wins would be positive but some people expectations are a little higher

Ross Byrne is playing well, but he has been playing well now for a number of years and doesn't seem to be in favour so I don't expect to see him. H Byrne is coming off the bench and getting experience but he is a long way from the squad, maybe a few weekend with the squad just to get a feel for it.....

Sexton is not going anywhere, he says the Lions tour will be swansong. If he is the form 10 then I don't see why he wouldn't be picked, if Carbery is playing better then he starts. Simple as that. Carbery biggest issue at the moment is staying fit, he has had a bad run and seemingly is still suffering from the ankle.

Not sure about Carty, no surprise, he is 27 now....next WC he will be 31. Burns and some of the younger outhalfs would be a better investment. Carbery/Burns/H Byrne would be a good line up for next few seasons.

Number 9 I have no idea, I dont think Murray will make another WC, he probably plans to make it himself. If that is the case would Ireland do a NZ and give him a year off? Casey in Munster looks the options but limited time in first team and like H Byrne probably not till next year.

Cooney is meh....so do they look at McGrath and Marmion and maybe JGP?

The likes of TOD etc are just wasted caps in my opinion, they are no better than the older generation and just stopping younger players getting a chance. They should be all cut out of options unless we have a nightmare.

I dont really care about form either, whats the point in giving someone 10 caps when they have no long term future. I would include the like of Cronin in that bracket, he wil never be the number one hooker so drop him out

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