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How would selling 2FM work?

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  • 07-11-2019 3:35pm
    #1
    flazio
    Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭


    I don't mean costs, I mean if RTÉ were to go about selling 2FM what exactly would a buyer be getting? Ownership of studio space in Montrose? How much would that be worth or would a buyer then have to buy or rent property elsewhere in order to transmit?
    How exactly do you sell 2FM?


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    #2
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    You're buying a high profile brand, radio is very flexible as a medium. So moving the sound out of Montrose is hardly a big or expensive deal.

    The biggest problem would be the legacy wages, so you'd need to fire and re-hire to get the new 2FM off to a good start.


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    #3
    Zird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Zird


    flazio wrote: »
    I don't mean costs, I mean if RTÉ were to go about selling 2FM what exactly would a buyer be getting? Ownership of studio space in Montrose? How much would that be worth or would a buyer then have to buy or rent property elsewhere in order to transmit?
    How exactly do you sell 2FM?

    It's the 90/92 space on the FM band that would be valuable. I'm sure maybe wireless group would be interested in the opportunity of having an national station.


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    #4
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    How valuable is the FM band now though?

    Every phone and other digital devices can stream radio. People who "pay as they go" won't use it much except when in free (or already paid for) wifi zones but the mobile market will move towards ever cheaper packages per gig of data consumed.


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    #5
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    the transmission network, or even just the frequencies, along with the branding.
    the branding wouldn't be wanted though, and it would be stupidity of the highest order to sell off the frequencies and transmission network when we actually wouldn't get anything new, and when there are other options for services for rte to provide.
    let the BAI and comreg sort out frequencies if another commercial national station is really warrented.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    2FMs JNLR's are poor.


    Advertising via radio is declining, and unlikely to recover.



    2fm's largely a sink hole not providing any Public broadcasting purpose (as apposed to Lyric) and if you could sell it off as a going concern without any right to licence fee money you'd be doing very good business for the state if you got €1.00.


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    #7
    Zird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Zird


    It is extraordinary that 2fm has been completely protected from any of the cuts announced today.


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    #8
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,989 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Deleted User wrote: »
    2FMs JNLR's are poor.


    Advertising via radio is declining, and unlikely to recover.



    2fm's largely a sink hole not providing any Public broadcasting purpose (as apposed to Lyric) and if you could sell it off as a going concern without any right to licence fee money you'd be doing very good business for the state if you got €1.00.

    not really as you would be taking frequencies from the state/people/rte that actually could provide another service that would meet the public service remit.
    if anyone was to buy it as a going concern it would just be for another pop music station so while a few quid might be made it would only be quite likely short term gain for more of the same that is already being provided which would be pointeless tbh.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #9
    ford fiesta
    Registered Users Posts: 3,431 ✭✭✭ford fiesta


    Zird wrote: »
    It is extraordinary that 2fm has been completely protected from any of the cuts announced today.

    And raidio na gaeltachta


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    #10
    Losty Dublin
    Registered Users Posts: 12,994 ✭✭✭✭Losty Dublin


    Zird wrote: »
    It is extraordinary that 2fm has been completely protected from any of the cuts announced today.

    As stations go 2FM is actually financially lean and hasn't got a lot on it to cut. It has very few permanent staff on it's payroll and most of it's old school names who were on copious salaries have long departed. It's news operation runs slim and costs next to nothing to staff; if anything it's too slim. Bar selling off the station I don't know what sort of cuts that RTÉ could make to it.


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    #11
    Zird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Zird


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    As stations go 2FM is actually financially lean and hasn't got a lot on it to cut. It has very few permanent staff on it's payroll and most of it's old school names who were on copious salaries have long departed. It's news operation runs slim and costs next to nothing to staff; if anything it's too slim. Bar selling off the station I don't know what sort of cuts that RTÉ could make to it.

    It could do what other loss making stations like 4fm and sunshine had to do, have only a handful of presenters on the entire schedule doing 4/5 hour shifts 7 days a week.


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    #12
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,426 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    Its a loss making company, what would you sell it for? A Euro?


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    #13
    KildareP
    Registered Users Posts: 1,445 ✭✭✭KildareP


    Losty Dublin wrote: »
    As stations go 2FM is actually financially lean and hasn't got a lot on it to cut. It has very few permanent staff on it's payroll and most of it's old school names who were on copious salaries have long departed. It's news operation runs slim and costs next to nothing to staff; if anything it's too slim. Bar selling off the station I don't know what sort of cuts that RTÉ could make to it.

    As a commercial entity it is a basket case - all else being equal it's a station that, on a purely commercial basis, would have accumulated losses in excess of €50m over the last 8 years if you look through their annual reports:
    https://about.rte.ie/reports-and-policies/annual-reports/

    Not a hope any company anywhere could sustain that sort of funding long term so it is of absolutely no commercial value whatsoever.

    Which then begs the question - what public service value does it have to warrant keeping it operating as it is now? Radio 1, RnaG and Lyric FM I can think of value straight away that warrants license fee subvention - but 2FM?

    It has no clear PSB objective and is completely unworkable as a commercial entity - so how can it continue in its current guise?


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    #14
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zird wrote: »
    It could do what other loss making stations like 4fm and sunshine had to do, have only a handful of presenters on the entire schedule doing 4/5 hour shifts 7 days a week.

    Pretty sure Sunshine is going gangbusters. They are an example of a company that kept it lean and latched onto a decent market share.


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    #15
    EmmetSpiceland
    Registered Users Posts: 10,552 ✭✭✭✭EmmetSpiceland


    Considering it’s an arm of a semi-state body a minister would have to notify an “interested party”, for a small fee, before anything could get moving.

    The tide is turning…



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    #16
    Declan A Walsh
    Registered Users Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭Declan A Walsh


    Or...

    Don't sell it. Rebrand it as RTE Gold.
    https://forumofgames.com/




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    #17
    KildareP
    Registered Users Posts: 1,445 ✭✭✭KildareP


    Declan A Walsh wrote: »
    Or...

    Don't sell it. Rebrand it as RTE Gold.

    I'd love to see 2FM become RTÉ Gold - closest comparison would be a hybrid BBCR2 and BBCR6. But music driven shows are music driven - not the current 2FM craic of having a presenter, a researcher/entertainment correspondent, a producer and a BCO for every show on the schedule.

    And then fold the pop music aspect of 2FM into Raidio na Gaeltachta to try and build its audience and make it more generally received beyond the Gaeltacht.


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    #18
    Harry Palmr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Someone should be tapping into the latent demand for wall to wall retro music with minimal chat


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    #19
    Lovenova
    Closed Accounts Posts: 30 ✭Lovenova


    Zird wrote: »
    It is extraordinary that 2fm has been completely protected from any of the cuts announced today.

    I absolutely agree - 2fm has no unique selling point and big buck days are gone. There is zero public service remit in it and it could be sold or closed . Long time since it was even very popular . Think days of big salaries in 2fm are gone from what I’ve heard . Lyric is at least providing unique content from an Irish broadcaster .


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    #20
    KReid
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭KReid


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    You're buying a high profile brand, radio is very flexible as a medium. So moving the sound out of Montrose is hardly a big or expensive deal.

    The biggest problem would be the legacy wages, so you'd need to fire and re-hire to get the new 2FM off to a good start.

    It would be a fairly sizeable job moving it from Montrose though, you'd need to build a state of the art of studio(s) elsewhere in the country, maybe Dublin would be costly. The in house technology would cost a lot too. Another possible area which would be an expense is say "Wireless" bought the License, they would have to rent Transmission sights around the country to broadcast the frequency on. Honestly it seems like a logistical nightmare in the short term.


    On a side note, do RTE have to apply for the License 2FM have like other commercial stations? If so they may decide not to bother next time it rolls around.


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    #21
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,816 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    How would you sell it? Firstly sort out the issue that it isn't commercially licenced as KReid has pointed out above! This may require primary legislation.

    You would come up with draught proposals for transitional provision of:

    * Studio space
    * Transmission capacity - involving 2RN here
    * News/sports/weather
    * Any other shared services - a new purchaser may want engineers and admin staff for a period of time and not hire them permanently. There's streaming platforms, the OB vehicles may be pooled, etc.
    * Licence for the RTE name, if required for any period of time by the purchaser
    * (edited in) Ad sales - there will be ads already sold to run across stations or with TV/RTE.ie elements in them. RTE may want to try offer themselves as the sales house for any purchaser going forward; but if it was sold to Communicorp or Wireless who *have* a sales house; or someone like the Irish Times who own other stations, or Post Publications who also have a sales house, they would probably not want it.

    And be prepared to negotiate on all of them.

    You would also need to split contracts for any dual TV and radio staff, with their cost to 2FM very specific and clear and paid separately.

    A buyer is unlikely to want to retain the full broadcast footprint on 2RN; TodayFM do not use the full 2RN network for instance and other wide broadcast area stations often use very limited amounts of, if any, 2RN towers.





    There is precedence for a state broadcaster selling a bit off before - TF1 in France for instance.


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    #22
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,816 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Pretty sure Sunshine is going gangbusters. They are an example of a company that kept it lean and latched onto a decent market share.

    Sunshine (Star Broadcasting Ltd) made about 330k profit in 2017 and 400k in 2018; but its just cutting away at an accumulated loss over still over 4m!

    That is a very solid performance considering nearly nobody else is making any money at all.


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    #23
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    L1011 wrote: »
    Sunshine (Star Broadcasting Ltd) made about 330k profit in 2017 and 400k in 2018; but its just cutting away at an accumulated loss over still over 4m!


    Accumulated losses at least shelter profits. :)


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    #24
    funnyname
    Registered Users Posts: 1,744 ✭✭✭funnyname


    Declan A Walsh wrote: »
    Or...

    Don't sell it. Rebrand it as RTE Gold.

    Or as a national Rock station


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    #25
    Heart Break Kid
    Registered Users Posts: 834 ✭✭✭Heart Break Kid


    Is it not the radio license that they’d really be buying, really expensive and near impossible to get.


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    #26
    KReid
    Registered Users Posts: 178 ✭✭KReid


    L1011 wrote: »
    How would you sell it? Firstly sort out the issue that it isn't commercially licenced as KReid has pointed out above! This may require primary legislation.

    You would come up with draught proposals for transitional provision of:

    * Studio space
    * Transmission capacity - involving 2RN here
    * News/sports/weather
    * Any other shared services - a new purchaser may want engineers and admin staff for a period of time and not hire them permanently. There's streaming platforms, the OB vehicles may be pooled, etc.
    * Licence for the RTE name, if required for any period of time by the purchaser
    * (edited in) Ad sales - there will be ads already sold to run across stations or with TV/RTE.ie elements in them. RTE may want to try offer themselves as the sales house for any purchaser going forward; but if it was sold to Communicorp or Wireless who *have* a sales house; or someone like the Irish Times who own other stations, or Post Publications who also have a sales house, they would probably not want it.

    And be prepared to negotiate on all of them.

    You would also need to split contracts for any dual TV and radio staff, with their cost to 2FM very specific and clear and paid separately.

    A buyer is unlikely to want to retain the full broadcast footprint on 2RN; TodayFM do not use the full 2RN network for instance and other wide broadcast area stations often use very limited amounts of, if any, 2RN towers.





    There is precedence for a state broadcaster selling a bit off before - TF1 in France for instance.



    Ye that all sounds a bout right, a nightmare for a potential buyer.

    So the license is just handed to them for as long as they want it?

    Would it be possible for RTE to decide, they don't want to operate it anymore and begin to wind it down over a 2 year period or something, that way they would be able to continue previously agreed sponsorship and then offer redundancies to staff who want to leave, or move them to other departments.}

    While that's happening, the license could be tendered out to others, so there's no legacy of name or staff to carry over, surely Wireless/Communicorp or another would be more likely to take on the license if it wasn't tied to RTE, and was a fresh start for a national "youth" license.

    Not sure if any of that is possible, but it would seem a more plausible way to do it.

    **Competition rules might not allow Communcorp to own another National Station though, nor would they want to compete with it's other brands**


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    #27
    Zird
    Closed Accounts Posts: 70 ✭✭Zird


    RTE use 2fm as an example of something they have for the youth when they are criticised for not doing anything for young People.


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    #28
    maxwell smart
    Registered Users Posts: 1,939 ✭✭✭maxwell smart


    Zird wrote: »
    RTE use 2fm as an example of something they have for the youth when they are criticised for not doing anything for young People.

    I don't think the youth listen to the radio, they all want on demand streaming of music and videos.

    As mentioned earlier, the best thing is for 2FM to be wound down over a 2 year period. It reallt serves no purpose other than increasing the profile of it's presenters.


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    #29
    ednwireland
    Registered Users Posts: 14,307 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    Harry Palmr wrote: »
    You're buying a high profile brand, radio is very flexible as a medium. So moving the sound out of Montrose is hardly a big or expensive deal.

    The biggest problem would be the legacy wages, so you'd need to fire and re-hire to get the new 2FM off to a good start.

    you cant buy a business fire everyone and the rehire people on lower wages to do the same job. i suspect something like TUPE might come into play. if a business is transfered as an ongoing concern, you are transfered with all your service and T's & c's intact.

    funny how people dont know the law

    My weather

    https://www.ecowitt.net/home/share?authorize=96CT1F



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    #30
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,816 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    KReid wrote: »
    So the license is just handed to them for as long as they want it?

    Effectively yes, but its not a normal licence the same as a commercial station has, so...
    KReid wrote: »
    Would it be possible for RTE to decide, they don't want to operate it anymore and begin to wind it down over a 2 year period or something, that way they would be able to continue previously agreed sponsorship and then offer redundancies to staff who want to leave, or move them to other departments.}

    While that's happening, the license could be tendered out to others, so there's no legacy of name or staff to carry over, surely Wireless/Communicorp or another would be more likely to take on the license if it wasn't tied to RTE, and was a fresh start for a national "youth" license.

    Not sure if any of that is possible, but it would seem a more plausible way to do it.

    ...while this is all possible if the will is there, it would require significant political effort if not legislation as a third national commercial licence would need to be defined.

    There is a potential positive side effect of that, in that the existing transmitter and frequency plan for 2FM is old. Not sure how old, but it could easily be mid 70s. Transmitters are a lot cleaner these days and you don't need as much frequency spacing so some spectrum could be released while retaining the same coverage as currently. A new station with no carry-over would have no reason to retain the old frequency plan; and likely wouldn't even be on the same towers throughout anyway.


    If what was offered was specifically a youth station there could actually be no suitable bidders. Buying the existing one, in whatever poor condition its in, gives a better chance of making it profitable again than starting afresh in a falling market.


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