New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 10:24am

Russman wrote: »

Ultimately people are more selfish now than ever before, and Joe Bloggs wants to be playing a New Forest, Tulfarris, Rathsallagh etc for €15 much more than he wants a Beech Park, Slade Valley, Castlewarden etc for €20.

One of the things that I think needs to happen is that golfers who came to the game, say in their 30s need to be convinced or persuaded of the benefits of being a member of a club, in terms of stuff like inter-club, friendships, trying to get cut, lots of intangibles. One thing I've noticed in the last 10 years or so, is that lots of guys (not all, obviously) who took up golf in their late 20s / 30s, for whatever reason have no interest in any of these things, broadly speaking they just want a game of golf on a Saturday with their 3 mates on as good a course as possible.
Nothing wrong with this, they're perfectly entitled to that, but if they opened up to the other benefits of being an active club member I feel they'd be more likely to stay in a club rather than chase deals each season going from club to club.

Nothing wrong with it at all, but they should be paying something much much closer to what it costs to provide this to them, perhaps then they will look at membership somewhere.
When you can get membership quality golf for open fees there is a problem.

golfwallah wrote: »

Fingal County Council Public Golf Courses such as Corballis & Elm Green reported losses of €610,000 for 3 years up to 2010.

Not only are these golf courses generating direct operating losses but they have additional hidden subsidies in the form of non payment of rates, free road signage, use of council staff to “help out”, etc. However, the most significant subsidy is free debt load (share of FCC total debt on 31/12/2012 = €457.1m) to service accumulated losses, new course construction, redesign / reconstruction of Corballis (in 2009 by Nicklaus Design Services) and yearly spend on capital improvements.

I have estimated that Fingal Co. Co. continues to subsidise these loss makers to the tune of an estimated €300,000 per annum each when you take account of all hidden costs.

Council employees can avail of reduced charges to play golf at these establishments.

The revenues and expenditures associated with FCC golf courses are almost impossible to isolate in the public record as they are buried in the FCC Recreation & Amenity spending budget, as published on its website. Information on the golf spend only filters out in response to very rare councillors’ questions, such as those raised by councillor Dennison in 2010 (http://www.kierandennison.com/2010/04/council-golf-courses-deep-in-red.html).

I would prefer to see the money used to subsidize the golf facilities preferred by the County Manager going toward improving more generally used amenities such as parks, beaches, swimming pools, playgrounds, GAA, Soccer and Rugby playing fields.

As a first step towards openness and transparency, FCC should clearly identify how much is being spent on each major sporting activity in their published budgets and accounts.

All the above prompts the question: Why is FCC so afraid that citizens will find out how much they are spending on golf compared to other facilities?

Still have such a problem with FCC, to the point of posting the exact same paragraphs 3 years later?

Why should FCC clearly identify anything?
If its so difficult to distinguish the golf related spending why do you think its so much?

You are conveniently ignoring the value that has been built up in these assets, how much do you think the courses in FCC are worth?

How much of a loss do the health facilities in Fingal make, I presume you want them closed down also to support private healthcare facilities?

Russman wrote: »

But how could they afford it ?
And fund it going forward ? The point is that these NAMA courses would not be viable if they weren't being subsidised. Joe Bloggs would get his game for €15 but it would be on a very different course, fairways not cut, poor bunkers etc. Most "average" type member courses couldn't afford the size of green keeping team required. IMO Joe has unrealistic expectations.

Exactly. Joe and his mates have been spoiled by the boom time opens and now expect Castleknock type facilities for €15 on a Saturday afternoon.

Joe needs to cop on and realise that this isnt possible. however, Joe is naturally a selfish bugger and will take whatever is available, hence the GUI needs to step in and prevent the exploitation.

Joe and friends can still play casual golf if they want to, in public courses or non competition greenfees.
If they want to play competitive golf the need to join a local club and support it and golf in general. Posting a letter is not support.

PARlance · 27-08-2014 11:34am

I'd love to know where the €300,000 comes from.
Maybe it's like the 7,000 members in a 1,700 member club... Exaggerated.

Afaik, the likes of Corballis & Elm Green are rented from the CC for a fee from Carr Golf, and Carr take ownership/risk for the income and expedite re with the Council getting a rent in return.
Open to correction on that one but I know this is the case with Grange Castle, the course is rented from the council by Target Golf and the council no
longer provide green keepers etc.

They may have been a "drain" on the public coffers previously, but I think Greebo put it better by saying they were investing in an asset. (As with everything public, I'm sure there was plenty of wastage... Not a golf issue ).

PARlance · 27-08-2014 11:51am

And if you want to look at funding for Golf... The amount golf clubs get is disgracefully small.

40million was given by the government this year to local sports org's. The list of them and amounts received is linked in this article.
http://m.independent.ie/sport/government-announces-405m-in-funding-for-900-sports-clubs-nationwide-30404690.html
The only golf club I spotted receiving a grant was the hometown golf club of the minister... It must be also noted that Mayo didn't get any disproportionate levels of funding though

Why aren't golf clubs getting a piece of this pie? The onus is on them.

The sports council grants are just as bad, with Basketball and Cricket taking in more than golf.

The soccer team I played for as a kid has a cracking clubhouse, two superb pitches, astro turf pitches, a 200-300 seater stand for the main pitch... And there are barely 300 people in the village!!!
They are proactive and fought hard for funding. Very little I see about golf is proactive. Golfers and golf clubs will concern themselves with 1,700 members availing of cheap membership when around 50,000 golfers have disappeared in the last 7 years.

Golf in Ireland needs to get out of the golfing mantra of focusing on the next shot... There's a bigger picture that is barely being looked at.

golfwallah · 27-08-2014 11:53am

Russman wrote: »

Why should a private club publish their results ? Its nobody's business but their own how they are doing.

All limited companies are required to submit their audited accounts to the Companies Registration Office (CRO) - It's the law of the land.

So golf clubs that are formed as limited companies (usually by guarantee) have to do this, although, to my knowledge, clubs formed as trusts do not (as their liability is unlimited).

Anyone can obtain a copy of the audited accounts online from the CRO for a fee of around €2.50.

IMHO council run clubs are not a significant threat to member clubs, and never have been. NAMA clubs are clearly a different matter and are arguably one of the biggest factors in the current difficulties facing member owned clubs (that, and mortgages for clubhouses). A small member owned club simply cannot compete with a subsidised NAMA facility on pretty much any measurable level, the course will be bigger and more modern, green fees will be equivalent or cheaper, there will likely be a practice ground, guaranteed restaurant/bar facilities etc. Its a massive distorting factor and all the goodwill and professionalism in the world will not get rid of that.

In North County Dublin, NAMA courses provide far less competition than the council ones. But that's really not the point - these subsidised courses are here to stay for some time to come. So, with declining revenues, the choices are to compete, slash costs to the bone or wait until your bankers or creditors force you to act.

Ultimately people are more selfish now than ever before, and Joe Bloggs wants to be playing a New Forest, Tulfarris, Rathsallagh etc for €15 much more than he wants a Beech Park, Slade Valley, Castlewarden etc for €20.

Didn't think Rathsallagh was in NAMA, but as I said these courses are more in competition with clubs in South Dublin, Kildare and Wicklow rather than North Co. Dublin. I don't see that people are more selfish than before - they are just prioritising their spending as always but in recession have less to spend, particularly on discretionary stuff like golf.

One of the things that I think needs to happen is that golfers who came to the game, say in their 30s need to be convinced or persuaded of the benefits of being a member of a club, in terms of stuff like inter-club, friendships, trying to get cut, lots of intangibles. One thing I've noticed in the last 10 years or so, is that lots of guys (not all, obviously) who took up golf in their late 20s / 30s, for whatever reason have no interest in any of these things, broadly speaking they just want a game of golf on a Saturday with their 3 mates on as good a course as possible.

Agreed - but clubs still need these guys and hope they will become more involved when their circumstances permit.

Nothing wrong with this, they're perfectly entitled to that, but if they opened up to the other benefits of being an active club member I feel they'd be more likely to stay in a club rather than chase deals each season going from club to club.

Agreed. However, my experience is that it is virtually impossible to get people to spend more time at the club for family and other reasons. Also, it's also up to club management to figure out ways to make their club more appealing to the "missing generation". I guess this will happen over time and as more of the older members just fade away.

Russman · 27-08-2014 12:11pm

golfwallah wrote: »

All limited companies are required to submit their audited accounts to the Companies Registration Office (CRO) - It's the law of the land.

So golf clubs that are formed as limited companies (usually by guarantee) have to do this, although, to my knowledge, clubs formed as trusts do not (as their liability is unlimited).

Anyone can obtain a copy of the audited accounts online from the CRO for a fee of around €2.50.

Didn't think Rathsallagh was in NAMA, but as I said these courses are more in competition with clubs in South Dublin, Kildare and Wicklow rather than North Co. Dublin. I don't see that people are more selfish than before - they are just prioritising their spending as always but in recession have less to spend, particularly on discretionary stuff like golf.
.

I know about filing requirements, maybe I should have said, why should a golf club be a limited company ? But it's not even that, it was more in reference to your point on transparency, a private club that is not a company has no need to be transparent about anything, other than to its members.

Rathsallagh may well not be in NAMA, I meant that type/style of golf course, big, relatively modern, almost "resort type" setups that are currently offering cheap as chips green fees.

blackwhite · 27-08-2014 12:14pm

PARlance wrote: »

And if you want to look at funding for Golf... The amount golf clubs get is disgracefully small.

40million was given by the government this year to local sports org's. The list of them and amounts received is linked in this article.
http://m.independent.ie/sport/government-announces-405m-in-funding-for-900-sports-clubs-nationwide-30404690.html
The only golf club I spotted receiving a grant was the hometown golf club of the minister... It must be also noted that Mayo didn't get any disproportionate levels of funding though

Why aren't golf clubs getting a piece of this pie? The onus is on them.

The sports council grants are just as bad, with Basketball and Cricket taking in more than golf.

The soccer team I played for as a kid has a cracking clubhouse, two superb pitches, astro turf pitches, a 200-300 seater stand for the main pitch... And there are barely 300 people in the village!!!
They are proactive and fought hard for funding. Very little I see about golf is proactive. Golfers and golf clubs will concern themselves with 1,700 members availing of cheap membership when around 50,000 golfers have disappeared in the last 7 years.

Golf in Ireland needs to get out of the golfing mantra of focusing on the next shot... There's a bigger picture that is barely being looked at.

Naas and Longford also got funding.

golfwallah · 27-08-2014 12:31pm

PARlance wrote: »

I'd love to know where the €300,000 comes from.
Maybe it's like the 7,000 members in a 1,700 member club... Exaggerated.

Figures I extrapolated a few years ago from publicly available information in relation to the year 2011 for Corballis were:

Based on Published Losses 2007 - 9 (€220,112) €73,371
Add estimated hidden costs:
Rates €22,667
Road signage €2,000
FCC charge (unpaid) for advert sign at Corballis roundabout €1,000
FCC Parks Dept Staff - temporarily diverted €80,000
Capital Injection Fingal (not depreciated) €120,000
Interest on accumulated losses financed from FCC Debt. unknown
Total €299,038

Afaik, the likes of Corballis & Elm Green are rented from the CC for a fee from Carr Golf, and Carr take ownership/risk for the income and expedite re with the Council getting a rent in return.
Open to correction on that one but I know this is the case with Grange Castle, the course is rented from the council by Target Golf and the council no longer provide green keepers etc.

Don't know precisely how it works since Carr took over, but Fingal do operate independently of South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire / Rathdown, etc. The problem is that information on golf spending is not readily available in FCC published accounts, it's aggregated with all other spending. This makes it extremely difficult to get comparative information, unless in answer to specific questions by councillors, which last happened in 2010, AFAIK.

They may have been a "drain" on the public coffers previously, but I think Greebo put it better by saying they were investing in an asset. (As with everything public, I'm sure there was plenty of wastage... Not a golf issue ).

All golf clubs have invested in assets, that doesn't mean they will stay in business forever.

PARlance · 27-08-2014 12:32pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Naas and Longford also got funding.

Indeed they are, I missed Naas and I usually bypass Longford anyway

Still a very poor showing and only represents about 0.25% of the funding pot for golf.... With about 4 or 5% of people here playing golf, that's without factoring in the importance of golf to tourism or without factoring in that the GAA have another big internal pot that gets distributed as well.

Slightly off topic question, but is there any club in the country that has indoor practice facilities?

Looking through all those grants, I can't see why there aren't any such facilities.

Shed/Hall with a large artificial (obviously

) putting green, a little chipping area if possible, a few nets or even a golf simulator or two (about 10grand a pop) could be easily squeezed into a high % of courses.
Funding for such capital projects could be easily attained.
If a facility like that was on offer, I'd guess that clubs would see the number of juniors rocket.
To have areas like that were young kids could go for an hour or two each weekend (especially over the winter) an participate in skill challenges etc. would change the face of golf imo.

golfwallah · 27-08-2014 12:38pm

Russman wrote: »

I know about filing requirements, maybe I should have said, why should a golf club be a limited company ? But it's not even that, it was more in reference to your point on transparency, a private club that is not a company has no need to be transparent about anything, other than to its members.

Rathsallagh may well not be in NAMA, I meant that type/style of golf course, big, relatively modern, almost "resort type" setups that are currently offering cheap as chips green fees.

There are obvious advantages to being a company limited by guarantee. It limits the liability of members in the event of a wind up, usually to about €1. But it doesn't limit the liability of directors, who often don't realise that they could be found personally liable if liabilities exceed assets in the event of a wind up. Hasn't happened as yet on the Irish golfing scene but remains a possibility.

And there's nothing to prevent "resort" or any type of golf course charging anything they like for green fees - that's just business!

alxmorgan · 27-08-2014 12:40pm

PARlance wrote: »

Indeed they are, I missed Naas and I usually bypass Longford anyway
Still a very poor showing and only represents about 0.25% of the funding pot for golf.... With about 4 or 5% of people here playing golf, that's without factoring in the importance of golf to tourism or without factoring in that the GAA have another big internal pot that gets distributed as well.

Slightly off topic question, but is there any club in the country that has indoor practice facilities?

Looking through all those grants, I can't see why there aren't any such facilities.

Shed/Hall with a large artificial (obviously ) putting green, a little chipping area if possible, a few nets or even a golf simulator or two (about 10grand a pop) could be easily squeezed into a high % of courses.
Funding for such capital projects could be easily attained.
If a facility like that was on offer, I'd guess that clubs would see the number of juniors rocket.
To have areas like that were young kids could go for an hour or two each weekend (especially over the winter) an participate in skill challenges etc. would change the face of golf imo.

Kids would have to queue behind us

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 12:45pm

golfwallah wrote: »

Figures I extrapolated a few years ago from publicly available information in relation to the year 2011 for Corballis were:

Based on Published Losses 2007 - 9 (€220,112) €73,371
Add estimated hidden costs:
Rates €22,667
Road signage €2,000
FCC charge (unpaid) for advert sign at Corballis roundabout €1,000
FCC Parks Dept Staff - temporarily diverted €80,000
Capital Injection Fingal (not depreciated) €120,000
Interest on accumulated losses financed from FCC Debt. unknown
Total €299,038

So your extrapolated figures assume that they undertake the same works year on year?

golfwallah wrote: »

The problem is that information on golf spending is not readily available in FCC published accounts, it's aggregated with all other spending. This makes it extremely difficult to get comparative information, unless in answer to specific questions by councillors, which last happened in 2010, AFAIK.

What problem is this causing? Other than to you?

golfwallah wrote: »

All golf clubs have invested in assets, that doesn't mean they will stay in business forever.

Council courses are not in it to make money, they are there to provide a service to the public. I think you are really missing this most basic of points.
Public courses will close when there is no need for them or funding is removed, not because they are not making enough money.

golfwallah · 27-08-2014 12:55pm

GreeBo wrote: »

So your extrapolated figures assume that they undertake the same works year on year?

No - I said these figures were estimated in relation to 2011. If you want year on year figures, I suggest you do the research yourself.

What problem is this causing? Other than to you?

It's a matter of opinion, really. IMHO, democracy works best when the electorate is in a position to make informed decisions at election time.

Council courses are not in it to make money, they are there to provide a service to the public. I think you are really missing this most basic of points.
Public courses will close when there is no need for them or funding is removed, not because they are not making enough money.

Member courses are not in it to make money either, most were set up by interested golfers to help themselves in the provision of golf facilities - i.e. self help. They too will go out of business if there is no need for them - the difference is they can't keep going on indefinitely like council ones, thanks to government backed borrowings.

PARlance · 27-08-2014 12:58pm

golfwallah wrote: »

Figures I extrapolated a few years ago from publicly available information in relation to the year 2011 for Corballis were:

Based on Published Losses 2007 - 9 (€220,112) €73,371
Add estimated hidden costs:
Rates €22,667
Road signage €2,000
FCC charge (unpaid) for advert sign at Corballis roundabout €1,000
FCC Parks Dept Staff - temporarily diverted €80,000
Capital Injection Fingal (not depreciated) €120,000
Interest on accumulated losses financed from FCC Debt. unknown
Total €299,038

Don't know precisely how it works since Carr took over, but Fingal do operate independently of South Dublin, Dun Laoghaire / Rathdown, etc. The problem is that information on golf spending is not readily available in FCC published accounts, it's aggregated with all other spending. This makes it extremely difficult to get comparative information, unless in answer to specific questions by councillors, which last happened in 2010, AFAIK.

All golf clubs have invested in assets, that doesn't mean they will stay in business forever.

So you know that Corballis didn't pay for a road sign at a roundabout 4 years ago but you don't know the general jist of the overall arrangement between Carr and the Council today.
Seems odd.
Seems almost as if today's arrangement may not be something you can complain about.
The sign at the roundabout has been taken down afaik. It's funny because Corballis is probably the worst sign posted course I've been to. The only sign I recall is a sign 10 feet away from the main entrance to it.

It must have been hard working in one of the two courses close by. I'm guessing it was The Island but I can see how two other clubs locally might feel aggrieved by (what seems to be past) public funding.

That's just unfortunate. You're not getting much support your anti public talk. There are pitches, pools, courts etc all being built and maintained by the council. Begrudging a few public courses is narrow minded due to your "close" relationship to/with them.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 1:02pm

golfwallah wrote: »

No - I said these figures were estimated in relation to 2011. If you want year on year figures, I suggest you do the research yourself.

I dont, I'm merely pointing out that the numbers you repeat ad nausem include capital expenditure that isnt recurring, so its disingneous to suggest that they are running at 300K deficit year on year.

golfwallah wrote: »

It's a matter of opinion, really. IMHO, democracy works best when the electorate is in a position to make informed decisions at election time.

Yes, ballot papers should also itemise money spent on beer mats in the bar, for transparency sake.

golfwallah wrote: »

Member courses are not in it to make money either, most were set up by interested golfers to help themselves in the provision of golf facilities - i.e. self help. They too will go out of business if there is no need for them - the difference is they can't keep going on indefinitely like council ones, thanks to government backed borrowings.

And private courses aren't in it to provide cheap golf to all and sundry like council courses *must*.
Apples and oranges.

Dublin Spur · 27-08-2014 1:19pm

I think its a harsh on the country members (like the original poster) who have been forced down this road due to personal circumstances

live and let live

Russman · 27-08-2014 1:21pm

golfwallah wrote: »

There are obvious advantages to being a company limited by guarantee. It limits the liability of members in the event of a wind up, usually to about €1. But it doesn't limit the liability of directors, who often don't realise that they could be found personally liable if liabilities exceed assets in the event of a wind up. Hasn't happened as yet on the Irish golfing scene but remains a possibility.

And there's nothing to prevent "resort" or any type of golf course charging anything they like for green fees - that's just business!

Agreed. But when such courses are being subsidised and kept afloat by NAMA and then indulging in, what is to all intents and purposes, below cost selling, its distorting the market. Prices are artificially lowered to a level that clubs not being subsidised simply cannot compete with. That cannot be good for the golf scene in Ireland. It might be good in the short term for some individuals, but IMHO it will be disastrous in the long run.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 1:24pm

Dublin Spur wrote: »

I think its a harsh on the country members (like the original poster) who have been forced down this road due to personal circumstances

live and let live

Its only harsh if you never set foot in your home club, if so, in this age of non joining fees, why would you stay a member of a club you never play in except to keep a cheap GUI handicap?

downthemiddle · 27-08-2014 1:48pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its only harsh if you never set foot in your home club, if so, in this age of non joining fees, why would you stay a member of a club you never play in except to keep a cheap GUI handicap?

Because everybody has different economic circumstances. I'm sure you regard your club membership as very good value but not everyone would. There was a time when people regarded forking out 25k entrance fees as value for money also.
However not everyone is in that situation, people who once were able to afford these fees can no longer do so yet they still want to play golf. They will avail of any opportunity afforded to them to do so. Golfers who would otherwise be lost to the game are availing of membership offers so they can continue to play the game on a regular basis.

PARlance · 27-08-2014 2:07pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Its only harsh if you never set foot in your home club, if so, in this age of non joining fees, why would you stay a member of a club you never play in except to keep a cheap GUI handicap?

No joining fees doesn't mean it's affordable.
And not all golfers live in Dublin where we're lucky to have pay and play alternatives.
Many small towns have one club whose fees remain out of reach for many.

I think you're stance on this is quite hypocritical.
You've had posters before question / pass remarks on the fact that your club has a hefty joining fee and fairly expensive sub.
I've previously backed you up on the fact that there are many factors to justify that. Location, supply and demand, quality etc.
If you are going to have that attitude (which I completely agree with) then you should also accept that the same should be freely allowed at the bottom of the scale.
The same economic factors are at play, only at the opposite end.

You've mentioned (or agreed to the notion of) some minimal cost per round (I think it was yourself) rational previously. Should there be a maximum cost per round? I know quite a few in your club and down the road and their cost per round is well over €500....
Is that just too much?
Is this taking too much money of an individual for one club?
Should your club distribute this money to other clubs?
Should your club be allowed to do that, or should we all get a little communist and agree on the minimal price per round, and divy up the surpluses evenly?

All that is folly of course.

And if courses want to charge 100 euro then fair game. There's a demand for it and it's meeting that demand. Just like Grange is pricing according to its demand.

You can't have your cake and eat it.
Let the lads have their bread in peace, there's barely any butter on it.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 2:16pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Because everybody has different economic circumstances. I'm sure you regard your club membership as very good value but not everyone would. There was a time when people regarded forking out 25k entrance fees as value for money also.
However not everyone is in that situation, people who once were able to afford these fees can no longer do so yet they still want to play golf. They will avail of any opportunity afforded to them to do so. Golfers who would otherwise be lost to the game are availing of membership offers so they can continue to play the game on a regular basis.

I know not everyone is in that situation, but what that means right now is that these people are getting competition golf for less than it costs to provide it.
What it should mean is that these people dont get competition golf. That may sound harsh and even count intuitive, but long term I think its more sustainable.
Thats how the game used to be, people played casually, played in feeder clubs, joined clubs as members and played golf. Nowadays its nomadic golf that only benefits the player themselves.

PARlance wrote: »

No joining fees doesn't mean it's affordable.
And not all golfers live in Dublin where we're lucky to have pay and play alternatives.
Many small towns have one club whose fees remain out of reach for many.

I think you're stance on this is quite hypocritical.
You've had posters before question / pass remarks on the fact that your club has a hefty joining fee and fairly expensive sub.
I've previously backed you up on the fact that there are many factors to justify that. Location, supply and demand, quality etc.
If you are going to have that attitude (which I completely agree with) then you should also accept that the same should be freely allowed at the bottom of the scale.
The same economic factors are at play, only at the opposite end.

I dont see how its hypocritcal to expect golfers to support and pay for their golf?
Courses should be free to charge as little or as much as they want, thats the open market and is in the bests interests of the game.
Courses selling GUI handicaps is not in the bests interests of the game.

PARlance wrote: »

You've mentioned (or agreed to the notion of) some minimal cost per round (I think it was yourself) rational previously. Should there be a maximum cost per round? I know quite a few in your club and down the road and their cost per round is well over €500....
Is that just too much?
Is this taking too much money of an individual for one club?
Should your club distribute this money to other clubs?
Should your club be allowed to do that, or should we all get a little communist and agree on the minimal price per round, and divy up the surpluses evenly?

All that is folly of course.

And if courses want to charge 100 euro then fair game. There's a demand for it and it's meeting that demand. Just like Grange is pricing according to its demand.

You can't have your cake and eat it.
Let the lads have their bread in peace, there's barely any butter on it.

Why should there be a maximum? If people are willing/able to pay it then whats the problem?
The problem would be if the minimum keeps people from taking up the game, but that wont happen due to feeder clubs and someone somewhere having the ability to make money at the lower levels of the game. What you cant have is someone matching the upper levels for the lower level costs.

I dont see why on earth one club should be giving money to another club, unless perhaps its council run clubs. A private enterprise has no such loyalties or reason to give away money.

I really dont understand at all how you think I want to have my cake and eat it?
Can you explain?

downthemiddle · 27-08-2014 2:21pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I know not everyone is in that situation, but what that means right now is that these people are getting competition golf for less than it costs to provide it.
What it should mean is that these people dont get competition golf. That may sound harsh and even count intuitive, but long term I think its more sustainable.
Thats how the game used to be, people played casually, played in feeder clubs, joined clubs as members and played golf.

Golf used to be a game for the elite. If your approach was adopted that is what it would become again. That is hardly in the best interests of the game.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 2:23pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Golf used to be a game for the elite. If your approach was adopted that is what it would become again. That is hardly in the best interests of the game.

The elite of Deerpark, Leopardstown, Corbalis etc?

Top quality golf was a game for those than can afford top quality courses. What exactly is wrong with that?

Right now we are trying to provide top quality golf for rock bottom prices, problem is no one told the grass to stop growing at top quality rates.

PARlance · 27-08-2014 2:25pm

GreeBo wrote: »

I really dont understand at all how you think I want to have my cake and eat it?
Can you explain?

Very easily.
The laws of supply and demand should work for Grange as much as they do for Scarke (or whatever it's called).

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 2:26pm

PARlance wrote: »

Very easily.
The laws of supply and demand should work for Grange as much as they do for Scarke (or whatever it's called).

And how/why do you think they don't or why do you think I dont want them to?

FixdePitchmark · 27-08-2014 2:30pm

I have got a bit of sympathy for Golfwallah's position - but I think it is borne out of frustration with his own club's position as opposed to a correct Ideological position.

Back to the point I made earlier - these clubs didn't care one iota about Public golf until recently. Why is this now ?

Should the public have objected to some of the clubhouses and courses that were built and have now ended up as fields and bad debts that they are paying for. In some of these instances you could argue - the state should have controlled irresponsible spending - that they are now exposed to . But instead - we are told , well private individuals and courses made a balls of it - now shut down public courses . (laughable)

Sport is funded and supported in so many ways - Croke Park for example got 110 million euro. Minority sorts like Rugby and athletics get funding and state support.

There are over 400,000 people living in North Dublin.

You will struggle to find somebody on the North Side of Dublin - that didn't benefit from the Public Golf facilities. This is the greatest promoter of golf in Dublin in my view.

I would agree with closing all public golf facilities - if the GUI and golf clubs had a plan for promoting golf. But as long as I've been around golf - rather embarrassing for Golf - The state has done more for Golf than Golf has done for itself. Golf is confused - it is primarily a sport run by individuals for themselves - ultimately it is the cause of the slow death we are experiencing.

So yes - hard to justify investment in any sport - but is Golf able to promote itself - the answer is no.

has golf a social valve - it has for me , but is impossible to establish a value of this across all of society.

Interesting Article on golf in Dublin. Didn't know how much Pat Ruddy did for golf in Dublin - Legend.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/golf/ruddy-a-man-for-all-golf-seasons-26023903.html

PARlance · 27-08-2014 2:40pm

GreeBo wrote: »

And how/why do you think they don't or why do you think I dont want them to?

how/why.... Only the usual 30 or so posts.

There is a demand out there from golfers to play minimal membership of €100 and then to play Opens with the rest of their budget.
It's quite clear you are against that demand and the supply offered by Scarke etc. to meet that.

downthemiddle · 27-08-2014 2:40pm

GreeBo wrote: »

The elite of Deerpark, Leopardstown, Corbalis etc?

Top quality golf was a game for those than can afford top quality courses. What exactly is wrong with that?

Right now we are trying to provide top quality golf for rock bottom prices, problem is no one told the grass to stop growing at top quality rates.

Ah the good old days of people queueing from 5.00 a.m in Deer Park to get out on the course by midday because there was a dearth of affordable golf around Dublin and membership in most courses was closed at the time. Golf club membership was for the elite and a failure to recognise that is an admission you don't understand the debate. Newlands was known as the working man's club. A return to the cosy cartel is not in the best interests of golf.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 2:44pm

PARlance wrote: »

how/why.... Only the usual 30 or so posts.

There is a demand out there from golfers to play minimal membership of €100 and then to play Opens with the rest of their budget.
It's quite clear you are against that demand and the supply offered by Scarke etc. to meet that.

Yes I am against that as I believe it damages the sustainability of golf in this country. Realistically it makes zero impact to me, but I think its bad for the game and results in members clubs closing.

If the lower end clubs/courses close then you damage the uptake of the game. Novice golfers dont pop over to Rathsallagh to learn how to play.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 2:47pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Ah the good old days of people queueing from 5.00 a.m in Deer Park to get out on the course by midday because there was a dearth of affordable golf around Dublin and membership in most courses was closed at the time. Golf club membership was for the elite and a failure to recognise that is an admission you don't understand the debate. Newlands was known as the working man's club. A return to the cosy cartel is not in the best interests of golf.

Cosy cartel?
Seriously, bitter much?
How exactly is it the fault of private clubs, who were full, that people had to queue to play in public/open clubs?

Golf Club Membership in the highly populated areas was for those who could afford it.
You could pretty much always have joined the like of Dublin Mountain, Slade Valley, etc. I know all about Newlands golf club, whats wrong with it being a working mans club exactly?

Sounds like you want top quality courses for rock bottom prices...and Im the one accused of wanted to have my cake and eat it!

TrapperChamonix · 27-08-2014 2:50pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

There are over 400,000 people living in North Dublin.

You will struggle to find somebody on the North Side of Dublin - that didn't benefit from the Public Golf facilities. This is the greatest promoter of golf in Dublin in my view.

FDP, a couple of points.

1) You are overstating the reach of golf, never mind golf on public courses with that statement

2) I would maintain that the work that clubs put into their junior programs is by far the greatest promoter of golf in Dublin and the wider country. And for clarity, junior programs in my own club (and many if not most others) are open to all kids who turn up, whether they have a relative in the club or not. At an annual membership of €100 and with free lessons and a free meal at every junior competition, clubs and members are subsidising beginners.

Personally, I'm fully in favour of FCC subsidised Corballis and Elm Green etc, because like you I view them as a great way to widen the appeal and reach of Golf, but you are wrong in your assertion that The State does more for Golf that it does for itself, doesn't hold water.

btw nice article about Ruddy. It has always struck me that there can't be many places in the world with a better opportunity to play golf than Donabate. 5 Courses in a village of 9k.

downthemiddle · 27-08-2014 2:51pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Cosy cartel?
Seriously, bitter much?
How exactly is it the fault of private clubs, who were full, that people had to queue to play in public/open clubs?

Golf Club Membership in the highly populated areas was for those who could afford it.
You could pretty much always have joined the like of Dublin Mountain, Slade Valley, etc. I know all about Newlands golf club, whats wrong with it being a working mans club exactly?

Sounds like you want top quality courses for rock bottom prices...and Im the one accused of wanted to have my cake and eat it!

:rolleyes: Comprehension is obviously not a strong point with you or you are deliberating misinterpreting posts for your own reasons. I'm out.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 2:54pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

:rolleyes: Comprehension is obviously not a strong point with you or you are deliberating misinterpreting posts for your own reasons. I'm out.

Attack the post not the poster please.
If you cant attack the post then don't post at all.

PARlance · 27-08-2014 2:56pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Yes I am against that as I believe it damages the sustainability of golf in this country. Realistically it makes zero impact to me, but I think its bad for the game and results in members clubs closing.

If the lower end clubs/courses close then you damage the uptake of the game. Novice golfers dont pop over to Rathsallagh to learn how to play.

Well then you are against the free market forces that allow your club to command a premium. And that's hyproctical.

downthemiddle · 27-08-2014 3:02pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Attack the post not the poster please.
If you cant attack the post then don't post at all.

I did attack the post as you failed to comprehend the point I was making in your response. Would you care to read it again?

FixdePitchmark · 27-08-2014 3:15pm

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

FDP, a couple of points.

1) You are overstating the reach of golf, never mind golf on public courses with that statement

2) I would maintain that the work that clubs put into their junior programs is by far the greatest promoter of golf in Dublin and the wider country. And for clarity, junior programs in my own club (and many if not most others) are open to all kids who turn up, whether they have a relative in the club or not. At an annual membership of €100 and with free lessons and a free meal at every junior competition, clubs and members are subsidising beginners.

Personally, I'm fully in favour of FCC subsidised Corballis and Elm Green etc, because like you I view them as a great way to widen the appeal and reach of Golf, but you are wrong in your assertion that The State does more for Golf that it does for itself, doesn't hold water.

Trapper behind everything here , is that the problem. There are too many clubs in that area .

That is a fantastic idea at your club.
But I would honestly think that is radical / new thinking. I'm absolutely delighted to hear about it.

But, the damage has been over the last 20 years , in reality access to golf clubs and junior programs were for members and their families.

I pray and hope what you are saying is the way. I will be overjoyed when I get a flyer through the door from a golf club looking for lads to play golf.
I genuinly feel things are changing , but not enough or fast enough.

A couple of lads that are hanging around corners here , I gave them a few clubs, they went and start playing par 3 in St Annes (public park) - im sort of joking , but they cant rock up to Port. or Clontarf there . (lol).

In all my years around golf / public golf , i have never seen anything to promote golf except from the state.

I would be overjoyed if it happens, but my son can get a cadet program , because I got an email, because I am a member.

There is the pretence of an Open sport and there is the reality. I'm around golf , and it is useless at this versus every other sport in the area.

FixdePitchmark · 27-08-2014 3:33pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Ah the good old days of people queueing from 5.00 a.m in Deer Park to get out on the course by midday because there was a dearth of affordable golf around Dublin and membership in most courses was closed at the time. Golf club membership was for the elite and a failure to recognise that is an admission you don't understand the debate. Newlands was known as the working man's club. A return to the cosy cartel is not in the best interests of golf.

They crazy years, after getting a bus and a train, slade valley

does the bus go there.

The Tannoy Calls.
" number 64 for the nine 64 for the nine"

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 3:50pm

We have 1997 levels of GUI golfers (165,086) and yet just 4 clubs under the peak number (432)
Even then, the peak number of GUI golfers (210,028) were supported by "just" 413 clubs.

A long way to go yet lads.

*2013 figures

pete4pool · 27-08-2014 4:05pm

Been a couple of days since I checked the forum. Reading all the posts one thing that strikes me clearly is people from Dublin think there is nothing outside the city bounds. "Sure there are cheap membership in blanchardstown"or "sure there are plenty of council golf clubs to join". We all do not have these options.
Then people hijacking the thread to talk about how FCC is handling its golf courses.

OK rant over, will get shot down big time over that too :-) I'm harsh but I have a point. Don't want to turn this in to Dublin Vs rest, but can we keep the topic country wide.

Going back to the initial topic. Distance membership / affordable golf.

So from reading posts about the topic, here is a suggestion. So instead of paying €120 to Scarke to fill out a bit of paper work for me. How about the GUI come up with a Special "holiday/away" handicap. Works the same way as a normal handicap, you pay the GUI the €120 -> €150 and cut out the middle man. They bring in rules to do away with distance membership, so all golfers looking for this option go straight to the GUI. Local clubs then run their opens and they can decided if the opens are open to full members of other clubs or "away" member of GUI. If clubs find too many away member they can close the open or open it up if not enough playing.
GUI can say that you can only play 10 opens a year. So people are not abusing it.

Then €150 x 7,000 away member (supposedly from 1 club ) = €1 million. The GUI can give this money out to clubs who are failing / or have a high number of away members playing.

One person said that people who took up golf in 20's/30's don't like joining as full members. Could be because they were first unable to afford the entry fee and never got the bug of the handicap scores or team competitions. This could be a way to lead them back into it.

Just think the GUI could try something to get the "working man" (more like young family man) back into golf. I along with others have a picture of old rich guys at all of the GUI meeting thinking only of themselves. I know that is wrong, but lets face it most people think the same.

So what ye think of my suggestion? Will ye march with me to the GUI HQ? :-)

Russman · 27-08-2014 4:12pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

They crazy years, after getting a bus and a train, slade valley
does the bus go there.

Oh many's the time I walked to Templeogue, got the old 65 bus, off at the Blue Gardenia and walked up to Slade Valley carrying clubs !!

:)

FixdePitchmark · 27-08-2014 4:18pm

Russman wrote: »

Oh many's the time I walked to Templeogue, got the old 65 bus, off at the Blue Gardenia and walked up to Slade Valley carrying clubs !! :)

There is no "busses" down de country. So stop:D

lads in fairness, we have gone a distance membership off topic.

Agree , the forum is way too Dublin centric.

But has the internet hit Scarke.

alxmorgan · 27-08-2014 4:46pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

There is no "busses" down de country. So stop:D

lads in fairness, we have gone a distance membership off topic.

Agree , the forum is way too Dublin centric.

But has the internet hit Scarke.

Fore !!!!!

SaveOurLyric · 27-08-2014 7:11pm

PARlance wrote: »

There is a demand out there from golfers to play minimal membership of €100 and then to play Opens with the rest of their budget.
It's quite clear you are against that demand and the supply offered by Scarke etc. to meet that.

There is demand out there all right. But that does not justify tolerating something that is fundamentally not available without other bearing the rest of the true cost.

There is demand out there for using public transport without paying. And if there werent, barriers, inspectors, etc, people would do so. It is legitimate to impede people from doing that because it is not economic, or fair on those who do pay. The argument that 'the demand is there' or 'I cant afford to buy a ticket at the moment' is not justification for facilitating it.

SaveOurLyric · 27-08-2014 7:23pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Golf is confused - it is primarily a sport run by individuals for themselves - ultimately it is the cause of the slow death we are experiencing.

I wouldnt agree with the slow death idea.
Yes golf participation is declining. But that is due to various factors and death is not necessarily the destination.
Golf boomed in Ireland over the last 30 years for a variety of factors: primarily rising wealth as income levels in Ireland double to average Western European levels , and secondarily, the unprecedented and unsustainable bubble that was the Celtic Tiger with its grandiose development mania, social climbing, and ostentation. Other factors such as increased leisure time, a reduction in class barriers, and, the not insignificant factor of the prominence of one Mr. E Tont Woods Esq.
But fashions come and go, an increased range of leisure options, a correction to the bubble, harsh economic pressure being inflicted on a significant portion of society, the number golf players and clubs is redressing. And it will find a new, more sustainable natural level. But not death.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 7:34pm

PARlance wrote: »

Well then you are against the free market forces that allow your club to command a premium. And that's hyproctical.

Huh?

I'm not against free market forces.
What free market do you see that Im opposed to?

Distance memberships sustaining cheap as chips NAMA courses is not free market!

PARlance · 27-08-2014 7:37pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Huh?

I'm not against free market forces.
What free market do you see that Im opposed to?

Distance memberships sustaining cheap as chips NAMA courses is not free market!

Lol. Well done on working Nama in there.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 7:48pm

PARlance wrote: »

Lol. Well done on working Nama in there.

Im pretty sure that NAMA was brought into the thread long before my post.
Do you disagree that NAMA disrupts a free market?

PARlance · 27-08-2014 8:20pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Im pretty sure that NAMA was brought into the thread long before my post.
Do you disagree that NAMA disrupts a free market?

You're some man for your tangents when you want to wriggle out of something.
No part of my posts to you touched on Nama.

Just so you can have the last word....
Is the world flat?

First Up · 27-08-2014 8:58pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

There is demand out there all right. But that does not justify tolerating something that is fundamentally not available without other bearing the rest of the true cost.

There is demand out there for using public transport without paying. And if there werent, barriers, inspectors, etc, people would do so. It is legitimate to impede people from doing that because it is not economic, or fair on those who do pay. The argument that 'the demand is there' or 'I cant afford to buy a ticket at the moment' is not justification for facilitating it.

Demand is one thing - “entitlement“ is something else. There is a theme running through some posts that somehow it is someone else's (as in the
golf “elite“) responsibility to provide them with access to the game at a price they find acceptable.
Golf costs what it costs for a reason. It's not as if clubs are banking a fortune in profits, yet you get the whinges about “elites“ and “cosy cartels“.
Pure nonsense and a fair bit of begrudgery. Nobody owes anyone access to golf, any more than to any other leisure pursuit, whether in demand or not.

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 10:39pm

PARlance wrote: »

You're some man for your tangents when you want to wriggle out of something.
No part of my posts to you touched on Nama.

Just so you can have the last word....
Is the world flat?

Huh?
Wriggle out of what?
You brought in free market, NAMA makes that impossible for everyone from hotels to golf clubs. Do you disagree?

GreeBo · 27-08-2014 10:41pm

First Up wrote: »

Demand is one thing - “entitlement“ is something else. There is a theme running through some posts that somehow it is someone else's (as in the
golf “elite“) responsibility to provide them with access to the game at a price they find acceptable.
Golf costs what it costs for a reason. It's not as if clubs are banking a fortune in profits, yet you get the whinges about “elites“ and “cosy cartels“.
Pure nonsense and a fair bit of begrudgery. Nobody owes anyone access to golf, any more than to any other leisure pursuit, whether in demand or not.

That's such a Dublin thing to say....apparently.

New Rule for eligibility to Away Opens

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