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LGB Alliance

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    #32
    baby and crumble
    Registered Users Posts: 8,512 ✭✭✭baby and crumble


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    It's not irrelevant. It's to point out the absurdity of the position that no gay person could object to me saying that my gender and sexuality are undergoing a witch hunt by the media, or that straight men are highly discriminated against in society, solely because that person is gay. Because that follows from B&C's own logic.

    Actually, if it's genuinely your experience, then I couldn't argue with that personal experience. I'd perhaps discuss with you the idea of societal privilege (which is a an accepted sociological concept), which would suggest that as a straight white male, individually there's a high possibility you are discriminated against by certain other individuals but society at large is contracted in order to afford you far more privilege than I have as a cisgender white female in western society. I in turn have far more privilege, structurally, than a trans woman, or a black cisgender woman, or many others - because our society is built structurally on those concepts. Other cultures will have different groups which hold more privilege than others, obviously. But if you tell me your experience, I have no tools at my disposal to refute that.

    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Enough for what? I'm highly suspicious of that figure, would like accurate statistics, and don't believe they are.

    Can I ask how you would then propose collecting more accurate statistics on the topic? Surely asking the individuals involved is the most accurate method. Statistics, when it comes to human experience issues, can't really ever be objectively accurate - because humans are involved. All we can go on is to repeat the same data collection and analysis and see if it is similar in different age groups, locations, collection dates etc. If it remains stable over time and across demographics you can be fairly confident in it's accuracy.
    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    IOh I fully agree. The idea of a LGBT+ community to me is a bit ridiculous, but that's the position that gets pushed by the likes of Stonewall. And when they produce suspicious statistics that suggest the LGBT+ community is racist and discriminatory you thus all get tarred with the same brush.

    You're making a poor leap in statistics there. Because you see that 51% of POC have experienced racial abuse, you assume that that means that similar numbers of the non POC LGBT community are perpetrating that abuse. You also may be conflating 'discrimination and abuse' with physical danger or aggressive verbal abuse. All you have to do is look at the proliferation of the 'no fats no femmes no asians' trope that occurs on dating and hook-up apps.

    And frankly I would agree that a lot of the LGBT+ community is problematic in many ways, just like society at large is problematic for minorities. Just at the moment there is a pretty serious debate happening within the drag performer community about cultural appropriation of black and minority cultural artefacts for profit by white kings and queens. Being called out on it is vital, just like being called out of transphobia within and outside the community.


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I don't see how having a group which focuses on gay/bi issues is a problem because they don't deal with trans issues.

    Gay/bi issues aren't trans issues and vice versa.

    Why should the two be linked?


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    #34
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    Actually, if it's genuinely your experience, then I couldn't argue with that personal experience. I'd perhaps discuss with you the idea of societal privilege (which is a an accepted sociological concept), which would suggest that as a straight white male, individually there's a high possibility you are discriminated against by certain other individuals but society at large is contracted in order to afford you far more privilege than I have as a cisgender white female in western society. I in turn have far more privilege, structurally, than a trans woman, or a black cisgender woman, or many others - because our society is built structurally on those concepts. Other cultures will have different groups which hold more privilege than others, obviously. But if you tell me your experience, I have no tools at my disposal to refute that.

    But we're not talking about personal experience per-se. We're talking about extrapolating personal experience to "your group" in general, as if everyone has the same experience. And this, to me, is were the whole idea of societal privilege essentially falls apart. You either take people as individuals with individual experiences, or youb take people as a group with a group experience. You can't have it both ways.
    I mean, if I'm being discriminated at work and you are not, what use is it to me that "society at large is contracted in order to afford you (me) far more privilege". You're essentially telling me to just suck it up.

    But, here, this is probably a discussion for another day!


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    Can I ask how you would then propose collecting more accurate statistics on the topic? Surely asking the individuals involved is the most accurate method. Statistics, when it comes to human experience issues, can't really ever be objectively accurate - because humans are involved. All we can go on is to repeat the same data collection and analysis and see if it is similar in different age groups, locations, collection dates etc. If it remains stable over time and across demographics you can be fairly confident in it's accuracy.

    Yes to everything you've said, with the addition that I'd want a group that isn't an interest group to do the study. So, for example, Pew research or the CSO.

    baby and crumble wrote: »
    You're making a poor leap in statistics there. Because you see that 51% of POC have experienced racial abuse, you assume that that means that similar numbers of the non POC LGBT community are perpetrating that abuse.

    It would have to be a relatively high number of people, though point taken.
    baby and crumble wrote: »
    You also may be conflating 'discrimination and abuse' with physical danger or aggressive verbal abuse. All you have to do is look at the proliferation of the 'no fats no femmes no asians' trope that occurs on dating and hook-up apps.

    How is that discrimination? It's a dating/hook-up app, not a lets-be-friends app. If you aren't interested in femmes or asians then you are not interested in femmes or Asians. And this is what I mean about not truely believing those statistics.
    baby and crumble wrote: »
    And frankly I would agree that a lot of the LGBT+ community is problematic in many ways, just like society at large is problematic for minorities. Just at the moment there is a pretty serious debate happening within the drag performer community about cultural appropriation of black and minority cultural artefacts for profit by white kings and queens. Being called out on it is vital, just like being called out of transphobia within and outside the community.

    Look, you've been respective of me, and I apologise if I don't return that! But the idea of cultural appropriation to me is complete nonsense. It's bonkers! The gay community has no hope if that is the kind of infighting that is going on.


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    #35
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't see how having a group which focuses on gay/bi issues is a problem because they don't deal with trans issues.

    Gay/bi issues aren't trans issues and vice versa.

    Why should the two be linked?

    It's not that they don't deal with trans issues. The real issue is that they actively try to damage trans rights. There is absolutely no issue with an lgb group that is pro lgb. This one isn't merely pro lgb. It is actively anti trans and transphobic.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #36
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It's not that they don't deal with trans issues. The real issue is that they actively try to damage trans rights. There is absolutely no issue with an lgb group that is pro lgb. This one isn't merely pro lgb. It is actively anti trans and transphobic.

    I'm far from an expert on this issue but from what I can see, it is a group that is actively trying to distance themselves from transgenderism because of the historic inclusion of Transgenderism in issues that are LGB focused.

    Is not wanting transgenderism being associated with your group transphobic?

    Not wanting anything to do with trans is hardly anti-trans?


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    #37
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,847 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    I think Katie Hopkins is backing them....that should tell you all you need to know.


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    #38
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gmisk wrote: »
    I think Katie Hopkins is backing them....that should tell you all you need to know.

    Not a fan of Hopkins in the slightest but to oppose something just because you don't like someone who supports it is a little silly.

    Alex Jones is pretty sure that Epstein didn't commit suicide. So is that wrong because Alex Jones thinks so?

    I mean, Piers Morgan supports Arsenal. Doesn't mean that people shouldn't support Arsenal for fear of being aligned with him.


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    #39
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,847 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Not a fan of Hopkins in the slightest but to oppose something just because you don't like someone who supports it is a little silly.

    Alex Jones is pretty sure that Epstein didn't commit suicide. So is that wrong because Alex Jones thinks so?

    I mean, Piers Morgan supports Arsenal. Doesn't mean that people shouldn't support Arsenal for fear of being aligned with him.
    In your opinion, I can't say I agree with anything Katie Hopkins says. Supporting arsenal is not a comparison...if you want to talk about piers Morgan what do you think about his views on gender etc, he wants to identify as a penguin..
    Without the effort of trans people imo (Stonewall etc) there wouldn't be the same momentum behind LGBT rights.
    They are probably the most demonized group under LGBT umbrella. The couple of trans people I have met are nothing but decent but they seem to be a real target currently whether it is with regards the use of bathrooms, terf groups or LGB alliance.


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    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gmisk wrote: »
    In your opinion, I can't say I agree with anything Katie Hopkins says. Supporting arsenal is not a comparison...if you want to talk about piers Morgan what do you think about his views on gender etc, he wants to identify as a penguin..
    Without the effort of trans people imo (Stonewall etc) there wouldn't be the same momentum behind LGBT rights.
    They are probably the most demonized group under LGBT umbrella. The couple of trans people I have met are nothing but decent but they seem to be a real target currently whether it is with regards the use of bathrooms, terf groups or LGB alliance.

    With regards Piers Morgan, I can't see any possible reason that anyone can have for not supporting his right to identify as a penguin. I mean, it is obvious that he is taking the piss but if you are willing to put forward the idea that people can self identify as whatever they choose, have the same rights and access to facilities that are exclusive to the opposite sex, you can't in all honesty deny him his right to choose what he wants to be identified as.

    I know trans people myself (two actually if you want to be specific) and they are decent people. I don't have an issue with people living how they want. But on the flip side, I can see why groups of people who have nothing to do with transgenderism would not want to be associated with them. I don't see how that can be described as transphobic.


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    #41
    gmisk
    Registered Users Posts: 31,847 ✭✭✭✭gmisk


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    With regards Piers Morgan, I can't see any possible reason that anyone can have for not supporting his right to identify as a penguin. I mean, it is obvious that he is taking the piss but if you are willing to put forward the idea that people can self identify as whatever they choose, have the same rights and access to facilities that are exclusive to the opposite sex, you can't in all honesty deny him his right to choose what he wants to be identified as.

    I know trans people myself (two actually if you want to be specific) and they are decent people. I don't have an issue with people living how they want. But on the flip side, I can see why groups of people who have nothing to do with transgenderism would not want to be associated with them. I don't see how that can be described as transphobic.
    As you have just said...he is taking the piss...maybe talk to your two trans friends and try and see things from there point of view, how they likely struggled with there gender for years or how they might have been treated by society over the years, then maybe you might come to the conclusion that wanting to live as a penguin and being trans are not in any way comparable.

    I am a gay man but I have no issue with the T in LGBT as I stated already they did a lot of work with regards LGBT rights and have a tough enough time as it is without LGB people rounding on them for no good reason.

    Jameela Jamil put it a lot better than I can.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/29/jameela-jamil-anti-trans-activists-lgb-alliance-ally-twitter-the-good-place/amp/

    Maybe do some digging into the group and what they stand for and the members?
    One of the speakers at there first event was Miranda Yardley (who is trans...you couldn't make it up) who has been permanently banned from twitter, has a history of harassing trans people online and who doxxed a trans child...lovely.


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    #42
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm far from an expert on this issue but from what I can see, it is a group that is actively trying to distance themselves from transgenderism because of the historic inclusion of Transgenderism in issues that are LGB focused.

    Is not wanting transgenderism being associated with your group transphobic?

    Not wanting anything to do with trans is hardly anti-trans?

    Actively working to oppose trans rights is anti trans and transphobic

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    gmisk wrote: »
    As you have just said...he is taking the piss...maybe talk to your two trans friends and try and see things from there point of view, how they likely struggled with there gender for years or how they might have been treated by society over the years, then maybe you might come to the conclusion that wanting to live as a penguin and being trans are not in any way comparable.

    I am a gay man but I have no issue with the T in LGBT as I stated already they did a lot of work with regards LGBT rights and have a tough enough time as it is without LGB people rounding on them for no good reason.

    Jameela Jamil put it a lot better than I can.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/29/jameela-jamil-anti-trans-activists-lgb-alliance-ally-twitter-the-good-place/amp/


    The fact that he is taking the piss doesn't/shouldn't negate him of his right to identify as whatever he wants, if self determination is what you believe in.

    I have spoken in depth to the two trans people I know. And yes, they have suffered hardships because of how they identify. But that still doesn't mean that because of their identification, that people must accept them and treat them as they wish to be treated.

    I mean, in an ideal world, yes, everyone could just be who they want to be and everyone would accept it, but the rights of people to identify as they wish, shouldn't supersede the rights of people who choose to ignore that request. You can't force people to accept your "reality" when biology contradicts it.

    Anyway, I have gone off topic so to bring it back, I can't see why distancing yourself away from a group who you share nothing in common with (apart from discrimination) is considered "phobic".


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    #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Actively working to oppose trans rights is anti trans and transphobic

    Distancing yourself from a group and highlighting what you perceive to be issues with that group is hardly phobic.


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    #45
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Distancing yourself from a group and highlighting what you perceive to be issues with that group is hardly phobic.

    I thought you didn't know much about this issue? Yet suddenly you know all about this group?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I thought you didn't know much about this issue? Yet suddenly you know all about this group?

    Christ Joey, I am going on the link provided where Jamilia Jamil points out that they bring up some points about dangerous trans women.

    I never claimed to know a lot about the group.

    I see my input is obviously not "on brand" so I will leave you to it.


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    #47
    L.Jenkins
    Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 19,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭L.Jenkins


    Deleted User wrote: »
    With regards Piers Morgan, I can't see any possible reason that anyone can have for not supporting his right to identify as a penguin. I mean, it is obvious that he is taking the piss but if you are willing to put forward the idea that people can self identify as whatever they choose, have the same rights and access to facilities that are exclusive to the opposite sex, you can't in all honesty deny him his right to choose what he wants to be identified as.

    I know trans people myself (two actually if you want to be specific) and they are decent people. I don't have an issue with people living how they want. But on the flip side, I can see why groups of people who have nothing to do with transgenderism would not want to be associated with them. I don't see how that can be described as transphobic.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The fact that he is taking the piss doesn't/shouldn't negate him of his right to identify as whatever he wants, if self determination is what you believe in.

    I have spoken in depth to the two trans people I know. And yes, they have suffered hardships because of how they identify. But that still doesn't mean that because of their identification, that people must accept them and treat them as they wish to be treated.

    I mean, in an ideal world, yes, everyone could just be who they want to be and everyone would accept it, but the rights of people to identify as they wish, shouldn't supersede the rights of people who choose to ignore that request. You can't force people to accept your "reality" when biology contradicts it.

    Anyway, I have gone off topic so to bring it back, I can't see why distancing yourself away from a group who you share nothing in common with (apart from discrimination) is considered "phobic".
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Christ Joey, I am going on the link provided where Jamilia Jamil points out that they bring up some points about dangerous trans women.

    I never claimed to know a lot about the group.

    I see my input is obviously not "on brand" so I will leave you to it.

    If you claim to not know a lot about a group, then educate yourself. It's that simple. One more utterance on the issue and you'll take a well needed break.


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    #48
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    gmisk wrote: »
    As you have just said...he is taking the piss...maybe talk to your two trans friends and try and see things from there point of view, how they likely struggled with there gender for years or how they might have been treated by society over the years, then maybe you might come to the conclusion that wanting to live as a penguin and being trans are not in any way comparable.

    I am a gay man but I have no issue with the T in LGBT as I stated already they did a lot of work with regards LGBT rights and have a tough enough time as it is without LGB people rounding on them for no good reason.

    Jameela Jamil put it a lot better than I can.
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/10/29/jameela-jamil-anti-trans-activists-lgb-alliance-ally-twitter-the-good-place/amp/

    Maybe do some digging into the group and what they stand for and the members?
    One of the speakers at there first event was Miranda Yardley (who is trans...you couldn't make it up) who has been permanently banned from twitter, has a history of harassing trans people online and who doxxed a trans child...lovely.

    Piers Morgan takes the piss out of people that claim to be two-spirit, gender-fluid, gender non-binary etc. not trans-people. Trans people identify as the sex opposite to their birth-sex. You can't be gender fluid and trans, that negates what to be trans is.

    And this is why trans-people have come in for ridicule, because the two issues are always conflated, particularly by trans "activists" themselves, people who I have in the most part very little respect for as I believe they are fully self-serving and rarely have trans people needs n their minds.


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    #49
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    L.Jenkins wrote: »
    If you claim to not know a lot about a group, then educate yourself. It's that simple. One more utterance on the issue and you'll take a well needed break.

    So what, if he educates himself he still can't have an opinion?


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    #50
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,226 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mod

    Please do not discuss moderator actions on thread as it derails the discussion. If you have a query you can pm any of the mods

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #51
    _Godot_
    Registered Users Posts: 877 ✭✭✭_Godot_


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I don't see how having a group which focuses on gay/bi issues is a problem because they don't deal with trans issues.

    Gay/bi issues aren't trans issues and vice versa.

    Why should the two be linked?


    There are gay and bi trans people too, y'know.


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    #52
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    OP here. I have been contacted by PM by gay members who were glad that I raised this issue as they also agree. But I was told not to bother trying to raise these issues in this forum as there is little room for discussion.

    As I created the post, I feel obliged to address the very few arguments that have been made in this thread against the formation of the LGB group. The main argument seems to be that the whole group should be collective. Why then, are there various Trans only groups?

    The only other argument I can see is that people don't understand why LGB should split from the T. They ridicule the notion that lesbians are being forced to accept the notion of having to accept a female penis - aka the cotton ceiling. I can only assume that you are not aware of this phenomenon, and if that is the case, you can PM me and I will provide you with the damning evidence.

    I am not alone in my worries about what is happening here. My genuine transexual friends are also aghast at how this trend is removing safeguards and is opening the door for abusive males to gaslight the community into allowing them have access to females and children. People who champion this are most definitely not on the right side of history, and we will look back and judge you.


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    #53
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,628 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Yeah I believe you now when thousands wouldn't.


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    #54
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Yeah I believe you now when thousands wouldn't.

    Excuse me, are you accusing me of lying? You're a mod. Have a look at my PMs.


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    #55
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    Keep at it pretending that you are on the right side of history. You are in an increasingly diminishing echo chamber. We see you for what you are. A small group of misogynistic males. Stay away from our kids please.


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    #56
    Dante7
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,543 ✭✭✭Dante7


    And while I'm ****in at it, I'm in Gran Canaria at the moment. Spent the second night in a wonderful gay bar in the Yumba centre It was brilliant. Brought my young daughter and she bought a pride flag. And then as we left, we passed a bloke with dog's head bondage gear on. That's nothing to do with LGBT, that's fetishism. Keep that **** away from my kids.


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    #57
    p1akuw47h5r3it
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,001 ✭✭✭p1akuw47h5r3it


    Dante7 wrote: »
    And while I'm ****in at it, I'm in Gran Canaria at the moment. Spent the second night in a wonderful gay bar in the Yumba centre It was brilliant. Brought my young daughter and she bought a pride flag. And then as we left, we passed a bloke with dog's head bondage gear on. That's nothing to do with LGBT, that's fetishism. Keep that **** away from my kids.
    Well to be fair. It was a bar at night time. Might have been a fetish night nearby. These exist in Ireland too and not just for gay people.


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    #58
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,814 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Dante7 wrote: »
    Keep at it pretending that you are on the right side of history. You are in an increasingly diminishing echo chamber. We see you for what you are. A small group of misogynistic males. Stay away from our kids please.

    Mod

    Clearly this is in breach of the forum.charter

    It breaks part 2 - an expectation of mature, civil, constructive discussion
    It breaks part 7 - it is clearly trolling
    It breaks part 8 - Suggesting lgbt people are child abusers and women haters
    It breaks part 14 - not treating lgbt people with dignity and respect

    1 day forum ban and dont post in the thread when you return

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #59
    Ten of Swords
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,226 CMod ✭✭✭✭Ten of Swords


    Mod

    A reminder for everyone. Publishing the contents of a PM is against the rules unless you have the consent of both the sender and recipient. Redacting the username is not sufficient.

    This is a sitewide rule

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/faq.php?faq=bie_faq_guidelines#faq_dont_publish_pms

    Moderator: Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual & Transgender, Vegan & Vegetarian

    Category Moderator: Social & Fun



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    #60
    isohon
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭isohon


    Dante7 wrote: »
    And while I'm ****in at it, I'm in Gran Canaria at the moment. Spent the second night in a wonderful gay bar in the Yumba centre It was brilliant. Brought my young daughter and she bought a pride flag. And then as we left, we passed a bloke with dog's head bondage gear on. That's nothing to do with LGBT, that's fetishism. Keep that **** away from my kids.

    You brought your daughter to a gay bar, in the Yumbo Centre... which holds the annual Maspalomas Fetish Week, (in October btw) and now you are shocked that she witnessed someone in fetish gear. Some questions arise? What age is your daughter? Why are you 'bringing' her to a gay bar? Why do you think it is a stranger's responsibility to protect your daughter from a mask?

    Oh and not being hung up on 'fetishes' is actually part of LGBT existence. Not everyone, not every LGBT person will agree but weirdly its hard to gain traction in the LGBT movement telling consenting adults what they can and cannot do.


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    #61
    isohon
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭isohon


    DanDan6592 wrote: »
    Well to be fair. It was a bar at night time. Might have been a fetish night nearby. These exist in Ireland too and not just for gay people.

    I was in Torremolinos last year, and two doors down from my hotel, next to a lovely quaint seaside shop selling sandcastle buckets and spades was a STRAIGHT swingers club. Complete with electric signage with some interesting displays.

    Dante's dog whistling is obvious to everyone.


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